{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6464", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6464, "subject": "Seawrack", "messages": 11, "voices": 5, "first": "2013-11-13T07:37:06+00:00", "last": "2013-11-26T22:26:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Darrell Burgan", "address": "darrell.burgan at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-13T07:37:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role of\nSeawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in\nOBW, but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is\ninvolved in the many great arcs of the story.\n\nI can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to\nunderstanding the Short Sun epic. I'd love to hear people's thoughts about\nhow they see her role. Myself, I'm just stumped.\n\nDarrell" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Darrell Burgan\nhttp://palancar.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-22T16:14:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I \nDarrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role \nof Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, \nbut there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the \nmany great arcs of the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented.\nOne is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was \ntaken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her\nand mutated her into a sea being.\n\nI think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more \nacceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found\nbetween the lines.\n\nSeawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of\nthe giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to\nthe female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably\nalso in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth.\n\nAbaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same\nthing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its \nfemale crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most\nprominent female on that boat. I think that \"pirate ship\" was The Mother.\n\nIn mythology, Echidna is the \"mother of all monsters\" (Typhon is the \"father\"\nbut that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of\nthe sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses\nhave the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis \nof the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna \nfor me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to \nunderstanding the Short Sun epic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly\njust as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's\nmind.\n\nI find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just\nas I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural\nand inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family,\nI think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there\nsomeone in your life who was a \"Seawrack\"? Someone who is still provoking a sense \nof wistful longing?\n\nHere is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from \nChristian Fandom: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape \nvictim. What does her character's reactions signify? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<52934D00.7020907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-11-25T13:13:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly \nhave her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating \ndead sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn.\n\nOn another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the \nnontraditional theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does \nthat lead us anywhere, theologically or otherwise?\n\nAnd speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added \nup all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the \nwomen are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of \ncourse. Same question as above.\n\nSpeaking of Mary part 2: \"The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known \nfor certain, but there are several theories including \"sea of \nbitterness\", \"rebelliousness\", and \"wished for child\". However it was \nmost likely originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from \n/mry/ \"beloved\" or /mr/ \"love\".\"\n\n(Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why \nnot---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote:\nDarrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I\nDarrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role\nof Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW,\nbut there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the\nmany great arcs of the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented.\nOne is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was\ntaken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her\nand mutated her into a sea being.\n\nI think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more\nacceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found\nbetween the lines.\n\nSeawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of\nthe giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to\nthe female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably\nalso in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth.\n\nAbaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same\nthing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its\nfemale crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most\nprominent female on that boat. I think that \"pirate ship\" was The Mother.\n\nIn mythology, Echidna is the \"mother of all monsters\" (Typhon is the \"father\"\nbut that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of\nthe sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses\nhave the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis\nof the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna\nfor me.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to\nunderstanding the Short Sun epic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly\njust as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's\nmind.\n\nI find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just\nas I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural\nand inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family,\nI think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there\nsomeone in your life who was a \"Seawrack\"? Someone who is still provoking a sense\nof wistful longing?\n\nHere is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from\nChristian Fandom:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape\nvictim. What does her character's reactions signify?\nGW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-25T16:37:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<52934D00.7020907@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly\nhave her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead\nsailors and allows her to communicate with Horn.\n\nOn another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional\ntheories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us\nanywhere, theologically or otherwise?\n\nAnd speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added up\nall the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the women\nare named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of course.\nSame question as above.\n\nSpeaking of Mary part 2: \"The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for\ncertain, but there are several theories including \"sea of bitterness\",\n\"rebelliousness\", and \"wished for child\". However it was most likely\noriginally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from *mry* \"beloved\"\nor *mr* \"love\".\"\n\n(Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why\nnot---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!)\n\n\nOn 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote:\n\n Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I\nDarrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role\nof Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW,\nbut there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the\nmany great arcs of the story.\n\n Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented.\nOne is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was\ntaken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her\nand mutated her into a sea being.\n\nI think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more\nacceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found\nbetween the lines.\n\nSeawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of\nthe giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to\nthe female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably\nalso in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth.\n\nAbaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same\nthing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its\nfemale crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most\nprominent female on that boat. I think that \"pirate ship\" was The Mother.\n\nIn mythology, Echidna is the \"mother of all monsters\" (Typhon is the \"father\"\nbut that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of\nthe sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses\nhave the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis\nof the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna\nfor me.\n\n\n I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to\nunderstanding the Short Sun epic.\n\n Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly\njust as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's\nmind.\n\nI find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just\nas I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural\nand inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family,\nI think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there\nsomeone in your life who was a \"Seawrack\"? Someone who is still provoking a sense\nof wistful longing?\n\nHere is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from\nChristian Fandom:\n\n\n DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape\nvictim. What does her character's reactions signify?\n\n GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her.\n\n http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-25T18:39:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She \ncouldn't possibly have her own personality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think other Sun Series beings budded off from a larger whole are meant to have their\nown personalities, including the various incarnations of Tzadkiel, and Idas.\n\nBut surely the closest analog to Seawrack the siren is Juturna, the undine. There\nis a clear mythological connection between sirens and mermaids. Also, there is \nthat moment of overwhelming mutual passion depicted between Severian and Jurturna,\nthough Seawrack's human size makes her a much better candidate for sexual fulfillment.\n\nAnyway, I see The Mother as being related to the gods of the Whorl but it is difficult\nto see the direct connection. My best guess is that Blue is an origin world for Typhon\nand his brood and they took human form for their trip to Urth. Once there, they could\nkeep their human form, as we see with Typhon and Cilinia. And/or part of them could\nhit the ocean and start growing into such megatherian beings as Great Scylla and Abaia,\nlike the Mother creature we see on Blue.\n\nThus, when The Cumaean (who is almost exactly what we'd expect of a human-form of\nEchidna), speaks to Severian of a planet around the star Fomalhaut (fish's mouth), I \nthink it might be her home planet, Blue.\n\nBy choosing the epithet \"Kyrpis\" for Aphrodite, Wolfe may be invoking the sea-foam\nversion of that Greek goddess, in contrast to the traditional hellenic Aphrodite, who is\nthe daughter of Zeus. So maybe that connects Kypris with Seawrack. But otherwise it is\ndifficult to see how Kyrpis in Mainframe on the Whorl is related to Seawrack on Blue.\n\nIn regard to Hyacynth, I dunno. I think it was Andre-Driussi who commented that WOlfe's\ndescription of Hyacinth's breasts make them sound like silicone implants. Surely Wolfe\nknew that mythological Hyacinth was male, making me wonder if perhaps Vironese Hyacinth \nwas a transgender kind of prostitute. This might explain both Silk's joy and despair in \nhis love and passion for her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. And Borski says Father Inire is Moses.\n\nI guess Silk fits the Moses bill in a number of ways. Silk was an insider of the establishment\nwhen he heard the call from God. He was leading his people to the Promised Land, but was not \npermitted to enter himself. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-25T18:51:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he's Spartacus!\n\n//beat//\n\nNo, I'm Spartacus!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSilk isn't Jesus, he's Moses.\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly\nhave her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead\nsailors and allows her to communicate with Horn.\n\nOn another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional\ntheories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us\nanywhere, theologically or otherwise?\n\nAnd speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added\nup all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the\nwomen are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of\ncourse. Same question as above.\n\nSpeaking of Mary part 2: \"The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for\ncertain, but there are several theories including \"sea of bitterness\",\n\"rebelliousness\", and \"wished for child\". However it was most likely\noriginally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from *mry*\"beloved\" or\n*mr* \"love\".\"\n\n(Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why\nnot---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!)\n\n\nOn 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote:\n\n Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I\nDarrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role\nof Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW,\nbut there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the\nmany great arcs of the story.\n\n Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented.\nOne is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was\ntaken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her\nand mutated her into a sea being.\n\nI think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more\nacceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found\nbetween the lines.\n\nSeawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of\nthe giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to\nthe female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably\nalso in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth.\n\nAbaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same\nthing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its\nfemale crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most\nprominent female on that boat. I think that \"pirate ship\" was The Mother.\n\nIn mythology, Echidna is the \"mother of all monsters\" (Typhon is the \"father\"\nbut that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of\nthe sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses\nhave the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis\nof the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna\nfor me.\n\n\n I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to\nunderstanding the Short Sun epic.\n\n Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly\njust as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's\nmind.\n\nI find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just\nas I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural\nand inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family,\nI think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there\nsomeone in your life who was a \"Seawrack\"? Someone who is still provoking a sense\nof wistful longing?\n\nHere is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from\nChristian Fandom:\n\n\n DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape\nvictim. What does her character's reactions signify?\n\n GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her.\n\n http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1385416056.97658.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-11-25T21:47:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Point taken. But did Moses also marry a prostitute?\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Monday, November 25, 2013 1:51 PM, Fred Kiesche wrote:\n \nNo, he's Spartacus!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "//beat//\n\nNo, I'm Spartacus!\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nSilk isn't Jesus, he's Moses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nAny chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly have her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the\n nontraditional theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Does that lead us anywhere, theologically or otherwise?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you\n added up all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a\n dozen---all the women are named Mary. This reminds me of St." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Catherine and her maids, of course. Same question as above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Speaking of Mary part 2: \"The meaning [of the name Mary] is not\n known for certain, but there are several theories including \"sea of\n bitterness\", \"rebelliousness\", and \"wished for child\". However it\n was most likely originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part\n from mry \"beloved\" or mr \"love\".\"\n\n(Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why\n not---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!)\n\n\n\nOn 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote:\n\nDarrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I \nDarrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role \nof Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, \nbut there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the \nmany great arcs of the story. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was \ntaken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her\nand mutated her into a sea being. I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more \nacceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found\nbetween the lines. Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of\nthe giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to\nthe female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably\nalso in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same\nthing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its \nfemale crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most\nprominent female on that boat. I think that \"pirate ship\" was The Mother. In mythology, Echidna is the \"mother of all monsters\" (Typhon is the \"father\"\nbut that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of\nthe sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses\nhave the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis \nof the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna \nfor me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to \nunderstanding the Short Sun epic. \nSeawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly\njust as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's\nmind. I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just\nas I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural\nand inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family,\nI think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there\nsomeone in your life who was a \"Seawrack\"? Someone who is still provoking a sense \nof wistful longing? Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from \nChristian Fandom: \nDJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape \nvictim. What does her character's reactions signify? \nGW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. \nhttp://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-25T21:49:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<1385416056.97658.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He did marry a woman who was not a Jew. To a traditional Jew, that's almost\nthe same thing :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 1:47 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nPoint taken. But did Moses also marry a prostitute?\n\n\n\n\n On Monday, November 25, 2013 1:51 PM, Fred Kiesche <\ngodelescherbach at gmail.com> wrote:\n\nNo, he's Spartacus!\n\n//beat//\n\nNo, I'm Spartacus!\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nSilk isn't Jesus, he's Moses.\n\n\nOn Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly\nhave her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead\nsailors and allows her to communicate with Horn.\n\nOn another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional\ntheories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us\nanywhere, theologically or otherwise?\n\nAnd speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added up\nall the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the women\nare named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of course.\nSame question as above.\n\nSpeaking of Mary part 2: \"The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for\ncertain, but there are several theories including \"sea of bitterness\",\n\"rebelliousness\", and \"wished for child\". However it was most likely\noriginally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from *mry* \"beloved\"\nor *mr* \"love\".\"\n\n(Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why\nnot---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!)\n\n\nOn 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote:\n\n Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I\nDarrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role\nof Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW,\nbut there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the\nmany great arcs of the story.\n\n Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented.\nOne is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was\ntaken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her\nand mutated her into a sea being.\n\nI think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more\nacceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found\nbetween the lines.\n\nSeawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of\nthe giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to\nthe female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably\nalso in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth.\n\nAbaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same\nthing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its\nfemale crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most\nprominent female on that boat. I think that \"pirate ship\" was The Mother.\n\nIn mythology, Echidna is the \"mother of all monsters\" (Typhon is the \"father\"\nbut that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of\nthe sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses\nhave the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis\nof the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna\nfor me.\n\n\n I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to\nunderstanding the Short Sun epic.\n\n Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly\njust as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's\nmind.\n\nI find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just\nas I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural\nand inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family,\nI think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there\nsomeone in your life who was a \"Seawrack\"? Someone who is still provoking a sense\nof wistful longing?\n\nHere is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from\nChristian Fandom:\n\n\n DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape\nvictim. What does her character's reactions signify?\n\n GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her.\n\n http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5293EAD7.1000405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-11-26T00:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/25/2013 1:39 PM, Lee wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She\ncouldn't possibly have her own personality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think other Sun Series beings budded off from a larger whole are meant to have their\nown personalities, including the various incarnations of Tzadkiel, and Idas.\n\nBut surely the closest analog to Seawrack the siren is Juturna, the undine. There\nis a clear mythological connection between sirens and mermaids. Also, there is\nthat moment of overwhelming mutual passion depicted between Severian and Jurturna,\nthough Seawrack's human size makes her a much better candidate for sexual fulfillment.\n\nAnyway, I see The Mother as being related to the gods of the Whorl but it is difficult\nto see the direct connection. My best guess is that Blue is an origin world for Typhon\nand his brood and they took human form for their trip to Urth. Once there, they could\nkeep their human form, as we see with Typhon and Cilinia. And/or part of them could\nhit the ocean and start growing into such megatherian beings as Great Scylla and Abaia,\nlike the Mother creature we see on Blue.\n\nThus, when The Cumaean (who is almost exactly what we'd expect of a human-form of\nEchidna), speaks to Severian of a planet around the star Fomalhaut (fish's mouth), I\nthink it might be her home planet, Blue.\n\nBy choosing the epithet \"Kyrpis\" for Aphrodite, Wolfe may be invoking the sea-foam\nversion of that Greek goddess, in contrast to the traditional hellenic Aphrodite, who is\nthe daughter of Zeus. So maybe that connects Kypris with Seawrack. But otherwise it is\ndifficult to see how Kyrpis in Mainframe on the Whorl is related to Seawrack on Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That all fits, with caveats. But Seawrack behaves as though she is no \nlonger an eater of dead sailors. She reads much like other Wolfe \ncharacters who are \"not themselves,\" though she remembers when she was \nherself. Why would/how could she love a human man?\n\nPositing that she is even a demigodly mermaid does not quite explain \nHorn's longing for her. Why does she haunt Silkhorn---and what part of \nhim does she haunt?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-11-26T21:23:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<5293EAD7.1000405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: That all fits, with caveats. But Seawrack behaves as \nthough she is no longer an eater of dead sailors. She reads much like \nother Wolfe characters who are \"not themselves,\" though she remembers \nwhen she was herself. Why would/how could she love a human man?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, she was assigned to do so by her/The Mother/Goddess. We humans\nthink true love cannot be done on command. But perhaps this isn't so\nfor humaniform imitators. Perhaps, for them, the wish to do so is the \nact itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Positing that she is even a demigodly mermaid does not quite explain \nHorn's longing for her. Why does she haunt Silkhorn---and what part of \nhim does she haunt?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Great question! One I think Marc would have no trouble answering as he\nfeels Silkhorn is fully Silk by the end. I think he is still partially\nHorn but ties in nicely with Andrew's recent question and Dan'l's answer.\n\nI think there is a small amount of Horn still left in SilkHorn for Seawrack \nto attach to. But in regard to Andrew's question about what new love the \nnarrator will find to fulfill the prophecy, I agree with Dan'l. \n\nIt is Seawrack.\n\nFor the Silk part of silkHorn, she is a new love. Given her spiritual\nconnection to Hyacinth and Kypris (discussed in another post), I think\nSilk can find much to love in Seawrack, physical differernces aside. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5295202C.50201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-11-26T22:26:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good point.\n\nI hadn't seen Andrew's question or Dan'l's response. But I eagerly await \nfurther revelations. I wondered if Silk \"finds\" Seawrack through Horn's \nmemories of her. Those memories would not need to be \"super\" natural in \nthemselves, if Silk in some way expands on them.\n\nThat is, memories of memories need not decline in power. They could \nincrease. And \"seeing\" Horn's love for her, seeing her love for him ... \nthat could do it for Silk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 11/26/2013 4:23 PM, Lee wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: That all fits, with caveats. But Seawrack behaves as\nthough she is no longer an eater of dead sailors. She reads much like\nother Wolfe characters who are \"not themselves,\" though she remembers\nwhen she was herself. Why would/how could she love a human man?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, she was assigned to do so by her/The Mother/Goddess. We humans\nthink true love cannot be done on command. But perhaps this isn't so\nfor humaniform imitators. Perhaps, for them, the wish to do so is the\nact itself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Positing that she is even a demigodly mermaid does not quite explain\nHorn's longing for her. Why does she haunt Silkhorn---and what part of\nhim does she haunt?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Great question! One I think Marc would have no trouble answering as he\nfeels Silkhorn is fully Silk by the end. I think he is still partially\nHorn but ties in nicely with Andrew's recent question and Dan'l's answer.\n\nI think there is a small amount of Horn still left in SilkHorn for Seawrack\nto attach to. But in regard to Andrew's question about what new love the\nnarrator will find to fulfill the prophecy, I agree with Dan'l.\n\nIt is Seawrack.\n\nFor the Silk part of silkHorn, she is a new love. Given her spiritual\nconnection to Hyacinth and Kypris (discussed in another post), I think\nSilk can find much to love in Seawrack, physical differernces aside. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }