{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6403", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6403, "subject": "Latro Thoughts", "messages": 12, "voices": 8, "first": "2013-07-29T16:06:35+00:00", "last": "2013-07-31T23:30:44+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T16:06:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would always\nhave an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my curiosity has\nfinally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done with *Soldier of the\nMist, *and have been enjoying it. It has a number of parallels with the *Long\nSun *books, such as the (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions of\nblood sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like\nvampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype version\nof what became *The Book of the New Sun*; a central male hero suffers some\nkind of mental \"event\" (on the one hand, severe brain trauma, and on the\nother, enlightenment) that opens the door to gods (or to what appear as\ngods). In both works, these gods are petty, prone to infighting, and in\nmany ways offer more questions than answers to the hero. He has only been\nmentioned twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider\nsimilarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys have all\nprobably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to air a few\nthoughts. I do have one question: does the series conclude with *Soldier\nof Sidon*? I would, of course, like to avoid spoilers, I am mostly\ninterested in the possibility of more Latro novels. Thanks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T16:14:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Does the series conclude with S.o.Sidon?\" -- That depends on whether Wolfe\nwrites another one or not. The series is open-ended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nI had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would always\nhave an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my curiosity has\nfinally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done with *Soldier of the\nMist, *and have been enjoying it. It has a number of parallels with the *Long\nSun *books, such as the (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions\nof blood sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like\nvampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype version\nof what became *The Book of the New Sun*; a central male hero suffers\nsome kind of mental \"event\" (on the one hand, severe brain trauma, and on\nthe other, enlightenment) that opens the door to gods (or to what appear as\ngods). In both works, these gods are petty, prone to infighting, and in\nmany ways offer more questions than answers to the hero. He has only been\nmentioned twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider\nsimilarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys have all\nprobably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to air a few\nthoughts. I do have one question: does the series conclude with *Soldier\nof Sidon*? I would, of course, like to avoid spoilers, I am mostly\ninterested in the possibility of more Latro novels. Thanks!\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F69F7A.8070209@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-07-29T16:59:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Antonin, and All -\n\njust to share my impressions, I was greatly impressed by first two books \n(Soldier of the Mist and Soldier of Arete), and was\nwaiting with impatience for Soldier of Sidon, but in the end was rather \ndepressed by it - my overall impression\nis that the ending of Soldier of Arete is great, I think that Latro in \nsome sense wins against these \"petty\" gods in spite\nof his injured memory - and he goes home! There are also other great \npages in the first two books (e.g., the\nmeeting with Proserpina, the falanga's attacks in the end of the \n\"Soldier of the Mist\"). But the third book was a sad conclusion, because we\nsee that Latro failed with his plan to find a cure at home, and his \nadventures in Egypt and in black Africa look as a slow\ndrowning into chaos - his meeting with the Seven Lions tribe is a sad \nstory etc -\n\nRegards -\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\"Does the series conclude with S.o.Sidon?\" -- That depends on whether \nWolfe writes another one or not. The series is open-ended.\n\n\nOn Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Antonin Scriabin \n> wrote:\n\n I had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would\n always have an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my\n curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done\n with /Soldier of the Mist, /and have been enjoying it. It has a\n number of parallels with the /Long Sun /books, such as the\n (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions of blood\n sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like\n vampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype\n version of what became /The Book of the New Sun/; a central male\n hero suffers some kind of mental \"event\" (on the one hand, severe\n brain trauma, and on the other, enlightenment) that opens the door\n to gods (or to what appear as gods). In both works, these gods\n are petty, prone to infighting, and in many ways offer more\n questions than answers to the hero. He has only been mentioned\n twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider\n similarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys\n have all probably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to\n air a few thoughts. I do have one question: does the series\n conclude with /Soldier of Sidon/? I would, of course, like to\n avoid spoilers, I am mostly interested in the possibility of more\n Latro novels. Thanks!\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F6A0B7.90409@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2013-07-29T17:04:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely.\n\nThe interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that \ngo way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/29/2013 12:14 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\"Does the series conclude with S.o.Sidon?\" -- That depends on whether \nWolfe writes another one or not. The series is open-ended.\n\n\nOn Mon, Jul 29, 2013 at 9:06 AM, Antonin Scriabin \n> wrote:\n\n I had been putting off the Latro books for a while so that I would\n always have an unread Wolfe series to look forward to, but my\n curiosity has finally gotten the better of me. I am nearly done\n with /Soldier of the Mist, /and have been enjoying it. It has a\n number of parallels with the /Long Sun /books, such as the\n (apparent) reality of gods, detailed discussions of blood\n sacrifice, a just-outside-of-view threat from non-humans like\n vampires and werewolves, etc. It actually seems like a prototype\n version of what became /The Book of the New Sun/; a central male\n hero suffers some kind of mental \"event\" (on the one hand, severe\n brain trauma, and on the other, enlightenment) that opens the door\n to gods (or to what appear as gods). In both works, these gods\n are petty, prone to infighting, and in many ways offer more\n questions than answers to the hero. He has only been mentioned\n twice so far, but I also feel that the Unknown God / Outsider\n similarity can't be a coincidence. Anyways, I know that you guys\n have all probably been over these topics plenty, I just wanted to\n air a few thoughts. I do have one question: does the series\n conclude with /Soldier of Sidon/? I would, of course, like to\n avoid spoilers, I am mostly interested in the possibility of more\n Latro novels. Thanks!\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9c533bd8147e5987b4e8439a37529715.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T18:39:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<51F6A0B7.90409@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote:\n From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely.\n\nThe interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that\ngo way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to\nbe literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of\nlesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament\nGod." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51f6f38b.05f7b60a.64ca.1e0a@mx.google.com>", "from": { "name": "Christopher Simon", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-29T22:58:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<9c533bd8147e5987b4e8439a37529715.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does seem like the gods are real. The obvious alternative (albeit an un-Wolfean one) is that Latro's head trauma causes him to hallucinate, but enough of the other characters verify his ability in various ways that we can discount this.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nSent: ?7/?29/?2013 2:39 PM\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) Latro Thoughts" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote:\n From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely.\n\nThe interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that\ngo way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to\nbe literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of\nlesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament\nGod." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<663AEFE5-88FD-453D-9FD2-65498CE70895@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-07-30T00:30:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<51f6f38b.05f7b60a.64ca.1e0a@mx.google.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah the trauma is only the most superficial touch of realism- gods and the wellsprings of human faith are as real as they can be in those books, but the religious scheme is syncretic. The triple goddess, the sublimation of Pleistorus into Ahura Mazda- these are all pointing to a recrystallization and refocus of the divine identities into something more uniform once their ideological differences are resolved. Wonderful books. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 29, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Christopher Simon wrote:\nIt does seem like the gods are real. The obvious alternative (albeit an un-Wolfean one) is that Latro's head trauma causes him to hallucinate, but enough of the other characters verify his ability in various ways that we can discount this.\nFrom: Jeff Wilson\nSent: ?7/?29/?2013 2:39 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Latro Thoughts\n\n\nOn Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely.\n\nThe interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that\ngo way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to\nbe literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of\nlesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament\nGod.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F7A93C.9090503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-30T11:53:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<663AEFE5-88FD-453D-9FD2-65498CE70895@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And those differences are if anything made even more clear among the \ngods of the /Whorl./" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/29/2013 8:30 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nYeah the trauma is only the most superficial touch of realism- gods \nand the wellsprings of human faith are as real as they can be in those \nbooks, but the religious scheme is syncretic. The triple goddess, the \nsublimation of Pleistorus into Ahura Mazda- these are all pointing to \na recrystallization and refocus of the divine identities into \nsomething more uniform once their ideological differences are \nresolved. Wonderful books.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Jul 29, 2013, at 3:58 PM, Christopher Simon \n> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It does seem like the gods are real. The obvious alternative (albeit \nan un-Wolfean one) is that Latro's head trauma causes him to \nhallucinate, but enough of the other characters verify his ability in \nvarious ways that we can discount this.\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSent: ?7/?29/?2013 2:39 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Latro Thoughts\n\n\nOn Mon, July 29, 2013 12:04, Fernando Gouvea wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From what Wolfe has been saying, another /Soldier/ seems very unlikely.\n\nThe interaction with the gods is central to the Latro books in way that\ngo way beyond the /Long Sun/ books, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are \nintended to\nbe literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of\nlesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament\nGod.\n\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T14:15:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<51F7A93C.9090503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Yes, and I believe the the pagan gods in the SOLDIER books are intended to\nbe literally that, as Wolfe has professed his belief in the existence of\nlesser gods like those recorded as inferior rivals of the Old Testament\nGod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Yeah the trauma is only the most superficial touch of realism- gods \nand the wellsprings of human faith are as real as they can be in those \nbooks, but the religious scheme is syncretic. The triple goddess, the \nsublimation of Pleistorus into Ahura Mazda- these are all pointing to \na recrystallization and refocus of the divine identities into \nsomething more uniform once their ideological differences are \nresolved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: And those differences are if anything made even more clear among the \ngods of the /Whorl./" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubly agree. Dr. Crane's assessment mirrors that conflation of head trauma with receiving \ndivine inspiration/communication with God/the gods.\n\nAnd I think Marc's discussion of the \"recrystalization and refocus of divine identities\ninto something more uniform\" is mirrored in Long/Short Sun as the \"cards\" of the gods\nseem to become shuffled and redealt into more unified entities, i.e. the godling Pig \nseems to have components of Phaea, Tartaros and Pas incorporated. Pieces of Pas, Scylla\nEchidna, Kypris, Sphygx, Molpe, Thelxiepeia and maybe Hierax seem scattered here and there \nwithin various characters.\n\nGiven Jeff's consideration of Wolfe's assessment of the reality of pagan gods, this re-\ncombining theme makes Wolfe's personal theology very interesting with regard to pagan\ngods, the Trinity and Christianity. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1375281526.69566.YahooMailNeo@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T14:38:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee wrote:\n\n\"Given Jeff's consideration of Wolfe's assessment of the reality of pagan gods, this re-\ncombining theme makes Wolfe's personal theology very interesting with regard to pagan\ngods, the Trinity and Christianity. \"?\n\n???????????????????????? \n\nI actually fancy that the Latro books are an exploration of the pre-Christian zeitgeist leading up to the time of the Pax Roman that becomes something of the ultimate philosophical moment of Christian history - mankind is at last ready for divine revision, and that readiness creates a scenario were immutable God takes on a mutable human nature. Wolfe's gnostic play is here in full force - it is impossible to ignore the ideological differences between the Creator God and the God who is fully human and fully divine; the relationship between what people believe in and their own character no doubt shapes their perception of the world of the divine.\n\nThe paradox of pagan gods being \"real\" in a Christian world view is something that bears thinking about, but I think that trite coin motto works: e pluribus unum ... but mankind must be unified, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-07-31T18:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<1375281526.69566.YahooMailNeo@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I actually fancy that the Latro books are an exploration\nof the pre-Christian zeitgeist leading up to the time of the Pax Roman \nthat becomes something of the ultimate philosophical moment of Christian \nhistory - mankind is at last ready for divine revision, and that readiness \ncreates a scenario were immutable God takes on a mutable human nature. Wolfe's \ngnostic play is here in full force - it is impossible to ignore the ideological \ndifferences between the Creator God and the God who is fully human and fully \ndivine; " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting Marc. The first thoughts which came to my mind when reading your post \nWere about Wolfe's willingness to create species who seem to be on a higher \nspiritual plane than humans (Neigbors and Hiero-types, e.g.).\n\nMight it be in Wolfe's mind that we humans still remain unready for some higher \ndivine revelation than that of Christ? And eventually something beyond that? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<51F99E24.3050204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-07-31T23:30:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro Thoughts", "in_reply_to": "<1375281526.69566.YahooMailNeo@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2013 10:38 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nLee wrote:\n\n\"Given Jeff's consideration of Wolfe's assessment of the reality of \npagan gods, this re-\ncombining theme makes Wolfe's personal theology very interesting with \nregard to pagan\ngods, the Trinity and Christianity. \"\n\nI actually fancy that the Latro books are an exploration of the \npre-Christian zeitgeist leading up to the time of the Pax Roman that \nbecomes something of the ultimate philosophical moment of Christian \nhistory - mankind is at last ready for divine revision, and that \nreadiness creates a scenario were immutable God takes on a mutable \nhuman nature. Wolfe's gnostic play is here in full force - it is \nimpossible to ignore the ideological differences between the Creator \nGod and the God who is fully human and fully divine; the relationship \nbetween what people believe in and their own character no doubt shapes \ntheir perception of the world of the divine.\nThe paradox of pagan gods being \"real\" in a Christian world view is \nsomething that bears thinking about, but I think that trite coin motto \nworks: e pluribus unum ... but mankind must be unified, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Trite as it may be, that idea lies behind the \"obsession\" with cloning \nand explains why the Ascians and megatherians are not as repugnant to \nthe Yesodis as one would expect. One side must unify mankind, and it may \nnot matter which one." } ] } ] }