Subject: (urth) Editor in China requesting help with translation of certain sentences in BotNS

From: Daniel Otto Jack Petersen <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 19:58:08 +0000

Got this alert from the Goodreads Gene Wolfe group:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1614149-help-some-details-in-the-shadow?utm_medium=email&utm_source=comment_instant#comment_88705259

"I am a SF editor & Wolfe fan in China, and we are trying to publish The
Book of New Sun in Chinese. I've done a lot of work in reading and
translation , yet there are still some sentences I can't understand. Hope I
can get some help here.

THE HOUSE AZURE
While I was undressing I said, “Nevertheless, we all seek to discover what
is real. Why is it” Perhaps we are drawn to the theocenter. That’s what the
hierophants say,that only that is true.

what does "theocenter" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary nor can I
google it. and what does the whole sentence mean?
--------------------------------------------
THE LAST YEAR
I carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like them, and I
should be bluer of cheek than the run of common men, and the next day
begged my pardon for it, saying I was that already.

what does "bluer of cheek"and " run of common men" mean here?
-----------------------------------------
DORCAS
“Your pardon, sieur,” he said. ?But I can’t come no nearer. Wet she may be,
but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn’t walk upon it.

Does "she" refer to the boat or Cas' body? what does the sentence mean?

------------------------------------------
THE PLAY
confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit
atop the patroness of another

If the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does "elector"and
"patroness"mean?"

-- 
Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
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From: Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 20:54:56 +0000

Well, "bluer of cheek" is a variation on the term "blue-blood", of course a
reference to nobility ... you could see the surface veins of those who,
because of their stature in society, had very pale skin (they didn't have
to work outside at physical labor, thus acquiring a tan).

In Solitaire, a black (or red) Jack is placed "on top" of a Queen of the
opposite color (and a different suit, necessarily) ... so perhaps the
"elector" is the Jack and the "patroness" is the Queen?

"Theocenter" might simply mean "godhead", or a reference to the oneness and
simplicity thereof, as the root of all existence, in a Judeo-Christian
sense.  But don't quote me.

Not sure about the other one, I'll have to page through my copy at home to
get the full context.

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen <
danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:

> what does "theocenter" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary nor can
> I google it. and what does the whole sentence mean?
> “Your pardon, sieur,” he said. “But I can’t come no nearer. Wet she may
> be, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn’t walk upon it.
>
> Does "she" refer to the boat or Cas' body” what does the sentence mean?
>
> _______________________________________________
> Urth Mailing List
> To post, write urth at urth.net
> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
>
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From: Fred Kiesche <godelescherbach at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 22:43:47 +0000

Given the sentence it is used in, I thought "bluer in cheek" was pretty
much saying "heavier beard".

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin
<kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>wrote:

> Well, "bluer of cheek" is a variation on the term "blue-blood", of course
> a reference to nobility ... you could see the surface veins of those who,
> "Theocenter" might simply mean "godhead", or a reference to the oneness
> and simplicity thereof, as the root of all existence, in a Judeo-Christian
>> While I was undressing I said, “Nevertheless, we all seek to discover
>> what is real. Why is it” Perhaps we are drawn to the theocenter. That’s
>> what the hierophants say,that only that is true.
>>

-- 
F.P. Kiesche III

Husband, Father, Good Cook. Reader. Keeper of abandoned dogs. Catholic
Liberal Conservative Militarist. Does not fit into a neat box or category.
"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble,
scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with
Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at Bernal
Alpha. On Twitter as @FredKiesche
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 23:35:36 +0000

Blue cheeks are cheeks with one-day stubble (if you have black hair and 
pale skin).

Otherwise, I agree. The Solitaire question is especially interesting, 
since Wolfe could not possibly have slipped those in without working out 
a system. An elector is an HRE prince 
(archbishop/count/duke/margrave/king), thus probably taking the place of 
the jack.

I can only assume, given the milieu, that the king is an autarch, who of 
course has no queen so the queen becomes a patroness. This sounds like 
an ecclesiastical rank but it could mean "patrona" (city patroness) or 
female "patron saint."

Either way, one must wonder who it is that the elector elects. Could the 
autarchy originally have been at least theoretically elective?

(There seem to be very few noble titles in the Commonwealth; the highest 
title I can recall is "waldgrave." The autarch can't allow any ranks 
near his own.)

On 12/16/2013 3:54 PM, Antonin Scriabin wrote:
> Well, "bluer of cheek" is a variation on the term "blue-blood", of 
> course a reference to nobility ... you could see the surface veins of 
> those who, because of their stature in society, had very pale skin 
> (they didn't have to work outside at physical labor, thus acquiring a 
> tan).
>
> In Solitaire, a black (or red) Jack is placed "on top" of a Queen of 
> the opposite color (and a different suit, necessarily) ... so perhaps 
> the "elector" is the Jack and the "patroness" is the Queen?
>
> "Theocenter" might simply mean "godhead", or a reference to the 
> oneness and simplicity thereof, as the root of all existence, in a 
> Judeo-Christian sense.  But don't quote me.
>
> Not sure about the other one, I'll have to page through my copy at 
> home to get the full context.
>
>
> On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen 
> <danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com 
> <mailto:danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     "I am a SF editor & Wolfe fan in China, and we are trying to
>     publish The Book of New Sun in Chinese. I've done a lot of work in
>     reading and translation , yet there are still some sentences I
>     can't understand. Hope I can get some help here.
>
>     THE HOUSE AZURE
>     While I was undressing I said, "Nevertheless, we all seek to
>     discover what is real. Why is it? Perhaps we are drawn to the
>     theocenter. That's what the hierophants say,that only that is true."
>
>     what does "theocenter" mean? I can't find this word in dictionary
>     nor can I google it. and what does the whole sentence mean?
>     I carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like
>     them, and I should be bluer of cheek than the run of common men,
>     and the next day begged my pardon for it, saying I was that already.
>
>     "Your pardon, sieur," he said. "But I can't come no nearer. Wet
>     she may be, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn't walk upon
>     it.
>
>     confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one
>     suit atop the patroness of another
>
>     If the word suit refer to the some card game, then what does
>     "elector"and "patroness"mean?"
>
>     -- 
>     To post, write urth at urth.net <mailto:urth at urth.net>

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From: Gwern Branwen <gwern at gwern.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 00:57:03 +0000

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 2:58 PM, Daniel Otto Jack Petersen
<danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com> wrote:
> THE PLAY
> confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop
> the patroness of another
>

So to put this in further context:

> "Babies know it," Dorcas said. "They know it before they learn to speak, but by the time they're old enough to talk, they have forgotten most of it. At least, someone told me that once."
>
> "That's what I mean, something like that. The brown book is a collection of the myths of the past, and it has a section listing all the keys of the universe - all the things people have said were The Secret after they had talked to mystagogues on far worlds or studied the popul vuh of the magicians, or fasted in the trunks of holy trees. Thecla and I used to read them and talk about them, and one of them was that everything, whatever happens, has three meanings. The first is its practical meaning, what the book calls, 'the thing the plowman sees.' The cow has taken a mouthful of grass, and it is real grass, and a real cow - that meaning is as important and as true as either of the others. The second is the reflection of the world about it. Every object is in contact with all others, and thus the wise can learn of the others by observing the first. That might be called the soothsayers' meaning, because it is the one such people use when they prophesy a fortunate meeting from the tracks of serpents or confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop the patroness of another."
>
> "And the third meaning?" Dorcas asked.
>
> "The third is the transsubstantial meaning. Since all objects have their ultimate Origin in the Pancreator, and all were set in motion by him, so all must express his will - which is the higher reality."

Now, when I hear 'soothsayers' in close proximity to 'one suit', my
instant expectation is that we are talking about Tarot and
fortunetelling. Foretelling a love affair is exactly the sort of thing
Tarot might be used for. And this would be far from the first
reference to Tarot by Wolfe: I'm sure we haven't forgotten _Sorceror's
House_ or "The Computer Iterates the Greater Trumps", and a search on
urth.net will turn up still others.

The suits or minor arcana of the Tarot include the knave, the knight,
the queen, and the king. 'elector' sounds like the German kings, and
'patronness' is a reasonable description of a queen.

-- 
gwern
http://www.gwern.net

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 02:19:30 +0000

That works out a lot better than solitaire=elector=jack.

One of the HR electors was an actual king, so there can be several 
kings/princes; there can be only one autarch, and he is completely 
separate from the nobility. That means the elector can easily be a king.

Knights can woo queens, but pages, never.

On 12/16/2013 7:57 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:
> urth.net will turn up still others. The suits or minor arcana of the 
> Tarot include the knave, the knight, the queen, and the king. 
> 'elector' sounds like the German kings, and 'patronness' is a 
> reasonable description of a queen.

---

From: Andy Robertson <pinlighter at btconnect.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2013 05:48:50 +0000

"Bluer of cheek"= more and darker stubble on theface,  if shaven. A 
thick black beard if not shaven.

And in this bit
>>     she may be, but she gets too dry for me, or you couldn't walk
>>     upon it.
>>

"She" refers to the condition of the ground, or rasther  the swampy mat 
of plants, on which Severian is walking.   This has no sharply defined 
edge, and
so the boat, which is in a relatively weed-free bit of water, can't get 
close to the nearly solid bits where Severian is.

hartshorn     (Still very happily lurking, and a merrry Xmas to you all)
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