{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6482", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6482, "subject": "Editor in China requesting help with translation of certain\n sentences in BotNS", "messages": 7, "voices": 6, "first": "2013-12-16T19:58:08+00:00", "last": "2013-12-17T05:48:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-16T19:58:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of certain\n sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Got this alert from the Goodreads Gene Wolfe group:\n\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1614149-help-some-details-in-the-shadow?utm_medium=email&utm_source=comment_instant#comment_88705259\n\n\"I am a SF editor & Wolfe fan in China, and we are trying to publish The\nBook of New Sun in Chinese. I've done a lot of work in reading and\ntranslation , yet there are still some sentences I can't understand. Hope I\ncan get some help here.\n\nTHE HOUSE AZURE\nWhile I was undressing I said, “Nevertheless, we all seek to discover what\nis real. Why is it” Perhaps we are drawn to the theocenter. That’s what the\nhierophants say,that only that is true.\n\nwhat does \"theocenter\" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary nor can I\ngoogle it. and what does the whole sentence mean?\n--------------------------------------------\nTHE LAST YEAR\nI carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like them, and I\nshould be bluer of cheek than the run of common men, and the next day\nbegged my pardon for it, saying I was that already.\n\nwhat does \"bluer of cheek\"and \" run of common men\" mean here?\n-----------------------------------------\nDORCAS\n“Your pardon, sieur,” he said. ?But I can’t come no nearer. Wet she may be,\nbut she gets too dry for me, or you couldn’t walk upon it.\n\nDoes \"she\" refer to the boat or Cas' body? what does the sentence mean?\n\n------------------------------------------\nTHE PLAY\nconfirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit\natop the patroness of another\n\nIf the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does \"elector\"and\n\"patroness\"mean?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-16T20:54:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of\n certain sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, \"bluer of cheek\" is a variation on the term \"blue-blood\", of course a\nreference to nobility ... you could see the surface veins of those who,\nbecause of their stature in society, had very pale skin (they didn't have\nto work outside at physical labor, thus acquiring a tan).\n\nIn Solitaire, a black (or red) Jack is placed \"on top\" of a Queen of the\nopposite color (and a different suit, necessarily) ... so perhaps the\n\"elector\" is the Jack and the \"patroness\" is the Queen?\n\n\"Theocenter\" might simply mean \"godhead\", or a reference to the oneness and\nsimplicity thereof, as the root of all existence, in a Judeo-Christian\nsense. But don't quote me.\n\nNot sure about the other one, I'll have to page through my copy at home to\nget the full context." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:\nGot this alert from the Goodreads Gene Wolfe group:\n\n\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1614149-help-some-details-in-the-shadow?utm_medium=email&utm_source=comment_instant#comment_88705259\n\n\"I am a SF editor & Wolfe fan in China, and we are trying to publish The\nBook of New Sun in Chinese. I've done a lot of work in reading and\ntranslation , yet there are still some sentences I can't understand. Hope I\ncan get some help here.\n\nTHE HOUSE AZURE\nWhile I was undressing I said, “Nevertheless, we all seek to discover what\nis real. Why is it” Perhaps we are drawn to the theocenter. That’s what the\nhierophants say,that only that is true.\n\nwhat does \"theocenter\" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary nor can\nI google it. and what does the whole sentence mean?\n--------------------------------------------\nTHE LAST YEAR\nI carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like them, and I\nshould be bluer of cheek than the run of common men, and the next day\nbegged my pardon for it, saying I was that already.\n\nwhat does \"bluer of cheek\"and \" run of common men\" mean here?\n-----------------------------------------\nDORCAS\n“Your pardon, sieur,” he said. “But I can’t come no nearer. Wet she may\nbe, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn’t walk upon it.\n\nDoes \"she\" refer to the boat or Cas' body” what does the sentence mean?\n\n------------------------------------------\nTHE PLAY\nconfirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit\natop the patroness of another\n\nIf the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does \"elector\"and\n\"patroness\"mean?\"\n\n--\nDaniel Otto Jack Petersen\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-16T22:43:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of\n certain sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the sentence it is used in, I thought \"bluer in cheek\" was pretty\nmuch saying \"heavier beard\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin\nwrote:\nWell, \"bluer of cheek\" is a variation on the term \"blue-blood\", of course\na reference to nobility ... you could see the surface veins of those who,\nbecause of their stature in society, had very pale skin (they didn't have\nto work outside at physical labor, thus acquiring a tan).\n\nIn Solitaire, a black (or red) Jack is placed \"on top\" of a Queen of the\nopposite color (and a different suit, necessarily) ... so perhaps the\n\"elector\" is the Jack and the \"patroness\" is the Queen?\n\n\"Theocenter\" might simply mean \"godhead\", or a reference to the oneness\nand simplicity thereof, as the root of all existence, in a Judeo-Christian\nsense. But don't quote me.\n\nNot sure about the other one, I'll have to page through my copy at home to\nget the full context.\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen <\ndanielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Got this alert from the Goodreads Gene Wolfe group:\n\n\nhttps://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1614149-help-some-details-in-the-shadow?utm_medium=email&utm_source=comment_instant#comment_88705259\n\n\"I am a SF editor & Wolfe fan in China, and we are trying to publish The\nBook of New Sun in Chinese. I've done a lot of work in reading and\ntranslation , yet there are still some sentences I can't understand. Hope I\ncan get some help here.\n\nTHE HOUSE AZURE\nWhile I was undressing I said, “Nevertheless, we all seek to discover\nwhat is real. Why is it” Perhaps we are drawn to the theocenter. That’s\nwhat the hierophants say,that only that is true.\n\nwhat does \"theocenter\" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary nor can\nI google it. and what does the whole sentence mean?\n--------------------------------------------\nTHE LAST YEAR\nI carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like them, and I\nshould be bluer of cheek than the run of common men, and the next day\nbegged my pardon for it, saying I was that already.\n\nwhat does \"bluer of cheek\"and \" run of common men\" mean here?\n-----------------------------------------\nDORCAS\n“Your pardon, sieur,” he said. “But I can’t come no nearer. Wet she may\nbe, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn’t walk upon it.\n\nDoes \"she\" refer to the boat or Cas' body” what does the sentence mean?\n\n------------------------------------------\nTHE PLAY\nconfirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit\natop the patroness of another\n\nIf the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does \"elector\"and\n\"patroness\"mean?\"\n\n--\nDaniel Otto Jack Petersen\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52AF8E48.7070708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-16T23:35:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of\n certain sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blue cheeks are cheeks with one-day stubble (if you have black hair and \npale skin).\n\nOtherwise, I agree. The Solitaire question is especially interesting, \nsince Wolfe could not possibly have slipped those in without working out \na system. An elector is an HRE prince \n(archbishop/count/duke/margrave/king), thus probably taking the place of \nthe jack.\n\nI can only assume, given the milieu, that the king is an autarch, who of \ncourse has no queen so the queen becomes a patroness. This sounds like \nan ecclesiastical rank but it could mean \"patrona\" (city patroness) or \nfemale \"patron saint.\"\n\nEither way, one must wonder who it is that the elector elects. Could the \nautarchy originally have been at least theoretically elective?\n\n(There seem to be very few noble titles in the Commonwealth; the highest \ntitle I can recall is \"waldgrave.\" The autarch can't allow any ranks \nnear his own.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2013 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:\nWell, \"bluer of cheek\" is a variation on the term \"blue-blood\", of \ncourse a reference to nobility ... you could see the surface veins of \nthose who, because of their stature in society, had very pale skin \n(they didn't have to work outside at physical labor, thus acquiring a \ntan).\n\nIn Solitaire, a black (or red) Jack is placed \"on top\" of a Queen of \nthe opposite color (and a different suit, necessarily) ... so perhaps \nthe \"elector\" is the Jack and the \"patroness\" is the Queen?\n\n\"Theocenter\" might simply mean \"godhead\", or a reference to the \noneness and simplicity thereof, as the root of all existence, in a \nJudeo-Christian sense. But don't quote me.\n\nNot sure about the other one, I'll have to page through my copy at \nhome to get the full context.\n\n\nOn Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen \n> wrote:\n\n Got this alert from the Goodreads Gene Wolfe group:\n\n https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1614149-help-some-details-in-the-shadow?utm_medium=email&utm_source=comment_instant#comment_88705259\n\n\n \"I am a SF editor & Wolfe fan in China, and we are trying to\n publish The Book of New Sun in Chinese. I've done a lot of work in\n reading and translation , yet there are still some sentences I\n can't understand. Hope I can get some help here.\n\n THE HOUSE AZURE\n While I was undressing I said, \"Nevertheless, we all seek to\n discover what is real. Why is it? Perhaps we are drawn to the\n theocenter. That's what the hierophants say,that only that is true.\"\n\n what does \"theocenter\" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary\n nor can I google it. and what does the whole sentence mean?\n --------------------------------------------\n THE LAST YEAR\n I carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like\n them, and I should be bluer of cheek than the run of common men,\n and the next day begged my pardon for it, saying I was that already.\n\n what does \"bluer of cheek\"and \" run of common men\" mean here?\n -----------------------------------------\n DORCAS\n \"Your pardon, sieur,\" he said. \"But I can't come no nearer. Wet\n she may be, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn't walk upon\n it.\n\n Does \"she\" refer to the boat or Cas' body? what does the sentence\n mean?\n\n ------------------------------------------\n THE PLAY\n confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one\n suit atop the patroness of another\n\n If the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does\n \"elector\"and \"patroness\"mean?\"\n\n -- \n Daniel Otto Jack Petersen\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2013-12-17T00:57:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of\n certain sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen\n wrote:\nTHE PLAY\nconfirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop\nthe patroness of another\n\nIf the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does \"elector\"and\n\"patroness\"mean?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So to put this in further context:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Babies know it,\" Dorcas said. \"They know it before they learn to speak, but by the time they're old enough to talk, they have forgotten most of it. At least, someone told me that once.\"\n\n\"That's what I mean, something like that. The brown book is a collection of the myths of the past, and it has a section listing all the keys of the universe - all the things people have said were The Secret after they had talked to mystagogues on far worlds or studied the popul vuh of the magicians, or fasted in the trunks of holy trees. Thecla and I used to read them and talk about them, and one of them was that everything, whatever happens, has three meanings. The first is its practical meaning, what the book calls, 'the thing the plowman sees.' The cow has taken a mouthful of grass, and it is real grass, and a real cow - that meaning is as important and as true as either of the others. The second is the reflection of the world about it. Every object is in contact with all others, and thus the wise can learn of the others by observing the first. That might be called the soothsayers' meaning, because it is the one such people use when they prophesy a fortunate meeting from the tracks of serpents or confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop the patroness of another.\"\n\n\"And the third meaning?\" Dorcas asked.\n\n\"The third is the transsubstantial meaning. Since all objects have their ultimate Origin in the Pancreator, and all were set in motion by him, so all must express his will - which is the higher reality.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now, when I hear 'soothsayers' in close proximity to 'one suit', my\ninstant expectation is that we are talking about Tarot and\nfortunetelling. Foretelling a love affair is exactly the sort of thing\nTarot might be used for. And this would be far from the first\nreference to Tarot by Wolfe: I'm sure we haven't forgotten _Sorceror's\nHouse_ or \"The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps\", and a search on\nurth.net will turn up still others.\n\nThe suits or minor arcana of the Tarot include the knave, the knight,\nthe queen, and the king. 'elector' sounds like the German kings, and\n'patronness' is a reasonable description of a queen." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52AFB4B2.4070702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-17T02:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of\n certain sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That works out a lot better than solitaire=elector=jack.\n\nOne of the HR electors was an actual king, so there can be several \nkings/princes; there can be only one autarch, and he is completely \nseparate from the nobility. That means the elector can easily be a king.\n\nKnights can woo queens, but pages, never." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/16/2013 7:57 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen\n wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "THE PLAY\nconfirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop\nthe patroness of another\n\nIf the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does \"elector\"and\n\"patroness\"mean?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now, when I hear 'soothsayers' in close proximity to 'one suit', my \ninstant expectation is that we are talking about Tarot and \nfortunetelling. Foretelling a love affair is exactly the sort of thing \nTarot might be used for. And this would be far from the first \nreference to Tarot by Wolfe: I'm sure we haven't forgotten _Sorceror's \nHouse_ or \"The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps\", and a search on \nurth.net will turn up still others. The suits or minor arcana of the \nTarot include the knave, the knight, the queen, and the king. \n'elector' sounds like the German kings, and 'patronness' is a \nreasonable description of a queen. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<52AFE5C2.3060503@btconnect.com>", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "pinlighter at btconnect.com" }, "date": "2013-12-17T05:48:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of\n certain sentences in BotNS", "in_reply_to": "<52AF8E48.7070708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Bluer of cheek\"= more and darker stubble on theface, if shaven. A \nthick black beard if not shaven.\n\n\nAnd in this bit" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " DORCAS\n \"Your pardon, sieur,\" he said. \"But I can't come no nearer. Wet\n she may be, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn't walk\n upon it.\n\n Does \"she\" refer to the boat or Cas' body? what does the sentence\n mean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"She\" refers to the condition of the ground, or rasther the swampy mat \nof plants, on which Severian is walking. This has no sharply defined \nedge, and\nso the boat, which is in a relatively weed-free bit of water, can't get \nclose to the nearly solid bits where Severian is.\n\n\nhartshorn (Still very happily lurking, and a merrry Xmas to you all)" } ] } ] }