{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6485", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6485, "subject": "Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "2013-12-17T15:16:12+00:00", "last": "2013-12-20T20:10:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-17T15:16:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee (severiansola at hotmail.com): Personally, I find the five coffins in the\nmausoleum to be impossible to plausibly understand at just a narrative\nlevel. I find it to be most essentially autobiographical in the manner of a\npuzzle in its referent, The Fifth Head of Cerberus. . . . I first posted\nthese ideas on this board a number of years ago, so perhaps there is a\nchance this is what you were looking for Michael?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, Lee - this is certainly a component of what I'm looking for. I\nagree that in order to understand tBotNS or tFHoC, we need to take account\nof Wolfe's propensity for autobiography, self-reference, etc., and I think\nyour thoughts (which I certainly do recognize) shed a lot of light into the\nshadowy mausoleum. But the five coffins -- *two empty, three closed* --\nshould work not only on the level of authorial symbol, but the level of\nnarrative as well, shouldn't they? I think this meticulous author and his\nmeticulously plotted book deserve the benefit of that doubt. Severian\ntells us: \"Before you assume that I have cheated you, read again . . .\"\n(Citadel, 405).\n\n*New theory (? - or maybe you've heard it before - is there anything new\nunder the New Sun?). **Five coffins, two empty, three closed.* In\nCitadel, Severian our narrator tells us of a second \"first Severian.\" What\nif Severian is, like the narrator of tFHoC, a clone? One of five clones,\neach initially housed in the mausoleum, which is dislocated in time like\nthe house of Master Ash or one of the botanical gardens? At the time our\nnarrator Severian is leaving Urth for his trial, two of the clones have\nleft/been released from the mausoleum (narrator-Sev and the \"first\nSeverian\" who came before). If the mausoleum is dislocated in time, then\nit is possible that each one of the clones would exit into a different\nstrand in the \"tapestry\" of time. Perhaps whoever constructed the\nmausoleum and put the five Severians there was/is planning to release them\none by one until one of the clones successfully brings the New Sun?\n\n*Clones in the text. *I remember reading in a Wolfe interview that the\nprostitutes in the House Azure, the \"khaibits,\" are in fact clones of the\nChatelaines. I think we need to entertain the idea that Father Inire --\n\"alive so long beyond the span of his short-lived kind\" (Citadel, 405) --\nwho seems (to me) to be many places at once, is not a single person but a\nmultitude of clones (reminded of Borsky's Palaemon as Inire theory,\nWright's Ceryx as Inire theory (AD 84), and all the \"bent\" \"crooked\" or\n\"small\" men who show up cowled or masked in the text -- servitor who\nconfers with the Autarch and escorts Sev to the Green Room (Claw 338), the\nmasked medicine man escorting Sev in the jungle toward the end of Citadel).\n tFHoC certainly alerts us to the clone as a Wolfe convention and plot\ndevice -- could it be a key as well?\n\nCould a Severian-as-clone theory explain the baffling scene involving the\ngrotesque homunculus who addresses Severian as \"brother\" (Citadel, 388)?\n\nIf this theory has any legs at all -- a dubious prospect! -- we would need\nto account for a sixth Severian, the natural born man, son of Ouen and\nCatherine, grandson of Dorcas, etc., who was cloned five times.\n\nThoughts?\n\n\n\n\nDate: Mon, 16 Dec 2013 10:48:13 -0500\nFrom: Lee \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSubject: (urth) Five Severians\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Thayer: Druissi's eight Severians theory is a bit opaque." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Driussi is usually fairly circumspect in injecting his own\ninterpretations onto Wolfe. But now and then, as in this case, he\ndemonstrates an ability to go off on his own tangent with almost Borskian\nintrepidity.\n\nPersonally, I find the five coffins in the mausoleum to be impossible to\nplausibly understand at just a narrative level. I find it to be most\nessentially autobiographical in the manner of a puzzle in its referent,\nThe Fifth Head of Cerberus.\n\nI think most here are aware that Wolfe once (remarkably) admitted that the\nsolution to the puzzle of figuring out Maitre's name in Fifth Head of\nCerberus\nis: \"Gene Wolfe\".\n\nI don't find this to be mere literary cleverness and sleight of hand. I\nthink\nthis is Wolfe's way of saying that much of the mystery of his work can find\nits solution in autobiography.\n\nI find the title \"Fifth Head of Cerberus\" itself to be a similar puzzle\n(Aunt\nJeannine suggests that it is). What are the \"five\" heads? We have Mr.\nMillion,\nhis first clone, Maitre and Number Five. So only four in the sequence. Who\nis the\nfifth?\n\nI think the answer is the person who came before Mr. Million and who\ncreated him\nas a character. I think the fifth head is Gene Wolfe (the author) and only\nby\ncatching that can you understand the title of the book and thus a main\nintended\nself-referential auctorial theme of the book.\n\nSo for me, the five coffins in the mausoleum are a direct reference to the\nearlier book title and a way of saying, \"once again I, Gene Wolfe as\nauthor, am\nan integral part of this story and my character Severian is a\nclone/extension\nof me in some ways\". Naming Severian's father \"Ouen\" (Welsh form of Eugene)\nmay\nalso make a similar point.\n\nI find Driussi's essay on the similarities between Wolfe's and Severian's\nlives to also be relevant to this general idea.\n\nExplaining why two of the coffins are open is a bit tough, but my best guess\nis that Wolfe is saying he has \"cloned\" himself into two of his previous\nnovels, those being Fifth Head of Cerberus and Peace.\n\nInterestingly, Daniel Otto Jack Peterson has recently posted a link to a\nreview of\nPeace which mentions its autobiographical mysteries and the self-awareness\nof the\nauthor as he creates the story and its characters.\n\nFWIW, I first posted these ideas on this board a number of years ago, so\nperhaps\nthere is a chance this is what you were looking for Michael?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<58F114BD-76E3-44E6-A939-BF3EA916EB4A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-18T13:14:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At the risk of sounding pedestrian, I just don't see why such clones would be stored in such a place (but maybe those aren't coffins? Certainly Sev's mention of liking to sleep inside looks like something that ought to draw attention in a book where so much isn't what it seems).\n\nDon't be afraid to fire away theories! This list has seen all sorts of things with plenty of rhyme but not so much reason, whereas yours have the merit of being derived from the books." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B1AF11.6080103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-18T14:20:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/17/2013 10:16 AM, Michael Thayer wrote:\n*New theory (? - or maybe you've heard it before - is there anything \nnew under the New Sun?). *_Five coffins, two empty, three closed._ In \nCitadel, Severian our narrator tells us of a second \"first Severian.\" \n What if Severian is, like the narrator of tFHoC, a clone? One of \nfive clones, each initially housed in the mausoleum, which is \ndislocated in time like the house of Master Ash or one of the \nbotanical gardens? At the time our narrator Severian is leaving Urth \nfor his trial, two of the clones have left/been released from the \nmausoleum (narrator-Sev and the \"first Severian\" who came before). If \nthe mausoleum is dislocated in time, then it is possible that each one \nof the clones would exit into a different strand in the \"tapestry\" of \ntime. Perhaps whoever constructed the mausoleum and put the five \nSeverians there was/is planning to release them one by one until one \nof the clones successfully brings the New Sun?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The cloning theory is well grounded, but temporally dislocating the \nmausoleum is new AFAIK. In a way, I don't like this, because it seems to \nmove the explanation further away rather than explain it. Where is this \nplace? how does Severian get there? who put it there? But Lee is right, \nand the best answer may simply be \"Gene Wolfe.\" Whether it's out of time \nor not.\n\nI see none of the usual clues to time dislocation: Severian doesn't \nrefer to time passing or not passing, and it seems like there are easier \nways to store clones than by slowing time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "*Clones in the text. *I remember reading in a Wolfe interview that the \nprostitutes in the House Azure, the \"khaibits,\" are in fact clones of \nthe Chatelaines. I think we need to entertain the idea that Father \nInire -- \"alive so long beyond the span of his short-lived kind\" \n(Citadel, 405) -- who seems (to me) to be many places at once, is not \na single person but a multitude of clones (reminded of Borsky's \nPalaemon as Inire theory, Wright's Ceryx as Inire theory (AD 84), and \nall the \"bent\" \"crooked\" or \"small\" men who show up cowled or masked \nin the text -- servitor who confers with the Autarch and escorts Sev \nto the Green Room (Claw 338), the masked medicine man escorting Sev in \nthe jungle toward the end of Citadel). tFHoC certainly alerts us to \nthe clone as a Wolfe convention and plot device -- could it be a key \nas well?\n\nCould a Severian-as-clone theory explain the baffling scene involving \nthe grotesque homunculus who addresses Severian as \"brother\" (Citadel, \n388)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Absolutely!\n\nInire does get around (and so do his images), but then what does it mean \nwhen Inire says in his letter that he is away?