{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6443", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6443, "subject": "Short Sun notes: Remora", "messages": 28, "voices": 9, "first": "2013-09-27T21:27:05+00:00", "last": "2013-10-09T20:32:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2013-09-27T21:27:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, this one is very speculative, and may seem round the bend. In the trial\nscene in Dorp, Windcloud says ?I was one of those who boarded your whorl\nwhen it neared our sun. In the Whorl, I made the acquaintance of many of\nyour race. This has given rise to speculation that some people we know\nfrom _Long Sun_ may be Neighbours.\n\nThere doesn’t seem to be any suggestion that Neighbours can change shape,\nlike inhumi, so if they are manifesting as humans it is probably by\nprojecting their spirits into humans in a way akin to possession. We know\nthat they were able to convey Horn’s spirit into a new body, so it is\nlikely that they are able to do the same with their own spirits.\n\nThis got me wondering about Remora. There are three interesting facts about\nhim.\n\na. He is well placed to observe Quetzal, and one of the reasons Neighbours\nare on the Whorl is to observe humanoid inhumi.\n\nb. Horn says, when talking to the Neighbours, that he suspects Remora knows\nmore about them than he had previously realised.\n\nc. When Remora is first introduced he is referred to by a strange title —\nthe Prochain Ami — which even becomes the title of a chapter. This is said\nto refer to his status in relation to the Prolocutor, but it is not used\nagain. And why is anyone in Viron, whose heritage seems to be Latin\nAmerican, using French? But one possible translation of “prochain” is\n“neighbour”.\n\nSo, might Remora be a Neighbour (without ceasing to be human)? One\ninteresting consequence of this would be that we should see the Neighbours\nas confirming Quetzal’s decision that humans should go to Green (which\nmeans that there must be more to it than his just wanting humans to be\neaten)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-09-27T21:29:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Being eaten isn't the end; it's very far from the end. ;) \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 27, 2013, at 2:27 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nOK, this one is very speculative, and may seem round the bend. In the trial scene in Dorp, Windcloud says “I was one of those who boarded your whorl when it neared our sun. In the Whorl, I made the acquaintance of many of your race.” This has given rise to speculation that some people we know from _Long Sun_ may be Neighbours.\n\nThere doesn’t seem to be any suggestion that Neighbours can change shape, like inhumi, so if they are manifesting as humans it is probably by projecting their spirits into humans in a way akin to possession. We know that they were able to convey Horn’s spirit into a new body, so it is likely that they are able to do the same with their own spirits.\n\nThis got me wondering about Remora. There are three interesting facts about him.\n\na. He is well placed to observe Quetzal, and one of the reasons Neighbours are on the Whorl is to observe humanoid inhumi.\n\nb. Horn says, when talking to the Neighbours, that he suspects Remora knows more about them than he had previously realised.\n\nc. When Remora is first introduced he is referred to by a strange title — the Prochain Ami — which even becomes the title of a chapter. This is said to refer to his status in relation to the Prolocutor, but it is not used again. And why is anyone in Viron, whose heritage seems to be Latin American, using French? But one possible translation of “prochain” is “neighbour”.\n\nSo, might Remora be a Neighbour (without ceasing to be human)? One interesting consequence of this would be that we should see the Neighbours as confirming Quetzal’s decision that humans should go to Green (which means that there must be more to it than his just wanting humans to be eaten).\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-04T11:34:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: Windcloud: ?I was one of those who boarded your whorl\nwhen it neared our sun. In the Whorl, I made the acquaintance of many of\nyour race. This has given rise to speculation that some people we know\nfrom _Long Sun_ may be Neighbours." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew, I think you make good observations and arguments against Remora being\na straight-up Inhumu, like Quetzal.\n\nRegarding Windcloud's statement, I think we can be pretty sure the Neighbors \nweren't galloping around the Whorl in their multi-limbed original form, as seen\nby Horn. So I always took Windcloud's statement as being related in someway to \nthe mystery regarding the Inhumi on the Whorl and how they got there.\n\nWe aren't given the details, but surely any Neighbors who got onto the Whorl did\nso from Green, not Blue, meaning they were Neighbors who had already been infected.\nOr intertwined (as in trees and vines).\n\nI think we are supposed to get the sense that Neighbors are a higher order of being\nthan humans. And Inhumi, despite their cunning, are a lower order. So perhaps a\ncombination of the two is a good blend to walk among the middle ground of humanity. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-10-04T12:22:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding Windcloud's statement, I think we can be pretty sure the \nNeighbors\nweren't galloping around the Whorl in their multi-limbed original form, as \nseen\nby Horn. So I always took Windcloud's statement as being related in \nsomeway to\nthe mystery regarding the Inhumi on the Whorl and how they got there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's possible that they were in contact with elements of MainFrame. Or that \nthey lurked in the tunnels and contacted only selected individuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We aren't given the details, but surely any Neighbors who got onto the \nWhorl did\nso from Green, not Blue, meaning they were Neighbors who had already been \ninfected.