{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6431", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6431, "subject": "\"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "messages": 70, "voices": 12, "first": "2013-09-05T21:52:50+00:00", "last": "2013-09-11T16:46:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-05T21:52:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n - there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n - vulcanism has ceased\n - mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n - extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n - subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n - events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n - \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522905CD.2090309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-05T22:29:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"No moon\"? Am I missing something?\n\nAlso, this guy has written nothing I've ever heard of. I did find this, \nhowever:\n\nhttp://www.teleread.com/chris-meadows/sf-writer-paul-cook-warns-of-science-fictions-infection-by-girl-cooties/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/2013 5:52 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n - there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n - vulcanism has ceased\n - mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n - extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n - subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n - events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n - \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52290769.660c320a.7def.fffff916@mx.google.com>", "from": { "name": "Christopher Simon", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-05T22:36:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522905CD.2090309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors.\"\n\nKinda sexist too, isn't he?\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 5:52 PM\nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n - there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n - vulcanism has ceased\n - mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n - extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n - subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n - events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n - \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522908E8.9010301@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-05T22:42:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<52290769.660c320a.7def.fffff916@mx.google.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's another gem:\n\n\"(Let’s set aside the morality of investing our interest in a character \nwho tortures people. Remember, the violence in Wolfe is partially \ninfluenced by the overt violence in the early 1980s of Orson Scott Card. \n*Card’s touch is everywhere in these books.*)\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/2013 6:36 PM, Christopher Simon wrote:\n\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a \ngood thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find \nattractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, \ngossiping, and whispering in the corridors.\"\n\nKinda sexist too, isn't he?\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 5:52 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net \nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n- there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n- vulcanism has ceased\n- mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n- extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n- subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n- events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n- \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Urth", "address": "jordonflatourth at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-05T23:26:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522908E8.9010301@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't posted to the list in a long while, but reading this made me spit coffee all over the keyboard, in hilarity and horror. \"...a long fairy tale inserted inserted into the middle of the novel that goes nowhere and adds absolutely nothing...\"\n\nI pity anyone with him as a professor. I hope they all read this blog post.\n\nSent from my iPad" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 5, 2013, at 3:42 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHere's another gem:\n\n\"(Let’s set aside the morality of investing our interest in a character who tortures people. Remember, the violence in Wolfe is partially influenced by the overt violence in the early 1980s of Orson Scott Card. *Card’s touch is everywhere in these books.*)\"\n\nOn 9/5/2013 6:36 PM, Christopher Simon wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors.\"\n\nKinda sexist too, isn't he?\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 5:52 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net \nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n- there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n- vulcanism has ceased\n- mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n- extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n- subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n- events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n- \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378428116.72934.YahooMailNeo@web162805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T00:41:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been teaching literature for over 15 years, and suddenly I feel very confident in my abilities....\n \n\n \n\nI haven't posted to the list in a long while, but reading this made me spit coffee all over the keyboard, in hilarity and horror. \"...a long fairy tale inserted inserted into the middle of the novel that goes nowhere and adds absolutely nothing...\"\n\nI pity anyone with him as a professor. I hope they all read this blog post.\n\nSent from my iPad" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 5, 2013, at 3:42 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHere's another gem:\n\n\"(Let’s set aside the morality of investing our interest in a character who tortures people. Remember, the violence in Wolfe is partially influenced by the overt violence in the early 1980s of Orson Scott Card. *Card’s touch is everywhere in these books.*)\"\n\nOn 9/5/2013 6:36 PM, Christopher Simon wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors.\"\n\nKinda sexist too, isn't he?\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 5:52 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net \nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n- there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n- vulcanism has ceased\n- mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n- extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n- subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n- events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n- \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52292e9b.450d320a.7576.026a@mx.google.com>", "from": { "name": "Christopher Simon", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T01:23:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378428116.72934.YahooMailNeo@web162805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I highly doubt Cook actually read BOTNS. He seems to have barely skimmed, picked a few elements, and gone nuts. Seriously, how can you miss the etymological root of \"Lune\"? Makes me think he didn't read enough to see it mentioned.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: \"Urth\" \nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 7:27 PM\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nSubject: Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nI haven't posted to the list in a long while, but reading this made me spit coffee all over the keyboard, in hilarity and horror. \"...a long fairy tale inserted inserted into the middle of the novel that goes nowhere and adds absolutely nothing...\"\n\nI pity anyone with him as a professor. I hope they all read this blog post.\n\nSent from my iPad" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 5, 2013, at 3:42 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHere's another gem:\n\n\"(Let’s set aside the morality of investing our interest in a character who tortures people. Remember, the violence in Wolfe is partially influenced by the overt violence in the early 1980s of Orson Scott Card. *Card’s touch is everywhere in these books.*)\"\n\nOn 9/5/2013 6:36 PM, Christopher Simon wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors.\"\n\nKinda sexist too, isn't he?\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 5:52 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net \nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n- there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n- vulcanism has ceased\n- mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n- extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n- subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n- events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n- \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T01:41:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<52292e9b.450d320a.7576.026a@mx.google.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Saw this first on facebook. After I read the article and realized the\ncomments were closed, I left a comment on David Langford's FB post linking\nto it. In my comment I mentioned this person's inaccurate assumption that\nthere is no moon in the New Sun world. The fact that it's green makes this\nperson's comments even funnier. And Orson Scott Card? Please." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 5, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Christopher Simon\nwrote:\n I highly doubt Cook actually read BOTNS. He seems to have barely\nskimmed, picked a few elements, and gone nuts. Seriously, how can you miss\nthe etymological root of \"Lune\"? Makes me think he didn't read enough to\nsee it mentioned.\n ------------------------------\nFrom: Urth \nSent: 9/5/2013 7:27 PM\n\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nI haven't posted to the list in a long while, but reading this made me\nspit coffee all over the keyboard, in hilarity and horror. \"...a long\nfairy tale inserted inserted into the middle of the novel that goes nowhere\nand adds absolutely nothing...\"\n\nI pity anyone with him as a professor. I hope they all read this blog\npost.\n\nSent from my iPad\n\nOn Sep 5, 2013, at 3:42 PM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's another gem:\n\n\"(Let’s set aside the morality of investing our interest in a character\nwho tortures people. Remember, the violence in Wolfe is partially\ninfluenced by the overt violence in the early 1980s of Orson Scott Card." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Card’s touch is everywhere in these books.*)\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/5/2013 6:36 PM, Christopher Simon wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good\nthing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering\nin the corridors.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Kinda sexist too, isn't he?\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSent: 9/5/2013 5:52 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net \nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including\nBOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor\nsfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n- there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n- vulcanism has ceased\n- mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n- extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n- subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n- events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n- \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378442246.57552.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T04:37:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<52290769.660c320a.7def.fffff916@mx.google.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You left out the best part of that quotation.\n\n\"But the romance elements creep in very early on. Bujold tips her hand in\n the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention\n to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, \nmilitary dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the \ncorridors. All of this is right out of Alexander Dumas.\"\n\nCook has just proved that Alexandre Dumas was a woman.\n\nI supposed the violence in pre-1977 Wolfe is influenced by the shadow of Card thrown backward in time.\n\nThe part about volcanoes, mountain building, and subduction, though, is probably based on \"I remembered that we rowed across the crater of a volcano. Might it not have been the Cumaean's kettle? Urth's fires were long dead, as Master Malrubius had taught us...\" I don't know of anything that contradicts that--is there something?\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Christopher Simon \nTo: The Urth Mailing List ; \"urth at urth.net\" \nSent: Thursday, September 5, 2013 4:36 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\n\n\n\"Bujold tips her hand in the eloquence of her language (normally a good thing) and the attention to detail that only women would find attractive: balls, courts, military dress, palace intrigues, gossiping, and whispering in the corridors.\"\n\nKinda sexist too, isn't he?\n\n________________________________\nFrom: Jeff Wilson\nSent: ?9/?5/?2013 5:52 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\nPaul Cook has a ranty go at books he doesn't consider SF, including BOTNS.\nHe considers the presence of medieval and Arthurian tropes with poor sfnal\nworld building like the Urth failing to wobble from the lack of a moon\n(!!) to be false advertising.\n\nhttp://amazingstoriesmag.com/2013/09/science-fiction-science-fiction/\n\nAlas, the site editor has blocked comments after a torrent of\ncoutner-ranting, but has offered to publish a suitably impersonal\ncounter-column submission.\n\nWould anyone like to join me in compiling some quotes and citations that\npoke holes in some of his underinformed opinions?\n\nin particular:\n\n- there's no moon, so the earth should wobble\n- vulcanism has ceased\n- mountain raising (tectonics) has ceased\n- extreme antiquity (millions or billions of years)\n- subduction zones have stopped removing carbon from the atmosphere\n- events in vast antiquity not referred to, antiquity \"not used\"\n- \"Book Two has a long fairy tale inserted in the middle of the novel\nthat goes absolutely nowhere and adds nothing to the novel\"\n\nIt would be best to stick to the original 4 volumes and the pre-Urth\nshort-stories if we can.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378442415.74331.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T04:40:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<52292e9b.450d320a.7576.026a@mx.google.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He certainly missed the sentence \"When I had first come to realize, as a boy, that the green circle of the moon was in fact a sort of island hung in the sky, whose color derived from \nforests, now immemorially old, planted in the earliest days of the race \nof Man, I had formed an intention of going there...\"? SotL, Ch. XIII.\n\nJerry Friedman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Christopher Simon " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T07:36:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378428116.72934.YahooMailNeo@web162805.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, September 5, 2013 19:41, Craig Brewer wrote:\nI've been teaching literature for over 15 years, and suddenly I feel very\nconfident in my abilities...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I look forward to the time when I accumulate sufficient years to become\ninfallible as well." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2FBB1E4F-7B79-4569-A0E6-9234F13E15B5@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T14:02:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 6, 2013, at 12:36 AM, \"Jeff Wilson\" wrote:\n\nOn Thu, September 5, 2013 19:41, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've been teaching literature for over 15 years, and suddenly I feel very\nconfident in my abilities...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I look forward to the time when I accumulate sufficient years to become\ninfallible as well.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5E579FE824864C0E882BA6E65D6C3D51@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T15:45:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378442415.74331.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the Moon has no atmosphere — forests couldn’t grow there!\n\nSeriously, why bother responding? The guy is plainly clueless about any SF that exists outside very limited parameters. There are enough comments already pointing that out to him. \n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \n\nHe certainly missed the sentence \"When I had first come to realize, as a boy, that the green circle of the moon was in fact a sort of island hung in the sky, whose color derived from forests, now immemorially old, planted in the earliest days of the race of Man, I had formed an intention of going there...\" SotL, Ch. XIII." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T15:58:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<5E579FE824864C0E882BA6E65D6C3D51@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, September 6, 2013 10:45, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nBut the Moon has no atmosphere — forests couldn’t grow there!\n\nSeriously, why bother responding? The guy is plainly clueless about any\nSF that exists outside very limited parameters. There are enough comments\nalready pointing that out to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt Cook is salvageable, but the site editor might be. He seems\nwilling to defend Cook against \"ad hominem\" attacks, but a list of quotes\nobviously referring to the green Lune and some further factual examples of\nCook's unclued bogosity might be more persuasuive." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin B. Smith", "address": "robinbsmith at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T16:00:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<5E579FE824864C0E882BA6E65D6C3D51@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's already gotten more attention than it deserves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 6, 2013 at 10:45 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n But the Moon has no atmosphere — forests couldn’t grow there!\n\nSeriously, why bother responding? The guy is plainly clueless about any\nSF that exists outside very limited parameters. There are enough comments\nalready pointing that out to him.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n *From:* Jerry Friedman \n\n He certainly missed the sentence \"When I had first come to realize, as a\nboy, that the green circle of the moon was in fact a sort of island hung in\nthe sky, whose color derived from forests, now immemorially old, planted in\nthe earliest days of the race of Man, I had formed an** intention of\ngoing there...\" SotL, Ch. XIII.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378487465.9422.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T17:11:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson jwilson at clueland.com\nOn Fri, September 6, 2013 10:45, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But the Moon has no atmosphere — forests couldn’t grow there!\n\nSeriously, why bother responding? The guy is plainly clueless about any\nSF that exists outside very limited parameters. There are enough comments\nalready pointing that out to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt Cook is salvageable, but the site editor might be. He seems\nwilling to defend Cook against \"ad hominem\" attacks, but a list of quotes\nobviously referring to the green Lune and some further factual examples of\nCook's unclued bogosity might be more persuasuive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Persuade the editor to do what???Not let Cook write any more columns for him? That might work. The only reason to publish nonsense is that it's effective trolling, and since the editor closed the comments, he's probably not in favor of trolling.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378489682.63899.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T17:48:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378442246.57552.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The part about volcanoes, mountain building, and subduction, though, is probably based on \"I remembered that we rowed across the crater of a volcano. Might it not have been the Cumaean's kettle? Urth's fires were long dead, as Master Malrubius had taught us...\" I don't know of anything that contradicts that--is there something?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ".\nBy the way, Cook has this part backwards. He writes, \"without vulcanism and tectonic plate induction in the ocean, carbon dioxide would not be removed from the atmosphere and recycled into the mantle where it can stay out of the atmosphere and not smother life.\"? However, subduction and vulcanism return carbon dioxide to the atmosphere after it's been sequestered in calcium carbonate on the sea floor. Without plate tectonics, the atmosphere would lose all its carbon dioxide in a million years.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=sZgB52BCa0UC&pg=PA173\n\nIf Urth's tectonic activity has in fact stopped, then Wolfe does fail to address the problem of disappearing carbon dioxide--if it was known when he was writing. On the other hand, despite Severian's speculation that tectonicism might have stopped before the evolution of humanity, the actual stopping time might be much less than a million years before his time.\n\nOf course, Erebus and Abaia might be scouring?extracting the CO2 from?oceanic calcium carbonate?to keep the ecosystem going, and their reason for wanting to enslave humanity might be only that they need humans to help with this process. Shortsighted of Severian not to go along.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378490680.98874.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-06T18:04:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378489682.63899.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting thought. Could the New Sun restart Urth's tectonic activity and thus its CO2 cycle? Would that put Floodmaster Severian and the Evil Twins on the same side?\n\n\nAs it happens, I'm reading an old Poul Anderson story about terraforming Venus. The colonists intend to flood the planet by starting up its dead vulcanism, releasing the water supposedly trapped in the mantle and spreading it across the surface. They also are busy converting the paraformaldehyde/CO2 atmosphere into water and oxygen.\n\nNow THAT'S science fiction! None of this silly torturer nonsense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, September 6, 2013 1:48 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The part about volcanoes, mountain building, and subduction, though, is probably based on \"I remembered that we rowed across the crater of a volcano. Might it not have been the Cumaean's kettle? Urth's fires were long dead, as Master Malrubius had taught us...\" I don't know of anything that contradicts that--is there something?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".\nBy the way, Cook has this part backwards. He writes, \"without vulcanism and tectonic plate induction in the ocean, carbon dioxide would not be removed from the atmosphere and recycled into the mantle where it can stay out of the atmosphere and not smother life.\"? However, subduction and vulcanism return carbon dioxide to the atmosphere after it's been sequestered in calcium carbonate on the sea floor. Without plate tectonics, the atmosphere would lose all its carbon dioxide in a million years.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=sZgB52BCa0UC&pg=PA173\n\nIf Urth's tectonic activity has in fact stopped, then Wolfe does fail to address the problem of disappearing carbon dioxide--if it was known when he was writing. On the other hand, despite Severian's speculation that tectonicism might have stopped before the evolution of humanity, the actual stopping time might be much less than a million years before his time.\n\nOf course, Erebus and Abaia might be scouring?extracting the CO2 from?oceanic calcium carbonate?to keep the ecosystem going, and their reason for wanting to enslave humanity might be only that they need humans to help with this process. Shortsighted of Severian not to go along.\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378492083.79574.YahooMailNeo@web120405.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-06T18:28:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378490680.98874.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Edit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: DAVID STOCKHOFF \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, September 6, 2013 2:04 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\n\n\nInteresting thought. Could the New Sun restart Urth's tectonic activity and thus its CO2 cycle? Would that put Floodmaster Severian and the Evil Twins on the same side?\n\n\n\nAs it happens, I'm reading an old Poul Anderson story about terraforming Venus. The colonists intend to flood the planet by starting up its dead vulcanism [with hydrogen bombs], releasing the water supposedly trapped in the mantle and spreading it across the surface. They also are busy converting the paraformaldehyde/CO2 atmosphere into water and oxygen.\n\n\nNow THAT'S science fiction! None of this silly torturer nonsense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "________________________________\nFrom: Jerry Friedman \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Friday, September 6, 2013 1:48 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The part about volcanoes, mountain building, and subduction, though, is probably based on \"I remembered that we rowed across the crater of a volcano. Might it not have been the Cumaean's kettle? Urth's fires were long dead, as Master Malrubius had taught us...\" I don't know of anything that contradicts that--is there something?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ".\nBy the way, Cook has this part backwards. He writes, \"without\n vulcanism and tectonic plate induction in the ocean, carbon dioxide would not be removed from the atmosphere and recycled into the mantle where it can stay out of the atmosphere and not smother life.\"? However, subduction and vulcanism return carbon dioxide to the atmosphere after it's been sequestered in calcium carbonate on the sea floor. Without plate tectonics, the atmosphere would lose all its carbon dioxide in a million years.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=sZgB52BCa0UC&pg=PA173\n\nIf Urth's tectonic activity has in fact stopped, then Wolfe does fail to address the problem of disappearing carbon dioxide--if it was known when he was writing. On the other hand, despite Severian's speculation that tectonicism might have stopped before the evolution of humanity, the actual stopping time might be much less than a\n million years before his time.\n\nOf course, Erebus and Abaia might be scouring?extracting the CO2 from?oceanic calcium carbonate?to keep the ecosystem going, and their reason for wanting to enslave humanity might be only that they need humans to help with this process. Shortsighted of Severian not to go along.\n\nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-06T20:44:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thoughts exactly. Terra is full of blabbering conceited illiterates. Which one are y'all going to hammer sense into next? \n\nNo dia 06/09/2013, ?s 17:00, \"Robin B. Smith\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's already gotten more attention than it deserves." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522A4070.4070407@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-09-06T20:52:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378489682.63899.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "J\n\n\nTo me one of the strongest points that can be used to rebuff Cook (who \nreally seems to me a pompous idiot)\nis that most of the answers can be found in BOTNs itself - like Lune \n(the moon) he overlooked.\n\nI think one of the aspects of the world described by Wolfe is loss of \nmemory/unreliability of information\nSeverian gets from others. Not long before, in times of Typhon, \nscientific information was much\nmore available. So, why should we/he believe that plate tectonics and \nvolcanism really stopped?\nAnd if it stopped, why? Maybe Erebus, Abaia etc; have their role in \nthat? Who knows where\n(how deep) their roots now are? But this fuzzy world picture is part of \nwhat Wolfe describes!\n\nAnd poor Cook thinks that our actual theories (like plate tectonics \nrecycling CO2) are absolute truth?\n\nAccording to the story of Cyriaca recently Urth was controlled by \nmachines. Could they not\n(until recently) recycle all CO2? I think a very convincing answer may \nbe built just on\ncareful reading of BOTNs itself.\n\nCheers\n\nSergei Soloviev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "erry Friedman wrote:\nThe part about volcanoes, mountain building, and subduction, though, is probably based on \"I remembered that we rowed across the crater of a volcano. Might it not have been the Cumaean's kettle? Urth's fires were long dead, as Master Malrubius had taught us...\" I don't know of anything that contradicts that--is there something?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": ".\nBy the way, Cook has this part backwards. He writes, \"without vulcanism and tectonic plate induction in the ocean, carbon dioxide would not be removed from the atmosphere and recycled into the mantle where it can stay out of the atmosphere and not smother life.\" However, subduction and vulcanism return carbon dioxide to the atmosphere after it's been sequestered in calcium carbonate on the sea floor. Without plate tectonics, the atmosphere would lose all its carbon dioxide in a million years.\n \nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=sZgB52BCa0UC&pg=PA173\n \nIf Urth's tectonic activity has in fact stopped, then Wolfe does fail to address the problem of disappearing carbon dioxide--if it was known when he was writing. On the other hand, despite Severian's speculation that tectonicism might have stopped before the evolution of humanity, the actual stopping time might be much less than a million years before his time.\n \nOf course, Erebus and Abaia might be scouring extracting the CO2 from oceanic calcium carbonate to keep the ecosystem going, and their reason for wanting to enslave humanity might be only that they need humans to help with this process. Shortsighted of Severian not to go along.\n \nJerry Friedman\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5B8EEAEF-B206-4F5D-A277-349B6C60AD19@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T00:04:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522A4070.4070407@irit.fr>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 06/09/2013, ?s 21:52, Sergei SOLOVIEV escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "J\n\n\nTo me one of the strongest points that can be used to rebuff Cook (who really seems to me a pompous idiot)\nis that most of the answers can be found in BOTNs itself - like Lune (the moon) he overlooked.\n\nI think one of the aspects of the world described by Wolfe is loss of memory/unreliability of information\nSeverian gets from others. Not long before, in times of Typhon, scientific information was much\nmore available. So, why should we/he believe that plate tectonics and volcanism really stopped?\nAnd if it stopped, why? Maybe Erebus, Abaia etc; have their role in that? Who knows where\n(how deep) their roots now are? But this fuzzy world picture is part of what Wolfe describes!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The person in question seems simple enough to think that if a character tells us some factoid about their world, then it must be so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And poor Cook thinks that our actual theories (like plate tectonics recycling CO2) are absolute truth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that, alas, he is not alone. There are plenty of folks who think 'science' has got it all figured out. Usually, it's people who know very little of 'science' but like it a lot anyway." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5926aa8f61ebe5603f31f13061ed91f9.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T04:26:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, September 6, 2013 15:44, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nMy thoughts exactly. Terra is full of blabbering conceited illiterates.\nWhich one are y'all going to hammer sense into next?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not the blabberer, the blabberer's gatekeeper. That is, taking a\nsufficiently persuasive rebuttal to the site editor that he asks the guy\nto clean up his act. I'm sure you would agree that a writer is more likely\nto heed their editor than a random reader?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T04:39:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378490680.98874.YahooMailNeo@web120406.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, September 6, 2013 13:04, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nInteresting thought. Could the New Sun restart Urth's tectonic activity\nand thus its CO2 cycle? Would that put Floodmaster Severian and the Evil\nTwins on the same side?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure if we've discussed it recently, but I believe the tectonic\nissues are moot because Sev's recognition of constellations from his era\nbeing visible over Apu Punchau's pampa put an upper limit of 50,000 -\n100,000 years between them, due to apparent motion of the stars over time.\n\nhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_4/January_1874/Past_and_Future_of_a_Constellation\n\nSo, there's not enough time for current vulcanism to run down." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378576374.62506.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T17:52:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nTo: DAVID STOCKHOFF ; The Urth Mailing List \n\nOn Fri, September 6, 2013 13:04, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting thought. Could the New Sun restart Urth's tectonic activity\nand thus its CO2 cycle? Would that put Floodmaster Severian and the Evil\nTwins on the same side?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if we've discussed it recently, but I believe the tectonic\nissues are moot because Sev's recognition of constellations from his era\nbeing visible over Apu Punchau's pampa put an upper limit of 50,000 -\n100,000 years between them, due to apparent motion of the stars over time.\n\nhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_4/January_1874/Past_and_Future_of_a_Constellation\n\nSo, there's not enough time for current vulcanism to run down." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember TUotNS well at all. Are you saying that we know plate tectonics was still going on in Apu-Punchau's time?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378576450.53295.YahooMailNeo@web124503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T17:54:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<5926aa8f61ebe5603f31f13061ed91f9.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, September 6, 2013 15:44, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " My thoughts exactly. Terra is full of blabbering conceited illiterates.\n Which one are y'all going to hammer sense into next?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not the blabberer, the blabberer's gatekeeper. That is, taking a\nsufficiently persuasive rebuttal to the site editor that he asks the guy\nto clean up his act. I'm sure you would agree that a writer is more likely\nto heed their editor than a random reader?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd help with this.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<97bf025e23cfe2a8d18b376d785029c2.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T18:31:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378576374.62506.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, September 7, 2013 12:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nTo: DAVID STOCKHOFF ; The Urth Mailing List\n\n\nOn Fri, September 6, 2013 13:04, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Interesting thought. Could the New Sun restart Urth's tectonic activity\nand thus its CO2 cycle? Would that put Floodmaster Severian and the\nEvil\nTwins on the same side?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure if we've discussed it recently, but I believe the tectonic\nissues are moot because Sev's recognition of constellations from his era\nbeing visible over Apu Punchau's pampa put an upper limit of 50,000 -\n100,000 years between them, due to apparent motion of the stars over\ntime.\n\nhttp://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Popular_Science_Monthly/Volume_4/January_1874/Past_and_Future_of_a_Constellation\n\nSo, there's not enough time for current vulcanism to run down." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember TUotNS well at all. Are you saying that we know plate\ntectonics was still going on in Apu-Punchau's time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no reason to think they would have stopped any earlier for\nnatural, gradual reasons. A loose black bean might be involved somehow,\nbut evem if that took effect instantly, it would still be taking effect\ninstantly in Typhon's time, barely a thousand years before Sev's.\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth in\nsomewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD), so\nthe idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time necessary\nto be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters. But they have\n(or so it suits the translator G.W. to use) different works for mountain\nand volcano, and the crater lake of the averns is distinguished in kind\nfrom the mountain lake Diuturna, which seems off for such a living\nlangauge to make plain if this is distinction found in a prehistoric\ndetail of natural history.\n\nSubtextually, Erebus in the south is very, very suggestive of Mt Erebus,\nthe Antarctic volcano of our contemporal activity. There may be other,\noblique references to vulcanism seen by human eyes in the books, but I'd\nhave to hunt, or check the Lexicon, or both." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0072efa75b2b5414eff2468557caeb6a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-07T18:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378576374.62506.YahooMailNeo@web124501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, September 7, 2013 12:52, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nI don't remember TUotNS well at all. Are you saying that we know plate\ntectonics was still going on in Apu-Punchau's time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha! When Severian is struck by the Jailers' weapon, Urth trembles and the\ncurtain wall section falls to match its place in his native time. His\nsurvival is attributed to the earthquake knocking him out of the line of\nfire or otherwise spoiling the gunner's aim, and everyone goes about their\nbusiness. Ergo, earthquakes are known in Typhon's time and common enough\nin the area of Nessus that the inhabitants have become accustomed to them.\n\nThis is all described in URTH, however, and may indeed be a belated patch\non previous BOTNS continuity as I expect the entire cyclic time thing is,\nunless we can find something in the first four volumes. The crooked\nsundial in Valeria's courtyard might be evidence....\n\nAnyone recall any stuck doors or such mentioned?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378614309.6288.YahooMailNeo@web124502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T04:25:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<5B8EEAEF-B206-4F5D-A277-349B6C60AD19@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 06/09/2013, ?s 21:52, Sergei SOLOVIEV escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " To me one of the strongest points that can be used to rebuff Cook (who \nreally seems to me a pompous idiot)\n is that most of the answers can be found in BOTNs itself - like Lune (the \nmoon) he overlooked.\n\n I think one of the aspects of the world described by Wolfe is loss of \nmemory/unreliability of information\n Severian gets from others. Not long before, in times of Typhon, scientific \ninformation was much\n more available. So, why should we/he believe that plate tectonics and \nvolcanism really stopped?\n And if it stopped, why? Maybe Erebus, Abaia etc; have their role in that? \nWho knows where (how deep) their roots now are?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or whether they have roots?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But this fuzzy world picture is part of what Wolfe describes!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The person in question seems simple enough to think that if a character tells us \nsome factoid about their world, then it must be so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics to exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to tell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " And poor Cook thinks that our actual theories (like plate tectonics \nrecycling CO2) are absolute truth?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In that, alas, he is not alone. There are plenty of folks who think \n'science' has got it all figured out. Usually, it's people who know \nvery little of 'science' but like it a lot anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard to dispute that plate tectonics recycles CO2, since carbonate-containing rocks get subducted close to volcanoes that discharge CO2. The part that science might not have completely figured out is whether there are or could be other recycling mechanisms. Indeed, presumably with the genetic engineering that created the anpiels and dog-men and so forth, previous ages could have developed organisms that release CO2 from calcium carbonates on the ocean floor.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378614847.85392.YahooMailNeo@web124504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T04:34:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<0072efa75b2b5414eff2468557caeb6a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But they have\n(or so it suits the translator G.W. to use) different works for mountain\nand volcano, and the crater lake of the averns is distinguished in kind\nfrom the mountain lake Diuturna, which seems off for such a living\nlangauge to make plain if this is distinction found in a prehistoric\ndetail of natural history." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have words for geological features caused by glaciers, though the people who use those words aren't expecting another Ice Age any time soon. Also, Severian doesn't bother to specify \"extinct volcano\", which I think he'd do if he believed there were active volcanoes around.\n\n[next post]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Aha! When Severian is struck by the Jailers' weapon, Urth trembles and the\ncurtain wall section falls to match its place in his native time. His\nsurvival is attributed to the earthquake knocking him out of the line of\nfire or otherwise spoiling the gunner's aim, and everyone goes about their\nbusiness. Ergo, earthquakes are known in Typhon's time and common enough\nin the area of Nessus that the inhabitants have become accustomed to them.\n\nThis is all described in URTH," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it's irrelevant to Cook. I imagine most here will take it as evidence, though. Then an interesting question, as I said in my previous post, is how it makes the book better for Severian (or his source, Master Malrubius) to be lying or mistaken.\n\nIf TBotNS takes place a mere million years after (the analog of) our time, which Michael Andre-Driussi suggests is around an upper limit, I agree that there's no time for plate tectonics to come to a complete stop naturally. As Sergei Soloviev says, the question is why it happened. We might speculatively blame whoever put the black hole in the sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "however, and may indeed be a belated patch\non previous BOTNS continuity as I expect the entire cyclic time thing is,\nunless we can find something in the first four volumes. The crooked\nsundial in Valeria's courtyard might be evidence...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the other hand, abandoned buildings in Nessus and giant humanoid sun-facing statues seem to last indefinitely." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyone recall any stuck doors or such mentioned?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do earthquakes cause doors to get stuck?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522C7085.3060202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-08T12:41:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378614309.6288.YahooMailNeo@web124502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/8/2013 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nWell, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics to exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to tell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth in\nsomewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD), so\nthe idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time necessary\nto be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters.\n\n\nWe've seen plenty of evidence that Wolfe gleaned gems from the \nhistorical trash heap of incorrect comprehensions of the physical \nuniverse in writing BNS. In fact, one could take it a step further and \nsay that his universe is entirely created from such pulpy cliches---\n\nby which I mean to make a direct literary connection, because the pulp \nSF Wolfe admires, from Cthulhu to, I don't know, maybe Flash Gordon and \nbeyond, consists almost entirely of disproven scientific assumptions. \nLook at how the surface environment of Venus has been (mis)conceived \nthroughout the history of SF.\n\n---knowing full well that they do not fit well together. Two other \nwell-known cases of this are Severian's comments about geological strata \nand the various genetic theories of 5HC, which Lee has identified as \nBNS's thematic precursor. Would this not, in Wolfe's thinking, parallel \nall the valid but imperfect understandings of the *nonphysical \n*universe? It's all the same, on other words---the science we believe \ntoday will be the superstition of tomorrow.\n\nSo yes, it makes the book better.\n\nAlso, \"death\" is perhaps a relative term on a geologic time scale. In \nour time, small volcanic islands are created before our eyes. In \nSeverian's, this may no longer occur, but the plates could experience \nsettling for quite some time after the primary tectonic activity has \neither ceased or simply decreased enough that most people assume Urth is \ndead, because all the volcanoes are. Thus the earthquakes in Typhon's time." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T13:19:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522C7085.3060202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics\nto exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to\ntell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?\n\nI'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth\n in somewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD),\n so the idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time\nnecessary to be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wasn't that prior to the discovery of radioactivity, though? [The limited \nlifespan that the Sun would have if its energy output were based on chemical \nor gravitational processes was also considered a problem for evolutionary \ntheory, which required a longer timescale. But the Sun actually operates on \nnuclear fusion, and nuclear fission continues to heat the Earth internally.]\n\nHowever I agree that Wolfe doesn't necessarily care where a scientific \nconcept comes from. And he leaves matters intentionally vague; his motto is \nthat the reader should not be able to disprove the scientific possibililty \nof something (e.g. the gigantic godlings) as they do not have quite enough \ninformation to locate them in specific well-understood physical models. I \ndo not think he always succeeds perfectly in this endeavour, but he does \npretty well, and the reader should not fret to much about seeming scientific \ncontradictions (or worse, build complex metaphysical hypotheses based on \nthem).\n\nOne thing that strikes me is that the New Sun explicitly seems to restore \nthe tectonic activity of Urth. This is predicted in the play of Dr. Talos \n(\"continents will founder\", etc.), and rendered explicitly in _Urth of the \nNew Sun_.\n\nIt's hard to see scientifically how a white hole cancelling a black hole \nwould do that - but seemingly it does. If so, one might argue for the the \ntheory that the black hole in the Sun somehow stopped plate tectonics. \nPerhaps what is in the Sun is not quite a black hole as we think of it. \n[For that matter, I think an actual black hole in the Sun would cause it to \nheat up - but even if I am correct, story clearly must trump science in this \nregard.]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378648581.84718.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T13:56:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522C7085.3060202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "there is that \"thing\" sleeping in the mine with the ape men, that Severian says he might \"now\" know what it is - related to tectonic movement? What is down there? Does a throwaway detail like that resonate with something else in the text?\n \n\n \n\n\n\n\nOn 9/8/2013 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n \nWell, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics to exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to tell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere? \n\nI'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:\n\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth in\nsomewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD), so\nthe idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time necessary\nto be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters. \nWe've seen plenty of evidence that Wolfe gleaned gems from the historical trash heap of incorrect comprehensions of the physical universe in writing BNS. In fact, one could take it a step further and say that his universe is entirely created from such pulpy cliches---\n\nby which I mean to make a direct literary connection, because the\n pulp SF Wolfe admires, from Cthulhu to, I don't know, maybe Flash\n Gordon and beyond, consists almost entirely of disproven scientific\n assumptions. Look at how the surface environment of Venus has been\n (mis)conceived throughout the history of SF.\n\n---knowing full well that they do not fit well together. Two other\n well-known cases of this are Severian's comments about geological\n strata and the various genetic theories of 5HC, which Lee has\n identified as BNS's thematic precursor. Would this not, in Wolfe's\n thinking, parallel all the valid but imperfect understandings of the nonphysical universe? It's all the same, on other words---the science we believe today will be the superstition of tomorrow.\n\nSo yes, it makes the book better. \n\nAlso, \"death\" is perhaps a relative term on a geologic time scale.\n In our time, small volcanic islands are created before our eyes. In\n Severian's, this may no longer occur, but the plates could\n experience settling for quite some time after the primary tectonic\n activity has either ceased or simply decreased enough that most\n people assume Urth is dead, because all the volcanoes are. Thus the\n earthquakes in Typhon's time.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<522CA3B6.70903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-08T16:20:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/8/2013 9:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics\nto exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to\ntell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?\n\nI'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth\n in somewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD),\n so the idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time\nnecessary to be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wasn't that prior to the discovery of radioactivity, though? [The \nlimited lifespan that the Sun would have if its energy output were \nbased on chemical or gravitational processes was also considered a \nproblem for evolutionary theory, which required a longer timescale. \nBut the Sun actually operates on nuclear fusion, and nuclear fission \ncontinues to heat the Earth internally.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely. Here's a clear summary of the four forces that create heat: \nisotopic decay (85%?), latent heat (5%?), residual heat (5%?), and \ngravitational differentiation (5%?): http://phys.org/news62952904.html. \nAnd yet the Earth IS gradually cooling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However I agree that Wolfe doesn't necessarily care where a scientific \nconcept comes from. And he leaves matters intentionally vague; his \nmotto is that the reader should not be able to disprove the scientific \npossibililty of something (e.g. the gigantic godlings) as they do not \nhave quite enough information to locate them in specific \nwell-understood physical models. I do not think he always succeeds \nperfectly in this endeavour, but he does pretty well, and the reader \nshould not fret to much about seeming scientific contradictions (or \nworse, build complex metaphysical hypotheses based on them)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. The hypothesis I had in mind was one supported by Wolfe's own \nremarks, to the effect that the ancients were just as smart as we are, \njust as foolish, and yet rarely completely wrong in their understanding \nof the universe. Their understanding was merely imperfect, as is ours. \nThus gods and godlings may be as real as our scientific theories, \ncast-aside or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One thing that strikes me is that the New Sun explicitly seems to \nrestore the tectonic activity of Urth. This is predicted in the play \nof Dr. Talos (\"continents will founder\", etc.), and rendered \nexplicitly in _Urth of the New Sun_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My thought exactly, although \"founder\" could simply mean \"drown.\" If you \ndo read it that way, I assume this would be caused by gravitational \nshocks from the New Sun's approach, leading not only to temporarily \nincreased plate movement but perhaps also to increased heat+shear forces \nin the mantle, as I assume would arise in any massive transfer of energy \nto a planet.\n\nAs a side note, my conception of the New Sun's coming involves rapid \n(but sub-lightspeed, so that it can be seen approaching) movement of a \nstellar mass across the galaxy with no deceleration and no inertia. \nThus, rather than taking days, the catastrophic event takes only hours \nas the New Sun enters the solar system and \"seats\" itself at the center. \nIt's quick. It's basically magic. Maybe I'm wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's hard to see scientifically how a white hole cancelling a black \nhole would do that - but seemingly it does. If so, one might argue \nfor the the theory that the black hole in the Sun somehow stopped \nplate tectonics. Perhaps what is in the Sun is not quite a black hole \nas we think of it. [For that matter, I think an actual black hole in \nthe Sun would cause it to heat up - but even if I am correct, story \nclearly must trump science in this regard.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My first question would be why the black hole did not cause the same \neffects (i.e., a flood) on approaching Urth, since none are mentioned.\n\nOne answer would be that it was small, having not yet eaten of the Sun; \nanother would be that it did not approach but was inserted in place. \nAnother would be that it wasn't a black hole as we now understand \nit---maybe more like the metaphorical opposite of a White Fountain, a \nkind of hyperdimensional drain pipe. Either way, suppression of \nheat-induced mantle activity doesn't seem a likely result, unless it \nmagically drains heat from the entire solar system. Certainly reduced \nheat and light alone couldn't cool the upper mantle of a presumably \nvolcanically active planet except by magic.\n\nHowever, Wegener himself incorrectly thought that tidal drag was the \nprimary cause of plate movement (he didn't realize the ocean crust moved \ntoo), and it's been proposed for certain Jovian moons as well. So \ndepending on how we understand both the black hole and Earth tectonics, \nperhaps a case could be made for suppression by gravity. Maybe the black \nhole caused planetary orbits to slow (unless it sped them up), reducing \ntidal drag heat just enough to noticeably reduce volcanism and plate \nmotion without changing interior conditions much. By the same token, a \nrapid shift in the other direction could wake them up again." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T20:37:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522CA3B6.70903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/8/2013 9:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOne thing that strikes me is that the New Sun explicitly seems to \nrestore the tectonic activity of Urth. This is predicted in the play \nof Dr. Talos (\"continents will founder\", etc.), and rendered \nexplicitly in _Urth of the New Sun_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thought exactly, although \"founder\" could simply mean \"drown.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There was stuff about new continents rising too, though.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522CE7A2.1080707@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-09-08T21:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\" - reliable\n knowledge", "in_reply_to": "<1378648581.84718.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The idea seems interesting, though to me the \"thing\" reminded (when I \nwas reading) rather Balrog of Tolkien -\n\nAnother remark - I think that essential achievement of GW is creation of \nthe atmosphere of\n\"medieval\" world in BOTNs, when there is very little reliable \ninformation (remember\nSeverian's thoughts after his visit to sorcerer's willage about \ntransmission of information\nabout \"magics\"). If we compare it with our Middle Ages, since Antiquity \nthere where\nscholars and educated people who knew that Earth is round, not flat, by \nthe way,\nmost of Roman Church hierarchy knew it, but people still believed in the \nflat Earth -\n\nSergei" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nthere is that \"thing\" sleeping in the mine with the ape men, that \nSeverian says he might \"now\" know what it is - related to tectonic \nmovement? What is down there? Does a throwaway detail like that \nresonate with something else in the text?\n\n*From:* David Stockhoff \n*To:* Jerry Friedman ; The Urth Mailing List \n\n*Sent:* Sunday, September 8, 2013 5:41 AM\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"\n\n\nOn 9/8/2013 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics to exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to tell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth in\nsomewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD), so\nthe idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time necessary\nto be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters.\n\n\n \nWe've seen plenty of evidence that Wolfe gleaned gems from the \nhistorical trash heap of incorrect comprehensions of the physical \nuniverse in writing BNS. In fact, one could take it a step further and \nsay that his universe is entirely created from such pulpy cliches---\n\nby which I mean to make a direct literary connection, because the pulp \nSF Wolfe admires, from Cthulhu to, I don't know, maybe Flash Gordon \nand beyond, consists almost entirely of disproven scientific \nassumptions. Look at how the surface environment of Venus has been \n(mis)conceived throughout the history of SF.\n\n---knowing full well that they do not fit well together. Two other \nwell-known cases of this are Severian's comments about geological \nstrata and the various genetic theories of 5HC, which Lee has \nidentified as BNS's thematic precursor. Would this not, in Wolfe's \nthinking, parallel all the valid but imperfect understandings of the \n*nonphysical *universe? It's all the same, on other words---the \nscience we believe today will be the superstition of tomorrow.\n\nSo yes, it makes the book better.\n\nAlso, \"death\" is perhaps a relative term on a geologic time scale. In \nour time, small volcanic islands are created before our eyes. In \nSeverian's, this may no longer occur, but the plates could experience \nsettling for quite some time after the primary tectonic activity has \neither ceased or simply decreased enough that most people assume Urth \nis dead, because all the volcanoes are. Thus the earthquakes in \nTyphon's time.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522CF014.5070803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-08T21:45:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/8/2013 4:37 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff On 9/8/2013 9:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One thing that strikes me is that the New Sun explicitly seems to > \nrestore the tectonic activity of Urth. This is predicted in the play \nof Dr. Talos (\"continents will founder\", etc.), and rendered > \nexplicitly in _Urth of the New Sun_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My thought exactly, although \"founder\" could simply mean \"drown.\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There was stuff about new continents rising too, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right---I had forgotten." } ] }, { "message_id": "<0398640b3bd4fdc0229df649e074727b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T22:07:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522CA3B6.70903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, September 8, 2013 11:20, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 9/8/2013 9:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Well, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics\nto exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to\ntell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?\n\nI'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:\n\nThe slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth\n in somewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD),\n so the idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time\nnecessary to be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wasn't that prior to the discovery of radioactivity, though? [The\nlimited lifespan that the Sun would have if its energy output were\nbased on chemical or gravitational processes was also considered a\nproblem for evolutionary theory, which required a longer timescale.\nBut the Sun actually operates on nuclear fusion, and nuclear fission\ncontinues to heat the Earth internally.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely. Here's a clear summary of the four forces that create heat:\nisotopic decay (85%?), latent heat (5%?), residual heat (5%?), and\ngravitational differentiation (5%?): http://phys.org/news62952904.html.\nAnd yet the Earth IS gradually cooling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Back in ~1980, I believe the isotopic decay source was the only one\ngenerally recognized, and it's possible that the metal depletion mentioned\nin the Book would be of *radioactive* metals, powering the great ships and\nrobots aboard them. This explains a possible reason for there to be still\nfuneral bronzes and moveable type in a metal poor world, and of course\nisotopes sent into space can't keep the crust lubricated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However I agree that Wolfe doesn't necessarily care where a scientific\nconcept comes from. And he leaves matters intentionally vague; his\nmotto is that the reader should not be able to disprove the scientific\npossibililty of something (e.g. the gigantic godlings) as they do not\nhave quite enough information to locate them in specific\nwell-understood physical models. I do not think he always succeeds\nperfectly in this endeavour, but he does pretty well, and the reader\nshould not fret to much about seeming scientific contradictions (or\nworse, build complex metaphysical hypotheses based on them)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. The hypothesis I had in mind was one supported by Wolfe's own\nremarks, to the effect that the ancients were just as smart as we are,\njust as foolish, and yet rarely completely wrong in their understanding\nof the universe. Their understanding was merely imperfect, as is ours.\nThus gods and godlings may be as real as our scientific theories,\ncast-aside or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One thing that strikes me is that the New Sun explicitly seems to\nrestore the tectonic activity of Urth. This is predicted in the play\nof Dr. Talos (\"continents will founder\", etc.), and rendered\nexplicitly in _Urth of the New Sun_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My thought exactly, although \"founder\" could simply mean \"drown.\" If you\ndo read it that way, I assume this would be caused by gravitational\nshocks from the New Sun's approach, leading not only to temporarily\nincreased plate movement but perhaps also to increased heat+shear forces\nin the mantle, as I assume would arise in any massive transfer of energy\nto a planet.\n\nAs a side note, my conception of the New Sun's coming involves rapid\n(but sub-lightspeed, so that it can be seen approaching) movement of a\nstellar mass across the galaxy with no deceleration and no inertia.\nThus, rather than taking days, the catastrophic event takes only hours\nas the New Sun enters the solar system and \"seats\" itself at the center.\nIt's quick. It's basically magic. Maybe I'm wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the White Fountain is sub-stellar in magnitude and involves a form\nof negative mass, but otherwise as you say. Inertia is mitigated by the\nKirbyesque machinery tended by the crews below the surface of Yesod's\nartificial planet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's hard to see scientifically how a white hole cancelling a black\nhole would do that - but seemingly it does. If so, one might argue\nfor the the theory that the black hole in the Sun somehow stopped\nplate tectonics. Perhaps what is in the Sun is not quite a black hole\nas we think of it. [For that matter, I think an actual black hole in\nthe Sun would cause it to heat up - but even if I am correct, story\nclearly must trump science in this regard.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My first question would be why the black hole did not cause the same\neffects (i.e., a flood) on approaching Urth, since none are mentioned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The black beans may have been seeds or kernels, quantum black holes\nhumanly transportable and meant to grow later into larger ones. Some or\nmost may have failed or merged, as it is later said that a singular worm\ngnaws at the heart of the sun. But that may be a bit if a gag on Wolfe's\npart, making them Mexican jumping beans!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522CFCDD.7050807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-08T22:40:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<0398640b3bd4fdc0229df649e074727b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/8/2013 6:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nBack in ~1980, I believe the isotopic decay source was the only one\ngenerally recognized, and it's possible that the metal depletion mentioned\nin the Book would be of*radioactive* metals, powering the great ships and\nrobots aboard them. This explains a possible reason for there to be still\nfuneral bronzes and moveable type in a metal poor world, and of course\nisotopes sent into space can't keep the crust lubricated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How far down would humans have to strip the mantle (using robots, of \ncourse) to mess with tectonics? Wouldn't the entire planetary surface \nhave to be mined? or just where plates meet?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3A3B6DB09E624BAC9C237CDA8DA7BD79@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-08T23:52:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<0398640b3bd4fdc0229df649e074727b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The black beans may have been seeds or kernels, quantum black holes\nhumanly transportable and meant to grow later into larger ones. Some or\nmost may have failed or merged, as it is later said that a singular worm\ngnaws at the heart of the sun. But that may be a bit if a gag on Wolfe's\npart, making them Mexican jumping beans!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I interpret them as seeds of what later became the undersea lords - Erebus, \nAbaia et al.\n\n(My pet hypothesis, admittedly coming from SF of a later era, is that they \nare nanotech-based seeds of near-Singularity level AIs.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<690beeb630bc6319504d98f7fd6f8fe4.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T01:55:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522CFCDD.7050807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, September 8, 2013 17:40, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 9/8/2013 6:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Back in ~1980, I believe the isotopic decay source was the only one\ngenerally recognized, and it's possible that the metal depletion\nmentioned\nin the Book would be of*radioactive* metals, powering the great ships\nand\nrobots aboard them. This explains a possible reason for there to be\nstill\nfuneral bronzes and moveable type in a metal poor world, and of course\nisotopes sent into space can't keep the crust lubricated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How far down would humans have to strip the mantle (using robots, of\ncourse) to mess with tectonics? Wouldn't the entire planetary surface\nhave to be mined? or just where plates meet?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no idea, but it seems like no coincidence that *everywhere* in\nSev's time anyone happens to delve into the earth, there is already\nevidence of previous diggers and builders. Even underwater, he discovers\nanother huge drowned city beyond his own huge, newly drowned city. It\napparently took only a few centuries to carve faces into every mountain in\nSudamerica with the gear Typhon brought with him and was able to scrounge,\nand there have been many nations on Urth for many chiliads before him...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522D34C0.10503@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T02:38:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<690beeb630bc6319504d98f7fd6f8fe4.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/8/2013 9:55 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Sun, September 8, 2013 17:40, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/8/2013 6:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Back in ~1980, I believe the isotopic decay source was the only one\ngenerally recognized, and it's possible that the metal depletion\nmentioned\nin the Book would be of*radioactive* metals, powering the great ships\nand\nrobots aboard them. This explains a possible reason for there to be\nstill\nfuneral bronzes and moveable type in a metal poor world, and of course\nisotopes sent into space can't keep the crust lubricated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How far down would humans have to strip the mantle (using robots, of\ncourse) to mess with tectonics? Wouldn't the entire planetary surface\nhave to be mined? or just where plates meet?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have no idea, but it seems like no coincidence that *everywhere* in\nSev's time anyone happens to delve into the earth, there is already\nevidence of previous diggers and builders. Even underwater, he discovers\nanother huge drowned city beyond his own huge, newly drowned city. It\napparently took only a few centuries to carve faces into every mountain in\nSudamerica with the gear Typhon brought with him and was able to scrounge,\nand there have been many nations on Urth for many chiliads before him...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That, and the bits of plastic everywhere. Well, that would do away with \nany need for truly geologic time scales to explain Severian's remarks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T04:35:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522D34C0.10503@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, September 8, 2013 21:38, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 9/8/2013 9:55 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sun, September 8, 2013 17:40, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 9/8/2013 6:07 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Back in ~1980, I believe the isotopic decay source was the only one\ngenerally recognized, and it's possible that the metal depletion\nmentioned\nin the Book would be of*radioactive* metals, powering the great ships\nand\nrobots aboard them. This explains a possible reason for there to be\nstill\nfuneral bronzes and moveable type in a metal poor world, and of course\nisotopes sent into space can't keep the crust lubricated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "How far down would humans have to strip the mantle (using robots, of\ncourse) to mess with tectonics? Wouldn't the entire planetary surface\nhave to be mined? or just where plates meet?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have no idea, but it seems like no coincidence that *everywhere* in\nSev's time anyone happens to delve into the earth, there is already\nevidence of previous diggers and builders. Even underwater, he\ndiscovers\nanother huge drowned city beyond his own huge, newly drowned city. It\napparently took only a few centuries to carve faces into every mountain\nin\nSudamerica with the gear Typhon brought with him and was able to\nscrounge,\nand there have been many nations on Urth for many chiliads before\nhim...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That, and the bits of plastic everywhere. Well, that would do away with\nany need for truly geologic time scales to explain Severian's remarks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean? What is it called?\n\nI would think that any volume of plastic would indicate either enough time\nfor new petroleum to form, or that not enough time had yet passed for\nprocessed plastic to crumble." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378702040.47731.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T04:47:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522C7085.3060202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/8/2013 12:25 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n\nWell, he might justifiably ask, if Wolfe intended plate tectonics to exist on Urth, how it makes the book better for Severian to tell us that it stopped. To improve the dying-earth atmosphere?\n\nI'm intrigued by Jeff's idea:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The slowing of geology processes and the refrigeration of the earth in\nsomewhat of a historical time scale was once the current scientific\nthought in the 19th century (Bellamy mentions it in LOOKING BACKWARD), so\nthe idea has a reason to be present and for the estimated time necessary\nto be reckoned past, however mistakenly by the characters. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We've seen plenty of evidence that Wolfe gleaned gems from the historical trash heap of incorrect comprehensions of the physical universe in writing BNS. In fact, one could take it a step further and say that his universe is entirely created from such pulpy cliches---\n\nby which I mean to make a direct literary connection, because the\n????pulp SF Wolfe admires, from Cthulhu to, I don't know, maybe Flash\n????Gordon and beyond, consists almost entirely of disproven scientific\n????assumptions. Look at how the surface environment of Venus has been\n????(mis)conceived throughout the history of SF.\n\n---knowing full well that they do not fit well together. Two other\n????well-known cases of this are Severian's comments about geological\n????strata and the various genetic theories of 5HC, which Lee has\n????identified as BNS's thematic precursor. Would this not, in Wolfe's\n????thinking, parallel all the valid but imperfect understandings of the nonphysical universe? It's all the same, on other words---the science we believe today will be the superstition of tomorrow.\n\nSo yes, it makes the book better. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting thoughts. Incidentally, they remind me of Severian's example of the hawk's nest. In the first place, it's fallacious. (Nest-building evolved in ground-living or even aquatic species before anyone got to the trees where one stick is useless.)? In the second, it seems that evolution by natural selection is the theory that Severian was taught. Does Wolfe see that as in the same category as other misconceptions he was taught?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, \"death\" is perhaps a relative term on a geologic time scale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "????In our time, small volcanic islands are created before our eyes. In\n????Severian's, this may no longer occur, but the plates could\n????experience settling for quite some time after the primary tectonic\n????activity has either ceased or simply decreased enough that most\n????people assume Urth is dead, because all the volcanoes are. Thus the\n????earthquakes in Typhon's time.\n\nSeems possible.\n\nBy the way, supposedly curative hot springs were important in ancient times. Are they mentioned anywhere in BotNS?\n\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378703957.73667.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T05:19:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<0398640b3bd4fdc0229df649e074727b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, September 8, 2013 11:20, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On 9/8/2013 9:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " One thing that strikes me is that the New Sun explicitly seems to\n restore the tectonic activity of Urth. This is predicted in the play\n of Dr. Talos (\"continents will founder\", etc.), and rendered\n explicitly in _Urth of the New Sun_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " My thought exactly, although \"founder\" could simply mean \n\"drown.\" If you\n do read it that way, I assume this would be caused by gravitational\n shocks from the New Sun's approach, leading not only to temporarily\n increased plate movement but perhaps also to increased heat+shear forces\n in the mantle, as I assume would arise in any massive transfer of energy\n to a planet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nSeems reasonable. It's certainly not from increased solar flux. However, that would be a LOT of energy. I'd wonder whether anybody at all could survive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " It's hard to see scientifically how a white hole cancelling a black\n hole would do that - but seemingly it does. If so, one might argue\n for the the theory that the black hole in the Sun somehow stopped\n plate tectonics. Perhaps what is in the Sun is not quite a black hole\n as we think of it. [For that matter, I think an actual black hole in\n the Sun would cause it to heat up - but even if I am correct, story\n clearly must trump science in this regard.]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that a black hole, even as currently understood, would cool the sun if it were significantly cooler than the temperature of the interior of the sun. You can have some fun at ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " My first question would be why the black hole did not cause the same\n effects (i.e., a flood) on approaching Urth, since none are mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The black beans may have been seeds or kernels, quantum black holes\nhumanly transportable and meant to grow later into larger ones. Some or\nmost may have failed or merged, as it is later said that a singular worm\ngnaws at the heart of the sun. But that may be a bit if a gag on Wolfe's\npart, making them Mexican jumping beans!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait, I thought the black beans grew into the sea monsters, which is why the woman had to throw them into the sea (instead of just dropping them on the ground) to make them effective. Robert Borski speculated along these lines.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=HykyT4UQ9JMC&pg=PA93\n\nAnyway, it would make literary sense if whoever or whatever made the sun cool also stopped plate tectonics (if it's stopped), and if the process that fixed one also fixed the other.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7db9e38a45bbb13e97148edcdcd9e9e6.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T06:03:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378703957.73667.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, September 9, 2013 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nSeems reasonable. It's certainly not from increased solar flux. However,\nthat would be a LOT of energy. I'd wonder whether anybody at all could\nsurvive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, the Yesodis don't expect them to survive, which is why they settle\nthe renewed earth with new people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that a black hole, even as currently understood, would cool the\nsun if it were significantly cooler than the temperature of the interior\nof the sun. You can have some fun at ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's really not fair to hold Wolfe to the standards of another 3-4 decades\nof theoretical physics. We no longer have the expectation of transcending\nspace and dimension as when the Book was being written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait, I thought the black beans grew into the sea monsters, which is why\nthe woman had to throw them into the sea (instead of just dropping them on\nthe ground) to make them effective. Robert Borski speculated along these\nlines.\n\nhttp://books.google.com/books?id=HykyT4UQ9JMC&pg=PA93\n\nAnyway, it would make literary sense if whoever or whatever made the sun\ncool also stopped plate tectonics (if it's stopped), and if the process\nthat fixed one also fixed the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's a stretch when she throws them on the *sun*'s grave." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T09:58:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378703957.73667.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jerry Friedman\n[..]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " On 9/8/2013 9:19 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": " It's hard to see scientifically how a white hole cancelling a black\n hole would do that - but seemingly it does. If so, one might argue\n for the the theory that the black hole in the Sun somehow stopped\n plate tectonics. Perhaps what is in the Sun is not quite a black hole\n as we think of it. [For that matter, I think an actual black hole in\n the Sun would cause it to heat up - but even if I am correct, story\n clearly must trump science in this regard.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that a black hole, even as currently understood, would cool the \nsun\n if it were significantly cooler than the temperature of the interior of \nthe sun.\nYou can have some fun at ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Hawking temperature of a black hole in the sun doesn't matter. What \nmatters is the energy emission from infalling matter as it accelerates and \nis compressed before reaching the Schwarzschild radius. Presumably it will \nform an accretion disk in the heart of the sun, but this will only happen \nwhen the radiation from the disk is sufficient to balance the hydrostatic \npressure in a 'bubble' at the core of the sun. Which is pretty high \npressure!\n\nIf the black hole is not parked in the centre but orbiting at some distance, \nit will cause a net increase in radiation. But over time 'friction' (in the \nmost general sense) and mass increase will bring it to the centre.\n\nSo that's the first thing - the black hole is radiating pretty hard due to \ninfalling matter. Actually it seems arguable that it might radiate about as \nmuch as was radiated from the same zone (the zone of balance) as was \nradiating before, in which case its direct influence on the sun's \ntemperature would be slight considering the black hole alone.\n\nHowever, the radiation from the black hole comes from already 'burned' solar \nmatter. As it absorbs matter from the heart of the sun, more hydrogen-rich \nfuel will fall towards the centre of the sun. Surely this would be expected \nto release some extra energy due to nuclear fusion?\n\nIn the second place, as it absorbs the sun's core matter it should cause the \nsun to effectively age. Stars like the sun get hotter as they age, as the \n'burn' zone where fusion takes place expands in radius. So for this reason, \ntoo, I would expect a black hole to cause the sun to heat up.\n\nI'm sure - Wolfe's lack of detail wins again - one could find an argument \nfor how cooling might occur. But on first principles, I'd expect a black \nhole dropped into the sun to have a warming effect.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DB5D4.6080403@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T11:49:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 12:35 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI would think that any volume of plastic would indicate either enough time\nfor new petroleum to form, or that not enough time had yet passed for\nprocessed plastic to crumble." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. Severian doesn't call it plastic, but he refers to colored bits \nof something, so it has already crumbled.\n\nPossibly it's a stretch and simply put there as a general clue to \nSeverian's post-oil extraction time period. Since there could have been \na vast amount of it lying around (probable; in fact I always took it as \na bit of a joke, sort of dinosaurs-to-oil in reverse) I'd think it would \nbe difficult to get a good estimate of how long it would take for all of \nit to disappear." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DB883.6040101@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:01:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 4:58 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI'm sure - Wolfe's lack of detail wins again - one could find an \nargument for how cooling might occur. But on first principles, I'd \nexpect a black hole dropped into the sun to have a warming effect." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the late 1970s conception, a black hole is an Einstein-Rosenbridge \nto somewhere else; Abbadon in Urth's case. It's supposed to be literally \nsending part of the sun's substance and generated energy *away*. The \nremaining star is diminished in output per unit mess as well, as lighter \nstars are." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DBB50.3010206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:13:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378702040.47731.YahooMailNeo@web124506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 12:47 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nVery interesting thoughts. Incidentally, they remind me of Severian's example of the hawk's nest. In the first place, it's fallacious. (Nest-building evolved in ground-living or even aquatic species before anyone got to the trees where one stick is useless.) In the second, it seems that evolution by natural selection is the theory that Severian was taught. Does Wolfe see that as in the same category as other misconceptions he was taught?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I think his logic is not bad, given his lack of information:\n\n... the first hawk to build one cannot have inherited its instinct to \nbuild from its parents, since they did not possess it. Nor could such an \ninstinct have developed slowly, a thousand generations of hawks fetching \none stick before some hawk\n\nfetched two; because neither one stick nor two could be of the slightest \nuse to the nesting hawks.\n\n\nHis conclusions are correct: neither hypothesis works. He seems to have \na grade-school understanding of natural selection, but I think more to \nthe point he is using logic to guess at an unguessable truth. He asks \ngood questions but simply doesn't know how hawks evolved, and thus even \nthese intelligent questions will not get him there:\n\nThe wheeling birds traced their hieroglyphics in the air, but they were \nnot for me to read." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, \"death\" is perhaps a relative term on a geologic time scale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " In our time, small volcanic islands are created before our eyes. In\n Severian's, this may no longer occur, but the plates could\n experience settling for quite some time after the primary tectonic\n activity has either ceased or simply decreased enough that most\n people assume Urth is dead, because all the volcanoes are. Thus the\n earthquakes in Typhon's time.\n\nSeems possible.\n\nBy the way, supposedly curative hot springs were important in ancient times. Are they mentioned anywhere in BotNS?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not that I can recall." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DBC4A.6080206@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:17:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DB5D4.6080403@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 9/9/2013 12:35 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would think that any volume of plastic would indicate either enough \ntime\nfor new petroleum to form, or that not enough time had yet passed for\nprocessed plastic to crumble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly. Severian doesn't call it plastic, but he refers to colored \nbits of something, so it has already crumbled.\n\nPossibly it's a stretch and simply put there as a general clue to \nSeverian's post-oil extraction time period. Since there could have \nbeen a vast amount of it lying around (probable; in fact I always took \nit as a bit of a joke, sort of dinosaurs-to-oil in reverse) I'd think \nit would be difficult to get a good estimate of how long it would take \nfor all of it to disappear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! \"..../the kind of sand that artists call polychrome (because flecks \nof every color are mixed with its whiteness) is actually not sand at \nall, but the glass of the past, now pounded to powder by aeons of \ntumbling in the clamourous sea.\"\n\n/I can see the confusion of plastic with glass by unilluminated people, \nbut it should be too light to mix with sand, and perhaps should be as \nfamiliar as Sev says prosthetic limbs are. /\n/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DC16D.1020809@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378703957.73667.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 1:19 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nAnyway, it would make literary sense if whoever or whatever made the sun cool also stopped plate tectonics (if it's stopped), and if the process that fixed one also fixed the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's basically what I was getting at. If we can't settle on a \nplausible physical explanation, there's always literary magic. The black \nhole (which after all is never called that) could simply taken as a \ngeneral negative force and the NS as a positive one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DC1FA.3000805@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DB883.6040101@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 8:01 AM, Jeffery Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/9/2013 4:58 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm sure - Wolfe's lack of detail wins again - one could find an \nargument for how cooling might occur. But on first principles, I'd \nexpect a black hole dropped into the sun to have a warming effect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the late 1970s conception, a black hole is an Einstein-Rosenbridge \nto somewhere else; Abbadon in Urth's case. It's supposed to be \nliterally sending part of the sun's substance and generated energy \n*away*. The remaining star is diminished in output per unit mess as \nwell, as lighter stars are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. As I suggested, a cosmic drain pipe, eventually replaced by a \nfire hose." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:42:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DB883.6040101@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeffery Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 4:58 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm sure - Wolfe's lack of detail wins again - one could find an \nargument for how cooling might occur. But on first principles, I'd \nexpect a black hole dropped into the sun to have a warming effect." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the late 1970s conception, a black hole is an Einstein-Rosenbridge to \nsomewhere else; Abbadon in Urth's case. It's supposed to be literally \nsending part of the sun's substance and generated energy *away*. The \nremaining star is diminished in output per unit mess as well, as lighter \nstars are." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the \nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition of \nan event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild radius \nis just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object. At a distance of \nseveral Schwarzschild radii, Newtonian physics will be reasonably accurate \n(albeit not in detail).\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DC245.5040402@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:42:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DBC4A.6080206@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 8:17 AM, Jeffery Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/9/2013 6:49 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/9/2013 12:35 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I would think that any volume of plastic would indicate either \nenough time\nfor new petroleum to form, or that not enough time had yet passed for\nprocessed plastic to crumble." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Exactly. Severian doesn't call it plastic, but he refers to colored \nbits of something, so it has already crumbled.\n\nPossibly it's a stretch and simply put there as a general clue to \nSeverian's post-oil extraction time period. Since there could have \nbeen a vast amount of it lying around (probable; in fact I always \ntook it as a bit of a joke, sort of dinosaurs-to-oil in reverse) I'd \nthink it would be difficult to get a good estimate of how long it \nwould take for all of it to disappear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! \"..../the kind of sand that artists call polychrome (because \nflecks of every color are mixed with its whiteness) is actually not \nsand at all, but the glass of the past, now pounded to powder by aeons \nof tumbling in the clamourous sea.\"\n\n/I can see the confusion of plastic with glass by unilluminated \npeople, but it should be too light to mix with sand, and perhaps \nshould be as familiar as Sev says prosthetic limbs are. //" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right---glass, not plastic. I suppose the plastic is gone." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DC31E.5030107@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-09T12:46:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/9/2013 8:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIn the late 1970s conception, a black hole is an \nEinstein-Rosenbridge to somewhere else; Abbadon in Urth's case. It's \nsupposed to be literally sending part of the sun's substance and \ngenerated energy *away*. The remaining star is diminished in output \nper unit mess as well, as lighter stars are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches \nthe event horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the \ndefinition of an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the \nSchwarzschild radius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed \nobject. At a distance of several Schwarzschild radii, Newtonian \nphysics will be reasonably accurate (albeit not in detail). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is why I don't like the idea that the object has non-Newtonian \neffects outside/beyond the Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DCADA.4080402@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T13:19:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 7:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nIt doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the\nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition\nof an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild\nradius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What force acts on the matter to prevent it from following the usual \nswarm of elliptical orbits instead of the disk?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<108AEAAC-0151-4DEA-8F83-657408EFEDA7@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T13:42:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DCADA.4080402@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've made a ton of science - biological claims about Wolfe ... But his interest as a symbolist always seems to me to keep the science at that level - it's representation rather than the hard application, like the giant nucleic acid building in House of Ancestors having some atavistic sympathetic vibration with the real person's genetic material it \"matches\". Accretion disks and schwarzschild radii seem ever so slightly \"harder\" than Wolfe's usual symbolic , tropish employment of science. \n\nWhen he obsesses about something, it is usually closer to industrial engineering and the kinds of materials used - if I had to guess I would say theoretical physics are treated a little differently than the \"let's build this based on these building properties\" descriptions that crop up (like talus manufacturing - this is where science becomes less metaphorical for Wolfe)\n\nWe really should keep mid 70s or even earlier understandings in mind, unless we are just talking about probabilities here that are not lit crit in nature. \n\nAre we talking about the text or the possibility of the text here? Because Borges or st augustine will probably influence his treatment of a scientific mystery as much as his physics background ... \n\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 9, 2013, at 6:19 AM, Jeffery Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/9/2013 7:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the\nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition\nof an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild\nradius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What force acts on the matter to prevent it from following the usual swarm of elliptical orbits instead of the disk?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B8A57D138FB49D397A107B34035511C@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T13:50:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DC31E.5030107@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: David Stockhoff" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 8:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the \nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition \nof an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild \nradius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object. At a \ndistance of several Schwarzschild radii, Newtonian physics will be \nreasonably accurate (albeit not in detail)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is why I don't like the idea that the object has non-Newtonian \neffects outside/beyond the Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it could emit penetrating particles that have a heating effect when \nabsorbed by matter.\n\nSay it emitted a large pulse of particles similar to neutrinos, with a \nsufficiently small capture cross section that they could go through the \nEarth without much attenuation, but still much more absorbable by matter \nthan neutrinos. If you give them a penetration depth of several Earth \ndiameters, then for every 10^12 tons or so mass-equivalent emitted in this \nform from the sun, you would heat the Earth by one degree. A few hundred \ntimes that amount emitted over a period of might be enough to restart \ntectonic activity. However, you then have the problem that it needs to be \nemitted over a rather long period, or the seas would boil, and the land \nwould also become uncomfortably hot. I think however if this radiation was \nabsorbed chiefly by iron and similar heavy metals, life-threatening \nconsequences would be mitigated, especially if the pulse lasted a few hours. \n(This should also prevent dramatic consequences for Jupiter and Saturn. \nSkuld might have problems, though, if it is still inhabited.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<747004DA7C8F40EBA20B8CBD4E3472BC@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T13:56:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DCADA.4080402@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeffery Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 7:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the\nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition\nof an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild\nradius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What force acts on the matter to prevent it from following the usual swarm \nof elliptical orbits instead of the disk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a word, friction. The matter would be gaseous in this case and particles \ncould not swirl in independent orbits. But even if it were composed of \nsolid particles, they would soon collide, which would (1) heat the colliding \nparticles (2) reduce their energy, and (3) set the colliding particles on \ncloser trajectories than they were before.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T13:58:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<3B8A57D138FB49D397A107B34035511C@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Curious Gerry, do you have an extensive physics background? I have a biochem degree and I really love math to the more concrete calculus but physics was always one of my least favorite fields. If I were writing something this is the kind of information I would certainly gloss over, though of course half life and radioactive decay are familiar since I dealt with them all the time in chemistry. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 9, 2013, at 6:50 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\n\n\nFrom: David Stockhoff\nOn 9/9/2013 8:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the > event horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition > of an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild > radius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object. At a > distance of several Schwarzschild radii, Newtonian physics will be > reasonably accurate (albeit not in detail)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Which is why I don't like the idea that the object has non-Newtonian effects outside/beyond the Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, it could emit penetrating particles that have a heating effect when absorbed by matter.\n\nSay it emitted a large pulse of particles similar to neutrinos, with a sufficiently small capture cross section that they could go through the Earth without much attenuation, but still much more absorbable by matter than neutrinos. If you give them a penetration depth of several Earth diameters, then for every 10^12 tons or so mass-equivalent emitted in this form from the sun, you would heat the Earth by one degree. A few hundred times that amount emitted over a period of might be enough to restart tectonic activity. However, you then have the problem that it needs to be emitted over a rather long period, or the seas would boil, and the land would also become uncomfortably hot. I think however if this radiation was absorbed chiefly by iron and similar heavy metals, life-threatening consequences would be mitigated, especially if the pulse lasted a few hours. (This should also prevent dramatic consequences for Jupiter and Saturn. Skuld might have problems, though, if it is still inhabited.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522DD836.6050803@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T14:16:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<747004DA7C8F40EBA20B8CBD4E3472BC@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 8:56 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Jeffery Wilson\nOn 9/9/2013 7:42 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches the\nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the definition\nof an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild\nradius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What force acts on the matter to prevent it from following the usual\nswarm of elliptical orbits instead of the disk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a word, friction. The matter would be gaseous in this case and\nparticles could not swirl in independent orbits. But even if it were\ncomposed of solid particles, they would soon collide, which would (1)\nheat the colliding particles (2) reduce their energy, and (3) set the\ncolliding particles on closer trajectories than they were before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But all the stuff inside the sun's already colliding and touching.\n\nHow is the axis and irection of rotation of the disk picked?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T14:30:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Curious Gerry, do you have an extensive physics background? I have\n a biochem degree and I really love math to the more concrete calculus\nbut physics was always one of my least favorite fields. If I were writing\nsomething this is the kind of information I would certainly gloss over,\n though of course half life and radioactive decay are familiar since I\ndealt with them all the time in chemistry." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, my degree is in engineering, but I have always taken an interest in \nphysics.\n\nHalf the battle in this sort of thing is developing the confidence to do \ncalculations with big, approximate numbers!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T14:42:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522DD836.6050803@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeffery Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 8:56 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nFrom: Jeffery Wilson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It doesn't matter (in engineering terms) whether stuff that reaches \nthe\nevent horizon goes somewhere else or not (that's kind of the \ndefinition\nof an event horizon). But an accretion disk outside the Schwarzschild\nradius is just standard dynamics for any super-condensed object." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What force acts on the matter to prevent it from following the usual\nswarm of elliptical orbits instead of the disk?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In a word, friction. The matter would be gaseous in this case and\nparticles could not swirl in independent orbits. But even if it were\ncomposed of solid particles, they would soon collide, which would (1)\nheat the colliding particles (2) reduce their energy, and (3) set the\ncolliding particles on closer trajectories than they were before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But all the stuff inside the sun's already colliding and touching." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is the axis and irection of rotation of the disk picked?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Sun is already rotating, so its matter has angular momentum. Any \ndifference in angular momentum gets magnified as an object shrinks (e.g. \nspinning skater pulling her arms in spins faster). And angular momentum is \nconserved - there's nowhere for it to go except into the black hole, and \neven then it's one of the three kinds of 'hair' a black hole can have - i.e. \na black hole's angular momentum can still interact with its surroundings, as \ncan its electric charge and gravitational field. A rotating object has a \ndefined axis as well as direction.\n\nThis has happened before as the solar system was formed: note how all the \nplanets and asteroids are in a plane, rotating in the same direction (bar \nthe odd outlier that had some heavy collisions that sent it on an unusual \ntrajectory)? And the sun and planets also tend to rotate on their own axes \nin the same direction. The solar system has a specific axis of rotation, \nbecause collisions early on resulted in a single axis dominating.\n\nAnother example: water draining out of a bathtub picks a direction, and \nsticks with it.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378738636.42906.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-09T14:57:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<7db9e38a45bbb13e97148edcdcd9e9e6.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, September 9, 2013 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Seems reasonable. It's certainly not from increased solar flux. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However,\n that would be a LOT of energy. I'd wonder whether anybody at all could\n survive.\n\nIndeed, the Yesodis don't expect them to survive, which is why they settle\nthe renewed earth with new people." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I think that a black hole, even as currently understood, would cool the\n sun if it were significantly cooler than the temperature of the interior\n of the sun. You can have some fun at \n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's really not fair to hold Wolfe to the standards of another 3-4 decades\nof theoretical physics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's why I said \"even as currently understood\". I was just thinking about\nwhat might happen with current physics, as I take it Gerry was too, not holding\nWolfe to anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We no longer have the expectation of transcending\nspace and dimension as when the Book was being written." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember that we did then--did we?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Wait, I thought the black beans grew into the sea monsters, which is why\n the woman had to throw them into the sea (instead of just dropping them on\n the ground) to make them effective. Robert Borski speculated along these\n lines.\n\n http://books.google.com/books?id=HykyT4UQ9JMC&pg=PA93\n\n Anyway, it would make literary sense if whoever or whatever made the sun\n cool also stopped plate tectonics (if it's stopped), and if the process\n that fixed one also fixed the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think it's a stretch when she throws them on the *sun*'s grave." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not following. What's a stretch? What's the sun's grave?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "<522FB2C9.4000602@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-09-11T00:01:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<1378738636.42906.YahooMailNeo@web124505.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/9/2013 9:57 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nFrom: Jeff Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, September 9, 2013 00:19, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Seems reasonable. It's certainly not from increased solar flux." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "However,\n that would be a LOT of energy. I'd wonder whether anybody at all could\n survive.\n\nIndeed, the Yesodis don't expect them to survive, which is why they settle\nthe renewed earth with new people." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I think that a black hole, even as currently understood, would cool the\n sun if it were significantly cooler than the temperature of the interior\n of the sun. You can have some fun at\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's really not fair to hold Wolfe to the standards of another 3-4 decades\nof theoretical physics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's why I said \"even as currently understood\". I was just thinking about\nwhat might happen with current physics, as I take it Gerry was too, not holding\nWolfe to anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We no longer have the expectation of transcending\nspace and dimension as when the Book was being written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't remember that we did then--did we?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A popular treatment in print was THE IRON SUN: ACROSS THE UNIVERSE WITH \nBLACK HOLES\t(ISBN 0525134905, 9780525134909). Disney did a film called \nTHE BLACK HOLE, and Blue Oyster Cult had\n some airplay with \"Heavy Metal, Black and Silver\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Wait, I thought the black beans grew into the sea monsters, which is why\n the woman had to throw them into the sea (instead of just dropping them on\n the ground) to make them effective. Robert Borski speculated along these\n lines.\n\n http://books.google.com/books?id=HykyT4UQ9JMC&pg=PA93\n\n Anyway, it would make literary sense if whoever or whatever made the sun\n cool also stopped plate tectonics (if it's stopped), and if the process\n that fixed one also fixed the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think it's a stretch when she throws them on the *sun*'s grave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not following. What's a stretch? What's the sun's grave?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm thinking it's figurative reference like, \"I feel like someone is \nwalking on my grave.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-09-11T00:18:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522FB2C9.4000602@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeffery Wilson " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A popular treatment in print was THE IRON SUN: ACROSS THE UNIVERSE WITH \nBLACK HOLES (ISBN 0525134905, 9780525134909). Disney did a film called \nTHE BLACK HOLE, and Blue Oyster Cult had\n some airplay with \"Heavy Metal, Black and Silver\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, I was going to mention BOC, along with Rush's Cygnus X-1!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52306940.4060602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-11T12:59:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<108AEAAC-0151-4DEA-8F83-657408EFEDA7@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2013 9:42 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI've made a ton of science - biological claims about Wolfe ... But his interest as a symbolist always seems to me to keep the science at that level - it's representation rather than the hard application, like the giant nucleic acid building in House of Ancestors having some atavistic sympathetic vibration with the real person's genetic material it \"matches\". Accretion disks and schwarzschild radii seem ever so slightly \"harder\" than Wolfe's usual symbolic , tropish employment of science.\n\nWhen he obsesses about something, it is usually closer to industrial engineering and the kinds of materials used - if I had to guess I would say theoretical physics are treated a little differently than the \"let's build this based on these building properties\" descriptions that crop up (like talus manufacturing - this is where science becomes less metaphorical for Wolfe)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's very well put.\n\nThere seems to be a consensus here, if I may presume to summarize it:\n\n(1) The Black Worm, whatever its nature, was put there to dim the sun.\n We are told that it \"ate\" of the sun. Since the White Fountain \ncorrelates with the then-current theory of matter fountains, the Worm \nmust have worked by progressively removing solar matter. The Worm also \nfits old mythical ideas about portents of decline and harbingers of \ndoom, so it works well on a symbolic level. As an actual black hole, it \npresents problems.\n\n(2) It DID dim the sun and cool Urth.\n Did the Yesodis decide to shut down the experiment early? Was \nthe intent to slowly freeze Urth to death? Was there a faction among \nthem that wanted to give Urth one last chance? Their choice (Severian's \nchoice too) was either to shut it down entirely or do another run with \nnew subjects, but a few people escaped.\n\n(3) It MAY also have somehow cooled Urth's mantle enough that volcanism \nstopped.\n Known volcanoes are apparently dead (Erebus), and there is an \natmosphere of stasis and decay. On the other hand, Urth may already have \nbeen really old. But earthquakes were known in Typhon's time, when the \nWorm appeared. Symbolic decay works better to explain this than physical \ncooling. The Worm could not have removed matter from Urth's mantle, so \nany direct effect on Urth would have to take a different path anyway.\n\n(4) The White Fountain restored the sun's power.\n Again, this would have been by adding or restoring matter to the \nsun. (Recall Silk's signs of addition and subtraction.)\n\n(5) It also shocked Urth into catastrophic tidal floods---and possibly \ntectonic cataclysm as well.\n I conclude the tectonics question is a red herring. If Urth is \nmere chiliads older, no one would notice the continents no longer moving \n(only the gradual subsidence of obvious activity). But if Urth is \nmillions of years older . . . no one would remember any kind of activity \nat all, and STILL no one would notice the continents no longer moving. \nSo any effects on continental movements would have been lost on \nvirtually 100% of Urth's inhabitants. (Jonas might have been in a \nposition to notice such effects, but I don't think he mentions it.)\n\n So what's the point? (I think this supports both Urth as 20,000 \nyears in our \"future\" and an unnatural/supernatural/nonphysical \nexplanation for any tectonic quiescence.) The quote from Dr Talus' play \nmay be pure malarkey, or just a dramatic touch meant to get us to pay \nattention. Severian does not mention new volcanoes, new earthquakes, or \nnew continents in UNS. If the continents do move again, it will be well \nout of the scope of his narrative.\n\n Had Wolfe really meant us to think the Worm stopped plate \nmotion---and that it was important---he would surely have inserted such \nmotion into UNS to show that it had reversed. So my guess is either it \nwasn't important or it didn't \"really\" happen.\n\nAnyway, this has been an interesting discussion!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52306BA9.1070408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-09-11T13:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<52306940.4060602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/11/2013 8:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nHad Wolfe really meant us to think the Worm stopped plate motion---and \nthat it was important---he would surely have inserted such motion into \nUNS to show that it had reversed. So my guess is either it wasn't \nimportant or it didn't \"really\" happen. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the same for breaking the carbon cycle, if the hypothetical tectonic \nsuppression actually progressed to total stasis." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1378917976.33867.YahooMailNeo@web124502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-11T16:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) \"been teaching literature for over 35 years\"", "in_reply_to": "<522FB2C9.4000602@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jeffery Wilson jwilson at clueland.com\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "???I think that a black hole, even as currently understood, would cool the\n???sun if it were significantly cooler than the temperature of the interior\n???of the sun. You can have some fun at\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's really not fair to hold Wolfe to the standards of another 3-4 decades\nof theoretical physics." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's why I said \"even as currently understood\". I was just thinking about\nwhat might happen with current physics, as I take it Gerry was too, not holding\nWolfe to anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We no longer have the expectation of transcending\nspace and dimension as when the Book was being written." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't remember that we did then--did we?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A popular treatment in print was THE IRON SUN: ACROSS THE UNIVERSE WITH \nBLACK HOLES??? (ISBN 0525134905, 9780525134909). Disney did a film called \nTHE BLACK HOLE, and Blue Oyster Cult had\n? some airplay with \"Heavy Metal, Black and Silver\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, okay. I think that at the time, the theory that black holes might lead to other\nuniverses (or other parts of this one), where they might be white holes, was\nstill current. I think the theory of black hole radiation, in which black holes and\nwhite holes are the same thing, was also available (developed by Bekenstein\nin 1972 and Hawking in 1974)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "???Wait, I thought the black beans grew into the sea monsters, which is why\n???the woman had to throw them into the sea (instead of just dropping them on\n???the ground) to make them effective. Robert Borski speculated along these\n???lines.\n\n? http://books.google.com/books?id=HykyT4UQ9JMC&pg=PA93\n\n???Anyway, it would make literary sense if whoever or whatever made the sun\n???cool also stopped plate tectonics (if it's stopped), and if the process\n???that fixed one also fixed the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think it's a stretch when she throws them on the *sun*'s grave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not following. What's a stretch? What's the sun's grave?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm thinking it's figurative reference like, \"I feel like someone is \nwalking on my grave.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you trying to frustrate me, or did I miss a post about \"the sun's grave\"? What's\na figurative reference like that line?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }