Latro Thoughts

On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>wrote: I had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would always have an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done with *Soldier of the Mist, and have been enjoying it. It has a number of parallels with the *Long Sun *books, such as the (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions of blood sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like vampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype version of what became *The Book of the New Sun; a central male hero suffers some kind of mental "event" (on the one hand, severe brain trauma, and on the other, enlightenment) that opens the door to gods (or to what appear as gods). In both works, these gods are petty, prone to infighting, and in many ways offer more questions than answers to the hero. He has only been mentioned twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider similarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys have all probably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to air a few thoughts. I do have one question: does the series conclude with Soldier of Sidon? I would, of course, like to avoid spoilers, I am mostly interested in the possibility of more Latro novels. Thanks! _______________________________________________

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: "Does the series conclude with S.o.Sidon?" -- That depends on whether Wolfe writes another one or not. The series is open-ended. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com <mailto:kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>> wrote: I had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would always have an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done with /Soldier of the Mist, /and have been enjoying it. It has a number of parallels with the /Long Sun /books, such as the (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions of blood sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like vampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype version of what became /The Book of the New Sun/; a central male hero suffers some kind of mental "event" (on the one hand, severe brain trauma, and on the other, enlightenment) that opens the door to gods (or to what appear as gods). In both works, these gods are petty, prone to infighting, and in many ways offer more questions than answers to the hero. He has only been mentioned twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider similarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys have all probably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to air a few thoughts. I do have one question: does the series conclude with /Soldier of Sidon/? I would, of course, like to avoid spoilers, I am mostly interested in the possibility of more Latro novels. Thanks! _______________________________________________

On 7/29/2013 12:14 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: "Does the series conclude with S.o.Sidon?" -- That depends on whether Wolfe writes another one or not. The series is open-ended. On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com <mailto:kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>> wrote: I had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would always have an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done with /Soldier of the Mist, /and have been enjoying it. It has a number of parallels with the /Long Sun /books, such as the (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions of blood sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like vampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype version of what became /The Book of the New Sun/; a central male hero suffers some kind of mental "event" (on the one hand, severe brain trauma, and on the other, enlightenment) that opens the door to gods (or to what appear as gods). In both works, these gods are petty, prone to infighting, and in many ways offer more questions than answers to the hero. He has only been mentioned twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider similarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys have all probably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to air a few thoughts. I do have one question: does the series conclude with /Soldier of Sidon/? I would, of course, like to avoid spoilers, I am mostly interested in the possibility of more Latro novels. Thanks! _______________________________________________

On Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote: From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely. The interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that go way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think.

On Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote: From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely. The interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that go way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think.

On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Christopher Simon <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com> wrote: It does seem like the gods are real. The obvious alternative (albeit an un-Wolfean one) is that Latro's head trauma causes him to hallucinate, but enough of the other characters verify his ability in various ways that we can discount this. From: Jeff Wilson Sent: ?7/?29/?2013 2:39 PM To: The Urth Mailing List Subject: Re: (urth) Latro Thoughts On Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote:

From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely. The interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that go way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think.

Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to be literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of lesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament God. -- Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com > A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab < http://www.tamut.edu/cil > _______________________________________________

On 7/29/2013 8:30 PM, Marc Aramini wrote: Yeah the trauma is only the most superficial touch of realism- gods and the wellsprings of human faith are as real as they can be in those books, but the religious scheme is syncretic. The triple goddess, the sublimation of Pleistorus into Ahura Mazda- these are all pointing to a recrystallization and refocus of the divine identities into something more uniform once their ideological differences are resolved. Wonderful books. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Christopher Simon <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com <mailto:kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>> wrote:

It does seem like the gods are real. The obvious alternative (albeit an un-Wolfean one) is that Latro's head trauma causes him to hallucinate, but enough of the other characters verify his ability in various ways that we can discount this. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: Jeff Wilson <mailto:jwilson at clueland.com> Sent: ?7/?29/?2013 2:39 PM To: The Urth Mailing List <mailto:urth at lists.urth.net> Subject: Re: (urth) Latro Thoughts On Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote:

From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely. The interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that go way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think.

Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to be literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of lesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament God. -- Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com <mailto:jwilson at clueland.com> > A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab < http://www.tamut.edu/cil > _______________________________________________

Jeff Wilson: Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to be literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of lesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament God.

Marc Aramini: Yeah the trauma is only the most superficial touch of realism- gods and the wellsprings of human faith are as real as they can be in those books, but the religious scheme is syncretic. The triple goddess, the sublimation of Pleistorus into Ahura Mazda- these are all pointing to a recrystallization and refocus of the divine identities into something more uniform once their ideological differences are resolved.

David Stockhoff: And those differences are if anything made even more clear among the gods of the /Whorl./

Marc Aramini: I actually fancy that the Latro books are an exploration of the pre-Christian zeitgeist leading up to the time of the Pax Roman that becomes something of the ultimate philosophical moment of Christian history - mankind is at last ready for divine revision, and that readiness creates a scenario were immutable God takes on a mutable human nature. Wolfe's gnostic play is here in full force - it is impossible to ignore the ideological differences between the Creator God and the God who is fully human and fully divine;

On 7/31/2013 10:38 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: Lee wrote: "Given Jeff's consideration of Wolfe's assessment of the reality of pagan gods, this re- combining theme makes Wolfe's personal theology very interesting with regard to pagan gods, the Trinity and Christianity. " I actually fancy that the Latro books are an exploration of the pre-Christian zeitgeist leading up to the time of the Pax Roman that becomes something of the ultimate philosophical moment of Christian history - mankind is at last ready for divine revision, and that readiness creates a scenario were immutable God takes on a mutable human nature. Wolfe's gnostic play is here in full force - it is impossible to ignore the ideological differences between the Creator God and the God who is fully human and fully divine; the relationship between what people believe in and their own character no doubt shapes their perception of the world of the divine. The paradox of pagan gods being "real" in a Christian world view is something that bears thinking about, but I think that trite coin motto works: e pluribus unum ... but mankind must be unified, too.