\n\nNot to mention: who cloned him, when, why? Does Severian know? I don't \nthink we can use the \"Gene Wolfe\" answer twice. But his character does \nseem to have a form, if you will, that is larger than its content, much \nlike Erebus, Abaia, and the others with Korean War parallels. He could \nvery well be \"someone else\" or the agent of that person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this theory has any legs at all -- a dubious prospect! -- we would \nneed to account for a sixth Severian, the natural born man, son of \nOuen and Catherine, grandson of Dorcas, etc., who was cloned five times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We also need to account for Valeria, her family, and the rest of the \nCitadel, which is only superficially a cluster of 1940s-style rocket \nships---all but the Witches' Tower. (That and Valeria bug me most of all.)\n\nValeria may well be in the same time-dislocated space as the Severian \nclones in storage, as has been suggested. But nothing she tells Severian \nindicates this; rather, much time has passed since her family was \ninvolved in Citadel affairs, and while her family seems isolated it is \nplainly not completely so. If she seems old-fashioned, the evidence \ngiven points toward poverty and past wealth, not time dislocation.\n\nYet the Atrium does do something time related: she says the dials were \nput there because of its function, not the reverse. If so, her family \nmay be affected by its proximity.\n\nIt may also be that she is related to Severian, with her \"dark hair.\" If \nthose are her family's towers, why not also the Atrium and the \nmausoleum? If her family produced all the Citadel's castellans at the \npeak of its power (both the family's and the Citadel's, and probably \nfrom Typhon's time onward), they would once have had access to the \nhighest technology possessed by Man. They could even be related to \nTyphon's family.\n\nIf she is all her family's daughters and sons, then either she is merely \nthe only one (meaning her family is about to die utterly with her) or \nshe is genetically identified with others unknown (i.e., Severian). \nEither explanation could justify Severian's interest in her. But \nidentifying Valeria with Severian might violate the parallel with \nRosemary (may she rest in peace)." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1387381708.88927.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-18T15:48:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B1AF11.6080103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"If she is all her family's daughters and sons, then either she is merely the only one (meaning her family is about to die utterly with her) or she is genetically identified with others unknown (i.e., Severian). Either explanation could justify Severian's interest in her.\"\n\nValeria's use of the word \"breeds\" bothers me the most. It just screams \"clone\" to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:20 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nOn 12/17/2013 10:16 AM, Michael Thayer wrote:\n\nNew theory (? - or maybe you've heard it before - is there anything new under the New Sun?). “Five coffins, two empty, three closed. ?In Citadel, Severian our narrator tells us of a second \"first Severian.\" ?What if Severian is, like the narrator of tFHoC, a clone” “One of five clones, each initially housed in the mausoleum, which is dislocated in time like the house of Master Ash or one of the botanical gardens” “At the time our narrator Severian is leaving Urth for his trial, two of the clones have left/been released from the mausoleum (narrator-Sev and the \"first Severian\" who came before). ?If the mausoleum is dislocated in time, then it is possible that each one of the clones would exit into a different strand in the \"tapestry\" of time. ?Perhaps whoever constructed the mausoleum and put the five Severians there was/is planning to release them one by one until one of the clones successfully brings the New Sun” " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cloning theory is well grounded, but temporally dislocating the\n mausoleum is new AFAIK. In a way, I don't like this, because it\n seems to move the explanation further away rather than explain it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Where is this place? how does Severian get there? who put it there?\n But Lee is right, and the best answer may simply be \"Gene Wolfe.\"\n Whether it's out of time or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see none of the usual clues to time dislocation: Severian doesn't\n refer to time passing or not passing, and it seems like there are\n easier ways to store clones than by slowing time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Clones in the text. ?I remember reading in a Wolfe interview that the prostitutes in the House Azure, the \"khaibits,\" are in fact clones of the Chatelaines. ?I think we need to entertain the idea that Father Inire -- \"alive so long beyond the span of his short-lived kind\" (Citadel, 405) -- who seems (to me) to be many places at once, is not a single person but a multitude of clones (reminded of Borsky's Palaemon as Inire theory, Wright's Ceryx as Inire theory (AD 84), and all the \"bent\" \"crooked\" or \"small\" men who show up cowled or masked in the text -- servitor who confers with the Autarch and escorts Sev to the Green Room (Claw 338), the masked medicine man escorting Sev in the jungle toward the end of Citadel). “tFHoC certainly alerts us to the clone as a Wolfe convention and plot device -- could it be a key as well” ?\n\n\nCould a Severian-as-clone theory explain the baffling scene involving the grotesque homunculus who addresses Severian as \"brother\" (Citadel, 388)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Absolutely!\n\nInire does get around (and so do his images), but then what does it\n mean when Inire says in his letter that he is away?\n\nNot to mention: who cloned him, when, why? Does Severian know? I\n don't think we can use the \"Gene Wolfe\" answer twice. But his\n character does seem to have a form, if you will, that is larger than\n its content, much like Erebus, Abaia, and the others with Korean War\n parallels. He could very well be \"someone else\" or the agent of that\n person.\n\n\n\nIf this theory has any legs at all -- a dubious prospect! -- we would need to account for a sixth Severian, the natural born man, son of Ouen and Catherine, grandson of Dorcas, etc., who was cloned five times. ? ? ?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We also need to account for Valeria, her family, and the rest of the\n Citadel, which is only superficially a cluster of 1940s-style rocket\n ships---all but the Witches' Tower. (That and Valeria bug me most of\n all.)\n\nValeria may well be in the same time-dislocated space as the\n Severian clones in storage, as has been suggested. But nothing she\n tells Severian indicates this; rather, much time has passed since\n her family was involved in Citadel affairs, and while her family\n seems isolated it is plainly not completely so. If she seems\n old-fashioned, the evidence given points toward poverty and past\n wealth, not time dislocation. \n\nYet the Atrium does do something time related: she says the dials\n were put there because of its function, not the reverse. If so, her\n family may be affected by its proximity.\n\nIt may also be that she is related to Severian, with her \"dark\n hair.\" If those are her family's towers, why not also the Atrium and\n the mausoleum? If her family produced all the Citadel's castellans\n at the peak of its power (both the family's and the Citadel's, and\n probably from Typhon's time onward), they would once have had access\n to the highest technology possessed by Man. They could even be\n related to Typhon's family.\n\nIf she is all her family's daughters and sons, then either she is\n merely the only one (meaning her family is about to die utterly with\n her) or she is genetically identified with others unknown (i.e.,\n Severian). Either explanation could justify Severian's interest in\n her. But identifying Valeria with Severian might violate the\n parallel with Rosemary (may she rest in peace).\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-18T22:08:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<1387381708.88927.YahooMailNeo@web121602.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "etonio at gmail.com: At the risk of sounding pedestrian, I just don't see\nwhy such clones would be stored in such a place (but maybe those aren't\ncoffins? Certainly Sev's mention of liking to sleep inside looks like\nsomething that ought to draw attention in a book where so much isn't what\nit seems)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't be afraid to fire away theories! This list has seen all sorts of\nthings with plenty of rhyme but not so much reason, whereas yours have the\nmerit of being derived from the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, etonio, I assure you I am the pedestrian on this street! I don't\nhave any idea why someone would store clones inside coffins in a\ntime-dislocated mausoleum.* I admit it may be a fatal flaw in the\nargument. But I think that any explanation for the mausoleum -- with its\nfive coffins, two empty, three closed -- will present similar difficulties\n(maybe not? if not, please pipe up!). In any event, my focus isn't on\nexploring the Severian-as-clone theory, but on answering the question:\nwhat's up with the five coffins in Severian's mausoleum, two open, three\nclosed? What/who/which-versions-of-who was/is/will be inside of them? I\ncan't help but think that this is -- if not the threshold mystery of the\nnovel -- one of the first tier mysteries, and I can't find a satisfying\ntheory anywhere!\n\n*(Not for nothing, Father Inire's Second House consists of rooms that look\nlike paintings, so why not a clone-storage unit that looks like a coffin --\nInire may be one of the walkers of the Corridors of Time that Severian\ntells us is manipulating his destiny - Citadel, pg. 405-406 - and, if so,\nhe could be behind the mausoleum of clones. I think this is at least\nas plausible as some theories on other topics published by Borsky or Clute,\nso I figured I'd throw it out there and see if it strikes a chord with\nanyone else.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B26382.7010900@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-12-19T03:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<58F114BD-76E3-44E6-A939-BF3EA916EB4A@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2013 7:14 AM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nAt the risk of sounding pedestrian, I just don't see why such clones would be stored in such a place (but maybe those aren't coffins?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a fine place to store dead clones. Three closed coffins = three \ndead clones, or three timeline dopplegangers paradoxed away. Two empties \nwould suggest Sev the narrator has one more clone left somewhere, or one \nmore timeline alteration yet to be made before the Yesodis are satisfied." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T16:14:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B26382.7010900@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Michael Thayer: I agree that in order to understand tBotNS or tFHoC, we need to \ntake account of Wolfe's propensity for autobiography, self-reference, etc., and \nI think your thoughts (which I certainly do recognize) shed a lot of light into the\nshadowy mausoleum. But the five coffins -- *two empty, three closed* --\nshould work not only on the level of authorial symbol, but the level of\nnarrative as well, shouldn't they?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Wolfe is meticulous enough to write at multiple levels and to impart real\nmeaning at multiple levels. But surely some levels of meaning take precedence over \nothers for certain sections. Wolfe is still human (I think). And for me, the mausoleum\nhas more self-referential meaning than Severian/narrative meaning. For me, we are told\nthere was another previous Severian and there are two coffins open, and that is \nsufficient narrative meaning for me.\n\nI like Entonio's observation that perhaps they are not really just \"coffins\". The\nspeculation by so many about possible cloning scenarios demonstrates that there is\nsufficient evidence in BotNS to at least speculate on possibilities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we need to entertain the idea that Father Inire --\n\"alive so long beyond the span of his short-lived kind\" (Citadel, 405) --\nwho seems (to me) to be many places at once, is not a single person but a\nmultitude of clones...and all the \"bent\" \"crooked\" or\n\"small\" men who show up cowled or masked in the text -- servitor who\nconfers with the Autarch and escorts Sev to the Green Room (Claw 338), the\nmasked medicine man escorting Sev in the jungle toward the end of Citadel).\ntFHoC certainly alerts us to the clone as a Wolfe convention and plot\ndevice -- could it be a key as well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I very much think so. I've had a similar \"Father Inire Theory\" for a number of years.\nA key difference might be the mode of cloning. Cloning a human presumably means\nspecial biological laboratory equipment as we see in Maitre's and Typhon's and\nBaldander's labs. But key question:\n\nIs Father Inire human?\n\nAs a \"cacogen\", surely not. Are we shown an alien form of \"cloning\" which might be a\nmore natural biological function not requiring laboratory manipulation? \n\nYes, with Tzadkiel. In the Captain's chambers, the huge Tzadkiel has one of her fingers \nbreak off and form into a human sized Tzadkiel. A sponge (sea creature!)-like reproductive\nprocess is used to explain it. We see similar human-sized buds from giant sea creatures\non Blue and on Urth with Great Scylla in the Short Sun trilogy. Perhaps something like \nthis process has produced our multiple Father Inire \"clones\"?\n\nI'll go further out on a limb. Tzadkiel tells Severian that he had been an acolyte of\nSeverian's in a previous iteration. Is this a throwaway line or are we supposed to guess\nthe identity of this \"acolyte\"? There are few plausible candidates. \n\nBut I go out on a limb and propose- Hethor. Even among Severian-as-Conciliator's followers,\nno character more deeply expresses fawning admiration for Severian and calling of \"Master\" \nthan Hethor.\n\nBut how could Hethor be associated with Tzadkiel? Because he served on Tzadkiel's Ship. \nBecause in his rantings there is talk of him being part of a mutiny to displace the Captain.\nBecause Severian sees someone looking like Hethor among the \"Jibers\". Might Hethor have \noriginated as a broken off piece of Tzadkiel just like the tinker-bell Tzadkiel? Yes, \nHethor is a \"demon\". But what is a demon but an angel who has rebelled and has fallen to \nearth (Urth)?\n\nHow does Hethor relate to Father Inire? Both are from off-Urth Both are crooked little guys. \nBoth use mirrors and are associated with monsters (Inire's \"teratoid symbols). Both seem to \nbe keeping an eye on Severian through his travels and adventures. Inire's mirror book shows\nTzadkiel. (FWIW, Inire has some connections to Dionysus, as does the Outsider in Short Sun).\n\nFinal summation, perhaps some \"clones\" in this series are part of a natural biological alien\nprocess. Tag question- How might Severian fit into that scheme? (to be addressed in another\npost) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T16:35:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have not seen in the speculations on the Mausoleum and Severian as\na clone is a mention of the end of RTTW, in which SilkHorn and his retinue\ntravel to Urth and end up in the Necropolis and in a mausoleum (not\nSeverian's) to inter the remains of the girl Cilinia.\n\nCilinia is associated with Scylla of the Whorl and also to Great\nScylla, the giant sea creature with female buds on her back, each wearing \nan \"abaia\".\n\nI find the Urth scenes in RTTW to function as the final Urth of the New Sun,\nwritten to give us hints to mysteries in the previous story that nobody has\nsolved. So I think Scylla/Cilinia's mausoleum scene is meant to tell us\nsomething important.\n\nMy guess is that it tells us that Severian has an ancestry similar to Scylla's\nin some way. Somehow, someway he is, at least partially, a product of the \nprocess that produced these giant, alien sea creatures and and electronic gods\nof the Whorl.\n\nSeverian is a Hero. And the BotNS is modelled to a degree on the mythological\ntales of epic heroes. I find that Severian, like Heracles, Perseus, Theseus, etc. \nis a guy who grows up thinking he is human, but secretly has \"divine\" parentage.\nHe finds himself to have superhuman powers and miraculously able to live\nthrough anything (even death). He is inexplicably risen to power and ends up\ninteracting with the highest of beings across time and universes, and in the \nend finds himself to be worshipped as a god.\n\nThus when the question of cloning Severian comes up, I suspect the answer, (as\nwe see for the creation of his eidolons) will not be the same laboratory process\nthat we might expect for the usual cloning of normal human beings. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B475C5.8060405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-20T16:52:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2013 11:35 AM, Lee wrote:\nSeverian is a Hero. And the BotNS is modelled to a degree on the mythological\ntales of epic heroes. I find that Severian, like Heracles, Perseus, Theseus, etc.\nis a guy who grows up thinking he is human, but secretly has \"divine\" parentage.\nHe finds himself to have superhuman powers and miraculously able to live\nthrough anything (even death). He is inexplicably risen to power and ends up\ninteracting with the highest of beings across time and universes, and in the\nend finds himself to be worshipped as a god." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Definitely! Good observation about RTTW too. Technically, Severian is a \ndemigod." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T20:10:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians -- Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B475C5.8060405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Technically, Severian is a demigod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed! And for me that eggs the questions:\n\nWhat are Typhon-Pas, Echidna and Scylla?\n\nWhat are Tzadkiel, F, B and O?\n\nWhat are Father Inire and The Cumaean?\n\nWhat is The Outsider?\n\nIf we condense the ancient god pantheons and judeo-christian beliefs\ninto one scheme (as I think Wolfe does), I think we can make some very good,\ndefinitive guesses. Especially if we conflate the ancient pagan gods with \njudeo-christian demons.\n\nPrometheus/Azazel is an example of the ancients doing just that. Jove/\nJehovah may be something similar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul Watson: First, it's a family mausoleum, but I can't get that one to fit \n(too many of Severian's relatives still alive during the BotNS to account for \n2 open coffins)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it works as a family mausoleum if the family is one such as found in \nFifth Head of Cerberus with Mr. Million, Maitre and Number Five. Especially if\nwe can concede that all of them, in some way, can be seen as \"Gene Wolfe\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I never much cared for this kind of stuff, Jolenta as Marilyn Monroe \nand whatnot. Of course autobiography is in there in some way shape or form , but this \nkind of mapping always rubbed me as interpretationally barren. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree and disagree. I think it serves the general principle of acknowledgement\nof autobiography, which is so important it can barely be overestimated. But the problems\nkick in from being too detailed, subjecting each element to scrutiny and debate.\n\nFor example I think Marilyn Monroe is not the best choice as a model for Jolenta.\nShe is too blonde and not busty enough. OTOH, there was a drab looking Hollywood \nbrunette named Margarita Cansino who was transformed into \"The Sex Goddess\". With a \nhuge make-over, which included plastic surgery and red hair dye, she became the silver screen \nbombshell Rita Hayworth. Her famous pin-up (seen in Shawshank Redemption) \nremained popular among soldiers through the Korean war.\n\nI could argue with myself that Tina Louise, another busty, red-headed screen bombshell \nmakes a good candidate for Jolenta also. Her dynamic on Gilligan's Island as Ginger \nin contrast with the pretty but less glamorous Mary Ann, is very similar to what we see \nbetween Jolenta and Dorcas.\n\nBut such arguments, while perhaps fun, distract from the original autobiographical message\nwhich I think is more important than identifying exactly what element from the real world\nmatches elements in Wolfe's fiction. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }