{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6422", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6422, "subject": "HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2013-08-20T21:51:48+00:00", "last": "2013-08-21T14:13:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brian Doherty", "address": "brianmdoherty at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-20T21:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the end, I'm more convinced that this was (deliberately or not) his take\non a late-Heinlein feel novel. Skip and Chelle just seem like late Heinlein\ntypes, Chelle perhaps more vulgar-tough than the vulgar-sweet RAH would go\nfar. The dialog style, the heroism, the lawyerly machinations, all felt\nHeinlein. Skip, the aging noble man successful and choosing an ultimate\nsacrifice for both personal love and humanity....(presuming which I'm not\nsure I should that there IS something good for humanity about fighting the\nOs.)\n\nAlso in the end, I found myself liking it more than I expected i would from\nfirst 2/3. Not that the conclusion was anything bang up or that it raveled\nanything together in any WOW way, but just....I was really feeling the\nemotions of everything from the final diner scene when Skip showed up on.\n\nStill, what a PECULIAR book. So much felt, like, what? why? Particularly\nthe cinnamon toast scene at end. Loved it, but didn't...get the point. And\nas always with WOlfe, you feel dumb because you don't. Maybe it was simply\nto show how tough Chelle was but seemed late in narrative to take time for\nmere character-building.\n\nSome points I picked up I think mostly from this list:\n1) I believe it is either known or believed by some that Charles Blue is an\nOs. i missed even a hint at this. What's the clue/giveaway?\n2) Wolfean Q---given that we know SOME characters are brain scans in bodies\nother than ones born with, this makes me assume that some/many OTHERS are\ntoo. Do others agree, and who are top candidates?\n3) \"so that he can keep running into \"Charles Blue\" and keep forgetting\nabout it, and to show how nobody knows anything about anybody else -\nidentification has been lost in that world.\"---I did not pick up on this at\nall when relating to Blue, but saw a reminder of it in the \"lost\nwomen\"/Chelle diner scene. Is that because, again, MOST people in this\nworld end up in diff bodies they were born with/are way older because of\nrelativistic space effect?\n\nThis seems to me to be a Wolfe novel that's received the least detailed\ndiscussion of mysteries/meaning. If someone can guide me to source for\nsame, would appreciate it.\n\nBrian Doherty" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brian Doherty", "address": "brianmdoherty at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-21T00:09:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Couple of other HOME FIRES questions: I gather from end that Chelle fragged\na commander, but I don't see how this relates to what happens to her---you\nmerely get discharged for that? Or was she killed for it before the Sims\nmeld? Is this even the \"original\" Chelle's body? I mean, reaction of her\nold school friend and Skip indicate it is....\n\nAlso, are we supposed to guess/does it matter what secret Sims had that the\nspies wanted from Chelle? Pure Macguffin or significant?\n\nWhat would people say the theme/point of the novel is? The tenacity of\nlove? The fragility of identity? Or the tenacity of identity?\n\nBrian Doherty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:\nIn the end, I'm more convinced that this was (deliberately or not) his\ntake on a late-Heinlein feel novel. Skip and Chelle just seem like late\nHeinlein types, Chelle perhaps more vulgar-tough than the vulgar-sweet RAH\nwould go far. The dialog style, the heroism, the lawyerly machinations, all\nfelt Heinlein. Skip, the aging noble man successful and choosing an\nultimate sacrifice for both personal love and humanity....(presuming which\nI'm not sure I should that there IS something good for humanity about\nfighting the Os.)\n\nAlso in the end, I found myself liking it more than I expected i would\nfrom first 2/3. Not that the conclusion was anything bang up or that it\nraveled anything together in any WOW way, but just....I was really feeling\nthe emotions of everything from the final diner scene when Skip showed up\non.\n\nStill, what a PECULIAR book. So much felt, like, what? why? Particularly\nthe cinnamon toast scene at end. Loved it, but didn't...get the point. And\nas always with WOlfe, you feel dumb because you don't. Maybe it was simply\nto show how tough Chelle was but seemed late in narrative to take time for\nmere character-building.\n\nSome points I picked up I think mostly from this list:\n1) I believe it is either known or believed by some that Charles Blue is\nan Os. i missed even a hint at this. What's the clue/giveaway?\n2) Wolfean Q---given that we know SOME characters are brain scans in\nbodies other than ones born with, this makes me assume that some/many\nOTHERS are too. Do others agree, and who are top candidates?\n3) \"so that he can keep running into \"Charles Blue\" and keep forgetting\nabout it, and to show how nobody knows anything about anybody else -\nidentification has been lost in that world.