{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6451", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6451, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2013-10-11T07:40:52+00:00", "last": "2013-10-11T12:26:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andreas Johansson", "address": "andreas.havok at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-11T07:40:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seems more and more as if the relations between \"our\" solar system an that\nof Blue should be considered symbolical, another doppelg?nger. Which has a\nvery rational explanation - Typhon sent the Whorl to colonize another\nplanet, seems reasonable that he should send it to a planet that resembles\na pristine Urth. A very down-to-earth, common sense explanation that's not\nvery satisfying, but nonetheless it gives all the mind-blowing depth of\nWolfe a refreshing rationality. Which is of course already there, the SF\ntropes hinted at from time to time (it's still just a generation ship run\nby computer-gods, loaded with deeper meaning).\n\nAnd come to think of it, Urthlings in our deep future/Severian's deep past\ntravelled all across the galaxy, right? Are Horn & the other whorlings\nnecessary the first humans to reach Blue & Green?\n\nWas going to ask also about the chronological work-out between the Whorl\nand Urth, since Typhon's reign seems to be much more than three centuries\npast from Severian's age (if the astral projection to Urth isn't a time\ntravel as well), but then I realized: time dilation & relativity. Ship time\ndoesn't equal planet time - who knows how long the Whorl was really out\nthere, and how far they've travelled? The crew at the East Pole could\nsurely answe that but then again no-one asks them. Fascinating how Wolfe\ncreated the Whorl cultures in such a pre-enlightenment setting.\n\n(still just scratching the surface of discussions that must've gone before,\nbut there is no possiblity to read through all the Urthlist archive - even\nthough I'm often tempted haggling through dull days like these at the\nlibrary...)\n\n/Andreas\n\n-----------\n*The thing, the thing is, that if Urth is Green then there's no easy\nexplanation, but if Urth is Blue, then the obvious explanation for the Ring\nof Glass is that it's the ruins of Father Inire's Atropaic Gardens. (I hope\nI'm remembering that name right.)*\n\n*Perhaps *both *Blue and Green are Urth?*\n\n*--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n*" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2013-10-11T10:10:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andreas Johansson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seems more and more as if the relations between \"our\" solar system\n an that of Blue should be considered symbolical, another doppelg?nger.\nWhich has a very rational explanation - Typhon sent the Whorl to colonize\n another planet, seems reasonable that he should send it to a planet that\n resembles a pristine Urth. A very down-to-earth, common sense\nexplanation that's not very satisfying, but nonetheless it gives all the\nmind-blowing depth of Wolfe a refreshing rationality. Which is of course\nalready there, the SF tropes hinted at from time to time (it's still just \na\n generation ship run by computer-gods, loaded with deeper meaning)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. Indeed, I would argue that \"it was Earth all along\" (to quote from \nthe Planet of the Apes musical in The Simpsons) is actually too much of an \nSF cliche. Wolfe aims at subtler targets than such cheeseball revelations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was going to ask also about the chronological work-out between the Whorl \nand\nUrth, since Typhon's reign seems to be much more than three centuries past \nfrom\nSeverian's age (if the astral projection to Urth isn't a time travel as \nwell), but then\n I realized: time dilation & relativity. Ship time doesn't equal planet \ntime - who\nknows how long the Whorl was really out there, and how far they've \ntravelled?\n The crew at the East Pole could surely answe that but then again no-one \nasks them.\n Fascinating how Wolfe created the Whorl cultures in such a \npre-enlightenment setting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's worth noting that in Return to the Whorl, Silk/Horn specifically points \nout the Sun as a faint red star in the sky of Blue.\n\nThat does actually raise some questions if you look at it in depth, because \nyou shouldn't be able to see such a star more than about fifty light years \naway. Yet three hundred and fifty years seems a bit short for the time \nbetween Typhon and Severian on Urth, so one naturally invokes time dilation, \nwhich would in turn place them a multiple of 350 light years away, perhaps \nup to 2000 light years or so, from where the Sun would certainly be \ninvisible.\n\nThere is also the question of why Typhon was bothered by the dimming of the \nSun, if he could build engines powerful enough to accelerate the Whorl to a \nsubstantial fraction of light speed, he could easily have built satellites \nto warm Urth.\n\nI take the view that Wolfe probably didn't consider these details so \nclosely, and that we are intended to assume that time dilation took place \nand Blue is in fact 1000-2000 light years away from Urth. [In short, I \nwould apply the same caution to reading the science too closely as I would \napply to reading other elements...]\n\nBut if you want to go with a hard SF interpretation, they went about fifty \nlight years in total, and there was no significant time dilation. 350 years \nago on Earth today was 1663, so it is still time enough for a lot of \nhistory.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-10-11T11:54:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ".Andreas Johansson: Was going to ask also about the chronological work-out between " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Whorl and Urth, since Typhon's reign seems to be much more than three centuries \npast from Severian's age (if the astral projection to Urth isn't a time travel as well), \nbut then I realized: time dilation & relativity. Ship time doesn't equal planet time - who \nknows how long the Whorl was really out there, and how far they've travelled?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, among those who scour the text for timeline clues, many arrive at a figure of around\n1000 years of age for the Commonwealth, so Typhon's reign was at least that much earlier\nthan Severian's time.\n\nMoreover, at the end of RTTW, Hoof comments that some Typhonian artifact on Urth \n(the Red Sun Whorl) seems older than 300 years, and SilkHorn confirms that it is,\nindeed much older. Time dilation seems a likely explanation to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon sent the Whorl to colonize another planet, seems reasonable that he should send it to \na planet that resembles a pristine Urth..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...And come to think of it, Urthlings in our deep future/Severian's deep past travelled all across \nthe galaxy, right? Are Horn & the other whorlings necessary the first humans to reach Blue & Green?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In BotNS it is implied that the human race expanded out from Urth and changed/evolved. So some,\n(perhaps all) of the alien \"cacogens\" are really evolved humans who have returned to their\nplanet of origin. Thus B, F and O start with ill-fitting human masks which reveal horrific\nfaces underneath. But when the horrific masks are removed, faces of superhuman beauty are\nrevealed.\n\nSo, perhaps The Neighbors had a human origin?\n\nSome wonder whether Typhon had his origin on Blue and was using the Whorl to send human worshippers\n(tribute of fair women and boys?) back to his home planet. Perhaps also back to the \"Mother\"?. \n\n(The \"Mother\" representing Echidna in some fashion, the mythological Echidna being the \"Mother\nOf All Monsters\" while her mate Typhon was the \"Father Of All Monsters\". We do see electronic Echidna\nhaving a zest for human sacrifice in Long Sun and The Mother on Blue enjoying drowned sailors.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<33F782E2-6893-40D6-B98B-8978EA210CBE@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-11T11:58:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This time line is exacerbated by the decimal slip in maytera's thoughts at one point in long sun. You know, 300 years, 3000 years, whatever. \n\nI think Wolfe intended the relationship to be literal but impossible to prove, a nagging feeling of possibility that requires a sophisticated physical and biological mechanism just hinted at throughout. Enough equation between the city of the inhumi and Nessus and enough synchronicity between the mythic re-enactment of a man with a sword and a light letting free the waters and clearing out a sewer to be an echo of Severian's myth on Green. \n\nHybridization equals INSTANT Speciation. Eat em all, spit em out. Could be very little time for the few animals left on urth to be changed. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 11, 2013, at 3:10 AM, \"Gerry Quinn\" wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Andreas Johansson" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seems more and more as if the relations between \"our\" solar system\nan that of Blue should be considered symbolical, another doppelg?nger.\nWhich has a very rational explanation - Typhon sent the Whorl to colonize\nanother planet, seems reasonable that he should send it to a planet that\nresembles a pristine Urth. A very down-to-earth, common sense\nexplanation that's not very satisfying, but nonetheless it gives all the\nmind-blowing depth of Wolfe a refreshing rationality. Which is of course\nalready there, the SF tropes hinted at from time to time (it's still just a\ngeneration ship run by computer-gods, loaded with deeper meaning)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. Indeed, I would argue that \"it was Earth all along\" (to quote from the Planet of the Apes musical in The Simpsons) is actually too much of an SF cliche. Wolfe aims at subtler targets than such cheeseball revelations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was going to ask also about the chronological work-out between the Whorl and\nUrth, since Typhon's reign seems to be much more than three centuries past from\nSeverian's age (if the astral projection to Urth isn't a time travel as well), but then\nI realized: time dilation & relativity. Ship time doesn't equal planet time - who\nknows how long the Whorl was really out there, and how far they've travelled?\nThe crew at the East Pole could surely answe that but then again no-one asks them.\nFascinating how Wolfe created the Whorl cultures in such a pre-enlightenment setting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's worth noting that in Return to the Whorl, Silk/Horn specifically points out the Sun as a faint red star in the sky of Blue.\n\nThat does actually raise some questions if you look at it in depth, because you shouldn't be able to see such a star more than about fifty light years away. Yet three hundred and fifty years seems a bit short for the time between Typhon and Severian on Urth, so one naturally invokes time dilation, which would in turn place them a multiple of 350 light years away, perhaps up to 2000 light years or so, from where the Sun would certainly be invisible.\n\nThere is also the question of why Typhon was bothered by the dimming of the Sun, if he could build engines powerful enough to accelerate the Whorl to a substantial fraction of light speed, he could easily have built satellites to warm Urth.\n\nI take the view that Wolfe probably didn't consider these details so closely, and that we are intended to assume that time dilation took place and Blue is in fact 1000-2000 light years away from Urth. [In short, I would apply the same caution to reading the science too closely as I would apply to reading other elements...]\n\nBut if you want to go with a hard SF interpretation, they went about fifty light years in total, and there was no significant time dilation. 350 years ago on Earth today was 1663, so it is still time enough for a lot of history.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6F48E156-63D2-4C75-8D98-44878E0848A1@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-11T12:08:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course there is time travel or the rajan and Oreb would not show up in the past stories so frequently as themselves so obviously. Before they go to Urth the first time the narrator imagines Green before the corruption hit. It kind of befuddles me how a series with time travel all over the place and the bending of light, time, and space in its earliest entries suddenly wouldn't involve it in its final iterations. \n\nThe narrators don't know what's going on in Short Sun- they don't know who they are or where they are. Looking at the sky they are lost. \n\n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 11, 2013, at 4:54 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n.Andreas Johansson: Was going to ask also about the chronological work-out between \nthe Whorl and Urth, since Typhon's reign seems to be much more than three centuries \npast from Severian's age (if the astral projection to Urth isn't a time travel as well), \nbut then I realized: time dilation & relativity. Ship time doesn't equal planet time - who \nknows how long the Whorl was really out there, and how far they've travelled?\n\nYes, among those who scour the text for timeline clues, many arrive at a figure of around\n1000 years of age for the Commonwealth, so Typhon's reign was at least that much earlier\nthan Severian's time.\n\nMoreover, at the end of RTTW, Hoof comments that some Typhonian artifact on Urth \n(the Red Sun Whorl) seems older than 300 years, and SilkHorn confirms that it is,\nindeed much older. Time dilation seems a likely explanation to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon sent the Whorl to colonize another planet, seems reasonable that he should send it to \na planet that resembles a pristine Urth..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...And come to think of it, Urthlings in our deep future/Severian's deep past travelled all across \nthe galaxy, right? Are Horn & the other whorlings necessary the first humans to reach Blue & Green?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In BotNS it is implied that the human race expanded out from Urth and changed/evolved. So some,\n(perhaps all) of the alien \"cacogens\" are really evolved humans who have returned to their\nplanet of origin. Thus B, F and O start with ill-fitting human masks which reveal horrific\nfaces underneath. But when the horrific masks are removed, faces of superhuman beauty are\nrevealed.\n\nSo, perhaps The Neighbors had a human origin?\n\nSome wonder whether Typhon had his origin on Blue and was using the Whorl to send human worshippers\n(tribute of fair women and boys?) back to his home planet. Perhaps also back to the \"Mother\"?. \n\n(The \"Mother\" representing Echidna in some fashion, the mythological Echidna being the \"Mother\nOf All Monsters\" while her mate Typhon was the \"Father Of All Monsters\". We do see electronic Echidna\nhaving a zest for human sacrifice in Long Sun and The Mother on Blue enjoying drowned sailors.) \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<50B6F7BB-07CA-4100-953D-27D51BB7FC58@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-10-11T12:26:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 110, Issue 10", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This one will always be my hobgoblin no matter how many other of my readings are seen as plausible, probably from the heaps and heaps (and heaps) of abuse it garnered circa 2002. \n\nIt is quite literally the story of humanities destiny- sev's salvation turns out to be not at all for mankind, an his new world becomes hellish for those who don't move on, completely unrecognizable. Terrible and unforeseeable, not a cliche the way he does it. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Oct 11, 2013, at 12:40 AM, Andreas Johansson wrote:\nSeems more and more as if the relations between \"our\" solar system an that of Blue should be considered symbolical, another doppelg?nger. Which has a very rational explanation - Typhon sent the Whorl to colonize another planet, seems reasonable that he should send it to a planet that resembles a pristine Urth. A very down-to-earth, common sense explanation that's not very satisfying, but nonetheless it gives all the mind-blowing depth of Wolfe a refreshing rationality. Which is of course already there, the SF tropes hinted at from time to time (it's still just a generation ship run by computer-gods, loaded with deeper meaning). \n \nAnd come to think of it, Urthlings in our deep future/Severian's deep past travelled all across the galaxy, right? Are Horn & the other whorlings necessary the first humans to reach Blue & Green?\n \nWas going to ask also about the chronological work-out between the Whorl and Urth, since Typhon's reign seems to be much more than three centuries past from Severian's age (if the astral projection to Urth isn't a time travel as well), but then I realized: time dilation & relativity. Ship time doesn't equal planet time - who knows how long the Whorl was really out there, and how far they've travelled? The crew at the East Pole could surely answe that but then again no-one asks them. Fascinating how Wolfe created the Whorl cultures in such a pre-enlightenment setting.\n \n(still just scratching the surface of discussions that must've gone before, but there is no possiblity to read through all the Urthlist archive - even though I'm often tempted haggling through dull days like these at the library...)\n \n/Andreas\n \n-----------\nThe thing, the thing is, that if Urth is Green then there's no easy\nexplanation, but if Urth is Blue, then the obvious explanation for the Ring\nof Glass is that it's the ruins of Father Inire's Atropaic Gardens. (I hope\nI'm remembering that name right.)\nPerhaps *both *Blue and Green are Urth?\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }