Seawrack The Urth list — 11 messages, 5 voices, 13 Nov 2013 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6464 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Darrell Burgan — 13 Nov 2013, 07:37 The more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the many great arcs of the story. I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to understanding the Short Sun epic. I'd love to hear people's thoughts about how they see her role. Myself, I'm just stumped. Darrell -- Darrell Burgan http://palancar.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lee — 22 Nov 2013, 16:14 follows, by subject match Darrell Burgan > Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I > Darrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role > of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, > but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the > many great arcs of the story. Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented. One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was taken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her and mutated her into a sea being. I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more acceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found between the lines. Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of the giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to the female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably also in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same thing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its female crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most prominent female on that boat. I think that "pirate ship" was The Mother. In mythology, Echidna is the "mother of all monsters" (Typhon is the "father" but that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of the sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses have the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis of the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna for me. > I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to > understanding the Short Sun epic. Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly just as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's mind. I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just as I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural and inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family, I think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there someone in your life who was a "Seawrack"? Someone who is still provoking a sense of wistful longing? Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from Christian Fandom: > DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape > victim. What does her character's reactions signify? > GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 25 Nov 2013, 13:13 in reply to Lee Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly have her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn. On another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us anywhere, theologically or otherwise? And speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added up all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the women are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of course. Same question as above. Speaking of Mary part 2: "The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for certain, but there are several theories including "sea of bitterness", "rebelliousness", and "wished for child". However it was most likely originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from /mry/ "beloved" or /mr/ "love"." (Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why not---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!) > > On 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote: > > Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I > > Darrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role > > of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, > > but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the > > many great arcs of the story. > Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented. > One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was > taken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her > and mutated her into a sea being. > > I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more > acceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found > between the lines. > > Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of > the giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to > the female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably > also in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. > > Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same > thing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its > female crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most > prominent female on that boat. I think that "pirate ship" was The Mother. > > In mythology, Echidna is the "mother of all monsters" (Typhon is the "father" > but that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of > the sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses > have the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis > of the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna > for me. > > > I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to > > understanding the Short Sun epic. > Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly > just as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's > mind. > > I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just > as I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural > and inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family, > I think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there > someone in your life who was a "Seawrack"? Someone who is still provoking a sense > of wistful longing? > > Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from > Christian Fandom: > > DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape > > victim. What does her character's reactions signify? > > GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. > http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 25 Nov 2013, 16:37 in reply to David Stockhoff Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses. > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly > have her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead > sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn. > > On another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional > theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us > anywhere, theologically or otherwise? > > And speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added up > all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the women > are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of course. > Same question as above. > > Speaking of Mary part 2: "The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for > certain, but there are several theories including "sea of bitterness", > "rebelliousness", and "wished for child". However it was most likely > originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from *mry* "beloved" > or *mr* "love"." > > (Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why > not---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!) > > > On 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote: > > Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I > Darrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role > of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, > but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the > many great arcs of the story. > > Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented. > One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was > taken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her > and mutated her into a sea being. > > I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more > acceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found > between the lines. > > Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of > the giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to > the female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably > also in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. > > Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same > thing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its > female crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most > prominent female on that boat. I think that "pirate ship" was The Mother. > > In mythology, Echidna is the "mother of all monsters" (Typhon is the "father" > but that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of > the sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses > have the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis > of the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna > for me. > > > I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to > understanding the Short Sun epic. > > Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly > just as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's > mind. > > I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just > as I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural > and inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family, > I think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there > someone in your life who was a "Seawrack"? Someone who is still provoking a sense > of wistful longing? > > Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from > Christian Fandom: > > > DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape > victim. What does her character's reactions signify? > > GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. > > http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lee — 25 Nov 2013, 18:39 follows, by subject match Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > David Stockhoff: Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She > couldn't possibly have her own personality. I think other Sun Series beings budded off from a larger whole are meant to have their own personalities, including the various incarnations of Tzadkiel, and Idas. But surely the closest analog to Seawrack the siren is Juturna, the undine. There is a clear mythological connection between sirens and mermaids. Also, there is that moment of overwhelming mutual passion depicted between Severian and Jurturna, though Seawrack's human size makes her a much better candidate for sexual fulfillment. Anyway, I see The Mother as being related to the gods of the Whorl but it is difficult to see the direct connection. My best guess is that Blue is an origin world for Typhon and his brood and they took human form for their trip to Urth. Once there, they could keep their human form, as we see with Typhon and Cilinia. And/or part of them could hit the ocean and start growing into such megatherian beings as Great Scylla and Abaia, like the Mother creature we see on Blue. Thus, when The Cumaean (who is almost exactly what we'd expect of a human-form of Echidna), speaks to Severian of a planet around the star Fomalhaut (fish's mouth), I think it might be her home planet, Blue. By choosing the epithet "Kyrpis" for Aphrodite, Wolfe may be invoking the sea-foam version of that Greek goddess, in contrast to the traditional hellenic Aphrodite, who is the daughter of Zeus. So maybe that connects Kypris with Seawrack. But otherwise it is difficult to see how Kyrpis in Mainframe on the Whorl is related to Seawrack on Blue. In regard to Hyacynth, I dunno. I think it was Andre-Driussi who commented that WOlfe's description of Hyacinth's breasts make them sound like silicone implants. Surely Wolfe knew that mythological Hyacinth was male, making me wonder if perhaps Vironese Hyacinth was a transgender kind of prostitute. This might explain both Silk's joy and despair in his love and passion for her. > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses. Heh. And Borski says Father Inire is Moses. I guess Silk fits the Moses bill in a number of ways. Silk was an insider of the establishment when he heard the call from God. He was leading his people to the Promised Land, but was not permitted to enter himself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Fred Kiesche — 25 Nov 2013, 18:51 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes No, he's Spartacus! //beat// No, I'm Spartacus! > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses. > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > > Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly > > have her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead > > sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn. > > > > On another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional > > theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us > > anywhere, theologically or otherwise? > > > > And speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added > > up all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the > > women are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of > > course. Same question as above. > > > > Speaking of Mary part 2: "The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for > > certain, but there are several theories including "sea of bitterness", > > "rebelliousness", and "wished for child". However it was most likely > > originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from *mry*"beloved" or > > *mr* "love"." > > > > (Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why > > not---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!) > > > > > > On 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote: > > > > Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I > > Darrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role > > of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, > > but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the > > many great arcs of the story. > > > > Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented. > > One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was > > taken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her > > and mutated her into a sea being. > > > > I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more > > acceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found > > between the lines. > > > > Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of > > the giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to > > the female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably > > also in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. > > > > Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same > > thing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its > > female crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most > > prominent female on that boat. I think that "pirate ship" was The Mother. > > > > In mythology, Echidna is the "mother of all monsters" (Typhon is the "father" > > but that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of > > the sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses > > have the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis > > of the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna > > for me. > > > > > > I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to > > understanding the Short Sun epic. > > > > Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly > > just as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's > > mind. > > > > I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just > > as I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural > > and inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family, > > I think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there > > someone in your life who was a "Seawrack"? Someone who is still provoking a sense > > of wistful longing? > > > > Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from > > Christian Fandom: > > > > > > DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape > > victim. What does her character's reactions signify? > > > > GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. > > > > http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAVID STOCKHOFF — 25 Nov 2013, 21:47 in reply to Fred Kiesche Point taken. But did Moses also marry a prostitute? On Monday, November 25, 2013 1:51 PM, Fred Kiesche wrote: No, he's Spartacus! > //beat// > > No, I'm Spartacus! > > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > > Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses. > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > > > > Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly have her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn. > > > On another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the > > > nontraditional theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us anywhere, theologically or otherwise? > > > And speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you > > > added up all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a > > > dozen---all the women are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of course. Same question as above. > > > Speaking of Mary part 2: "The meaning [of the name Mary] is not > > > known for certain, but there are several theories including "sea of > > > bitterness", "rebelliousness", and "wished for child". However it > > > was most likely originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part > > > from mry "beloved" or mr "love"." > > > > > > (Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why > > > not---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!) > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote: > > > > > > Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I > > > Darrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role > > > of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, > > > but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the > > > many great arcs of the story. > > > > Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented. One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was taken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her and mutated her into a sea being. I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more acceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found between the lines. Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of the giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to the female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably also in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same thing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its female crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most prominent female on that boat. I think that "pirate ship" was The Mother. In mythology, Echidna is the "mother of all monsters" (Typhon is the "father" but that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of the sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses have the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis of the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna for me. > > > > I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to > > > > understanding the Short Sun epic. > > > > Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly > > > > just as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's > > > > mind. I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just > > > > as I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural > > > > and inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family, > > > > I think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there > > > > someone in your life who was a "Seawrack"? Someone who is still provoking a sense > > > > of wistful longing? Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from > > > > Christian Fandom: > > > > DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape > > > > victim. What does her character's reactions signify? > > > > GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. > > > > http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 25 Nov 2013, 21:49 in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF He did marry a woman who was not a Jew. To a traditional Jew, that's almost the same thing :) > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 1:47 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: > Point taken. But did Moses also marry a prostitute? > > > > > On Monday, November 25, 2013 1:51 PM, Fred Kiesche < > godelescherbach at gmail.com> wrote: > > No, he's Spartacus! > > //beat// > > No, I'm Spartacus! > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > > Silk isn't Jesus, he's Moses. > > > On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 5:13 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > > Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She couldn't possibly > have her own personality. Something suppresses the memories of eating dead > sailors and allows her to communicate with Horn. > > On another note, Silk's relationship with Hy parallels the nontraditional > theories of Jesus' being married to Mary Magdalene? Does that lead us > anywhere, theologically or otherwise? > > And speaking of Mary, it has been noted by mythicists that if you added up > all the Marys in the life of Jesus you'd have about a dozen---all the women > are named Mary. This reminds me of St. Catherine and her maids, of course. > Same question as above. > > Speaking of Mary part 2: "The meaning [of the name Mary] is not known for > certain, but there are several theories including "sea of bitterness", > "rebelliousness", and "wished for child". However it was most likely > originally an Egyptian name, perhaps derived in part from *mry* "beloved" > or *mr* "love"." > > (Will Dan Brown's next novel assert that Mary was cloned? And why > not---she was perfect enough to be chosen as Jesus' mother!) > > > On 11/22/2013 11:14 AM, Lee wrote: > > Darrell Burgan: The more I think about it, the more confused I > Darrell Burgan: the more I think about it, the more confused I am about the role > of Seawrack in the Short Sun novels. She is clearly an important character in OBW, > but there is little information about her origin, or even how she is involved in the > many great arcs of the story. > > Regarding her origin, I think there are two conflicting stories presented. > One is that she is a human girl who happened to fall into the water and was > taken under the wing (so to speak) of the monstrous Mother who nurtured her > and mutated her into a sea being. > > I think that story is a lie and a deliberate deception to make her more > acceptable and appealing to Horn. I think her true origin can be found > between the lines. > > Seawrack is a female figure who was budded off from the