\nOr intertwined (as in trees and vines)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where are we told that anyone becomes 'infected' by Inhumi?\n\nAs for where they launched from, it's seems reasonable to hypothesise that \nthey collected immature Inhumi from Green, but I don't know why that would \nimply that they could not have come originally from Blue. Why not just \nassume that the expedition was most likely launched from whichever planet \nhad the greater industrial complex?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ste Jervis", "address": "ste.jervis at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-05T08:50:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to remember multi-limbed creatures being a reoccurring theme on\nblue, I always assumed the neighbours were native to there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Regarding Windcloud's statement, I think we can be pretty sure the\nNeighbors\nweren't galloping around the Whorl in their multi-limbed original form,\nas\nseen\nby Horn. So I always took Windcloud's statement as being related in\nsomeway to\nthe mystery regarding the Inhumi on the Whorl and how they got there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's possible that they were in contact with elements of MainFrame. Or\nthat\nthey lurked in the tunnels and contacted only selected individuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We aren't given the details, but surely any Neighbors who got onto the\nWhorl did\nso from Green, not Blue, meaning they were Neighbors who had already been\ninfected.\nOr intertwined (as in trees and vines)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where are we told that anyone becomes 'infected' by Inhumi?\n\nAs for where they launched from, it's seems reasonable to hypothesise that\nthey collected immature Inhumi from Green, but I don't know why that would\nimply that they could not have come originally from Blue. Why not just\nassume that the expedition was most likely launched from whichever planet\nhad the greater industrial complex?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<75AD1B4F-0C0A-4CFF-822D-6BC41BA508AC@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-05T13:39:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Native is such a difficult word when you are talking about hybrids. Components from here, components from there. As the inhuma said after seeing the red sun whorl: \"we are everywhere!\" \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 5, 2013, at 1:50 AM, Ste Jervis wrote:\nI seem to remember multi-limbed creatures being a reoccurring theme on blue, I always assumed the neighbours were native to there. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Regarding Windcloud's statement, I think we can be pretty sure the\nNeighbors\nweren't galloping around the Whorl in their multi-limbed original form, as\nseen\nby Horn. So I always took Windcloud's statement as being related in\nsomeway to\nthe mystery regarding the Inhumi on the Whorl and how they got there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's possible that they were in contact with elements of MainFrame. Or that\nthey lurked in the tunnels and contacted only selected individuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We aren't given the details, but surely any Neighbors who got onto the\nWhorl did\nso from Green, not Blue, meaning they were Neighbors who had already been\ninfected.\nOr intertwined (as in trees and vines)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where are we told that anyone becomes 'infected' by Inhumi?\n\nAs for where they launched from, it's seems reasonable to hypothesise that\nthey collected immature Inhumi from Green, but I don't know why that would\nimply that they could not have come originally from Blue. Why not just\nassume that the expedition was most likely launched from whichever planet\nhad the greater industrial complex?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8B45DDCE-98C8-48F4-8BC3-F5E4207E28DE@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-05T13:41:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<75AD1B4F-0C0A-4CFF-822D-6BC41BA508AC@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The vanished gods do what gods do and create the vanished people, who have mostly left, when they can, but some of the gods remain, planted on both Green and in the form of the herbal island chains made entirely of vegetation on Blue. \n\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 5, 2013, at 6:39 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nNative is such a difficult word when you are talking about hybrids. Components from here, components from there. As the inhuma said after seeing the red sun whorl: \"we are everywhere!\" \n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 5, 2013, at 1:50 AM, Ste Jervis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to remember multi-limbed creatures being a reoccurring theme on blue, I always assumed the neighbours were native to there. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Lee Berman" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Regarding Windcloud's statement, I think we can be pretty sure the\nNeighbors\nweren't galloping around the Whorl in their multi-limbed original form, as\nseen\nby Horn. So I always took Windcloud's statement as being related in\nsomeway to\nthe mystery regarding the Inhumi on the Whorl and how they got there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's possible that they were in contact with elements of MainFrame. Or that\nthey lurked in the tunnels and contacted only selected individuals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "We aren't given the details, but surely any Neighbors who got onto the\nWhorl did\nso from Green, not Blue, meaning they were Neighbors who had already been\ninfected.\nOr intertwined (as in trees and vines)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where are we told that anyone becomes 'infected' by Inhumi?\n\nAs for where they launched from, it's seems reasonable to hypothesise that\nthey collected immature Inhumi from Green, but I don't know why that would\nimply that they could not have come originally from Blue. Why not just\nassume that the expedition was most likely launched from whichever planet\nhad the greater industrial complex?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-06T22:15:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<8B45DDCE-98C8-48F4-8BC3-F5E4207E28DE@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ste Jervis wrote:\n\nI seem to remember multi-limbed creatures being a reoccurring theme on\nblue, I always assumed the neighbours were native to there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems to be the story accepted by the characters: The Neighbours\noriginated on Blue, and are indeed akin to other creatures there. But they\nhad travelled to Green, and met the inhumi there, long before the events of\nthe story. I believe the city on Green was built by Neighbours.\n\nOf Windcloud, however, we do know that he had previously lived on Blue,\nsince he reveals that he was the original occupant of Inclito's house - he\nsays that the Rajan came to stay in his house, being invited by a man who\nwas living there (and we are indeed told that the core of Inclito's house\nwas an old Neighbour structure)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<87C51198-48CE-44EC-886A-D56ECC0CE3FC@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-07T02:35:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The house might be a hus\n\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 6, 2013, at 3:15 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nSte Jervis wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to remember multi-limbed creatures being a reoccurring theme on\nblue, I always assumed the neighbours were native to there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That seems to be the story accepted by the characters: The Neighbours originated on Blue, and are indeed akin to other creatures there. But they had travelled to Green, and met the inhumi there, long before the events of the story. I believe the city on Green was built by Neighbours.\n\nOf Windcloud, however, we do know that he had previously lived on Blue, since he reveals that he was the original occupant of Inclito's house - he says that the Rajan came to stay in his house, being invited by a man who was living there (and we are indeed told that the core of Inclito's house was an old Neighbour structure). \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2013-10-07T14:00:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 7:34 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think we are supposed to get the sense that Neighbors are a higher order\nof being\nthan humans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had always considered this to be a pretty straightforward shot at\nAristophanes's/Plato's myth about the origins of sexual orientation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-07T14:54:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: It's possible that they were in contact with elements of MainFrame. \nOr that they lurked in the tunnels and contacted only selected individuals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n\nWhat Windcloud says is: \"In the Whorl, I made the acquaintance of *many* of\nyour race. \" This would not seem to be the way one would describe electronically \nwandering around Mainframe or lurking in the tunnels. I think it implies Windcloud\nwandered around places like Viron, connecting with the regular sorts of Whorl residents\nwe know best.\n\nMoreover, we know that Inhumi have infiltrated the Whorl and walked among its residents \nincognito, I expect the revelation that Neighbors were also on the Whorl to follow a similar\npattern rather than have it be a random and purposeless event." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Native is such a difficult word when you are talking about hybrids. Components \nfrom here, components from there. As the inhuma said after seeing the red sun whorl: \n\"we are everywhere!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Such dispersion is to be expected from a species whose niche is to imitate\nother species and hitchhike. Like weeds on earth, their very essence is to be able to\ndisperse everywhere and grow anywhere.\n\nSo who/what/where on Urth do we find shapeshifters..... This has been hotly debated on\nthis board in the past. There are hints of shapeshifters on Urth to be found with Mother\nPyrexia, the angel in Melito's story, the Armiger's Daughter/lark story, and perhaps others.\nBut even the most stringent skeptics agree that Tzadkiel is a shape-shifting example which \ncannot be denied.\n\nSo, is it possible Inhumi-types could somehow evolve (or hybridize?) into mighty angelic \nbeings? The hints of an aquatic origin for Tzadkiel and Barbatus and Famulimas seem to \nhint at a connection to such beings as Abaia, Erebus, Scylla, the Mother, etc. Is Apheta's\ninsectoid nature somehow related?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: The iNeighbours whom Horn/the Rajan meets certainly seem to be higher than\nhumans, but we should remember that they thought that humans would be\nbetter able to cope with the inhumi threat than they did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My interpretation is that humans are baser animals than Neigbhors and are thus more equipped\nto resist infection by Inhumi. SilkHorn beats Jahlee to death. Other groups bury the Inhumi \nalive etc. Perhaps The Neighbors were unable to perpetrate such violent atrocities against their parasitic enemies and were forced to escape to another plane of existence. They were unable to \ndeal with the Inhumi here in the material world, as humans are at least partially able to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of Windcloud, however, we do know that he had previously lived on Blue,\nsince he reveals that he was the original occupant of Inclito's house - he\nsays that the Rajan came to stay in his house, being invited by a man who\nwas living there (and we are indeed told that the core of Inclito's house\nwas an old Neighbour structure). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point. But is there any indication that Neighbors have a lifespan? If he is more or less\nimmortal, couldn't Windcloud have originally lived in Inclito's place then gone to Green and \nbecome entwined with the parasitic Inhumi? Getting onto the Whorl and being able to walk among\nand interact with humans seems so completely Inhumi-like. My sense is that the original Neighbors prefer to keep to themselves. Horn has to go to their camp, not vice versa. (Remaining above vs.\nmixing it up with the humans and their lives. I think there is a God/Demiurge/Devil analogy in \nthere somewhere)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The discuission reminds me of Fifth Head of Cerberus, in which all parties \n(I think particularly of the three groups present on Sainte Anne before the \nFrench landing, but it applies equally well to humans thereafter) seem \nfairly well convinced of their own race's superiority. Though in truth no \ngroup, aboriginal or human, appeared to have too much to be proud of." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I think that is a good, objective, agnostic sort of analysis that I would tend to share,\npersonally.\n\nBut in his writing and also in interviews, Gene Wolfe seems to express a personal belief in higher\nand lower beings. so I have to interpret his work in light of these apparent intentions. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-07T21:40:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\nThe house might be a hus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Who would the other man be on that reading?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Bitterman wrote:\nI had always considered this to be a pretty straightforward shot at\nAristophanes's/Plato's myth about the origins of sexual orientation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like that. I was about to protest that the Neighbours are gendered (The\nNeighbour Horn, Windcloud, and the one who gave human Horn the sword are\nhe's: the one who transfers his spirit to the Whorl is a she), but of\ncourse so are Aristophanes' double beings; the myth isn't meant to explain\ngender, just sexual desire or love." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nWhat Windcloud says is: \"In the Whorl, I made the acquaintance of *many* of\nyour race. \" This would not seem to be the way one would describe\nelectronically\nwandering around Mainframe or lurking in the tunnels. I think it implies\nWindcloud\nwandered around places like Viron, connecting with the regular sorts of\nWhorl residents\nwe know best." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I take it Gerry meant they met the human staff of Mainframe. But of course,\nsince part of their purpose in being there was to observe humanoid inhumi,\none would think they would also have to be in the cities, where the inhumi\nare. (I believe Marc thinks Quetzal's tree is a Neighbour: this may be\nright, but a tree isn't well-placed to make the acquaintance of many\nhumans, so it's likely there are some in human form as well.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My interpretation is that humans are baser animals than Neigbhors and are\nthus more equipped\nto resist infection by Inhumi. SilkHorn beats Jahlee to death. Other\ngroups bury the Inhumi\nalive etc. Perhaps The Neighbors were unable to perpetrate such violent\natrocities against their parasitic enemies and were forced to escape to\nanother plane of existence. They were unable to\ndeal with the Inhumi here in the material world, as humans are at least\npartially able to do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the inhumi believe that humans could defeat them by being more noble\n- that is the point of the 'Secret'. And when the Rajan says that this is\n'a weapon too heavy for our hands', he also says that the Neighbours knew\nof it but were unable to use it - which suggests to me that they do hope\nhumans will be able to wield it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of Windcloud, however, we do know that he had previously lived on Blue,\nsince he reveals that he was the original occupant of Inclito's house - he\nsays that the Rajan came to stay in his house, being invited by a man who\nwas living there (and we are indeed told that the core of Inclito's house\nwas an old Neighbour structure)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good point. But is there any indication that Neighbors have a lifespan?\n If he is more or less\nimmortal, couldn't Windcloud have originally lived in Inclito's place then\ngone to Green and\nbecome entwined with the parasitic Inhumi?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's certainly possible. But I'm uncertain of the idea of Neighbours\nbecoming like inhumi. Even if we take the 'entwining' image to refer to the\nrelation of Neighbours and inhumi, it doesn't force us to think that; a\nvine and the tree it entwines remain separate entities. And in general\ninhumi become like their victims rather than the other way round." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5A93DC5A-1344-47E8-B4C7-0246D41102BD@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-08T06:16:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I need to look at it again but I think this is a silk, horn, and windcloud kind of hus sharing. Eventually it's just Horn in there but the hus is a nice intermediate house for displaced spirits. Remember by that point I believe the rajah to be fully silk and horn to be almost entirely in Babbie since the last chapter of one when he says goodbye and Babbie actually shows up, being called by his name. \n\nThe tree of quetzal is not a neighbor but probably a vanished god, as are the cannibal trees on green and the giant \"herbs\" that make up the islands on blue.\n\nThe trees can make new vanished people or neighbors but are not \"really\" them. \n \nThe liana actually are primitive inhuma who have not been exposed to animal or human blood in some generations. Eating and drinking are important to these creatures, but the recombinatory affect of the liana-adult inhumi may very well be a product of parasitizing the vanished gods-trees, who have the ability to produce hybrid offspring much more effectively than the debased lianas. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 7, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\nMarc Aramini wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The house might be a hus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Who would the other man be on that reading?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00BD82D7-E43C-499C-B9BD-4BA3725F1B85@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-08T06:18:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<5A93DC5A-1344-47E8-B4C7-0246D41102BD@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since the last chapter of obw. Autocorrect on phones is terrible for this kind of posting. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 7, 2013, at 11:16 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI need to look at it again but I think this is a silk, horn, and windcloud kind of hus sharing. Eventually it's just Horn in there but the hus is a nice intermediate house for displaced spirits. Remember by that point I believe the rajah to be fully silk and horn to be almost entirely in Babbie since the last chapter of OBW when he says goodbye and Babbie actually shows up, being called by his name. \n\nThe tree of quetzal is not a neighbor but probably a vanished god, as are the cannibal trees on green and the giant \"herbs\" that make up the islands on blue.\n\nThe trees can make new vanished people or neighbors but are not \"really\" them. \n \nThe liana actually are primitive inhuma who have not been exposed to animal or human blood in some generations. Eating and drinking are important to these creatures, but the recombinatory affect of the liana-adult inhumi may very well be a product of parasitizing the vanished gods-trees, who have the ability to produce hybrid offspring much more effectively than the debased lianas. \n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 7, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The house might be a hus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Who would the other man be on that reading?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7DF6CFA1-6D2D-4A84-BAC2-77715332F48E@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-08T06:24:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course there is a pretty big correlation between windcloud and typhoons, or at least a conceivable one. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 7, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\nMarc Aramini wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The house might be a hus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Who would the other man be on that reading?\n\n\nThomas Bitterman wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had always considered this to be a pretty straightforward shot at\nAristophanes's/Plato's myth about the origins of sexual orientation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like that. I was about to protest that the Neighbours are gendered (The Neighbour Horn, Windcloud, and the one who gave human Horn the sword are he's: the one who transfers his spirit to the Whorl is a she), but of course so are Aristophanes' double beings; the myth isn't meant to explain gender, just sexual desire or love. \n\nLee Berman wrote: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What Windcloud says is: \"In the Whorl, I made the acquaintance of *many* of\nyour race. \" This would not seem to be the way one would describe electronically\nwandering around Mainframe or lurking in the tunnels. I think it implies Windcloud\nwandered around places like Viron, connecting with the regular sorts of Whorl residents\nwe know best." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I take it Gerry meant they met the human staff of Mainframe. But of course, since part of their purpose in being there was to observe humanoid inhumi, one would think they would also have to be in the cities, where the inhumi are. (I believe Marc thinks Quetzal's tree is a Neighbour: this may be right, but a tree isn't well-placed to make the acquaintance of many humans, so it's likely there are some in human form as well.) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My interpretation is that humans are baser animals than Neigbhors and are thus more equipped\nto resist infection by Inhumi. SilkHorn beats Jahlee to death. Other groups bury the Inhumi\nalive etc. Perhaps The Neighbors were unable to perpetrate such violent atrocities against their parasitic enemies and were forced to escape to another plane of existence. They were unable to\ndeal with the Inhumi here in the material world, as humans are at least partially able to do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, the inhumi believe that humans could defeat them by being more noble - that is the point of the 'Secret'. And when the Rajan says that this is 'a weapon too heavy for our hands', he also says that the Neighbours knew of it but were unable to use it - which suggests to me that they do hope humans will be able to wield it. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of Windcloud, however, we do know that he had previously lived on Blue,\nsince he reveals that he was the original occupant of Inclito's house - he\nsays that the Rajan came to stay in his house, being invited by a man who\nwas living there (and we are indeed told that the core of Inclito's house\nwas an old Neighbour structure)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Good point. But is there any indication that Neighbors have a lifespan? If he is more or less\nimmortal, couldn't Windcloud have originally lived in Inclito's place then gone to Green and\nbecome entwined with the parasitic Inhumi?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's certainly possible. But I'm uncertain of the idea of Neighbours becoming like inhumi. Even if we take the 'entwining' image to refer to the relation of Neighbours and inhumi, it doesn't force us to think that; a vine and the tree it entwines remain separate entities. And in general inhumi become like their victims rather than the other way round. \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8421E406-9705-4909-8B26-5ABE2A3D0C86@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-08T14:10:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<87C51198-48CE-44EC-886A-D56ECC0CE3FC@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just wanted to clarify my biological scheme for inhuma and neighbors one more time in light of the tree on the whorl being called a \"parent\".