# S.R. Delany's "Neveron" Stories *The Urth list — 17 messages, 9 voices, 21 Jul 2013* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Fred Kiesche *21 Jul 2013, 13:13* Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing parallels in pacing, "feel" between the New Sun and SRD's "Neveron" stories and books. Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges? ``` F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children ( http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/). ``` --- ### Gerry Quinn *25 Jul 2013, 10:12 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* From: Fred Kiesche > Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing > parallels > in pacing, "feel" between the New Sun and SRD's "Neveron" stories and > books. > Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges? Common interests seem more likely. Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Nessun Saprà *25 Jul 2013, 11:38 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* In "A Few Points About Knife Throwing" GW makes a reference to Delany’s "melody machete". Nessuno -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] Im Auftrag von Gerry Quinn Gesendet: Donnerstag, 25. Juli 2013 12:12 An: The Urth Mailing List Betreff: Re: (urth) S.R. Delany's "Neveron" Stories From: Fred Kiesche > Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing > parallels in pacing, "feel" between the New Sun and SRD's "Neveron" > stories and books. > Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges? Common interests seem more likely. Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach. - Gerry Quinn --- ### Jerry Friedman *25 Jul 2013, 13:32 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* > From: Gerry Quinn > From: Fred Kiesche >> Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing parallels >> in pacing, "feel" between the New Sun and SRD's "Neveron" stories and books. >> Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges? > Common interests seem more likely. Though the influence of Proust and other French classics seems possible and might have a lot to do with similarities of pacing and feel. Also, Wolfe has said he admires Nabokov, and Delany started his latest novel (see below) with a quotation from Nabokov. Another common interest or influence is the pulps. In some ways, Wolfe is the anti-Delany, though. I don't think that Wolfe has any interest in the structuralist and post-structuralist literary theory that's a basic part of Delany's worldview, or that Delany has any interest in the religious and mystical ideas that are a basic part of Wolfe's. > Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - Good point, though theNeveryon (Nev?r?on) books were after TBotNS. (I'm pointing out the spelling with the y because it's "never" + "yon".) > I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, Thanks, I might have to read that. Am I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of Bodies, of Cities_? > though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach. According to Wikipedia, but with a "citation needed" tag, he's said he wanted it to straddle the lines between literature, science fiction, and pornography. Jerry Friedman --- ### Fred Kiesche *25 Jul 2013, 13:53 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* "Am I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of Bodies, of Cities_?" I'd love to see it as well, but is it actually moving forward? As for the sequence of writing (Delany before Wolfe?), I recall getting volumes of Damon Knight's ORBIT anthology with both appearing (maybe not the same volume, but definitely in the same couple of years). And I recall reading both in the NEBULA collections of the same era. Delany probably moved into novels sooner (and faster), but production there has tailed off as he did more and more teaching. Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. > On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:32 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > From: Gerry Quinn >> From: Fred Kiesche >>> Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing >>> parallels >>> in pacing, "feel" between the New Sun and SRD's "Neveron" stories and >>> books. >>> Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges? >> Common interests seem more likely. > Though the influence of Proust and other French classics seems possible > and might have a lot to do with similarities of pacing and feel. Also, > Wolfe has said he admires Nabokov, and Delany started his latest novel (see > below) with a quotation from Nabokov. Another common interest or influence > is the pulps. > > In some ways, Wolfe is the anti-Delany, though. I don't think that Wolfe > has any interest in the structuralist and post-structuralist literary > theory that's a basic part of Delany's worldview, or that Delany has any > interest in the religious and mystical ideas that are a basic part of > Wolfe's. >> Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - > Good point, though the Neveryon (Nev?r?on) books were after TBotNS. (I'm > pointing out the spelling with the y because it's "never" + "yon".) >> I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the >> '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, > Thanks, I might have to read that. > > Am I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of > Bodies, of Cities_? >> though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach. > According to Wikipedia, but with a "citation needed" tag, he's said he > wanted it to straddle the lines between literature, science fiction, and > pornography. > > Jerry Friedman > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *25 Jul 2013, 14:52 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* Yeah his last is a bit cropo-mucophagic. Delany is a good writer who writes about some nasty stuff. Not sure if his later output is worth the effort, but Dark Reflections was at least a little but less pornographic than his other late stuff. I guess I don't see neveryon as New Sun like because of the absence of religious obsession, the thing that so captivated me about New Sun. I think Delany is more interested in the "traditional" (oxymoron) postmodern look at power relationships and sociological constructions. Haven't read Neveryon in many years though,mostly I remember a bridge and male prostitution ... Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 25, 2013, at 3:12 AM, "Gerry Quinn" wrote: > > > From: Fred Kiesche >> Anybody know if Samuel R. Delany is a fan of Gene Wolfe? I'm seeing parallels >> in pacing, "feel" between the New Sun and SRD's "Neveron" stories and books. >> Or are both just influenced by (for example) Borges? > Common interests seem more likely. Delaney was mostly writing before Wolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn since the '80s. He has a new SF novel out recently, though the Tor review suggested it is for the strong of stomach. > > - Gerry Quinn > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *25 Jul 2013, 22:33 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* > On Thu, July 25, 2013 05:12, Gerry Quinn wrote: > Delaney was mostly writing before > Wolfe - I think he's been writing mostly autobiographies and gay porn > since > the '80s. Often, both at the same time. ``` Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com > A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab < http://www.tamut.edu/cil > ``` --- ### Jerry Friedman *26 Jul 2013, 03:14 · in reply to Fred Kiesche* > From: Fred Kiesche > Jerry Friedman wrote: >> Am I the only person here waiting for _The Splendor, the Misery, of Bodies, of Cities_? > I'd love to see it as well, but is it actually moving forward? Not that I know of. I was just hoping. As for the sequence of writing (Delany before Wolfe?), I recall getting volumes of Damon Knight's ORBIT anthology with both appearing (maybe not the same volume, but definitely in the > same couple of years). And I recall reading both in the NEBULA collections of the same era. If you look at the ISFDB, you'll see that aside from those college stories that Wolfe forgot, Delany published several years earlier, was nominated for awards several years earlier, and won his first award several years earlier. Certainly they've overlapped a lot. Delany probably moved into novels sooner (and faster), but production there has tailed off as he did more and more teaching. Delany's first publication at the ISFDB was a novel (_The Jewels of Aptor_ in 1962). And is it maybe vice-versa--did he do more and more teaching because his literary production was falling off? > Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, but he sure > can talk the talk. I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, except maybe in occasional moods. Jerry Friedman --- ### David Stockhoff *26 Jul 2013, 19:44 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* > On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >> Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other >> works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, >> but he sure can talk the talk. > I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I very, > very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, except maybe > in occasional moods. > > Jerry Friedman I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except as another form of power and another source of language. But I could be wrong. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *26 Jul 2013, 19:49 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in religion. > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > > On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: > > > > >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and other > works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany doesn't believe, but > he sure can talk the talk. > > I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I very, > very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, except maybe in > occasional moods. > > Jerry Friedman > > > > I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and language > and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other novels are > preoccupied with this idea (and sex). > > I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except as > another form of power and another source of language. But I could be wrong. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *26 Jul 2013, 19:54 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Well, there's that. ;) > On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in > religion. > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff > > wrote: > > > On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >> >> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >> except maybe in occasional moods. >> >> Jerry Friedman > I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and > language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other > novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). > > I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except > as another form of power and another source of language. But I > could be wrong. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### aaron *27 Jul 2013, 17:39 · in reply to David Stockhoff* He is also a member of NAMBLA. > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Well, there's that. ;) > > > On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in >> religion. >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff > dstockhoff at verizon.net**>> wrote: >> >> >> On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >>> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >>> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >>> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >>> >>> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >>> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >>> except maybe in occasional moods. >>> >>> Jerry Friedman >> I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and >> language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other >> novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). >> >> I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except >> as another form of power and another source of language. But I >> could be wrong. >> >> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *27 Jul 2013, 18:33 · in reply to aaron* No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them. > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote: > He is also a member of NAMBLA. > > > On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: >> Well, there's that. ;) >> >> >> On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>> Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in >>> religion. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff < >>> dstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >>>> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >>>> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >>>> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >>>> >>>> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >>>> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >>>> except maybe in occasional moods. >>>> >>>> Jerry Friedman >>> I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and >>> language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other >>> novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). >>> >>> I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except >>> as another form of power and another source of language. But I >>> could be wrong. >>> >>> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### aaron *27 Jul 2013, 19:11 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* What's the difference? > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them. > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote: >> He is also a member of NAMBLA. >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: >>> Well, there's that. ;) >>> >>> >>> On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>>> Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in >>>> religion. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff < >>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >>>>> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >>>>> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >>>>> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >>>>> >>>>> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >>>>> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >>>>> except maybe in occasional moods. >>>>> >>>>> Jerry Friedman >>>> I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and >>>> language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other >>>> novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). >>>> >>>> I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except >>>> as another form of power and another source of language. But I >>>> could be wrong. >>>> >>>> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *27 Jul 2013, 19:20 · in reply to aaron* The difference is that he's not that particular kind of pervert, but politically supports their right to exist. His argument (which I do _not_ agree with) is that man-boy love was acceptable in society much longer than it's been unacceptable, and that it became unacceptable when it was no longer beneficial to the economic ruling classes. As I said: A Marxist. > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, aaron wrote: > What's the difference? > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them. >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote: >>> He is also a member of NAMBLA. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff >> wrote: >>>> Well, there's that. ;) >>>> >>>> >>>> On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>>>> Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in >>>>> religion. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff < >>>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >>>>>> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >>>>>> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >>>>>> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >>>>>> >>>>>> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >>>>>> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >>>>>> except maybe in occasional moods. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jerry Friedman >>>>> I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and >>>>> language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other >>>>> novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). >>>>> >>>>> I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except >>>>> as another form of power and another source of language. But I >>>>> could be wrong. >>>>> >>>>> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### aaron *27 Jul 2013, 19:44 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* I actually have enjoyed some of Delany's work. I am not one to allow an artist's personal life to affect my opinion of their art, but some of the things Delany writes about are so far beyond my experience that I cannot relate. Other subjects he chooses to focus on are disgusting, and I think this is his aim. The NAMBLA thing is repulsive to me. > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > The difference is that he's not that particular kind of pervert, but > politically supports their right to exist. His argument (which I do _not_ > agree with) is that man-boy love was acceptable in society much longer than > it's been unacceptable, and that it became unacceptable when it was no > longer beneficial to the economic ruling classes. > > As I said: A Marxist. > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, aaron wrote: >> What's the difference? >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>> No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them. >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote: >>>> He is also a member of NAMBLA. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff < >>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: >>>>> Well, there's that. ;) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>>>>> Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in >>>>>> religion. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff < >>>>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >>>>>>> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >>>>>>> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >>>>>>> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >>>>>>> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >>>>>>> except maybe in occasional moods. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jerry Friedman >>>>>> I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and >>>>>> language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other >>>>>> novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except >>>>>> as another form of power and another source of language. But I >>>>>> could be wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *28 Jul 2013, 01:29 · in reply to aaron* Delany has been fascinated since early days with the idea of "artist as outlaw," and he sometimes takes this to extremes in his own writing. That said, he has gone too far for me to follow at least twice (HOGG and THE MAD MAN). > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:44 PM, aaron wrote: > I actually have enjoyed some of Delany's work. I am not one to allow an > artist's personal life to affect my opinion of their art, but some of the > things Delany writes about are so far beyond my experience that I cannot > relate. Other subjects he chooses to focus on are disgusting, and I think > this is his aim. The NAMBLA thing is repulsive to me. > > > On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 3:20 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> The difference is that he's not that particular kind of pervert, but >> politically supports their right to exist. His argument (which I do _not_ >> agree with) is that man-boy love was acceptable in society much longer than >> it's been unacceptable, and that it became unacceptable when it was no >> longer beneficial to the economic ruling classes. >> >> As I said: A Marxist. >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 12:11 PM, aaron wrote: >>> What's the difference? >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 2:33 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>>> No, he is not, though he has spoken in support of them. >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sat, Jul 27, 2013 at 10:39 AM, aaron wrote: >>>>> He is also a member of NAMBLA. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 3:54 PM, David Stockhoff < >>>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: >>>>>> Well, there's that. ;) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 7/26/2013 3:49 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >>>>>>> Delany is (or at least was) a Marxist with very little interest in >>>>>>> religion. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 12:44 PM, David Stockhoff < >>>>>>> dstockhoff at verizon.net > wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 7/25/2013 11:14 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >>>>>>>> >Religion vs. non-religion, I don't know, passages from NOVA and >>>>>>>> other works feel pretty damn religious to me. Maybe Delany >>>>>>>> doesn't believe, but he sure can talk the talk. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I believe he can do that. Maybe I was too sure of myself, but I >>>>>>>> very, very strongly suspect that he simply dismisses the talk, >>>>>>>> except maybe in occasional moods. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jerry Friedman >>>>>>> I think Delany is concerned with, among other things, words and >>>>>>> language and symbols as a form of power. Neveryona and some other >>>>>>> novels are preoccupied with this idea (and sex). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I don't see such a person as being interested in religion except >>>>>>> as another form of power and another source of language. But I >>>>>>> could be wrong. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ______________________________**_________________ >>>>>>> Urth Mailing List ---