larger mass of > the giant undersea monster/god called The Mother. This is in parallel to > the female buds we see on the back of Great Scylla in RttW. And probably > also in parallel to the production of undines by Abaia on Urth. > > Abaia is conflated with a boat armed with cannon in BotNS and I think the same > thing happens when Horn encounters the all-black pirate ship with its > female crew. Seawrack loses her arm when Horn shoots and hits the most > prominent female on that boat. I think that "pirate ship" was The Mother. > > In mythology, Echidna is the "mother of all monsters" (Typhon is the "father" > but that's a different thread). By some accounts, Echidna is the mother of > the sirens (beautiful but monsters nonetheless). Two of the Whorl goddesses > have the names of sirens, Molpe and Thelxiepeia. On Blue, the Mother's genesis > of the siren Seawrack (not her real name) establishes her connection to Echidna > for me. > > > I can't escape the feeling that understanding her is somehow key to > understanding the Short Sun epic. > > Seawrack is a big part of OBW. In the next two books, she is there, but mostly > just as a presence, a memory, a longing. A song that continues to sing in Horn's > mind. > > I find the explanation of her importance to be autobiographical in nature. Just > as I get the sense that Horn's relationship with Nettle and his children (natural > and inhumi) is meant to reflect something of Wolfe's feelings for his own family, > I think Seawrack serves a similar purpose. What more can be said? Isn't there > someone in your life who was a "Seawrack"? Someone who is still provoking a sense > of wistful longing? > > Here is Gene Wolfe's response when asked about Seawrack by an interviewer from > Christian Fandom: > > > DJB: What's going on with Seawrack in On Blue's Waters? She almost seems like a rape > victim. What does her character's reactions signify? > > GW: If you can't understand Seawrack, I can't make you understand her. > > http://www.christian-fandom.org/oli-gw.html > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 26 Nov 2013, 00:27 in reply to Lee > > On 11/25/2013 1:39 PM, Lee wrote: > > David Stockhoff: Any chance she is a projection of Hyacinth/Kypris? She > > couldn't possibly have her own personality. > I think other Sun Series beings budded off from a larger whole are meant to have their > own personalities, including the various incarnations of Tzadkiel, and Idas. > > But surely the closest analog to Seawrack the siren is Juturna, the undine. There > is a clear mythological connection between sirens and mermaids. Also, there is > that moment of overwhelming mutual passion depicted between Severian and Jurturna, > though Seawrack's human size makes her a much better candidate for sexual fulfillment. > > Anyway, I see The Mother as being related to the gods of the Whorl but it is difficult > to see the direct connection. My best guess is that Blue is an origin world for Typhon > and his brood and they took human form for their trip to Urth. Once there, they could > keep their human form, as we see with Typhon and Cilinia. And/or part of them could > hit the ocean and start growing into such megatherian beings as Great Scylla and Abaia, > like the Mother creature we see on Blue. > > Thus, when The Cumaean (who is almost exactly what we'd expect of a human-form of > Echidna), speaks to Severian of a planet around the star Fomalhaut (fish's mouth), I > think it might be her home planet, Blue. > > By choosing the epithet "Kyrpis" for Aphrodite, Wolfe may be invoking the sea-foam > version of that Greek goddess, in contrast to the traditional hellenic Aphrodite, who is > the daughter of Zeus. So maybe that connects Kypris with Seawrack. But otherwise it is > difficult to see how Kyrpis in Mainframe on the Whorl is related to Seawrack on Blue. That all fits, with caveats. But Seawrack behaves as though she is no longer an eater of dead sailors. She reads much like other Wolfe characters who are "not themselves," though she remembers when she was herself. Why would/how could she love a human man? Positing that she is even a demigodly mermaid does not quite explain Horn's longing for her. Why does she haunt Silkhorn---and what part of him does she haunt? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Lee — 26 Nov 2013, 21:23 follows, by subject match David Stockhoff > David Stockhoff: That all fits, with caveats. But Seawrack behaves as > though she is no longer an eater of dead sailors. She reads much like > other Wolfe characters who are "not themselves," though she remembers > when she was herself. Why would/how could she love a human man? Well, she was assigned to do so by her/The Mother/Goddess. We humans think true love cannot be done on command. But perhaps this isn't so for humaniform imitators. Perhaps, for them, the wish to do so is the act itself. > Positing that she is even a demigodly mermaid does not quite explain > Horn's longing for her. Why does she haunt Silkhorn---and what part of > him does she haunt? Great question! One I think Marc would have no trouble answering as he feels Silkhorn is fully Silk by the end. I think he is still partially Horn but ties in nicely with Andrew's recent question and Dan'l's answer. I think there is a small amount of Horn still left in SilkHorn for Seawrack to attach to. But in regard to Andrew's question about what new love the narrator will find to fulfill the prophecy, I agree with Dan'l. It is Seawrack. For the Silk part of silkHorn, she is a new love. Given her spiritual connection to Hyacinth and Kypris (discussed in another post), I think Silk can find much to love in Seawrack, physical differernces aside. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 26 Nov 2013, 22:26 in reply to Lee Good point. I hadn't seen Andrew's question or Dan'l's response. But I eagerly await further revelations. I wondered if Silk "finds" Seawrack through Horn's memories of her. Those memories would not need to be "super" natural in themselves, if Silk in some way expands on them. That is, memories of memories need not decline in power. They could increase. And "seeing" Horn's love for her, seeing her love for him ... that could do it for Silk. > > On 11/26/2013 4:23 PM, Lee wrote: > > David Stockhoff: That all fits, with caveats. But Seawrack behaves as > > though she is no longer an eater of dead sailors. She reads much like > > other Wolfe characters who are "not themselves," though she remembers > > when she was herself. Why would/how could she love a human man? > Well, she was assigned to do so by her/The Mother/Goddess. We humans > think true love cannot be done on command. But perhaps this isn't so > for humaniform imitators. Perhaps, for them, the wish to do so is the > act itself. > > Positing that she is even a demigodly mermaid does not quite explain > > Horn's longing for her. Why does she haunt Silkhorn---and what part of > > him does she haunt? > Great question! One I think Marc would have no trouble answering as he > feels Silkhorn is fully Silk by the end. I think he is still partially > Horn but ties in nicely with Andrew's recent question and Dan'l's answer. > > I think there is a small amount of Horn still left in SilkHorn for Seawrack > to attach to. But in regard to Andrew's question about what new love the > narrator will find to fulfill the prophecy, I agree with Dan'l. > > It is Seawrack. > > For the Silk part of silkHorn, she is a new love. Given her spiritual > connection to Hyacinth and Kypris (discussed in another post), I think > Silk can find much to love in Seawrack, physical differernces aside. > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------