{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6402", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6402, "subject": "Time, Not Cloning", "messages": 38, "voices": 7, "first": "2013-07-25T15:13:59+00:00", "last": "2013-08-06T14:43:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<20130725151359.14401.qmail@server281.com>", "from": { "name": "Brian", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2013-07-25T15:13:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The discussion of cloning a while back was of interest to me, because I\nalways thought that Severian's replacement bodies were pulled from other\ntimelines, where he hadn't died--and in fact considered most of the \"magic\"\nin the books to be combinations of technologies, including quite a bit of\ntime manipulation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-26T02:40:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<20130725151359.14401.qmail@server281.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, July 25, 2013 10:13, Brian wrote:\nThe discussion of cloning a while back was of interest to me, because I\nalways thought that Severian's replacement bodies were pulled from other\ntimelines, where he hadn't died--and in fact considered most of the\n\"magic\"\nin the books to be combinations of technologies, including quite a bit of\ntime manipulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but....\n\n\nThe Yesodis do seem to have machinery that spans time, and they can use\nlong-forgotten Urth technology across times, like the projection of\naquastors and eidolons, but Severian seems able to perceive across time\nand to bend the time-like accumulation of entropy by some natural or at\nleast inborn gift, rather than by gadget.\n\nYou suggestion that the replacement bodies come from other timelines'\nSeverians is interesting, though it raises the questions of why they\ndidn't just go with the survivor entirely, and why doesn't a struggle with\nthe other Severian ensue?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20130729135412.1764.qmail@server281.com>", "from": { "name": "Brian", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T13:54:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff,\n\nI meant that when a Severian died (drowned, for instance), the Yesodis\nreplaced him by pulling a Severian from another time line. If they had\nmanipulated \"their\" time line to \"undo\" the death, there would not be\nmultiple corpses. And their is no \"other Severian\" to struggle with ,\nbecause a new Severian is only obtained when one dies.\n++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Yes, but.... The Yesodis do seem to have\nmachinery that spans time, and they can use long-forgotten Urth technology\nacross times, like the projection of aquastors and eidolons, but Severian\nseems able to perceive across time and to bend the time-like accumulation\nof entropy by some natural or at least inborn gift, rather than by gadget.\n You suggestion that the replacement bodies come from other timelines'\nSeverians is interesting, though it raises the questions of why they\ndidn't just go with the survivor entirely, and why doesn't a struggle with\nthe other Severian ensue? -- Jeff Wilson - < [LINK:" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T15:13:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<20130729135412.1764.qmail@server281.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, July 29, 2013 08:54, Brian wrote:\nJeff,\n\nI meant that when a Severian died (drowned, for instance), the Yesodis\nreplaced him by pulling a Severian from another time line. If they had\nmanipulated \"their\" time line to \"undo\" the death, there would not be\nmultiple corpses. And their is no \"other Severian\" to struggle with ,\nbecause a new Severian is only obtained when one dies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still not seeing why a particular timeline is privileged above the\nothers and made the recipient of their Severians when he keeps dying. Do\nthe other timelines not have Yesodis watching over them? If it's the same\ngang of Yesodis watching over several Urthly timelines, why do they need\nto move a live Severian from Urth A to replace the one that died on Urth B\n— Why don't they just concentrate on keeping the one from Urth A alive\nthere, since he is in the identical circumstances until that moment?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<20130729160149.22602.qmail@server281.com>", "from": { "name": "Brian", "address": "brian at studiobl.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T16:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't honestly know how time would work for the Yesodis. I'm imagining a\nsituation where you are in your \"prime\" timeline when Severian dies on you.\n So you get a replacement from a thread where he hasn't died. Why not\nswitch yourself to that thread? I don't know. Maybe your current timeline\nis right where you want it except for the unfortunate demise of Severian.\nSo you borrow a cup of sugar from your neighbor and bring it back to your\nhouse, not move into your neighbor's house because they don't happen to be\nout of sugar. I would accept cloning, except there seems to be a lot of\ntime related technology in the books. Vertical motion through certain\nspaces seems to cause travel through time, the Last House seems to be a\nvery \"time-volatile\" locale, the displays in the House Absolute Garden\nwhere you seem to be in two times at once, etc. I suppose the prostitutes\n(boy I can't remember any of the exact terms from the books) imply cloning,\nand that's enough to allow for cloning to be the method by which Severian\nis replaced when necessary.\n\n\n \t-------Original Message-------\n From: Jeff Wilson \n To: Brian , The Urth Mailing List\n\n Subject: Re: (urth) Time, Not Cloning\n Sent: 29 Jul '13 15:13" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Mon, July 29, 2013 08:54, Brian wrote:\nJeff,\n\nI meant that when a Severian died (drowned, for instance), the Yesodis\nreplaced him by pulling a Severian from another time line. If they had\nmanipulated \"their\" time line to \"undo\" the death, there would not be\nmultiple corpses. And their is no \"other Severian\" to struggle with ,\nbecause a new Severian is only obtained when one dies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I'm still not seeing why a particular timeline is privileged above the\n others and made the recipient of their Severians when he keeps dying. Do\n the other timelines not have Yesodis watching over them? If it's the same\n gang of Yesodis watching over several Urthly timelines, why do they need\n to move a live Severian from Urth A to replace the one that died on Urth B\n ? Why don't they just concentrate on keeping the one from Urth A alive\n there, since he is in the identical circumstances until that moment?\n\n --\n Jeff Wilson - < [LINK: compose.php?to=jwilson at clueland.com]\njwilson at clueland.com >\n A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n < [LINK: http://www.tamut.edu/cil] http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T18:31:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<20130729160149.22602.qmail@server281.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, July 29, 2013 11:01, Brian wrote:\nI suppose the prostitutes\n(boy I can't remember any of the exact terms from the books) imply\ncloning,\nand that's enough to allow for cloning to be the method by which Severian\nis replaced when necessary." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The girls at the bawdy house called Echopraxia are said to be khaibits,\nwhich is supposed to be the Egyptian word for \"shadow\", and echopraxia is\na medical term for the involuntary repetition of another's actions, so\nyeah, clones.\n\nBut the Yesodis do seem have the ability to make aquastors (duplicates of\nbeings) without borrowing from other timelines, we see aquastors of\nTriskele and Master Malrubius appear and disappear and dissolve into their\ncomponent energies, and then at the trial in URTH they pull up aquastors\nof people who wouldn't have an alternate timeline counterpart, like Master\nAsh." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "david.duffy at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2013-07-30T03:17:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<20130729160149.22602.qmail@server281.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 30 Jul 2013, Brian wrote:\nI don't honestly know how time would work for the Yesodis. I'm \nimagining a situation where you are in your \"prime\" timeline when \nSeverian dies on you. So you get a replacement from a thread where he \nhasn't died. Why not switch yourself to that thread?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible Wolfe was recalling the model in Blish's _Jack of Eagles_, \nwhere the \"single\" main timeline we perceive which is actually a \nsuperposition dominated by the most likely histories. So it's not quite \nwhat I think of as a \"full\" many worlds where all outcomes are equally \nreal, and any actions you perform are reversed in the other branch.\n\n\nMINOR SPOILER\n\n\n\nLike Master Ash, there is one episode where a component timeline fades as \nits probability falls, as a result of actions of the protagonist that \ncause the whole ensemble to shift in his favoured direction." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T13:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brian: I meant that when a Severian died (drowned, for instance), the Yesodis\nreplaced him by pulling a Severian from another time line." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, Malrubius explains that he and Triskele, as eidolons, were created from\nSeverian's memories. Later when Severian dies on the Ship and in Apu Punchau's\ntomb, he is brought back to life as an eidolon via his own dying brain's \nmemories. \n\nIn these cases, Severian can actually see his own dead body nearby, but I don't\nthink the explanation is that the new body was drawn from another timeline or \ncloned, per se. When Malrubius and Triskele are done, they disappear into silvery\nshards. Later, Severian the eidolon worries that might happen to him. B, F and O\nexplain that the unstable matter his eidolon body is composed of will slowly \ngain real substance as he eats and drinks and replaces the unstable matter with\nstable matter.\n\nPerhaps the unstable matter is drawn from another universe/timeline or something\nbut I think Severian's own mind is the pattern source for the eidolon body.\n\nFWIW, I don't think Severian drowns in the beginning of the story. I think an \nundine, knowing what he will become, rescues him to curry favor. Given that \nJuturna manages to survive on to the oceans of Ushas, I think it worked.\n\nI think Severian dies some other times, like from the avern wound and from that\ndisruptor beam that hits him at the Citadel during Typhon's rule. There is no\ndead Severian body in these cases so we may assume he unconsciously resurrects\nhimself via the power of the Claw (whose power ultimately derive from Severian\nhimself).\n\nFor me, the ultimate theme of all this is that Severian is in actuality a (pagan) \ngod. He has most of the attributes we'd expect: immortality, superhuman powers, \nability to time travel, etc. We might expect that a god have more wisdom, but hey. \nHe is a nascent god. Godlike wisdom will come in time, of which he has an unlimited \nsupply. Severian starts only with a presentiment of his future but who knows where \nhe will end up in the knowledge department. The story doesn't give us his end.\n\n(I'm not as familiar with Latro, but aren't there some who think he also is \nunknowingly a pagan god, specifically Mars?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1375279436.34759.YahooMailNeo@web84505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-31T14:03:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 9:48 AM\nSubject: (urth) Time, Not Cloning\n\n\n\n\nPerhaps the unstable matter is drawn from another universe/timeline or something\nbut I think Severian's own mind is the pattern source for the eidolon body.\n\n\n\nYes. My assumption has always been that this unstable matter comes from Yesod, i.e., a \"higher\" universe, since the Otherworld/Land of the Dead is where ghosts and such come from, and since Yesod obviously controls it this matter. But a ghost could come from anywhere if the gods will it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<33948f67e74d72525c109b300928403a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T17:42:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<1375279436.34759.YahooMailNeo@web84505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 09:03, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nYes. My assumption has always been that this unstable matter comes from\nYesod, i.e., a \"higher\" universe, since the Otherworld/Land of the Dead\nis where ghosts and such come from, and since Yesod obviously controls it\nthis matter. But a ghost could come from anywhere if the gods will it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and no; the Yesod-source supposition is true at least some of the\ntime; Apheta explains Yesod is naturally all energy and the only material\nbodies there are the ones the Yesodis make from that energy - though the\nonly visible energy in Yesod is the light from those bodies they have made\n(or will make), including what appear to be artificial stars and planets,\nand what is seen through peepholes into Briah.\n\n\nBut I recall from Cyriaca's uncle's story that a form of eidolon was\ninvented on Urth at some point, where the machines entrusted with the care\nof mankind were able to give everyone an \"invisible friend\", and\napparently the machines went a bit further before they broke down. I think\nthis, along the great gathering of books and technology into the citadel\nwill support a new hypothesis on the nature of Holy Katherine, that she is\na simple eidolon/aquastor projected for the Torturer's benefit by some of\nthe remaining salvaged machinery, explaining why she is the same age each\nyear, survives beheading, and is placidly compliant." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T18:58:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<33948f67e74d72525c109b300928403a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff:>>Yes. My assumption has always been that this unstable \nmatter comes from Yesod, i.e., a \"higher\" universe, since the Otherworld/Land \nof the Dead is where ghosts and such come from, and since Yesod obviously \ncontrols it this matter. But a ghost could come from anywhere if the gods will it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this idea David. I could see matter from Yesod appearing silvery in Briah.\nReminds me of Asimov's The Gods Themselves, where matter from a higher universe\nis unstable in a lower universe because strong nuclear force is of different \nstrength. Plus it fits in with what I think is a general plan by Wolfe in BotNS \nto put a scientific slant on mythology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- the Yesod-source supposition is true at least some of the\ntime; Apheta explains Yesod is naturally all energy and the only material\nbodies there are the ones the Yesodis make from that energy - though the\nonly visible energy in Yesod is the light from those bodies they have made\n(or will make), including what appear to be artificial stars and planets,\nand what is seen through peepholes into Briah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm intersting. I'm not a physicist, but can't energy be defined as unstable\nmatter, in some Einsteinian sense?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But I recall from Cyriaca's uncle's story that a form of eidolon was\ninvented on Urth at some point, where the machines entrusted with the care\nof mankind were able to give everyone an \"invisible friend\", and\napparently the machines went a bit further before they broke down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm yes. Surely a \"guardian angel\" reference. And in BotNS, don't angels\ncome from Yesod? Malrubius, Triskele and B, F and O (well maybe not O)\nseem like they might fit the bill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this, along the great gathering of books and technology into the citadel\nwill support a new hypothesis on the nature of Holy Katherine, that she is\na simple eidolon/aquastor projected for the Torturer's benefit by some of\nthe remaining salvaged machinery, explaining why she is the same age each\nyear, survives beheading, and is placidly compliant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this idea, Jeff. Especially since I am basically all in on the idea that\nthe Holy Katharine maid (and her doppelgangers found here and there in the story)\ndo represent Severian's mother in some fashion. Since Severian seems inexplicably\nendowed with immortality and superpowers, it makes some sense that he might have \na mother who is composed of the stuff of angels.\n\nI guess a year's worth of eating and drinking Urth food would be enough ingestion of\nstable matter for the maid to not shatter into silver shards when she is beheaded. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1375301136.92185.YahooMailNeo@web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-31T20:05:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<33948f67e74d72525c109b300928403a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Wednesday, July 31, 2013 1:42 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Time, Not Cloning\n\n\n\nOn Wed, July 31, 2013 09:03, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes. My assumption has always been that this unstable matter comes from\nYesod, i.e., a \"higher\" universe, since the Otherworld/Land of the Dead\nis where ghosts and such come from, and since Yesod obviously controls it\nthis matter. But a ghost could come from anywhere if the gods will it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes and no; the Yesod-source supposition is true at least some of the\ntime; Apheta explains Yesod is naturally all energy and the only material\nbodies there are the ones the Yesodis make from that energy - though the\nonly visible energy in Yesod is the light from those bodies they have made\n(or will make), including what appear to be artificial stars and planets,\nand what is seen through peepholes into Briah.\n\n\nBut I recall from Cyriaca's uncle's story that a form of eidolon was\ninvented on Urth at some point, where the machines entrusted with the care\nof mankind were able to give everyone an \"invisible friend\", and\napparently the machines went a bit further before they broke down. I think\nthis, along the great gathering of books and technology into the citadel\nwill support a new hypothesis on the nature of Holy Katherine, that she is\na simple eidolon/aquastor projected for the Torturer's benefit by some of\nthe remaining salvaged machinery, explaining why she is the same age each\nyear, survives beheading, and is placidly compliant.\n\n\nJeff, that just made my head asplode.\n\nThe St. Katherine figure's identity/reality is one of the most difficult puzzles in BNS. I recall that someone once proposed clones to explain it, but this works much, much better. Thanks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8edd037b94d46b01a32dca194b1406dd.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T20:54:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 13:58, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff:>>Yes. My assumption has always been that this unstable\nmatter comes from Yesod, i.e., a \"higher\" universe, since the\nOtherworld/Land\nof the Dead is where ghosts and such come from, and since Yesod obviously\ncontrols it this matter. But a ghost could come from anywhere if the gods\nwill it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like this idea David. I could see matter from Yesod appearing silvery in\nBriah.\nReminds me of Asimov's The Gods Themselves, where matter from a higher\nuniverse\nis unstable in a lower universe because strong nuclear force is of\ndifferent\nstrength. Plus it fits in with what I think is a general plan by Wolfe in\nBotNS\nto put a scientific slant on mythology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- the Yesod-source supposition is true at least some of the\ntime; Apheta explains Yesod is naturally all energy and the only material\nbodies there are the ones the Yesodis make from that energy - though the\nonly visible energy in Yesod is the light from those bodies they have\nmade\n(or will make), including what appear to be artificial stars and planets,\nand what is seen through peepholes into Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm intersting. I'm not a physicist, but can't energy be defined as\nunstable\nmatter, in some Einsteinian sense?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mass is sticky and inert energy, sure, but it makes more thematic sense to\nme that matter is not native to Yesod but can exist there, since that\nmakes it more spiritual. There allegedly is a more spiritual plane still\nabove Yesod where the Hieros went after entirely discarding their material\nforms, where Yesdis cannot yet follow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess a year's worth of eating and drinking Urth food would be enough\ningestion of\nstable matter for the maid to not shatter into silver shards when she is\nbeheaded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think she exists at all during the year, but is projected anew\neach feastday. While she is there, Aquastor-Katherine may not disperse\nfrom the loss of her head, because that is the entire purpose of her\ncasting, in either sense of the word. I'd like to include a persuasive way\nto connect the her appearance to Sev's mother's and/or the Contessa-woman\nat the Path of Air, but it may be a coincidence.\n\nI think the link may be the Yesodis' working backward through Urthly time,\nbecause the night of Sev's elevation is also the first posthumous\napparition of Aquastor-Malrubius, and Sev experiences an unknown ill\nfeeling about the time he is to play-behead Katherine, perhaps a sign of\nhis mind and body being probed." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F98D2C.9040402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-31T22:18:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<8edd037b94d46b01a32dca194b1406dd.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2013 4:54 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI don't think she exists at all during the year, but is projected anew\neach feastday. While she is there, Aquastor-Katherine may not disperse\nfrom the loss of her head, because that is the entire purpose of her\ncasting, in either sense of the word. I'd like to include a persuasive way\nto connect the her appearance to Sev's mother's and/or the Contessa-woman\nat the Path of Air, but it may be a coincidence.\n\nI think the link may be the Yesodis' working backward through Urthly time,\nbecause the night of Sev's elevation is also the first posthumous\napparition of Aquastor-Malrubius, and Sev experiences an unknown ill\nfeeling about the time he is to play-behead Katherine, perhaps a sign of\nhis mind and body being probed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's real-time mother and the projection machine are separated by \nchiliads at least. I guess the unanswerable question is whether the \nmachine can be used to project new eidolons (when the old ones wear \nout?) or is stuck playing the same old 8-track tapes forever. That, or \nhow many times can a person be cloned over millennia? Otherwise, barring \ntime travel, it must be a coincidence.\n\nDo you propose that the Yesodis made the ancient Katherine from Sev's \nmom? I wonder if going back to the Katherine story that preceded BNS \nmight help here." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6d63bd52073fe95ab98044f705ac22ff.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T23:03:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<51F98D2C.9040402@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 17:18, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSeverian's real-time mother and the projection machine are separated by\nchiliads at least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1. Not necessarily, there are any number of still-functional ancient\nmachines around the Citadel and the House Absolute and other places, plus\n\"new\" installations overseen by Typhon and Inire that still do their\nthing.\n\n2. Whenever the projector is, Malrubius and Triskele are within range, and\nthey only lived 5-15 years later than Sev's birth mother.\n\n3. We see Aquastor-Malrubius debark from a ship newly arrived from the\nfuture via the Corridors of Time. Either the projector reaches back from\nfuture eras, or there's a projector on the ship that can reach eras the\nship is in at the moment.\n\n4. FB&O show up in person at the Stone Town in the dawn era and are able\nto project an Aquastor-Severian that immediately departs and lasts into\nthe Ushas era, which are about as far apart in time as Urthly locations\nget in BOTNS. So, either they have a projector that ranges many chiliads\ninto the future they can never return to, or there's something like\naquastor cell towers in time where projections can be passed along the\nepochs separating their destination from their projector." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5f8092379ac2ad9fa725e8ad8941dc7a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T23:12:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<1375301136.92185.YahooMailNeo@web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 15:05, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nBut I recall from Cyriaca's uncle's story that a form of eidolon was\ninvented on Urth at some point, where the machines entrusted with the\ncare\nof mankind were able to give everyone an \"invisible friend\", and\napparently the machines went a bit further before they broke down. I\nthink\nthis, along the great gathering of books and technology into the citadel\nwill support a new hypothesis on the nature of Holy Katherine, that she\nis\na simple eidolon/aquastor projected for the Torturer's benefit by some of\nthe remaining salvaged machinery, explaining why she is the same age each\nyear, survives beheading, and is placidly compliant.\n\n\nJeff, that just made my head asplode." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's my shot at making it implode: I meant to write \"the torturers'\nbenefit\" above, but perhaps the Increate guided my hand. If Holy Katherine\n*is* an eidolon form Sev's mind, then she *is* a shadow of Severian The\nTorturer's, and is the title character of the first book!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F99C44.9050506@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-31T23:22:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<6d63bd52073fe95ab98044f705ac22ff.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2013 7:03 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Wed, July 31, 2013 17:18, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian's real-time mother and the projection machine are separated by\nchiliads at least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. Not necessarily, there are any number of still-functional ancient\nmachines around the Citadel and the House Absolute and other places, plus\n\"new\" installations overseen by Typhon and Inire that still do their\nthing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You mean that are capable pf projecting NEW eidolons? That's what I \nmeant. Katherine is not exactly likely to be \"new\"---she's part of an \nancient ritual. But if the machines can project new eidolons, Katherine \ncan be switched out at intervals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Whenever the projector is, Malrubius and Triskele are within range, and\nthey only lived 5-15 years later than Sev's birth mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you assume they are projected by Urth projectors, or Yesodi?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. We see Aquastor-Malrubius debark from a ship newly arrived from the\nfuture via the Corridors of Time. Either the projector reaches back from\nfuture eras, or there's a projector on the ship that can reach eras the\nship is in at the moment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That was always my assumption about the Yesodi projectors." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. FB&O show up in person at the Stone Town in the dawn era and are able\nto project an Aquastor-Severian that immediately departs and lasts into\nthe Ushas era, which are about as far apart in time as Urthly locations\nget in BOTNS. So, either they have a projector that ranges many chiliads\ninto the future they can never return to, or there's something like\naquastor cell towers in time where projections can be passed along the\nepochs separating their destination from their projector." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-08-01T01:00:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<51F99C44.9050506@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 18:22, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 7/31/2013 7:03 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 17:18, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian's real-time mother and the projection machine are separated by\nchiliads at least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1. Not necessarily, there are any number of still-functional ancient\nmachines around the Citadel and the House Absolute and other places,\nplus\n\"new\" installations overseen by Typhon and Inire that still do their\nthing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You mean that are capable pf projecting NEW eidolons? That's what I\nmeant. Katherine is not exactly likely to be \"new\"---she's part of an\nancient ritual. But if the machines can project new eidolons, Katherine\ncan be switched out at intervals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible the ancient machine is set to project an eidolon of what the\naudience expects to appear, so of course an archetypal Katherine is\nproduced when the Brothers are gathered in the ruined chapel to see her\nappear. I don't recall anything that would require projectors to use\npre-recorded images, though it is possible the misty phantasms in\nBaldanders' castle are the result of an incompletely-repaired projector\nthat is laboring to project it's last imprinted aquastors that dissolve as\nfast as they materialize, thus the mist and the inhuman shapes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2. Whenever the projector is, Malrubius and Triskele are within range,\nand\nthey only lived 5-15 years later than Sev's birth mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you assume they are projected by Urth projectors, or Yesodi?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They could be either at different times. The archipelago dedicated to\nUrth's galaxy is said to be short on resources and Aquastor-Malrubius\nremarks that the ship he arrives on was not easily obtained IIRC. It makes\nsense that Inire and henchmen might be using ancient Urthly gear where\nthey can. If the projector was made by thinking machines to communicate\nwith thinking humans by thought, it may be that the projectors can pull\neidolons from one another's memory stores as well as from living minds, so\nMalrubuius and Triskele could indeed be passed from one projector to\nanother, like the cell tower idea I mentioned.\n\nIt also strikes me that the curious apes that Severian sees watching him\nare readily identified by him and I don't recall him encountering any\nunknown apes other than the man-apes in the mine at Saltus. This makes me\nthink he is familiar with them from the BeastKeepers' tower and their\nmurals and dead piles, the same as Triskele. So perhaps Inire et all uses\nthe ancient projetor(s) at the citadel to make living ape aquastors to spy\non Sev. They are not exactly covert, but presumably much less outsanding\nthan a three-legged-dog or an old man dressed as a torturer, and apes'\nhands are about as good as human in adjusting other old machinery for\nwhatever nefarious or blessed purpose." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F9C38A.5010008@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-08-01T02:10:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2013 9:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Wed, July 31, 2013 18:22, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/31/2013 7:03 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, July 31, 2013 17:18, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian's real-time mother and the projection machine are separated by\nchiliads at least." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1. Not necessarily, there are any number of still-functional ancient\nmachines around the Citadel and the House Absolute and other places,\nplus\n\"new\" installations overseen by Typhon and Inire that still do their\nthing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You mean that are capable pf projecting NEW eidolons? That's what I\nmeant. Katherine is not exactly likely to be \"new\"---she's part of an\nancient ritual. But if the machines can project new eidolons, Katherine\ncan be switched out at intervals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible the ancient machine is set to project an eidolon of what the\naudience expects to appear, so of course an archetypal Katherine is\nproduced when the Brothers are gathered in the ruined chapel to see her\nappear. I don't recall anything that would require projectors to use\npre-recorded images, though it is possible the misty phantasms in\nBaldanders' castle are the result of an incompletely-repaired projector\nthat is laboring to project it's last imprinted aquastors that dissolve as\nfast as they materialize, thus the mist and the inhuman shapes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "i see. I guess I was thinking that Urth machines would be cruder than \nYesodi machines. But this makes more sense, and that they would \"read\" \nminds as well. Katherine could well change over the years and no one \nwould notice, but there would be a certain conservatism to her \nappearance. This would also make her more like a goddess of the Whorl \nand less like the Wizard of Oz, i.e., fake, since she would actually \nlive in the Brothers' imaginations.\n\nIf Severian has come before, as well as time-looped, has he influenced \nKatherine more than his fair share, explaining why she resembles his mother?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2. Whenever the projector is, Malrubius and Triskele are within range,\nand\nthey only lived 5-15 years later than Sev's birth mother." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you assume they are projected by Urth projectors, or Yesodi?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They could be either at different times. The archipelago dedicated to\nUrth's galaxy is said to be short on resources and Aquastor-Malrubius\nremarks that the ship he arrives on was not easily obtained IIRC. It makes\nsense that Inire and henchmen might be using ancient Urthly gear where\nthey can. If the projector was made by thinking machines to communicate\nwith thinking humans by thought, it may be that the projectors can pull\neidolons from one another's memory stores as well as from living minds, so\nMalrubuius and Triskele could indeed be passed from one projector to\nanother, like the cell tower idea I mentioned.\n\nIt also strikes me that the curious apes that Severian sees watching him\nare readily identified by him and I don't recall him encountering any\nunknown apes other than the man-apes in the mine at Saltus. This makes me\nthink he is familiar with them from the BeastKeepers' tower and their\nmurals and dead piles, the same as Triskele. So perhaps Inire et all uses\nthe ancient projetor(s) at the citadel to make living ape aquastors to spy\non Sev. They are not exactly covert, but presumably much less outsanding\nthan a three-legged-dog or an old man dressed as a torturer, and apes'\nhands are about as good as human in adjusting other old machinery for\nwhatever nefarious or blessed purpose." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this certainly seems a rich vein." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-01T11:35:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<51F9C38A.5010008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Mass is sticky and inert energy, sure, but it makes more thematic \nsense to me that matter is not native to Yesod but can exist there, since that\nmakes it more spiritual. There allegedly is a more spiritual plane still\nabove Yesod where the Hieros went after entirely discarding their material\nforms, where Yesdis cannot yet follow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Damn, you are on such a roll. Brilliant connection. I agree that Yesod and the\nconcept of ever reborn universes implies spiritual progression. But I think you\nare showing that Wolfe uses matter and energy as metaphors for the balance \nof material and spiritual in the nature of things. I like it a lot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's my shot at making it implode: I meant to write \"the torturers'\nbenefit\" above, but perhaps the Increate guided my hand. If Holy Katherine\n*is* an eidolon form Sev's mind, then she *is* a shadow of Severian The\nTorturer's, and is the title character of the first book!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh crap. Now you've given me the head explosion. Yes, tangentially, if \nthe Katharine maid is copied from Severian in any way she might qualify\nfor the title: Shadow Of The Torturer. But...\n\nThere is a more direct and literal interpretaton of that title. \"Khaibit\"\nis Arabic for \"shadow\". More specifically, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"the shadow of a soul, deemed to be a spiritual essence that was capable of freeing \nitself at the moment of death.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The concept is more from Coptic beliefs than Islam; a better fit within Wolfe's\ngnostic paradigm.\n\nI've known that definition of \"khaibit\" for a while but I never connected it with the \ntitle of the first book. Most likely others have and I was just being dense. Not that \nSeverian being a clone of some sort (biological material, energy-based and/or spiritual) \nis a new idea. \n\nBut I had never thought about how explicitly Severian's clone status is given to us by \nWolfe in the title of that first book. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<51FA5042.3000805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-08-01T12:10:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2013 7:35 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: Mass is sticky and inert energy, sure, but it makes more thematic\nsense to me that matter is not native to Yesod but can exist there, since that\nmakes it more spiritual. There allegedly is a more spiritual plane still\nabove Yesod where the Hieros went after entirely discarding their material\nforms, where Yesdis cannot yet follow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Damn, you are on such a roll. Brilliant connection. I agree that Yesod and the\nconcept of ever reborn universes implies spiritual progression. But I think you\nare showing that Wolfe uses matter and energy as metaphors for the balance\nof material and spiritual in the nature of things. I like it a lot." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's my shot at making it implode: I meant to write \"the torturers'\nbenefit\" above, but perhaps the Increate guided my hand. If Holy Katherine\n*is* an eidolon form Sev's mind, then she *is* a shadow of Severian The\nTorturer's, and is the title character of the first book!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh crap. Now you've given me the head explosion. Yes, tangentially, if\nthe Katharine maid is copied from Severian in any way she might qualify\nfor the title: Shadow Of The Torturer. But...\n\nThere is a more direct and literal interpretaton of that title. \"Khaibit\"\nis Arabic for \"shadow\". More specifically," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"the shadow of a soul, deemed to be a spiritual essence that was capable of freeing\nitself at the moment of death.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The concept is more from Coptic beliefs than Islam; a better fit within Wolfe's\ngnostic paradigm.\n\nI've known that definition of \"khaibit\" for a while but I never connected it with the\ntitle of the first book. Most likely others have and I was just being dense. Not that\nSeverian being a clone of some sort (biological material, energy-based and/or spiritual)\nis a new idea.\n\nBut I had never thought about how explicitly Severian's clone status is given to us by\nWolfe in the title of that first book. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<677205BC-C575-4B0F-BB42-635851FC1896@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-08-01T16:52:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<51F9C38A.5010008@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are some interesting things in thinking of the generation of aquastors here. I haven't read new sun in a long long time, but the idea of Katherine as an eidolon is kind of interesting. The elevation ceremony does have the trappings of a low tech mummers charade, though - and that passage through potential neck resistance has always been troubling. \n\nIn baldander's lair we have the big baby and, more disturbingly, an eviscerated girl who reminds Severian's of the pale skinned dark haired thin waisted river girl Pia. Despite Borski's aureate claims about paternity and relationships, which I never bought, I always fancied that Severian's sister would resemble him. The watery story of fish and frog and the Moses like basket seemed to me a potential story about that separation, and in light of thinking of Katherine as eidolon or aquastor it is interesting that the body of that woman who makes sev think of Pia should be there in Baldander's castle. That is the first question I ever asked Wolfe, way back in 2000 or thereabouts. Is Pia the sister? He responded only with interesting question, and then said something about possibilities, the most postmodern response he ever gave me. The eviscerated woman who looks like her bothers me- but eidolons in Baldander's lair ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-01T18:12:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<677205BC-C575-4B0F-BB42-635851FC1896@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Lee, I my not quite follow how \"freeing itself at the moment \nof death\" fits in here. What about Severian frees itself at the moment of death? I \nsuppose since Severian dies many times, this should be discernible. \nOr is it more just that a khaibit is specifically the shadow, i.e., \ncopy, of a soul? That would be enough for the clone theory. But we also \nknow that Severian is a copy of himself. If he does drown on page 1, \nthen the first book is indeed about his shadow.\nWhen is his first known \"resurrection\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say that when Severian dies on the Ship and as Apu Punchau, and he\nis resurrected as an eidolon from his own dying mind/memories, that is as\nclose to the Coptic definition of a khaibit that we could hope to have.\n\nWhat complicates things for me is that those two incidences occur in UotNS, \nwhich written after the original tetralogy. It might only have occurred later \nto Wolfe that the eidolon creation thingie could work as a cloning device for\nSeverian (or Catherine).\n\nSince being \"grown from cells\" is mentioned in the old Autarch's explanation of \nkhaibits, I have to think Wolfe originally meant \"khaibit\" to mean more exclusively \nthe biological cloning of an individual. And since the cloned prostitutes in House \nAzure are alive at the same time as their donor mistreses, \"khaibit\" must mean, \nas you suggest, only the copying of a soul, and not requiring death. \n\nThere are stories in Egyptian and Greek (not to mention Judaic) mythology which \ninvolved reproduction occurring via body parts (both from the dead and alive). Perhaps\nby invoking the \"khaibit\" concept, Wolfe is only saying, \"hey, when the ancients told\nstories about Osiris or Zeus or Adam and Eve, it was their way of describing what\nwe call cloning\". (or, if we include Tzadkiel, gemmulation budding)\n\nSince Severian talks at length about the hypothetical \"first Severian\" I have to \nguess we really are reading a story about the second one. I find that two of five \ncoffins being open in Severian's mausoleum to be a literary (at least) symbol of \nthat. So if you ask when was (our) Severian first resurrected, I'd say at birth. \nHow that jibes with Ouen and Catherine is something of a mystery.\n\nI don't think he drowned on page 1. I believe what Juturna says, that she saved him then. \nJust as she helped him find his sword in the Lake of Birds. I further think that Severian's\nlater ability to breathe underwater is via the efforts of Juturna, just as for Baldanders. It \nis a pointed reference to the legend of the \"mermaid's kiss\" which was said to confer that\nunderwater breathing ability to drowning sailors.\n\nWolfe's emphasis on biological cloning in the original tetralogy doesn't bother me. It\nmakes sense to me. I think that in writing BotNS, he was still very much in the dark \nplace from whence 5HoC was spawned. Number Five reminds me so very much of a Blade Runner\nreplicant in outlook on life. The movie came too late but perhaps Wolfe was influenced by\nthe P.K. Dick story?\n\nAnd of course there seems to be much of Wolfe in Number Five and Severian. I think somewhere\nin an interview I read that Wolfe felt alone and cut off or disconnected in life as a youngster, \nhaving to do with him being an only child. I really think he felt like a clone or something. \nHappily Wolfe's life outlook seemed to have improved. Perhaps in direct correlation to the \nimprovement in his literary career. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-01T18:25:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini- In baldander's lair we have the big baby and, more disturbingly, \nan eviscerated girl who reminds Severian's of the pale skinned dark haired thin \nwaisted river girl Pia. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think she is darker skinned, making her resemblance to Severian less. I think she\nand all those people are meant to represent the darker skinned natives we'd find\naround Lake Titicaca. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Despite Borski's aureate claims about paternity and relationships, which I never bought, \nI always fancied that Severian's sister would resemble him. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I think Borsky got carried away with that. Is Dorcas' gold hair enough to establish\na family relationship with everyone who has gold hair? Actually, my guess is that Agia\nand Jolenta ARE Severian's family. But that big baby sex toy in Baldanders' bed? Makes \nno sense that I can see. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The eviscerated woman who looks like her bothers me- but eidolons in Baldander's lair ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, \"eidolons\"? Or \"khaibits\" (clones)? There's the rub. I think clones work better in the\ncontext of the story. Baldanders is a very biological, non-spiritual kind of guy. Eidolons\nhave too much of a spiritual nature, as was mentioned in the earlier discussion in this\nthread. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<339a6ffb5f012245f4f24010e052d5dc.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-08-01T18:33:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, August 1, 2013 13:12, Lee Berman wrote:\nPerhaps\nby invoking the \"khaibit\" concept, Wolfe is only saying, \"hey, when the\nancients told\nstories about Osiris or Zeus or Adam and Eve, it was their way of\ndescribing what\nwe call cloning\". (or, if we include Tzadkiel, gemmulation budding)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "BTW, I cannot find \"khaibit\" nor \"kaibit\" at OED.com." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Since Severian talks at length about the hypothetical \"first Severian\" I\nhave to\nguess we really are reading a story about the second one. I find that two\nof five\ncoffins being open in Severian's mausoleum to be a literary (at least)\nsymbol of\nthat. So if you ask when was (our) Severian first resurrected, I'd say at\nbirth.\nHow that jibes with Ouen and Catherine is something of a mystery." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the coffins are connected to the succession of Severians, who or what\nis in the other two closed coffins?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51FAB611.60004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-08-01T19:25:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2013 2:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSince being \"grown from cells\" is mentioned in the old Autarch's explanation of\nkhaibits, I have to think Wolfe originally meant \"khaibit\" to mean more exclusively\nthe biological cloning of an individual. And since the cloned prostitutes in House\nAzure are alive at the same time as their donor mistreses, \"khaibit\" must mean,\nas you suggest, only the copying of a soul, and not requiring death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes me wonder what happens to khaibits when their originals die. \nWhat happened to Thecla's when she died---was she freed in some way?\n\n(a rhetorical question, really)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-02T13:06:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<51FAB611.60004@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: BTW, I cannot find \"khaibit\" nor \"kaibit\" at OED.com" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I borrowed my definition from this old research document: http://www.masseiana.org/on_the_shade.htm\nIt is a few paragraphs down from the top. Interestingly, it mentions eidolons also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the coffins are connected to the succession of Severians, who or what\nis in the other two closed coffins?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As mentioned I take the mausoleum and its five coffins to be more of a literary device than a\npractical part of the story. I suppose you could contruct some back story which allows the\ncoffins to contain and preserve Severian DNA, since the funerary bronze does resemble him.\n\nBut I take it more along the lines of those who think Wolfe subtly puts himself or parts\nof himself into many of his stories. For example, in 5HoC we have the titular five-headed dog\nand Maitre's real name revealed as \"Gene Wolfe\". I don't think five is randomly chosen for the \nnumber of coffins.\n\nSo if I am granted poetic license to interpret the contents of the coffins, I'd say that in \naddition to Severian, they contain Number Five, Weer, Horn, maybe Latro....I think they \nsymbolize the inclusion of Gene Wolfe avatars within his stories. (I include Horn because I\ncan imagine Wolfe acknowledging that his future works will continue to contain Wolfe avatars)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: This makes me wonder what happens to khaibits when their originals die. \nWhat happened to Thecla's when she died---was she freed in some way?\n(a rhetorical question, really)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to guess that khaibits have a shorter lifespan due to their blood donation purpose.\nBut maybe that's me connecting them to replicants again. (hm, the boy Mamas gives blood to \nSeverian...is there any chance he is a Severian khaibit? ah, too speculative). .\n\nSo if they are sort lived, maybe there is always another khabit being grown to replace the first\none. Wolfe leaves everything so vague when it comes to khaibits but my intuition is that khaibits\nare more likely to run away than be freed. Thea might be an example (what is really meant by \n\"half-sister\"?). And we have Catherine and her look-alike who is being escorted by soldiers on\nthe Path of Air, and maybe the corpse with the livid face in chapt. 1. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2c74269117e9361547d8255468339b68.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-08-02T19:09:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, August 2, 2013 08:06, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson: BTW, I cannot find \"khaibit\" nor \"kaibit\" at OED.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I borrowed my definition from this old research document:\nhttp://www.masseiana.org/on_the_shade.htm\nIt is a few paragraphs down from the top. Interestingly, it mentions\neidolons also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought part of the conceit was that the translator of BOTNS did not\ninvent any words, but did use obscure ones that had previously been used\nin English before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So if I am granted poetic license to interpret the contents of the\ncoffins, I'd say that in\naddition to Severian, they contain Number Five, Weer, Horn, maybe\nLatro....I think they\nsymbolize the inclusion of Gene Wolfe avatars within his stories. (I\ninclude Horn because I\ncan imagine Wolfe acknowledging that his future works will continue to\ncontain Wolfe avatars)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe's said his insertion into BOTNS is Cyby." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1375471490.34006.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-08-02T19:24:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<2c74269117e9361547d8255468339b68.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but the terminology is well enough known:\n\nTo the Ancient Egyptian there is more to human beings than body and soul. They\nhave (1) the khat (the physical body), (2) the saku (spiritual\nbody), (3) the ab (heart), (4) the ka (double), (5) the ba (soul), (6) the khaibit (shadow), (7) the khu (intelligence),\n(8) the sekhem (form), (9) the ren (name). Some have\ndirect connection with \"the realm of the gods\"\nand one actually exists in \"the realm of the gods\".\n\n\nStriking that Wolfe did not use ka for apparent clones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, August 2, 2013 3:09 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Time, Not Cloning\n\n\n\nOn Fri, August 2, 2013 08:06, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: BTW, I cannot find \"khaibit\" nor \"kaibit\" at OED.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I borrowed my definition from this old research document:\nhttp://www.masseiana.org/on_the_shade.htm\nIt is a few paragraphs down from the top. Interestingly, it mentions\neidolons also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought part of the conceit was that the translator of BOTNS did not\ninvent any words, but did use obscure ones that had previously been used\nin English before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So if I am granted poetic license to interpret the contents of the\ncoffins, I'd say that in\naddition to Severian, they contain Number Five, Weer, Horn, maybe\nLatro....I think they\nsymbolize the inclusion of Gene Wolfe avatars within his stories. (I\ninclude Horn because I\ncan imagine Wolfe acknowledging that his future works will continue to\ncontain Wolfe avatars)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe's said his insertion into BOTNS is Cyby.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-02T19:27:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<1375471490.34006.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... and all this leads around to the question of whether Severian (the\nSeverian we know, who is \"not the first Severian\") is himself a _khaibit_\nor \"shadow...thus the real meaning of the title." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:24 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nTrue, but the terminology is well enough known:\n\nTo the Ancient Egyptian there is more to human beings than body and soul.\nThey have (1) the *khat* (*the physical body*), (2) the *saku* (*spiritual\nbody*), (3) the *ab* (*heart*), (4) the *ka* (*double*), (5) the *ba* (*\nsoul*), (6) the *khaibit* (*shadow*), (7) the *khu* (*intelligence*), (8)\nthe *sekhem* (*form*), (9) the *ren* (*name*). Some have direct\nconnection with \"*the realm of the gods*\" and one actually exists in \"*the\nrealm of the gods*\".****\n\nStriking that Wolfe did not use ka for apparent clones.\n\n ------------------------------\n *From:* Jeff Wilson \n*To:* The Urth Mailing List \n*Sent:* Friday, August 2, 2013 3:09 PM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Time, Not Cloning\n\n\nOn Fri, August 2, 2013 08:06, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: BTW, I cannot find \"khaibit\" nor \"kaibit\" at OED.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I borrowed my definition from this old research document:\nhttp://www.masseiana.org/on_the_shade.htm\nIt is a few paragraphs down from the top. Interestingly, it mentions\neidolons also." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought part of the conceit was that the translator of BOTNS did not\ninvent any words, but did use obscure ones that had previously been used\nin English before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So if I am granted poetic license to interpret the contents of the\ncoffins, I'd say that in\naddition to Severian, they contain Number Five, Weer, Horn, maybe\nLatro....I think they\nsymbolize the inclusion of Gene Wolfe avatars within his stories. (I\ninclude Horn because I\ncan imagine Wolfe acknowledging that his future works will continue to\ncontain Wolfe avatars)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe's said his insertion into BOTNS is Cyby.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<598ef95e915309443cebebbe641c2e96.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-08-02T23:30:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<1375471490.34006.YahooMailNeo@web84504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, August 2, 2013 14:24, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nTrue, but the terminology is well enough known:\n\nTo the Ancient Egyptian there is more to human beings than body and soul.\nThey\nhave (1) the khat (the physical body), (2) the saku (spiritual\nbody), (3) the ab (heart), (4) the ka (double), (5) the ba (soul), (6) the\nkhaibit (shadow), (7) the khu (intelligence),\n(8) the sekhem (form), (9) the ren (name). Some have\ndirect connection with \"the realm of the gods\"\nand one actually exists in \"the realm of the gods\".\n\n\nStriking that Wolfe did not use ka for apparent clones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He may have read material from periods where the \"ka\" was treated as a\nkind of poltergeist or id monster, more suitable for guarding tombs than\nstaffing a brothel." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-08-02T23:34:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, August 2, 2013 14:27, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n... and all this leads around to the question of whether Severian (the\nSeverian we know, who is \"not the first Severian\") is himself a _khaibit_\nor \"shadow...thus the real meaning of the title." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken this to mean his previous time-loop instances, or from\nearlier drafts of the life-play he finds himself in. I suppose it is\nnatural for him to think of himself as the continuing entity rather than\nthe corpses he doesn't particularly identify with." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51FC51B8.7040804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-08-03T00:41:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the simplest way to interpret that is,\n\nshadow = khaibit\n\nkhaibit = clone\n\nso shadow = clone and\n\n\"The Shadow of the Torturer\" = \"The Clone of the Torturer\"\n\nTake it away, boys!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/2/2013 3:27 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n... and all this leads around to the question of whether Severian (the \nSeverian we know, who is \"not the first Severian\") is himself a \n_khaibit_ or \"shadow...thus the real meaning of the title.\n\n\nOn Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 12:24 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF \n> wrote:\n\n True, but the terminology is well enough known:\n\n To the Ancient Egyptian there is more to human beings than body\n and soul. They have (1) the /khat/ (*the physical body*), (2) the\n /saku/ (*spiritual body*), (3) the /ab/ (*heart*), (4) the /ka/\n (*double*), (5) the /ba/ (*soul*), (6) the /khaibit/ (*shadow*),\n (7) the /khu/ (*intelligence*), (8) the /sekhem/ (*form*), (9) the\n /ren/ (*name*). Some have direct connection with \"*the realm of\n the gods*\" and one actually exists in \"*the realm of the\n gods*\".****\n \n\n Striking that Wolfe did not use ka for apparent clones.\n\n ------------------------------------------------------------------------\n *From:* Jeff Wilson >\n *To:* The Urth Mailing List >\n *Sent:* Friday, August 2, 2013 3:09 PM\n *Subject:* Re: (urth) Time, Not Cloning\n\n\n On Fri, August 2, 2013 08:06, Lee Berman wrote:\n >>Jeff Wilson: BTW, I cannot find \"khaibit\" nor \"kaibit\" at\n OED.com\n >\n > I borrowed my definition from this old research document:\n > http://www.masseiana.org/on_the_shade.htm\n > It is a few paragraphs down from the top. Interestingly, it\n mentions\n > eidolons also.\n\n I thought part of the conceit was that the translator of BOTNS\n did not\n invent any words, but did use obscure ones that had previously\n been used\n in English before.\n\n\n > So if I am granted poetic license to interpret the contents\n of the\n > coffins, I'd say that in\n > addition to Severian, they contain Number Five, Weer, Horn,\n maybe\n > Latro....I think they\n > symbolize the inclusion of Gene Wolfe avatars within his\n stories. (I\n > include Horn because I\n > can imagine Wolfe acknowledging that his future works will\n continue to\n > contain Wolfe avatars).\n\n\n Wolfe's said his insertion into BOTNS is Cyby.\n\n\n -- \n Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com\n >\n A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n < http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-05T15:00:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<51FC51B8.7040804@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I thought part of the conceit was that the translator of BOTNS did not\ninvent any words, but did use obscure ones that had previously been used\nin English before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say yes with the amendment to \"previously been used on earth before\". Wolfe's\nuse of the word khaibit and its omission from the OED is clear evidence that he goes\nbeyond English for his source material. Perhaps there are other examples. Plus I think\nnames like Ossipago, Abaia and Tzadkiel have probably had negligible mentions in the\nhistory of English usage but are used because they most closely approximate what \nWolfe is trying to describe.\n\nSheesh. I was just wondering if maybe Wolfe had caved a bit on inventing Ossipago's name.\nSo I checked. Nope." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ossipago- In Roman mythology, Ossipago was a minor goddess of skeletal structures and the \nstrengthener of foetal bones " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Ossipago\n\n\"goddess\" hm....that's interesting. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-05T15:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: ... and all this leads around to the question of whether Severian (the\nSeverian we know, who is \"not the first Severian\") is himself a _khaibit_\nor \"shadow...thus the real meaning of the title." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I've always taken this to mean his previous time-loop instances, or from\nearlier drafts of the life-play he finds himself in." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So we are back to the original topic of this thread- Is the Severian we know a product of\ntime travel or cloning?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: And the simplest way to interpret that is,\nshadow = khaibit\nkhaibit = clone\nso shadow = clone and\n\"The Shadow of the Torturer\" = \"The Clone of the Torturer\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The simple elegance of this equation is very appealing to me. It is a conclusion I think\nWOlfe must have intended us to come to. One conclusion...\n\nOn the other hand, Severian being a clone doesn't jibe well with him being the product of\nsexual union between Ouen and Catherine. And the mirror-image guys he sees in the tavern \nroom amidst the hubbub of the Zama incident seem like time traveller types..\n\nMaybe it is like the ambiguous solution to Severian's sister identity in RttW. We get\nplausible evidence both for Merryn and Jolenta. So perhaps the most accurate answer to\nthese questions is that we aren't meant to definitively know.\n\nIn that case, perhaps Wolfe is saying that he finds the question to be more important\nand revealing than the answer. We are supposed to \"know thyself\", but it is a philosophical \ntruth that none of us can authoritatively know where we came from. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0D937914-4B6D-4BD6-8D57-79B818D36517@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-08-05T15:37:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be all negative, and not that a title can't have two connotations, but there is a pretty explicit rumination on that shadow that comes from the hand of the secular authority administering justice, standing between the soon to be executed and the inexplicable divine justice, the increate or his symbol, the sun. Severian's narrative blurs what is actually standing between the light and the victim in his insistence on being consubstantial to some degree with the New Sun - and the justice of that coming is pretty much universal excision and execution for the majority of mankind. Is the torturer in the way of the light or serving it?\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 5, 2013, at 8:21 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes: ... and all this leads around to the question of whether Severian (the\nSeverian we know, who is \"not the first Severian\") is himself a _khaibit_\nor \"shadow...thus the real meaning of the title." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I've always taken this to mean his previous time-loop instances, or from\nearlier drafts of the life-play he finds himself in." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So we are back to the original topic of this thread- Is the Severian we know a product of\ntime travel or cloning?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: And the simplest way to interpret that is,\nshadow = khaibit\nkhaibit = clone\nso shadow = clone and\n\"The Shadow of the Torturer\" = \"The Clone of the Torturer\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The simple elegance of this equation is very appealing to me. It is a conclusion I think\nWOlfe must have intended us to come to. One conclusion...\n\nOn the other hand, Severian being a clone doesn't jibe well with him being the product of\nsexual union between Ouen and Catherine. And the mirror-image guys he sees in the tavern \nroom amidst the hubbub of the Zama incident seem like time traveller types..\n\nMaybe it is like the ambiguous solution to Severian's sister identity in RttW. We get\nplausible evidence both for Merryn and Jolenta. So perhaps the most accurate answer to\nthese questions is that we aren't meant to definitively know.\n\nIn that case, perhaps Wolfe is saying that he finds the question to be more important\nand revealing than the answer. We are supposed to \"know thyself\", but it is a philosophical \ntruth that none of us can authoritatively know where we came from. \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-06T11:28:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "<0D937914-4B6D-4BD6-8D57-79B818D36517@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Not to be all negative, and not that a title can't have \ntwo connotations, but there is a pretty explicit rumination on that \nshadow that comes from the hand of the secular authority administering \njustice, standing between the soon to be executed and the inexplicable \ndivine justice, the increate or his symbol, the sun. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all, Marc. Wolfe himself makes it clear that all things have\nmultiple levels of meanings. It was just striking how Jeff's post suggested \na \"ploughman's\" meaning which I had never thought of and has been to my\nknoweldge generally overlooked. The ploughman's meaning being simultaneouly\nthe lowest and highest level of understanding. The title may have, as you\nsuggest, political and spiritual meaning, not to mention autobiographical.\n\nBut it doesn't get much more simple, direct and basic than David's equation:\nSeverian=Shadow=Khaibit=Clone. Which, given the literary proximity of 5HoC, \nis an equation I'm currently finding it difficult to believe Wolfe never had \nin mind. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1375800182.89381.YahooMailNeo@web84502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-08-06T14:43:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time, Not Cloning", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Lee Berman \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Tuesday, August 6, 2013 7:28 AM\nSubject: (urth) Time, Not Cloning" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: Not to be all negative, and not that a title can't have \ntwo connotations, but there is a pretty explicit rumination on that \nshadow that comes from the hand of the secular authority administering \njustice, standing between the soon to be executed and the inexplicable \ndivine justice, the increate or his symbol, the sun. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not at all, Marc. Wolfe himself makes it clear that all things have\nmultiple levels of meanings. It was just striking how Jeff's post suggested \na \"ploughman's\" meaning which I had never thought of and has been to my\nknoweldge generally overlooked. The ploughman's meaning being simultaneouly\nthe lowest and highest level of understanding. The title may have, as you\nsuggest, political and spiritual meaning, not to mention autobiographical.\n\nBut it doesn't get much more simple, direct and basic than David's equation:\nSeverian=Shadow=Khaibit=Clone. Which, given the literary proximity of 5HoC, \nis an equation I'm currently finding it difficult to believe Wolfe never had \nin mind. ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? \n\n\n\nThe relation of the Shadow of the title to Severian is the tricky part. Is Severian even the Torturer? Possibly the Torturer is the Increate/Conciliator (since this universe is Fallen) and Severian is His shadow. A shadow need not always be a khaibit. But if the Torturer is a physical person, then he CAN be cloned. From there, nothing prevents us from assuming he HAS been cloned.\n\nWhich doesn't mean that's all he is. I can only guess that to raise an Urthly being up to a level at which he can even be considered worthy of the Increate's direct attention must require ALL the magical technology at the Yesodis' disposal: cloning, breeding, training, time looping, feedback management, direct intervention, eidolons. Every meaning of \"shadow\" can be exploited, including Marc's literal/symbolic one (as opposed to the metaphorical sense of \"copy\").\n\nThe awkward aspect of this equation is that it makes Severian both Shadow and Torturer. But we already know this must be true, since he dies so many times. This precedent---Severian as flesh and Severian as his own ghost---opens the gates to Severian as his own clone, Severian as his own puppet, Severian as his own descendent, etc." } ] } ] }