\n\nThe trees are vanished gods, different from vanished people in that they haven't gone anywhere but they \"create \" all multilimbed creatures by \"eating\" creatures and spitting out stronger hybrids, symbolized by the doubled limbs of bluvian life, which was once not doubled and had half the chromosomes.\n\nThus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left. \n\nLiana vines parasitized the mystical life of the god-trees but failed to attain it fully. They drink blood but revert to their primitive form. Reptilian victims breed reptilian generations of inhuma, human victims breed sentient inhuma. \n\nThe multilimbed creature rising up from the sea might not be ancient. A sailor is shot and falls into the ocean. Is that genetic material enough to create a new hybrid with the giant herbs that are actually the islands on blue? However, perhaps it is ancient, with all the accumulation of detritus and rot, unless that is a feature of the submerged god.\n\nIt is a morlock-Eloi scheme- both inhuma and vanished people are simultaneously convergent and divergent evolution through consumption. Both are vegetable and human to achieve sentience, but the inhuma are a more sterile and imitative combination, not a true hybrid, who must always drink of the blood, but do not have life within them eternal. \n\nThe neighbor Horn is only made after Horn falls into the pit, which can be inferred to be the Maw of one of the giant herbs that make up the islands on blue. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5254285C.5080401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-08T15:44:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<8421E406-9705-4909-8B26-5ABE2A3D0C86@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note: It's inhumu (m), inhuma (f), inhumi (p), maybe ?inhumae (fp)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5254288C.10103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-10-08T15:45:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<8421E406-9705-4909-8B26-5ABE2A3D0C86@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/8/2013 10:10 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, where did these humans come from? Were they earlier settlers? Or \nis Green Urth?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-08T22:04:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<5254288C.10103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nThe tree of quetzal is not a neighbor but probably a vanished god, as are\nthe cannibal trees on green and the giant \"herbs\" that make up the islands\non blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, that makes more sense. I'm sure some people have claimed that trees are\nNeighbours, but I have never found it convincing. trees as Vanished Gods is\nmuch more plausible - at least one tree seems to be a god (the one the\nRajan meets at the end of OBW), so it's quite believable that others are as\nwell. (I don't think every god is a tree, though - the Mother doesn't seem\nto be. I'm also doubtful that all the islands are made up of herbs - Horn\nfinds some which are, but they then break up in a storm.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Lee Berman wrote:\n1. In their experience with humans, wouldn't the Neighbors more likely to\nfind Horn as\na typical representation of the species than Silk? And while Silk was\nsurely kind and\ngentle, he clearly had the capacity for violence and destruction when he\nfelt the need." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding is that the Neighbours' judgement of humans is based\nprimarily on their experience of humanoid inhumi - so on Quetzal, among\nothers. I think Quetzal is by and large a noble character, despite his need\nto drink blood; even if at the end he is sacrificing the humans (and it's\nnot clear to me he is doing exactly that) he is sacrificing them for the\nbenefit of his people, not for a purely selfish end." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marquez wrote:\nNote: It's inhumu (m), inhuma (f), inhumi (p), maybe ?inhumae (fp)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "According to the Rajan at the end of RTTW:\n\n'I have been on friendly terms with three, however. No, four... With two\ninhumus, Your Cognizance, and two inhumas.' 'Inhumi' is the generic plural when\ngender is not specified. I'm fairly sure that 'an inhumi' occurs in at\nleast one place as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "<33361786-248F-4CBD-926C-F4FD4E79E90B@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T02:35:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<5254288C.10103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You know it, Green is urth. Typhon's ark didn't wind up going anywhere. ;) quetzal sneaking into the whorl whenever is no problem. This is the fate of people.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 10/8/2013 10:10 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc, where did these humans come from? Were they earlier settlers? Or is Green Urth?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1381287670.40502.YahooMailNeo@web160706.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T03:01:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<33361786-248F-4CBD-926C-F4FD4E79E90B@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I remember the fond days when I would bounce my ideas off Gene and he would write me return letters on the back pages of his original short sun manuscript. He is a lover of games. \n\nAfter the Green is Urth debacle he stopped answering my questions, but every great once in a while he will make a comment. When I discovered Peter Palmer was an actor who played Lil Abner born in 1931 and that the history of the word oaf implies an elfin changeling, and that this accounted for the missing 3 years in our characters lives, Gene only replied, I always loved 'Lil Abner. What a wonderful man.\n\n\n\nOn Tuesday, October 8, 2013 7:35 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n \nYou know it, Green is urth. Typhon's ark didn't wind up going anywhere. ;) quetzal sneaking into the whorl whenever is no problem. This is the fate of people.\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 8, 2013, at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 10/8/2013 10:10 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc, where did these humans come from? Were they earlier settlers? Or is Green Urth?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T08:37:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<33361786-248F-4CBD-926C-F4FD4E79E90B@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not 'Green is Urth' but 'Urth is Green'. I've always found the choice of word order significant. I just have no idea what it signifies. \n\n\n\nNo dia 09/10/2013, ?s 03:35, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You know it, Green is urth. Typhon's ark didn't wind up going anywhere. ;) quetzal sneaking into the whorl whenever is no problem. This is the fate of people.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 8, 2013, at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/8/2013 10:10 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Thus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc, where did these humans come from? Were they earlier settlers? Or is Green Urth?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4D343761-40E1-4AA3-AFC4-3BF022A735D5@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T09:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(unless I'm mistaken about the order!)\n\nNo dia 09/10/2013, ?s 09:37, Ant?nio Pedro Marques escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not 'Green is Urth' but 'Urth is Green'. I've always found the choice of word order significant. I just have no idea what it signifies. \n\n\n\nNo dia 09/10/2013, ?s 03:35, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You know it, Green is urth. Typhon's ark didn't wind up going anywhere. ;) quetzal sneaking into the whorl whenever is no problem. This is the fate of people.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 8, 2013, at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 10/8/2013 10:10 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Thus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc, where did these humans come from? Were they earlier settlers? Or is Green Urth?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5255411C.3030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-10-09T11:42:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<4D343761-40E1-4AA3-AFC4-3BF022A735D5@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Either way, it adds up but I can't get my head around it.\n\nThe biggest question (I know we've been over this but I don't recall a \nsatisfactory answer) is, \"What is Blue?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/9/2013 5:55 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\n(unless I'm mistaken about the order!)\n\nNo dia 09/10/2013, ?s 09:37, Ant?nio Pedro Marques escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not 'Green is Urth' but 'Urth is Green'. I've always found the choice of word order significant. I just have no idea what it signifies.\n\n\n\nNo dia 09/10/2013, ?s 03:35, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You know it, Green is urth. Typhon's ark didn't wind up going anywhere. ;) quetzal sneaking into the whorl whenever is no problem. This is the fate of people.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Oct 8, 2013, at 8:45 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 10/8/2013 10:10 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Thus the vanished people are all that was left of humanity after they were eaten and hybridized, and they left." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Marc, where did these humans come from? Were they earlier settlers? Or is Green Urth?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andreas Johansson", "address": "andreas.havok at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T12:02:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "<5255411C.3030201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just finished *Book of the Short Sun* recently, for the first time so I'm\npretty sure you've already discussed this until death & beyond, but I was\nstruck by the idea that Green isn't Urth - Green is Lune, Blue is Urth,\nafter the flood in Urth of the New Sun. That is, Typhon-Pas (funny how a\nmythological chaos dragon changed his name to \"Peace\") somehow sent the\nWhorl beyond Severian's re-creation/eschaton/whatever. How? I have no idea.\nHow does that account for the Neighbours & the inhumi? I have even less of\nan idea. There are probably three-hundred reasons in the texts why this\ndoesn't make sense, and I'm eager to hear about them. But the pairing of a\nblue planet (Earth is blue. Urth is/was/will (not) be blue) and the green\nneighbour ... well I don't know. It looks good to me.\n\nHere's for a Gene Wolfe/Urth list newbie making his first post around here\n(have only read BotNS thrice yet, mind you)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "/Andreas" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T12:52:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio: (unless I'm mistaken about the order!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Marc, of course, is the real authority. But in response to a discussion \non whether Blue was Urth, I thought Marc said it was a handwritten note which read:\n\n\"No, no no! GREEN is Urth\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The biggest question (I know we've been over this but I don't recall \na satisfactory answer) is, \"What is Blue?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the context of the response, and an author who is likely crafty even in his \npersonal correspondence regarding his work, I'm satified with my answer. Which is:\n\nThat Green is spiritually similar to Urth, being a planet being dominated and under the \nthrall of (biological) corruption. While Urth is darkened by a dying sun, Green is darkened\nby relentless choking jungles. But the similarity is there.\n\nAs Severian cleansing the Vincula symbolically presages the Flood and cleansing of Urth, so \nHorn's cleansing of the Sewer presages the upcoming flood and cleansing of Green. \n\n(did Heracles cleansing of the Augean Stables presage the Flood on Earth in 2304 BC?)\n\nWell, anyway, for me the answer to \"What is Blue?\" is: Ushas.\n\nNot literally, but they are a spiritual match. Ushas, like Blue, is a world of oceans and a \ngolden sun and lost civilizations found beneath their waters. They both have demons (Juturna,\nThe Mother, Inhumi) but, unlike Urth, Green (and antediluvian Earth) the demons are manageable \nand can be overcome by the human species. Isn't this our own current condition?\n\n(My understanding of Gene Wolfe's understanding of Genesis 6:4 is that the earth was \nonce populated by giant nephilim, offspring of fallen angels. They were too much for\nregular humans to overcome, hence the Flood which mostly eliminated them. We still have our \ndemons but they are now managable, with some effort.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T13:47:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andreas Johansson: Here's for a Gene Wolfe/Urth list newbie making his \nfirst post around here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome first post, Andreas!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..the pairing of a blue planet (Earth is blue. Urth is/was/will (not) be blue) and the green>neighbour ... well I don't know. It looks good to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some have noted that Sainte Anne and Sainte Croix in Fifth Head of Cerberus seem to follow a\nsimilar pattern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but I was struck by the idea that Green isn't Urth - Green is Lune, Blue is Urth, \nafter the flood in Urth of the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this had been discussed here a number of years ago and, if I understand correctly,\nit was that conversation which prompted Marc to write to Gene Wolfe about it, at which\ntime he received the response, \"No, no no! GREEN is Urth\".\n\nI think Marc does take the answer literally. And there are some hints that the city on\nGreen is or is continuous with Nessus on Urth. Also, at the end of RTTW, the dream\ntraveller (Hoof I think..) comments on Urth's Lune as though it were a different sort\nof Green (but closer).\n\nAs noted in my recent post, I prefer to take Gene Wolfe's comment and the planet\nsimilarities more symbolically. I think Wolfe is telling stories about planets and\nthe human species going through spiritual progression. As our Earth went through\na Flood and spiritual transformation 4000 years ago, so we see Urth transformed into\nUshas during the course of BotNS. Blue has already undergone this transformation. Green \n(like Urth) has not yet, but will. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is, Typhon-Pas (funny how a mythological chaos dragon changed his name to \"Peace\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Somewhere in Long Sun is a passage suggesting that the name \"Pas\" is derived from the root\nfor \"all\". This suggests the god Pan who had an epithet of \"Pas\" to reflect his pastoral origins.\nAnd Pan became conflated with Dionysus as an \"all\"-encompassing god after the Greco-Roman\npantheons had faded but before Christianity arose. \n\nThe Outsider god is introduced at the very beginning of Long sun, but by the end of Short Sun\nhe has been rather explicitly associated with Dionysus. How this relates Typhon/Pas/Silk (silver\nand silent) to the Outsider is rather mysterious to me. But I think we are just supposed to get a\nconfusing sense of association. We are not supposed to understand it in a crystal clear way, much\nas the ancients mixed up and conflated the gods in confusing ways.\n\nInvoking the meaning of \"Peace\" is interesting (perhaps Entonio can confirm that the root for \"paz\"\nis related to \"pastoral\"?). Of course Peace is a notable novel by Gene Wolfe, one that some think\nis rather autobiographical. With the character Pas, I suspect Gene Wolfe of inserting himself into\nhis stories (as he has done before). This with recongition that he isn't a true God, like the \nOutsider, but an aspect of Him; a demiurgical creator of these worlds/stories as Pas was the\ndemiurgical creator of The Whorl. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-09T20:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun notes: Remora", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mechanism is missing. I was looking for a way that different time could pass between rigoglio leaving urth and showing up midstream at sev's time, but it wasnt there because wolfe pulled the bait and switch. Blue is colder than Urth. Green is hotter. When silk shows up on urth, he was imagining a time before green's corruption; that is the mechanism. The city of the inhumi is Nessus. The planets have been switched just like our narrators: we think silk is missing but he is there all along; it is horn we should be looking for. Wolfe meant to obfuscate who, what, when, why, and where. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 9, 2013, at 5:02 AM, Andreas Johansson wrote:\nJust finished Book of the Short Sun recently, for the first time so I'm pretty sure you've already discussed this until death & beyond, but I was struck by the idea that Green isn't Urth - Green is Lune, Blue is Urth, after the flood in Urth of the New Sun. That is, Typhon-Pas (funny how a mythological chaos dragon changed his name to \"Peace\") somehow sent the Whorl beyond Severian's re-creation/eschaton/whatever. How? I have no idea. How does that account for the Neighbours & the inhumi? I have even less of an idea. There are probably three-hundred reasons in the texts why this doesn't make sense, and I'm eager to hear about them. But the pairing of a blue planet (Earth is blue. Urth is/was/will (not) be blue) and the green neighbour ... well I don't know. It looks good to me.\n\nHere's for a Gene Wolfe/Urth list newbie making his first post around here (have only read BotNS thrice yet, mind you).\n\n-- \n/Andreas\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }