{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6411",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
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  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 6411,
    "subject": "Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
    "messages": 6,
    "voices": 3,
    "first": "2013-08-13T20:06:44+00:00",
    "last": "2013-08-14T14:20:29+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<1376424404.78940.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2013-08-13T20:06:44+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth)  Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
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          "text": "Peritonitis originally appeared in Tomorrow’s Alternatives in 1973. It is collected in Endangered\nSpecies on page 279.\nIn this rather straightforward allegory, secondary narrator Greylock\ntells a story before the “Men of the Neck” are scattered. He is speaking in the time of “my father’s\nmother” according to the actual authorial voice, but the history is highly\nromanticized: there is an accounting of a golden time when the world “waxed”\nand people treated each other with respect, when “a virgin might dine at the\nCalf and drink at the Eyes and sleep where she would and none would harm her”. Greylock’s story encapsulates the changing\nages of the world, including the development of New Mountains which grow to\nrival the Haunches, until the world begins to wane and seems to be dying. There is talk of strife and antagonism between\nthe different colonies. Ultimately his\nstory culminates in the tale of Deepdelver, whose beloved Singer is washed into\nthe mouth by a Tear on her way to the Eye, and how Deepdelver braves the\ntemptations of the mouth and ingestion to overcome the guardians of those dark\nplaces and gain freedom in returning back to the Neck.\nCOMMENTARY: I think this is perhaps one of Wolfe’s simpler\nallegories, in light of the title. Can\nwe take it literally? Are they really\ntalking about the hair, the mouth, the tongue, and the intestines which are the\n“Everdark” — the pit of hell to our narrating microorganisms? In this case, I think that is the only\nexplanation, as does the Wolfe-wiki? Our\nspeaker has a sense of history: the body “waxed” once upon a time, though it\nhas only been waning recently. I am\nfairly certain we can identify our host as a female, with the “new mountains”\nbeing developing breasts which eventually give milk: “From the summit of each\nNew Mountain, grown now until they rivaled the Haunches, there broke forth a\nspring; and the waters of those springs were not clear as the waters of the\nEyes are, but white, and sweet.” So the\nexternal microorganisms have their colonies and roam across the body, and the\nfood and chemistry of the host changes their cyclical temperament as well. “Now\nthis party of young men and maidens were so doing when there came upon them\nsuch a calamity as we, of this latter age, have so much more knowledge than\nthey” — I think this implies that the tears that capture Singer and send her to\nthe mouth are much more common after this event - in addition to the “people” understanding\nthe internal systems of the “world”. Since these organisms seek out the wet\nspots like the eyes, it seems likely that they might be gram-negative\nbacilli. Most skin microbes are antagonistic,\nwhich would explain the hostility recounted by Greylock between the different\ntribes. It is conceivable that\nDeepdelver is a Corynebacterium, which would facilitate the growth of other\nbacteria, or even a yeast. There is a\ndistinct difference between the flora in the skin and the gut, and the presence\nof Deepdelver down there might act as a catalyst to that gut flora: ?\n“How the Inner People won them,\nthey who then ate what they had from the waters, those unseen ones who never\nstand in sun, whelming Deepdelver in their myriads; how he their slave taught\nthem to tear the meat they trod and so live lawfully, and how they gave freedom\nto him, and Singing too, when once they had tasted; how the two made their way\nmidst difficulties and dangers to the Neck again; all these are more than I can\nsay.” But you must know the courage and\nthe history of your People before you fare forth; and I have told you. Field and hill are cold now, and theWorld\nitself dying or dead, and the lands are filled with ghouls. It is time you go. This was the last story.\nI suppose my final conclusion is that it is in fact\nDeepdelver going in through the mouth, avoiding the digestive enzymes lurking\ntemptingly in the water puddles there, overcoming the body’s natural defenses\nand getting to the intestine, where somehow in his bid for freedom he ruptures\nthe peritoneum and starts the infection which will kill the host and ultimately\ndestroy the “world” of our little microorganisms. Can we identify them as bacteria, virus, or\nother skin dwelling microorganism? It\ndoes seem as if the legend of the dead ones winding up in the hair might make\nthese little things actually part of the body itself, but the other rhetoric\nsuggests that they are microorganisms and microbes living primarily outside the\nhost — and the infiltration of Deepdelver upsets the internal flora enough to\nproduce a life threatening rupture of the peritoneum.\nThere is talk of God, justice, and a divine plan. More curious is talk of “the wettings came\nand some perished” — which, as far as I can understand, is showering and\nbathing with antibacterial soap to keep the germ population down. \nPeritonitis is an inflammation of the peritoneum, the thin\ntissue that lines the inner wall of the abdomen and covers most of the\nabdominal organs. Peritonitis can result from infection (often due to rupture\nof a hollow organ as may occur in abdominal trauma or appendicitis) or from a\nnon-infectious process.\nI’m going to put this little wiki stub quote on peritoneum\nhere: “In normal conditions, the peritoneum appears greyish and glistening; it\nbecomes dull 2?4 hours after the onset of peritonitis, initially with scarce\nserous or slightly turbid fluid. Later on, the exudate becomes creamy and\nevidently suppurative; in dehydrated patients, it also becomes very\ninspissated. The quantity of accumulated exudate varies widely. It may be spread\nto the whole peritoneum, or be walled off by the omentum and viscera.\nInflammation features infiltration by neutrophils with fibrino-purulent\nexudation.” Are the breasts/New\nMountains lactating or is this exudation that Greylock speaks of sign of\ninfection? I incline toward the former\nviewpoint, since those folks are clearly on the skin surface. \n\nCONNECTION TO OTHER WORKS: For me, my recent work on Fifth\nHead of Cerberus makes this a clear example of the kind of stuff that Wolfe was\nup to in “A Story by John V. Marsch”. We\nhave an entire anthropomorphized history and a singing bunch of symbiotic\norganisms that perhaps ultimately destroy their host but are completely unaware\nof their actual nature, believing themselves sentient in a world that is living\nand perhaps divine but not individually human to them (Here, of course, I mean\nthe Shadow Children, which I maintain are small parasites despite their\nappearance in the story). \nOtherwise, the story of Deepdelver takes a mythic stance —\nmuch like Orpheus descending into the underworld to retrieve Eurydice, we have\nsomeone who braves that depth, but in this case without the tragic ending — at\nleast, according to our teller of the tale. I am fairly certain Deepdelver is at least the start of the rupturing of\nthe peritoneum that kills the “world”, a female human. The pools of water under the mouth are probably\npopulated with digestive enzymes that would catch and neutralize Deepdelver if\nhe was convinced to tarry with them — much like the sirens and sea women of\nold. The conflation of singing with that\nfeminine identity is interesting, and this “song” is also recapitulated in “A\nStory by John V. Marsch”, in which the shadow children speak of a song that\nthey sing that is occasionally picked up by other creatures, transformed by\nthem. What does Wolfe intend by this\nsong? Is it a metaphor for genetic\ninformation/infection/transference/compulsion?\nUltimately the story Peritonitis is a mythic recollection of\na hero and of changing times that ironically facilitate a mass exodus for a\nculture left with only the memories of “the last story”. It really is just what the title suggests: fatal\ninfection and the personification of organisms that are very far from human."
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<F6C0BF2824AA4702BF5E28EE7023D538@Rover>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Gerry Quinn",
        "address": "gerry at bindweed.com"
      },
      "date": "2013-08-14T08:33:28+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
      "in_reply_to": "<1376424404.78940.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
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          "text": "From: Marc Aramini"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "?How the Inner People won them, they who then ate what they\nhad from the waters, those unseen ones who never stand in sun,\nwhelming Deepdelver in their myriads; how he their slave taught\nthem to tear the meat they trod and so live lawfully, and how\n they gave freedom to him, and Singing too, when once they had\ntasted; how the two made their way midst difficulties and dangers\n to the Neck again; all these are more than I can say.  But you\nmust know the courage and the history of your People before you\nfare forth; and I have told you.  Field and hill are cold now, and\ntheWorld itself dying or dead, and the lands are filled with ghouls.\n It is time you go. This was the last story."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I suppose my final conclusion is that it is in fact Deepdelver going\nin through the mouth, avoiding the digestive enzymes lurking\ntemptingly in the water puddles there, overcoming the body’s\nnatural defenses and getting to the intestine, where somehow in\nhis bid for freedom he ruptures the peritoneum and starts the\n infection which will kill the host and ultimately destroy the “world”\n of our little microorganisms.  Can we identify them as bacteria,\n virus, or other skin dwelling microorganism?  It does seem as if\nthe legend of the dead ones winding up in the hair might make\nthese little things actually part of the body itself, but the other\nrhetoric suggests that they are microorganisms and microbes\nliving primarily outside the host — and the infiltration of Deepdelver\nupsets the internal flora enough to produce a life threatening\nrupture of the peritoneum."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "The way I read it is they are bacteria and the key words are \"how he []\ntaught them to tear the meat they trod and so live lawfully, and how\nthey gave freedom to him [] when once they had tasted\"\n\nWhat is being described is genetic recombination among bacteria, in which \nthe gut flora receive DNA fragments coding for enzymes which allow them to \nattack and devour the substrate on which they live.  For skin bacteria like \nDeepdelver, the eating of dead skin cells is normal and not pathogenic to \nthe host.  When the gut bacteria attack the gut wall, however, it leads to \nan infection and the death of the host."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Are the breasts/New Mountains lactating or is this exudation that Greylock\nspeaks of sign of infection?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "It happened earlier, hence it must be lactation.  I think perhaps the host \nlost a child, but it is hard to be certain.  \"For when those springs died \nthe New Mountains waned; and the Belly, which had, scarcely noted, waxed \nabove the Loins, withered in one dark. [Paragraph break] Then many felt \ntheir doom upon them; this feeling was in the meat, so it was said - but in \nthe air as well.\"\n\nIt does seem to be the case that it was after this event that Singing was \ncaptured.\n\nAs for the story as a whole, I think we are intended to think of it as two \nseparate interpretations of the same events [the human interpretation is \nimplicit, as the human audience needs less help with that]. The events \nthemselves are fully understood by neither the bacterial narrator nor the \nhost's doctors.\n\n- Gerry Quinn "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<BLU175-W26632C0C396D1E28058F37CF450@phx.gbl>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Lee Berman",
        "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2013-08-14T12:37:05+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
      "in_reply_to": "<F6C0BF2824AA4702BF5E28EE7023D538@Rover>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
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          "text": "Marc Aramini: For me, my recent work on Fifth Head of Cerberus makes this a \nclear example of the kind of stuff that Wolfe wasup to in “A Story by John V. Marsch”.  \nWe have an entire anthropomorphized history and a singing bunch of symbiotic organisms \nthat perhaps ultimately destroy their host but are completely unaware of their actual \nnature."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Great analysis and comparison, Marc. I agree that similar literary principles are at\nwork with Shadow Children, along with Neighbors, Inhumi, Abaia/undines, Tzadkiel/Apheta,\nthe gods of the Whorl and maybe the gods Latro encounters.\n\nWe, as humans, take our gender and our individual identity as fixed constants. But that\nis not going to be the case for non-human characters. What does it mean when we are given \nthe gender and individual name of a bacterium, a Shadow Child, an Abo, a giant asexual sea \nmonster, an angel, an electronic god or dreamy, plural goat people?\n\nIn most Wolfe stories involving non-human characters, we must see gender and naming as \nconventions which are assigned only as a matter of translation and interpretation for \ndealings with humans, including us, as readers. (e.g. Apheta and Pig don't have names\nuntil one is needed. The Green Man never gets one).\n\nOstensibly, assigning a name and gender to a budded off piece of a giant sponge is\nsupposed to clarify things for us. But we know Wolfe uses the same principle to confuse \nhis readers too. Part of the enjoyment is trying to figure it all out, I guess."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Gerry Quinn: I think we are intended to think of it as two \nseparate interpretations of the same events [the human interpretation is \nimplicit, as the human audience needs less help with that]. The events \nthemselves are fully understood by neither the bacterial narrator nor the \nhost's doctors."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I agree. The doctors in this story are (supposedly) vastly superior beings to infectious\nbacteria.  But the doctors would be more effective in their treatment if they knew what \nGreylock knew.\n\nI think there is a similar dynamic between Tzadkiel and Severian. The angel is a being\norders of magnitude superior to humans. Yet there are some aspects to Severian\nwhich he/she is unable to understand or duplicate. The deference Tzadkiel shows Severian\nis surprising. But in the context of the whole story and the body of Wolfe's work, it\nmakes sense. \t\t \t   \t\t  "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<8C86FE3D-2BA2-4690-9754-B40063B4121B@yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2013-08-14T13:12:40+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
      "in_reply_to": "<1376424404.78940.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
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          "kind": "quote",
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          "text": "Gerry wrote : It happened earlier, hence it must be lactation.  I think perhaps the host lost a child, but it is hard to be certain.  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Yes I got the impression that the tears were way more common after Singer was captured- I agree with that feeling. Depression might have made her more susceptible to a simple bacterial infection as well. I agree - bacteria and a lost child.  "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<3D4FC460-710D-4B86-A359-2F2B8849D91A@yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2013-08-14T13:14:45+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
      "in_reply_to": "<1376424404.78940.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
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          "text": "How much harder would this story have been if Wolfe had named it \"Deepdelver and the Everdark\" or \"Greylock's Last Story\"? I feel like in the 90s he might not have given us the interpretive friendly title. "
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<58113C41-0031-4B9B-8686-4D510DB6E2A1@yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2013-08-14T14:20:29+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Short Story 48: Peritonitis",
      "in_reply_to": "<BLU175-W26632C0C396D1E28058F37CF450@phx.gbl>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Lee wrote: I agree that similar literary principles are atwork with Shadow Children, along with Neighbors, Inhumi, Abaia/undines, Tzadkiel/Apheta,the gods of the Whorl and maybe the gods Latro encounters.We, as humans, take our gender and our individual identity as fixed constants. But thatis not going to be the case for non-human characters. What does it mean when we are given the gender and individual name of a bacterium, a Shadow Child, an Abo, a giant asexual sea monster, an angel, an electronic god or dreamy, plural goat people?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "One more thing that just struck me is the nature of this self referential myth making - Deepdelver is a hero from his perspective and the point of view of his fellows, but his success pretty much doomed everybody.  Saving one bacterium cost them the world itself.  Silk and Severian have these moments too- Severian makes it pretty clear with his rhetoric even before Urth of the New Sun that he intends people to regard him as autarch and new sun, but his \"heroic\" effort pretty much destroys the world.  Silk sets up the exodus and then retreats for one woman, and everyone outside the whorl laments at how terrible things have gotten in his absence.  Can this salvation save them from what they truly are? \n\nInteresting position for heroes to be in - almost accomplishing as much degenerate bad as master villains, while villains like Typhon become more like stewards than one would suppose. This is part of why Wolfe's writing informed by religion is so much more interesting than a whole lot of other religious work. "
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}