silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels

On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: By now everyone know I actually think Wolfe creates symbols and "metaphors" that are actually extremely literal. Thus, Shadow Children riding Marshmen is the same as Shadow Children riding a man named Marsch (his name is misspelled in my copy as Marsh in the title "A Story by John V Marsh", which I feel might be intentional even if changed in later editions by copy editors). I've always felt that Silk felt particularly manipulated, and that this prompted his suicidal thoughts. Kypris is equated with mother, Hyacinth, and Mamelta in his dreams. I want to talk about the dancing toy that his mother makes move for him - I think this is a symbol of Silk, and that "mother" calls the shots. When he is enlightened, that female dove voice he hears has always resonated, in my mind, with Kypris, and when mamelta is awakened I have always posited that her claim, "We will be lovers" is not from Mucor (who was insistent that no sex with Silk would occur in their first meeting) but actually from somewhere else. It is Mother who makes the little toy dance, it is Kypris who calls Silk to join with her and Typhon in mainframe, it is Kypris in Hyacinth that compels Silk to love a prostitute at first, and I think it is Kypris' voice in the enlightenment (which can have a physical cause and still be serving the Outsider, just as the castle in the sky is a tent full of hot air in New Sun - it has a physical cause, even though Crane's explanation seems absurd, training us NOT to look for it). I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as gods is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas. Before his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below. While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy, that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the whorl. He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up. However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled by Mother. _______________________________________________

On Sun, 25 Aug 2013, Marc Aramini wrote: start their little clockwork plan in motion

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote: http://betweenletters.quora.com/14-Writers-Handwrite-Their-Writing-Advice-on-Their-Hands?ref=fb "Start the next one!" _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net

On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 3:21 PM, Fred Kiesche <godelescherbach at gmail.com>wrote: Excellent stuff. Passed it on to some fans of David Drake as well. On Mon, Aug 26, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com> wrote:

http://betweenletters.quora.com/14-Writers-Handwrite-Their-Writing-Advice-on-Their-Hands?ref=fb "Start the next one!" _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net

-- F.P. Kiesche III "Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble, scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at The Lensman's Children ( http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/). _______________________________________________

I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as gods

is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas. Before his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below. While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy, that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the whorl. He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up.

However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish

On Aug 26, 2013, at 7:51 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote: No dia 24/08/2013, ?s 16:45, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> escreveu:

I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as gods

Ahh, so I'm not the only only one finding this quite odd. Not that the pun itself is hard to come by - was it you who connected it to 'dog collar', or was it LB or James?), but it's too childish to stand on its own, I think.

is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas. Before his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below. While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy, that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the whorl. He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up.

There is somewhere Silk says he sometimes doesn't even trust the Outsider. I found that quite interesting.

However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish

A pulp trope, even - have characters vanish without warning just when you thought you'd start knowing a bit more about them. _______________________________________________

There is an odd kind of deciphering in long sun where Wolfe just says things outright (kypris is hyacinth is mamelta is chenille is mother) (because they are all literally possessed by kypris or are her physically, and she is his real mother) and I take the Gods in the tunnels as another one of those instances of just literal statement. There are gods in the tunnels.

On Aug 27, 2013, at 4:18 AM, "Gerry Quinn" <gerry at bindweed.com> wrote: From: Craig Brewer http://betweenletters.quora.com/14-Writers-Handwrite-Their-Writing-Advice-on-Their-Hands?ref=fb So Wolfe is left-handed? - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

On Aug 27, 2013, at 6:26 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: One of the oddest moments in New Sun comes when Severian reflects on how the language he uses is perspicuous, with one word having only one meaning, when the wording of every statement in new sun is ambiguous. "he was the smallest of those dead" - this is another example of the literal interpretation being the "right" one even though it doesn't fit the context. Grammatically it says Triskele (a three legged tripod used in worship of a sun god) is dead. Everything is heliocentric in the metaphors of new sun- the coast rises to meet the sun, etc. We know it can't be literally true because Triskele is alive, but the literal, coded message is that the Claw is not the actual source of healing. Does that make Severian and his dog ciphers? _______________________________________________

Gerry, I agree on the blasphemous inversion of mere dogs being called gods, but I think that too is a symbol of the presumptuous sleeping men who were called gods. That blind fellow in short sun who Horn runs into that reminds him so fiercely of Auk - there simply isn't an explanation for him if he is not in some way tenebrous Tartaros - I maintain the whorl is the ark where Typhon stored his family and his animals until the deluge receded.

If that makes the characters ciphers .... I just don't see them as that even if every once in a while a symbol reflects on an implied plot device. I think Wolfe is a symbolist who is not above employing complicated linguistic tricks playing with representation-actuality.

One of the oddest moments in New Sun comes when Severian reflects on how the language he uses is perspicuous, with one word having only one meaning, when the wording of every statement in new sun is ambiguous. "he was the smallest of those dead" - this is another example of the literal interpretation being the "right" one even though it doesn't fit the context. Grammatically it says Triskele (a three legged tripod used in worship of a sun god) is dead. Everything is heliocentric in the metaphors of new sun- the coast rises to meet the sun, etc. We know it can't be literally true because Triskele is alive, but the literal, coded message is that the Claw is not the actual source of healing. Does that make Severian and his dog ciphers?

Either way, there's a difference between the story being told by way of the characters (which is fine), and the characters internal lives existing only as vehicles for the telling (which is not).

Gerry Quinn: Is Silk not allowed to have whimsical thoughts that do not embody hard literal facts about the system, even when he is almost dreaming? Or does he exist only to convey details from Wolfe's pen to the reader's eye?

On 8/24/2013 1:12 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen wrote: 'He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up. However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled by Mother.' I think I agree with this. I don't think that Silk being shown in various ways to be a 'clockwork figure' is meant to convey that he definitely is and always will be. I think it indicates that some forces have that in mind for him as part of their master plan, but that the Outsider actually liberates Silk out of this simplistic pre-determinism into a responsive sort of agency as part of a 'greater plan' than the schemes of gods ontologically 'smaller' than the Outsider. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com <mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com>> wrote: By now everyone know I actually think Wolfe creates symbols and "metaphors" that are actually extremely literal. Thus, Shadow Children riding Marshmen is the same as Shadow Children riding a man named Marsch (his name is misspelled in my copy as Marsh in the title "A Story by John V Marsh", which I feel might be intentional even if changed in later editions by copy editors). I've always felt that Silk felt particularly manipulated, and that this prompted his suicidal thoughts. Kypris is equated with mother, Hyacinth, and Mamelta in his dreams. I want to talk about the dancing toy that his mother makes move for him - I think this is a symbol of Silk, and that "mother" calls the shots. When he is enlightened, that female dove voice he hears has always resonated, in my mind, with Kypris, and when mamelta is awakened I have always posited that her claim, "We will be lovers" is not from Mucor (who was insistent that no sex with Silk would occur in their first meeting) but actually from somewhere else. It is Mother who makes the little toy dance, it is Kypris who calls Silk to join with her and Typhon in mainframe, it is Kypris in Hyacinth that compels Silk to love a prostitute at first, and I think it is Kypris' voice in the enlightenment (which can have a physical cause and still be serving the Outsider, just as the castle in the sky is a tent full of hot air in New Sun - it has a physical cause, even though Crane's explanation seems absurd, training us NOT to look for it). I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as gods is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas. Before his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below. While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy, that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the whorl. He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up. However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled by Mother. _______________________________________________

On Aug 27, 2013, at 2:52 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote: Severian, for example, is totally a clockwork figure---but not forever, since he becomes a god. Silk too may be freer in Mainframe than in his body. On 8/24/2013 1:12 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen wrote:

'He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up. However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled by Mother.' I think I agree with this. I don't think that Silk being shown in various ways to be a 'clockwork figure' is meant to convey that he definitely is and always will be. I think it indicates that some forces have that in mind for him as part of their master plan, but that the Outsider actually liberates Silk out of this simplistic pre-determinism into a responsive sort of agency as part of a 'greater plan' than the schemes of gods ontologically 'smaller' than the Outsider. On Sat, Aug 24, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com <mailto:marcaramini at yahoo.com>> wrote: By now everyone know I actually think Wolfe creates symbols and "metaphors" that are actually extremely literal. Thus, Shadow Children riding Marshmen is the same as Shadow Children riding a man named Marsch (his name is misspelled in my copy as Marsh in the title "A Story by John V Marsh", which I feel might be intentional even if changed in later editions by copy editors). I've always felt that Silk felt particularly manipulated, and that this prompted his suicidal thoughts. Kypris is equated with mother, Hyacinth, and Mamelta in his dreams. I want to talk about the dancing toy that his mother makes move for him - I think this is a symbol of Silk, and that "mother" calls the shots. When he is enlightened, that female dove voice he hears has always resonated, in my mind, with Kypris, and when mamelta is awakened I have always posited that her claim, "We will be lovers" is not from Mucor (who was insistent that no sex with Silk would occur in their first meeting) but actually from somewhere else. It is Mother who makes the little toy dance, it is Kypris who calls Silk to join with her and Typhon in mainframe, it is Kypris in Hyacinth that compels Silk to love a prostitute at first, and I think it is Kypris' voice in the enlightenment (which can have a physical cause and still be serving the Outsider, just as the castle in the sky is a tent full of hot air in New Sun - it has a physical cause, even though Crane's explanation seems absurd, training us NOT to look for it). I think that the rather odd naming of the dogs in the tunnels as gods is indicative of exactly what it implies literally: the gods are in the tunnels - the sleepers behind the seals of Pas. Before his probably suicide attempt, Silk indicates that he is aware of his origins now and that he learned them in the time down below. While we can say this is just a statement about humanity and the whorl, I think it is personal - he realizes that the things which control him (Mother Kypris) are using him like that dancing toy, that his enlightenment might be spurious and predetermined in that gnostic universe (how quickly the chalk of Silk for Calde goes up after his enlightenment - I've always felt this overdetermined beginning is part of that "clock work figure" of Silk and the whorl. He realizes that he has very little freedom and it is all set up. However, Mamelta is swallowed by the giant fish, and I think this too is a symbol - that Kypris is subsumed by something far greater than herself, so that the englightenment, which Silk misinterprets at least once and possibly twice, serves the Outsider in the final analysis even if Pas and Kypris, the male and female voice, set it up as the spark that would start their little clockwork plan in motion, like the dancing toy controlled by Mother. _______________________________________________

Marc Aramini: Silk is the shepherd who puts others first, Severian the culler and the butcher whose salvation leaves only himself standing alone. I am still thinking that Typhon did more good for humanity in the long run than Severian... Maybe. So hard to say if the green man's future is even any good.

Gerry Quinn: Is Silk not allowed to have whimsical thoughts that do not embody hard literal facts about the system, even when he is almost dreaming? Or does he exist only to convey details from Wolfe's pen to the reader's eye?

Silk does only exist to convey details from Wolfe's pen to the reader's eye. We can never forget that, nor, I think, does Wolfe want us to.

This does not preclude Wolfe from wanting to depict Silk as a "realistic" person who sometimes has wandering, meandering thoughts which have no purpose or meaning in regard to the big picture of the story. It is the goal of many authors to create humanistic, "real" characters who are relatable to the reader. Somtimes this character development takes precedence over the plot and overarching themes. Is Wolfe is one of those authors?

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:58 AM Subject: (urth) silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels

On Wed, Aug 28, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> wrote: From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:58 AM Subject: (urth) silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels > In addition to what has already been posted about dogs as gods, I tend to take a meta-interpretation of it in addition to the other suggestions. Many agree that Wolfe inserts dogs and wolves throughout his stories as a sort of self-reference. Perhaps these dogs as gods is a reference to his own status as the creator of the universe we are inhabiting as we read. Wolfe's familiarity with gnostic principles seems unquestionable, so I don't think it escapes him that as he writes, he is functioning as a Demiurge. Perhaps the dogs/gods are a recognition that while he is the creator of this universe, he acknowledges that he is a false (and perhaps evil) god and that the one true, spiritual God above all should always be recognized foremost. _______________________________________________

________________________________ From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at yahoo.com> To: The Urth Mailing List <urth at lists.urth.net> Sent: Wednesday, August 28, 2013 12:10 PM Subject: Re: (urth) silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> To: "urth at urth.net" <urth at urth.net> Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2013 10:58 AM Subject: (urth) silk, the dancing toy, gods in the tunnels

In addition to what has already been posted about dogs as gods, I tend to take a meta-interpretation of it in addition to the other suggestions. Many agree that Wolfe inserts dogs and wolves throughout his stories as a sort of self-reference. Perhaps these dogs as gods is a reference to his own status as the creator of the universe we are inhabiting as we read. Wolfe's familiarity with gnostic principles seems unquestionable, so I don't think it escapes him that as he writes, he is functioning as a Demiurge. Perhaps the dogs/gods are a recognition that while he is the creator of this universe, he acknowledges that he is a false (and perhaps evil) god and that the one true, spiritual God above all should always be recognized foremost. ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? _______________________________________________

Gerry Quinn: True in a technical sense. The question, however, is whether some of those details relate to Silk as a character.

....all I have proposed is that Silk is endowed with a small amount of humanistic autonomy - the ability to occasionally dream random thoughts as he falls to sleep.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: One other thing about the dogs/gods -- given that they eat the sacrifices,are they a slam at priestly castes who grow fat on their flocks?

Marc Aramini: Lee, I take it back. I do feel that what he is doing in Long and Short Sun is actually directly related to his biography. Rosemary and Wolfe marry, and Plant Engineering provides for their future.

David Stockhoff: If there is any one thing about the Solar Cycle that truly and persistently amazes me, it is that Wolfe does indeed deploy literal meanings (and any or all possible puns orthogonal to those meanings) just as you say, Marc---perhaps especially when they are so obvious as to be invisible. And yet he also relies on myth for deep narrative structure AND psychological and descriptive realism. His characters are indeed puppets, often openly and significantly so, and yet feel almost real. (Maybe because we all feel like puppets sometimes.) Such complexity simply should not be possible. And yet bumblebees do fly!

Gerry Quinn: True in a technical sense. The question, however, is whether some of those details relate to Silk as a character.

....all I have proposed is that Silk is endowed? with a small amount of humanistic autonomy - the ability to occasionally dream random thoughts as he falls to sleep.

David Stockhoff: If there is any one thing about the Solar Cycle that truly and persistently amazes me, it is that Wolfe does indeed deploy literal meanings (and any or all possible puns orthogonal to those meanings) just as you say, Marc---perhaps especially when they are so obvious as to be invisible. And yet he also relies on myth for deep narrative structure AND psychological and descriptive realism. His characters are indeed puppets, often openly and significantly so, and yet feel almost real. (Maybe because we all feel like puppets sometimes.) Such complexity simply should not be possible. And yet bumblebees do fly!

On Thu, 29 Aug 2013, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: One other thing about the dogs/gods -- given that they eat the sacrifices, are they a slam at priestly castes who grow fat on their flocks?

Lee wrote:

"Whichever way makes it a better read for you".

maybe in an introduction and in a theory, but I have in the past received responses like "NO NO NO" from him ... just throwing that out there

It's puns all the way down. If there is any one thing about the Solar Cycle that truly and persistently amazes me, it is that Wolfe does indeed deploy literal meanings (and any or all possible puns orthogonal to those meanings) just as you say, Marc---perhaps especially when they are so obvious as to be invisible. And yet he also relies on myth for deep narrative structure AND psychological and descriptive realism. His characters are indeed puppets, often openly and significantly so, and yet feel almost real. (Maybe because we all feel like puppets sometimes.) Such complexity simply should not be possible. And yet bumblebees do fly!

Actually one of the darker scenes that recurs several times in Wolfe is a guy perceived as harmless kicking someone to deat (Blue Mouse, Silk and Jahlee, pretty sure Auk did it)

and I do wonder if there is an old personal experience or memory about that.

PS - (Silk kills Jahlee there, that's why it is so emotionally bizarre. Nettle knows that the man who has come back is not her husband anymore)

Marc Aramini: ..but I have in the past received responses like "NO NO NO" from him

Antonio Pedro Marques: But then again that may only mean he's got a whole different perspective from yours, that he wants you to know. It doesn't mean yours is wrong, it lives on its own merit. There are readings I feel cannot have been part of the author's intentions, but if they hadn't been put forward by someone, how would the rest of us come across by their charms?

...And a lot of the nuance is lost on me as a foreigner!