{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6477", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6477, "subject": "Five Severians", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2013-12-13T00:46:15+00:00", "last": "2013-12-19T16:03:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-13T00:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the so-called \"five Severians\" theory set down in detail anywhere? If\nso, I'd be grateful if someone could point me toward the right book or web\naddress. Thanks. - Mike" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Larry Miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-14T03:08:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If your refering to Micheal Andre Druissis theory of the Time Slivers of\nSeverian, he gives a pretty good overview of 8 different Severians in\nLexicon Urthus under the Severian entry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 13, 2013 9:59 PM, \"Michael Thayer\" \nwrote:\n\nIs the so-called \"five Severians\" theory set down in detail anywhere? If\nso, I'd be grateful if someone could point me toward the right book or web\naddress. Thanks. - Mike\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-15T02:17:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Larry -- Druissi's eight Severians theory is a bit opaque. It\nseems that Severians Four, Seven, and Eight are the same Severian, and\nSeverians Three and Five are not Severian at all (I'm not sure why the Claw\n(\"Severian Three\") or the White Fountain (\"Severian Five\") are considered\nversions of Severian). The theory is especially opaque when it comes to\nthe \"Mausoleum Builder\" (\"Severian Eight\"). Druissi says that the narrator\nof Urth (\"Severian Seven: the Sleeper God of Ushas\") maintains \"the ability\nto walk the Corridors of Time and will somehow or another end up becoming\nthe mausoleum builder.\" He then goes on to say that the mausoleum builder\n\"killed Dorcas when she died the first time,\" which I confess I don't\nfollow. In the \"Mausoleum\" and \"Mausoleum Builder\" sections of Lexicon\nUrthus, Druissi acknowledges but does not explain the meaning of the five\ncoffins, and why two are open and three closed. It is a theory of the five\ncoffins, perhaps, that I am really after.\n\nFrom: Larry Miller \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Five Severians\nMessage-ID:\n \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"\n\nIf your refering to Micheal Andre Druissis theory of the Time Slivers of\nSeverian, he gives a pretty good overview of 8 different Severians in\nLexicon Urthus under the Severian entry." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 13, 2013 9:59 PM, \"Michael Thayer\" \nwrote:\n\nIs the so-called \"five Severians\" theory set down in detail anywhere? If\nso, I'd be grateful if someone could point me toward the right book or web\naddress. Thanks. - Mike" } ] }, { "message_id": "<62342d108930858891371e09ea09069a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-12-15T10:43:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, December 14, 2013 20:17, Michael Thayer wrote:\nThanks, Larry -- Druissi's eight Severians theory is a bit opaque. It\nseems that Severians Four, Seven, and Eight are the same Severian, and\nSeverians Three and Five are not Severian at all (I'm not sure why the\nClaw\n(\"Severian Three\") or the White Fountain (\"Severian Five\") are considered\nversions of Severian)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are intimately connected channels for his powers, and at times he may\nperceive them as separate selves. Particularly with the White Fountain, he\nhas a sense of seeing himself from far away. They are also tagged with his\ngenetic material, The Claw by blood and The White Fountain by semen from\nhis tryst with Alpheta." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-16T15:48:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": "<62342d108930858891371e09ea09069a.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Thayer: Druissi's eight Severians theory is a bit opaque." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Driussi is usually fairly circumspect in injecting his own\ninterpretations onto Wolfe. But now and then, as in this case, he \ndemonstrates an ability to go off on his own tangent with almost Borskian\nintrepidity.\n\nPersonally, I find the five coffins in the mausoleum to be impossible to\nplausibly understand at just a narrative level. I find it to be most\nessentially autobiographical in the manner of a puzzle in its referent, \nThe Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n\nI think most here are aware that Wolfe once (remarkably) admitted that the \nsolution to the puzzle of figuring out Maitre's name in Fifth Head of Cerberus \nis: \"Gene Wolfe\".\n\nI don't find this to be mere literary cleverness and sleight of hand. I think\nthis is Wolfe's way of saying that much of the mystery of his work can find\nits solution in autobiography.\n\nI find the title \"Fifth Head of Cerberus\" itself to be a similar puzzle (Aunt\nJeannine suggests that it is). What are the \"five\" heads? We have Mr. Million, \nhis first clone, Maitre and Number Five. So only four in the sequence. Who is the \nfifth? \n\nI think the answer is the person who came before Mr. Million and who created him\nas a character. I think the fifth head is Gene Wolfe (the author) and only by \ncatching that can you understand the title of the book and thus a main intended \nself-referential auctorial theme of the book.\n\nSo for me, the five coffins in the mausoleum are a direct reference to the \nearlier book title and a way of saying, \"once again I, Gene Wolfe as author, am\nan integral part of this story and my character Severian is a clone/extension\nof me in some ways\". Naming Severian's father \"Ouen\" (Welsh form of Eugene) may \nalso make a similar point.\n\nI find Driussi's essay on the similarities between Wolfe's and Severian's\nlives to also be relevant to this general idea. \n\nExplaining why two of the coffins are open is a bit tough, but my best guess\nis that Wolfe is saying he has \"cloned\" himself into two of his previous \nnovels, those being Fifth Head of Cerberus and Peace. \n\nInterestingly, Daniel Otto Jack Peterson has recently posted a link to a review of \nPeace which mentions its autobiographical mysteries and the self-awareness of the \nauthor as he creates the story and its characters.\n\nFWIW, I first posted these ideas on this board a number of years ago, so perhaps \nthere is a chance this is what you were looking for Michael? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B1A350.1060307@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-18T13:29:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2013 10:48 AM, Lee wrote:\nNaming Severian's father \"Ouen\" (Welsh form of Eugene) may\nalso make a similar point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did not know that! Sounds almost like \"good Gene.\" Or, maybe, \"good \n/gene/.\"\n\nI want to repost here Mantis' workup of parallels between BNS and \nWolfe's life (perhaps you meant to include it, or you sent it as an \nattachment?). For the most part it shows that there is more than one way \nto plot a story (and Wolfe uses all of them at once!), but it does give \nus a pattern that, while not \"explaining\" much, does provide a little \nmeaning behind the names (even if just an origin).\n\nThe Citadel of the Autarch = Texas A & M.\nValeria = Rosemary Dietsch.\nAtrium of Time = the Dietsches' (front/back)yard in Peoria, Illinois \nA.D. 1935.\nJolenta = Marilyn Monroe (Wolfe saw her when she visited the troops).\nTriskele = Snooper the dog (one paw crushed by tread).\nPelerines = Red Cross girls.\nPyrotechnic polearms = B.A.R. and the Chinese Forward Observers that \nWolfe saw burned to death by flamethrowers on Hill Chinese 200.\nAgia's ploy at Mine = prostitutes working out of caves.\nErebus = USSR (aiding/directing North Korea).\nAbaia = Communist China (aiding/directing North Korea).\nAscia = North Korea.\nNessus = Seoul (\"there was a time when they [Ascians] laid waste to \nNessus\" [IV, ch. 24]; i.e., at beginning of Korean War, Seoul was overrun\nVodalus = Howard Hughes-like anarcho-aristocrat.\nBaldanders = the Atomic Bomb (Little Boy/Fat Man) [especially check out \nthat mushroom cloud formation when flying saucer is parked over his tower].\nTyphon = Gen. MacArthur, \"American Caesar\" as well as \"Arthur awakened \nfrom the mountain where he sleeps.\"\nKim Lee Soong = K-92, one of Wolfe's Korean \"katusa\" pals.\nJonas = Algis Budrys and/or Hawkeye of M.A.S.H. fame.\nI, CLAUDIUS = one of the books Wolfe re-read at the front.\nThe 18th Bacele of Irregular Contarii = the 1st Battallion of the 17th \n[attention 17 watchers!] Infantry (Wolfe's unit).\nOrinthyia = Porkchop Hill.\nThe Samru = troopship Marine Phoenix, which brought Wolfe back to the US \n(May 18, 1954).\nMarriage to Valeria/ascent to the throne = Marriage to Rosemary (A.D. \n1956) and conversion to Roman Catholocism." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2013-12-19T16:03:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians", "in_reply_to": "<52B1A350.1060307@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never much cared for this kind of stuff, Jolenta as Marilyn Monroe and whatnot. Of course autobiography is in there in some way shape or form , but this kind of mapping always rubbed me as interpretationally barren. \n\nPatterns and repetitions and structurally created symbols are way more important for filling in elided closure. Personal problems have delayed my Peace write up but I have it framed in my head now - the green fairy book and metamorphosis, mostly into birds - mention of the children of the sidhe that become the flock, olivia as bird boned, the talk of the simurgh which roosts in the tree of life, the story of the blue bird who is king charming from the green book and professor peacock ... The banshee as derived from the word sidhe ... All those fairy stories with their princesses and the princess Indian names the women take when they write on the skin ... Sun sun and Ming sno, fire and ice, den picks up sun-sun while Olivia takes sno. Symbolic associations like that that are only pseudo logical but becoming meaningful as a pattern. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Dec 18, 2013, at 6:29 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 12/16/2013 10:48 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Naming Severian's father \"Ouen\" (Welsh form of Eugene) may \nalso make a similar point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I did not know that! Sounds almost like \"good Gene.\" Or, maybe, \"good gene.\"\n\nI want to repost here Mantis' workup of parallels between BNS and Wolfe's life (perhaps you meant to include it, or you sent it as an attachment?). For the most part it shows that there is more than one way to plot a story (and Wolfe uses all of them at once!), but it does give us a pattern that, while not \"explaining\" much, does provide a little meaning behind the names (even if just an origin).\n\nThe Citadel of the Autarch = Texas A & M.\nValeria = Rosemary Dietsch.\nAtrium of Time = the Dietsches' (front/back)yard in Peoria, Illinois A.D. 1935.\nJolenta = Marilyn Monroe (Wolfe saw her when she visited the troops).\nTriskele = Snooper the dog (one paw crushed by tread).\nPelerines = Red Cross girls.\nPyrotechnic polearms = B.A.R. and the Chinese Forward Observers that Wolfe saw burned to death by flamethrowers on Hill Chinese 200.\nAgia's ploy at Mine = prostitutes working out of caves.\nErebus = USSR (aiding/directing North Korea).\nAbaia = Communist China (aiding/directing North Korea).\nAscia = North Korea.\nNessus = Seoul (\"there was a time when they [Ascians] laid waste to Nessus\" [IV, ch. 24]; i.e., at beginning of Korean War, Seoul was overrun\nVodalus = Howard Hughes-like anarcho-aristocrat.\nBaldanders = the Atomic Bomb (Little Boy/Fat Man) [especially check out that mushroom cloud formation when flying saucer is parked over his tower].\nTyphon = Gen. MacArthur, \"American Caesar\" as well as \"Arthur awakened from the mountain where he sleeps.\"\nKim Lee Soong = K-92, one of Wolfe's Korean \"katusa\" pals.\nJonas = Algis Budrys and/or Hawkeye of M.A.S.H. fame.\nI, CLAUDIUS = one of the books Wolfe re-read at the front.\nThe 18th Bacele of Irregular Contarii = the 1st Battallion of the 17th [attention 17 watchers!] Infantry (Wolfe's unit).\nOrinthyia = Porkchop Hill.\nThe Samru = troopship Marine Phoenix, which brought Wolfe back to the US (May 18, 1954).\nMarriage to Valeria/ascent to the throne = Marriage to Rosemary (A.D. 1956) and conversion to Roman Catholocism.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }