{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6401", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6401, "subject": "S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "messages": 17, "voices": 9, "first": "2013-07-21T13:13:11+00:00", "last": "2013-07-28T01:29:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-21T13:13:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing\nparallels in pacing, \"feel\" between the New Sun and SRD's \"Neveron\" stories\nand books. Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "F.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,\nscribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being\npresented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.)\nBlogging at The Lensman's Children (\nhttp://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<50CCBC8F17964348851B8637974B8CC9@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-07-25T10:12:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Fred Kiesche" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing \nparallels\nin pacing, \"feel\" between the New Sun and SRD's \"Neveron\" stories and \nbooks.\nOr are both just influenced by (for example) Borges?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Common interests seem more likely. Delaney was mostly writing before \nWolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since \nthe '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, though the Tor review \nsuggested it is for the strong of stomach.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<00c901ce892b$739581a0$5ac084e0$@de>", "from": { "name": "Nessun Saprà", "address": "nessun-sapra at web.de" }, "date": "2013-07-25T11:38:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<50CCBC8F17964348851B8637974B8CC9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In \"A Few Points About Knife Throwing\" GW makes a reference to Delany’s\n\"melody machete\". \n\nNessuno\n\n\n-----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht-----\nVon: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] Im\nAuftrag von Gerry Quinn\nGesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 12:12\nAn: The Urth Mailing List\nBetreff: Re: (urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories\n\n\n\nFrom: Fred Kiesche" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing \nparallels in pacing, \"feel\" between the New Sun and SRD's \"Neveron\" \nstories and books.\nOr are both just influenced by (for example) Borges?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Common interests seem more likely. Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe\n- I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the\n'80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, though the Tor review suggested\nit is for the strong of stomach.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1374759152.71144.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-07-25T13:32:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<50CCBC8F17964348851B8637974B8CC9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Fred Kiesche" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing parallels\nin pacing, \"feel\" between the New Sun and SRD's \"Neveron\" stories and books.\nOr are both just influenced by (for example) Borges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Common interests seem more likely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though the influence of Proust and other French classics seems possible and might have a lot to do with similarities of pacing and feel. Also, Wolfe has said he admires Nabokov, and Delany started his latest novel (see below) with a quotation from Nabokov. Another common interest or influence is the pulps.\n\n\nIn some ways, Wolfe is the anti-Delany, though. I don't think that Wolfe has any interest in the structuralist and post-structuralist literary theory that's a basic part of Delany's worldview, or that Delany has any interest in the religious and mystical ideas that are a basic part of Wolfe's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point, though theNeveryon (Nev?r?on) books were after TBotNS. (I'm pointing out the spelling with the y because it's \"never\" + \"yon\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, I might have to read that.\n\nAm I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of Bodies, of Cities_?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to Wikipedia, but with a \"citation needed\" tag, he's said he wanted it to straddle the lines between literature, science fiction, and pornography.\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-25T13:53:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<1374759152.71144.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Am I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of\nBodies, of Cities_?\"\n\nI'd love to see it as well, but is it actually moving forward?\n\nAs for the sequence of writing (Delany before Wolfe?), I recall getting\nvolumes of Damon Knight's ORBIT anthology with both appearing (maybe not\nthe same volume, but definitely in the same couple of years). And I recall\nreading both in the NEBULA collections of the same era.\n\nDelany probably moved into novels sooner (and faster), but production there\nhas tailed off as he did more and more teaching.\n\nReligion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other works\nfeel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, but he sure\ncan talk the talk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n > From: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Fred Kiesche" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing\nparallels\nin pacing, \"feel\" between the New Sun and SRD's \"Neveron\" stories and\nbooks.\nOr are both just influenced by (for example) Borges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Common interests seem more likely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Though the influence of Proust and other French classics seems possible\nand might have a lot to do with similarities of pacing and feel. Also,\nWolfe has said he admires Nabokov, and Delany started his latest novel (see\nbelow) with a quotation from Nabokov. Another common interest or influence\nis the pulps.\n\nIn some ways, Wolfe is the anti-Delany, though. I don't think that Wolfe\nhas any interest in the structuralist and post-structuralist literary\ntheory that's a basic part of Delany's worldview, or that Delany has any\ninterest in the religious and mystical ideas that are a basic part of\nWolfe's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good point, though the Neveryon (Nev?r?on) books were after TBotNS. (I'm\npointing out the spelling with the y because it's \"never\" + \"yon\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the\n'80s. He has a new SF novel out recently," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, I might have to read that.\n\nAm I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of\nBodies, of Cities_?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to Wikipedia, but with a \"citation needed\" tag, he's said he\nwanted it to straddle the lines between literature, science fiction, and\npornography.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-07-25T14:52:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<50CCBC8F17964348851B8637974B8CC9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah his last is a bit cropo-mucophagic. Delany is a good writer who writes about some nasty stuff. Not sure if his later output is worth the effort, but Dark Reflections was at least a little but less pornographic than his other late stuff. I guess I don't see neveryon as New Sun like because of the absence of religious obsession, the thing that so captivated me about New Sun. I think Delany is more interested in the \"traditional\" (oxymoron) postmodern look at power relationships and sociological constructions. Haven't read Neveryon in many years though,mostly I remember a bridge and male prostitution ... \nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 25, 2013, at 3:12 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Fred Kiesche" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing parallels\nin pacing, \"feel\" between the New Sun and SRD's \"Neveron\" stories and books.\nOr are both just influenced by (for example) Borges?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Common interests seem more likely. Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach.\n\n- Gerry Quinn \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8998d246f93f319a012651bbf753a293.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-25T22:33:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<50CCBC8F17964348851B8637974B8CC9@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, July 25, 2013 05:12, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nDelaney was mostly writing before\nWolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn\nsince\nthe '80s." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Often, both at the same time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1374808458.44016.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-07-26T03:14:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Fred Kiesche \nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Am I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of Bodies, of Cities_?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd love to see it as well, but is it actually moving forward?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that I know of. I was just hoping." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " As for the sequence of writing (Delany before Wolfe?), I recall getting\n volumes of Damon Knight's ORBIT anthology with both appearing (maybe \nnot the same volume, but definitely in the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "same couple of years). And I recall reading both in the NEBULA collections of the same era." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If\n you look at the ISFDB, you'll see that aside from those college stories\n that Wolfe forgot, Delany published several years earlier, was \nnominated for awards several years earlier, and won his first award \nseveral years earlier. Certainly they've overlapped a lot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Delany probably moved into novels sooner (and faster), but production \nthere has tailed off as he did more and more teaching.\n\nDelany's\n first publication at the ISFDB was a novel (_The Jewels of Aptor_ in 1962). And is \nit maybe vice-versa--did he do more and more teaching because his \nliterary production was falling off?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, but he sure \ncan talk the talk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, except maybe in occasional moods.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F2D1A7.3000108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-26T19:44:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<1374808458.44016.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other \nworks feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, \nbut he sure can talk the talk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I very, \nvery strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, except maybe \nin occasional moods.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and language \nand symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other novels are \npreoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\nI don't see such a person as being interested in religion except as \nanother form of power and another source of language. But I could be wrong." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-26T19:49:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<51F2D1A7.3000108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in religion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\n\n\n >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other\nworks feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, but\nhe sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I very,\nvery strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, except maybe in\noccasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman\n\n\n\nI think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and language\nand symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other novels are\npreoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\nI don't see such a person as being interested in religion except as\nanother form of power and another source of language. But I could be wrong.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F2D3ED.4060407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-26T19:54:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's that. ;)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDelany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in \nreligion.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-27T17:39:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "<51F2D3ED.4060407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is also a member of NAMBLA." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWell, there's that. ;)\n\n\nOn 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in\nreligion.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-27T18:33:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote:\nHe is also a member of NAMBLA.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, there's that. ;)\n\n\nOn 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in\nreligion.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-27T19:11:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the difference?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nNo, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He is also a member of NAMBLA.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, there's that. ;)\n\n\nOn 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in\nreligion.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-27T19:20:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The difference is that he's not that particular kind of pervert, but\npolitically supports their right to exist. His argument (which I do _not_\nagree with) is that man-boy love was acceptable in society much longer than\nit's been unacceptable, and that it became unacceptable when it was no\nlonger beneficial to the economic ruling classes.\n\nAs I said: A Marxist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, aaron wrote:\nWhat's the difference?\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He is also a member of NAMBLA.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-27T19:44:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually have enjoyed some of Delany's work. I am not one to allow an\nartist's personal life to affect my opinion of their art, but some of the\nthings Delany writes about are so far beyond my experience that I cannot\nrelate. Other subjects he chooses to focus on are disgusting, and I think\nthis is his aim. The NAMBLA thing is repulsive to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nThe difference is that he's not that particular kind of pervert, but\npolitically supports their right to exist. His argument (which I do _not_\nagree with) is that man-boy love was acceptable in society much longer than\nit's been unacceptable, and that it became unacceptable when it was no\nlonger beneficial to the economic ruling classes.\n\nAs I said: A Marxist.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the difference?\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "He is also a member of NAMBLA.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Well, there's that. ;)\n\n\nOn 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in\nreligion.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n ______________________________**_________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-28T01:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) S.R. Delany's \"Neveron\" Stories", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Delany has been fascinated since early days with the idea of \"artist as\noutlaw,\" and he sometimes takes this to extremes in his own writing. That\nsaid, he has gone too far for me to follow at least twice (HOGG and THE MAD\nMAN)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, aaron wrote:\nI actually have enjoyed some of Delany's work. I am not one to allow an\nartist's personal life to affect my opinion of their art, but some of the\nthings Delany writes about are so far beyond my experience that I cannot\nrelate. Other subjects he chooses to focus on are disgusting, and I think\nthis is his aim. The NAMBLA thing is repulsive to me.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The difference is that he's not that particular kind of pervert, but\npolitically supports their right to exist. His argument (which I do _not_\nagree with) is that man-boy love was acceptable in society much longer than\nit's been unacceptable, and that it became unacceptable when it was no\nlonger beneficial to the economic ruling classes.\n\nAs I said: A Marxist.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What's the difference?\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them.\n\n\nOn Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "He is also a member of NAMBLA.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Well, there's that. ;)\n\n\nOn 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in\nreligion.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff <\ndstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote:\n\n\n On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": " >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and\n other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany\n doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk.\n\n I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I\n very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk,\n except maybe in occasional moods.\n\n Jerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": " I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and\n language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other\n novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex).\n\n I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except\n as another form of power and another source of language. But I\n could be wrong.\n\n ______________________________**_________________\n Urth Mailing List" } ] } ] }