\"---I did not pick up on this at\nall when relating to Blue, but saw a reminder of it in the \"lost\nwomen\"/Chelle diner scene. Is that because, again, MOST people in this\nworld end up in diff bodies they were born with/are way older because of\nrelativistic space effect?\n\nThis seems to me to be a Wolfe novel that's received the least detailed\ndiscussion of mysteries/meaning. If someone can guide me to source for\nsame, would appreciate it.\n\nBrian Doherty" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-08-21T00:53:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe the fragility of tenacity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:\nCouple of other HOME FIRES questions: I gather from end that Chelle\nfragged a commander, but I don't see how this relates to what happens to\nher---you merely get discharged for that? Or was she killed for it before\nthe Sims meld? Is this even the \"original\" Chelle's body? I mean, reaction\nof her old school friend and Skip indicate it is....\n\nAlso, are we supposed to guess/does it matter what secret Sims had that\nthe spies wanted from Chelle? Pure Macguffin or significant?\n\nWhat would people say the theme/point of the novel is? The tenacity of\nlove? The fragility of identity? Or the tenacity of identity?\n\nBrian Doherty\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the end, I'm more convinced that this was (deliberately or not) his\ntake on a late-Heinlein feel novel. Skip and Chelle just seem like late\nHeinlein types, Chelle perhaps more vulgar-tough than the vulgar-sweet RAH\nwould go far. The dialog style, the heroism, the lawyerly machinations, all\nfelt Heinlein. Skip, the aging noble man successful and choosing an\nultimate sacrifice for both personal love and humanity....(presuming which\nI'm not sure I should that there IS something good for humanity about\nfighting the Os.)\n\nAlso in the end, I found myself liking it more than I expected i would\nfrom first 2/3. Not that the conclusion was anything bang up or that it\nraveled anything together in any WOW way, but just....I was really feeling\nthe emotions of everything from the final diner scene when Skip showed up\non.\n\nStill, what a PECULIAR book. So much felt, like, what? why? Particularly\nthe cinnamon toast scene at end. Loved it, but didn't...get the point. And\nas always with WOlfe, you feel dumb because you don't. Maybe it was simply\nto show how tough Chelle was but seemed late in narrative to take time for\nmere character-building.\n\nSome points I picked up I think mostly from this list:\n1) I believe it is either known or believed by some that Charles Blue is\nan Os. i missed even a hint at this. What's the clue/giveaway?\n2) Wolfean Q---given that we know SOME characters are brain scans in\nbodies other than ones born with, this makes me assume that some/many\nOTHERS are too. Do others agree, and who are top candidates?\n3) \"so that he can keep running into \"Charles Blue\" and keep forgetting\nabout it, and to show how nobody knows anything about anybody else -\nidentification has been lost in that world.\"---I did not pick up on this at\nall when relating to Blue, but saw a reminder of it in the \"lost\nwomen\"/Chelle diner scene. Is that because, again, MOST people in this\nworld end up in diff bodies they were born with/are way older because of\nrelativistic space effect?\n\nThis seems to me to be a Wolfe novel that's received the least detailed\ndiscussion of mysteries/meaning. If someone can guide me to source for\nsame, would appreciate it.\n\nBrian Doherty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<350E481C-A605-43BE-9BE3-93511EC45E1C@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-08-21T01:21:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Originally I wanted to make a case that the guns in the voodoo ceremony represented certain characters. I am certain now the officers gun Chelle chooses indicates that Jane sims is the dominant compassionate one left in her body. Chelle acts to save not Skip but Sim's old flame. The secret was a weapon of some kind the various spy circles want, something of some immediate application in a world where trains travel at like thirty miles an hour. \n\nShe had to execute a spy who was the best noncom she knew. Skip is also an unknowing spy run by coleman baum-Charles blue- Chet burton. Skip kills his investigator zygment with his spy cell. This is why Chelle dwells on the gifts skip would bring - what would be behind them? No one knows themselves. The theme is that everyone is lost. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 20, 2013, at 5:53 PM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\nOr maybe the fragility of tenacity?\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 5:09 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Couple of other HOME FIRES questions: I gather from end that Chelle fragged a commander, but I don't see how this relates to what happens to her---you merely get discharged for that? Or was she killed for it before the Sims meld? Is this even the \"original\" Chelle's body? I mean, reaction of her old school friend and Skip indicate it is....\n\nAlso, are we supposed to guess/does it matter what secret Sims had that the spies wanted from Chelle? Pure Macguffin or significant?\n\nWhat would people say the theme/point of the novel is? The tenacity of love? The fragility of identity? Or the tenacity of identity?\n\nBrian Doherty\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In the end, I'm more convinced that this was (deliberately or not) his take on a late-Heinlein feel novel. Skip and Chelle just seem like late Heinlein types, Chelle perhaps more vulgar-tough than the vulgar-sweet RAH would go far. The dialog style, the heroism, the lawyerly machinations, all felt Heinlein. Skip, the aging noble man successful and choosing an ultimate sacrifice for both personal love and humanity....(presuming which I'm not sure I should that there IS something good for humanity about fighting the Os.)\n\nAlso in the end, I found myself liking it more than I expected i would from first 2/3. Not that the conclusion was anything bang up or that it raveled anything together in any WOW way, but just....I was really feeling the emotions of everything from the final diner scene when Skip showed up on.\n\nStill, what a PECULIAR book. So much felt, like, what? why? Particularly the cinnamon toast scene at end. Loved it, but didn't...get the point. And as always with WOlfe, you feel dumb because you don't. Maybe it was simply to show how tough Chelle was but seemed late in narrative to take time for mere character-building.\n\nSome points I picked up I think mostly from this list:\n1) I believe it is either known or believed by some that Charles Blue is an Os. i missed even a hint at this. What's the clue/giveaway?\n2) Wolfean Q---given that we know SOME characters are brain scans in bodies other than ones born with, this makes me assume that some/many OTHERS are too. Do others agree, and who are top candidates?\n3) \"so that he can keep running into \"Charles Blue\" and keep forgetting about it, and to show how nobody knows anything about anybody else - identification has been lost in that world.\"---I did not pick up on this at all when relating to Blue, but saw a reminder of it in the \"lost women\"/Chelle diner scene. Is that because, again, MOST people in this world end up in diff bodies they were born with/are way older because of relativistic space effect?\n\nThis seems to me to be a Wolfe novel that's received the least detailed discussion of mysteries/meaning. If someone can guide me to source for same, would appreciate it. \n\nBrian Doherty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1377048606.15410.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-08-21T01:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some points I picked up I think mostly from this list:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1) I believe it is either known or believed by some that Charles Blue is an Os. i missed even a hint at this. What's the clue/giveaway? \n2) Wolfean Q---given that we know SOME characters are brain scans in bodies other than ones born with, this makes me assume that some/many OTHERS are too. Do others agree, and who are top candidates?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) \"so that he can keep running into \"Charles Blue\" and keep forgetting about it, and to show how nobody knows anything about anybody else - identification has been lost in that world.\"---I did not pick up on this at all when relating to Blue, but saw a reminder of it in the \"lost women\"/Chelle diner scene. Is that because, again, MOST people in this world end up in diff bodies they were born with/are way older because of relativistic space effect?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure at all that this Charles Blue is Chelle's father. The old one was a fat, easily controlled man. This one is thin and in command. Skip runs into him AT LEAST two times on the ship, and at one point the old man and Skip talk about the?os and if they could just blow up one planet to win them all (thus the Sims weapon to destroy the world) or something to that effect. This is on page 57 and the man he is talking to is definitely Blue. He also runs into him much later in the looking for Jerry scene.\n\nThere is also the important discussion of how certain Asian spy groups don't even know that they are spies. This is almost certainly why Skip forgets the name of the man wearing Asian pants/shoes who runs the pawn shop or whatever where Chelle's mom gets the blade and why he can't remember running into \"Blue\" over and over. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1377048763.56252.YahooMailNeo@web160701.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-08-21T01:32:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I made a lot of comments in June\n\n\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2013-June/thread.html?\n\nYou might want to take a look at a few of the speculations there under the \"this week in google alerts\" heading\n\n\n________________________________\n From: Brian Doherty \nTo: urth at lists.urth.net \nSent: Tuesday, August 20, 2013 5:09 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)\n \n\n\nCouple of other HOME FIRES questions: I gather from end that Chelle fragged a commander, but I don't see how this relates to what happens to her---you merely get discharged for that? Or was she killed for it before the Sims meld? Is this even the \"original\" Chelle's body? I mean, reaction of her old school friend and Skip indicate it is....\n\nAlso, are we supposed to guess/does it matter what secret Sims had that the spies wanted from Chelle? Pure Macguffin or significant?\n\nWhat would people say the theme/point of the novel is? The tenacity of love? The fragility of identity? Or the tenacity of identity? \n\nBrian Doherty\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 2:51 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:\n\nIn the end, I'm more convinced that this was (deliberately or not) his take on a late-Heinlein feel novel. Skip and Chelle just seem like late Heinlein types, Chelle perhaps more vulgar-tough than the vulgar-sweet RAH would go far. The dialog style, the heroism, the lawyerly machinations, all felt Heinlein. Skip, the aging noble man successful and choosing an ultimate sacrifice for both personal love and humanity....(presuming which I'm not sure I should that there IS something good for humanity about fighting the Os.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also in the end, I found myself liking it more than I expected i would from first 2/3. Not that the conclusion was anything bang up or that it raveled anything together in any WOW way, but just....I was really feeling the emotions of everything from the final diner scene when Skip showed up on. \n\n\nStill, what a PECULIAR book. So much felt, like, what? why? Particularly the cinnamon toast scene at end. Loved it, but didn't...get the point. And as always with WOlfe, you feel dumb because you don't. Maybe it was simply to show how tough Chelle was but seemed late in narrative to take time for mere character-building. \n\n\nSome points I picked up I think mostly from this list:\n1) I believe it is either known or believed by some that Charles Blue is an Os. i missed even a hint at this. What's the clue/giveaway? \n2) Wolfean Q---given that we know SOME characters are brain scans in bodies other than ones born with, this makes me assume that some/many OTHERS are too. Do others agree, and who are top candidates?\n3) \"so that he can keep running into \"Charles Blue\" and keep forgetting about it, and to show how nobody knows anything about anybody else - identification has been lost in that world.\"---I did not pick up on this at all when relating to Blue, but saw a reminder of it in the \"lost women\"/Chelle diner scene. Is that because, again, MOST people in this world end up in diff bodies they were born with/are way older because of relativistic space effect? \n\n\nThis seems to me to be a Wolfe novel that's received the least detailed discussion of mysteries/meaning. If someone can guide me to source for same, would appreciate it.\n\nBrian Doherty " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1377049403.71482.YahooMailNeo@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-08-21T01:43:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "<350E481C-A605-43BE-9BE3-93511EC45E1C@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "also, Sims was a research scientist (physicist?) and made an officer super fast - clearly an important person to some. Perhaps this is why Skip feels so compelled to have Chelle, beyond his youthful romanticism, if he is indeed subconsciously a puppet." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5214CAFD.6060301@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2013-08-21T14:13:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) HOME FIRES finished thoughts (spoilers)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like \"the fragility of tenacity\" as well. But no novel has a single \ntheme or point.\n\nWolfe seems to always have something about the nature of love in his \nnovels, and there's something here as well. Skip remembers his past \nrelationship to Chelle as a great romance. He has cultivated and \nnurtured this memory, and it has grown into something of huge \nsignificance for him.\n\nBut not Chelle. She remembers a relatively recent childish affair, one \nthat happened not so long ago and has been eclipsed in intensity by \nwhatever happened to her in the war.\n\nSo one thing Wolfe is pointing to is the difference between the reality \nof a loving relationship and our romanticized ideas of what that might \nbe. He echoes that with the distinction between a contract and a \nwedding, a contracta and a wife.\n\nAnd this gives us a clue about why Skip goes off to the war at the end. \nHe has realized that somehow the big difference in lived experience \nneeds to be patched up, and, like many Wolfe heroes in love, sets out to \nbridge whatever differences are there. We are not told whether it will \nactually work; my guess is that it probably won't.\n\nOf course there's a lot more going on. Wolfe seems to take a basic story \n(and for all I know it could have been the idea I outlined above) and \nkeeps complicating it more and more, adding wrinkles and mysteries as he \ngoes. There's certainly a distopian element in the book, in which many \nfears about where we are going are made concrete. It's very close to \nbeing a hopeless world. Perhaps this is why being in love with Chelle is \nso central to Skip's own identity: he has little else left.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/20/2013 8:09 PM, Brian Doherty wrote:\nWhat would people say the theme/point of the novel is? The tenacity of \nlove? The fragility of identity? Or the tenacity of identity?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor and Chair\nDept. of Mathematics and Statistics\nColby College Editor, Carus Mathematical Monographs\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/publications/maa-reviews\n\nZounds! I was never so bethumped with words since I first called my brother's father dad.\n -- William Shakespeare, \"King John\"" } ] } ] }