Editor in China requesting help with translation The Urth list — 5 messages, 4 voices, 17 Dec 2013 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6486 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== Lee — 17 Dec 2013, 15:25 > I carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like them, and I > should be bluer of cheek than the run of common men, and the next day > begged my pardon for it, saying I was that already. IIRC, the "she" is Thecla speaking to Severian while imprisoned. I can't see why she would beg for pardon for saying he wasn't yet pale enough. Thecla struggled between dismissing Severian as a boy toy and truly caring about him. So I am with the majority in thinking the "blue" refers to beard shadow and this is an example in which she fears she had implied he was not yet a man and hopes to make up for it. > confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop > the patroness of another My first thought on seeing the word "suit" in the context of a love affair is the idea of seeking a hand in marriage, as in "suitor". Perhaps it is a bit of that, but I prefer the primary meaning as interpreted by Gwern as tarot card reading as it relates both to putting a suit upon a suit and confirming a love affair outcome through fortune telling. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jerry Friedman — 18 Dec 2013, 16:16 in reply to Lee > On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 10:25 AM, Lee wrote: > I carried them to her, and she said my beard had shot up like them, and I > should be bluer of cheek than the run of common men, and the next day > begged my pardon for it, saying I was that already. > > IIRC, the "she" is Thecla speaking to Severian while imprisoned. I can't > see why she would beg for pardon for saying he wasn't yet pale enough. > > Thecla struggled between dismissing Severian as a boy toy and truly caring > about him. So I am with the majority in thinking the "blue" refers to beard > shadow and this is an example in which she fears she had implied he was not > yet a man and hopes to make up for it. I agree completely. As a prisoner, she has nothing to think about all day but whether she has offended her boy lover, who she hopes will be helpful to her. > > confirm the outcome of a love affair by putting the elector of one suit atop > > the patroness of another > My first thought on seeing the word "suit" in the context of a love affair > is the idea of seeking a hand in marriage, as in "suitor". > > Perhaps it is a bit of that, but I prefer the primary meaning as interpreted > by Gwern as tarot card reading as it relates both to putting a suit upon a suit > and confirming a love affair outcome through fortune telling. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? I agree again, except that the cards don't have to be Tarot cards. You can tell fortunes with regular cards, too, as Carmen does in the opera. So the suits are spades, hearts, diamonds, and clubs, or swords, cups, coins, and wands, or whatever they are in the Commonwealth. (Is it strange that Wolfe doesn't make up suits for us--rockets and chips, for instance?)? Elector and patroness are two ranks. Does Severian know anything about kings and queens? Jerry Friedman ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gwern Branwen — 18 Dec 2013, 16:20 in reply to Jerry Friedman > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Jerry Friedman > wrote: > Does > Severian know anything about kings and queens? Yes. Grepping my 5 ebooks of _New Sun_, there are the following hits: There was a sudden intensity in his quavering voice. "Severian, the king was elected at the Marchfield. Counts were appointed by the kings. That was what they called the dark ages. A baron was only a approach of battles, earthquakes, and the murders of kings. stoppered flask, and by breaking the seal and drawing forth the cork became queen from ice to ice. Just muttered, "Yes, it is a very old story, and the hero had told the king, his father, that if he failed he would a lovely woman named Early Summer. She was the queen of that land, but her king was a strong, unforgiving man, and because she plant entered her and she conceived. She told the king, however, prophecies pleased the king much. in demeanor and obedient to the king (whom he believed to be his the king's enemies were drilled until they seemed men of bronze to Urth, and there he came to know of two brothers who were kings. never breed sons who would claim their grandfather's kingdom, their growth in her womb from the king, her uncle, they could not forth the wolves and called them the people of his kingdom, and and many men they went to the king and demanded their heritage. acknowledged queen of all the chickens for leagues around. How flew wild in the wind; Jolenta a floriate queen in armor spikey with Barbatus added, "You've commanded armies, Severian. You're a king and a the queen or guardian of your Urth, dismiss the thought. I am not. But yes, "You think me a queen, or something of the sort. Will it amaze you to discover Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will soon be driven Abaia's, whose kingdom is in the warm waters. With others, less in might but a thing more marvelous on Yesod. The young king, bright with such gold as is -- gwern http://www.gwern.net ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAVID STOCKHOFF — 18 Dec 2013, 17:00 in reply to Gwern Branwen Well, he knows the words, or seems to, though AFAICT none of these usages is Severian's, though ultimately all cases are the translator's usage. One is Jonas's. But let's take them at face value. To Severian those words must be as archaic and obscure as, say, "haruspex" is to us, or perhaps only "godking" or "imperator." There are no kings or queens in Urth and may have not been for chiliads, because of Typhon, the autarchy, and Erebus/Abaia/Ascia. I interpret their use to suggest political unreality (and in a sense generic neutrality, as opposed to, say, "Chairman") vs. political reality---same as in our fairy tales but more so. Similarly, "prince" is the son of a king, not the lord of an ancient principality. The upshot is that I don't expect the card above "patroness" to be "king." In the tarot, as Gwern points out, there are four face cards; in the regular deck only three. Either it is elector/patroness/autarch or it is something like page?/uhlan?/patroness/elector. And given the Byzantine and Holy Roman touches, I'd go with the latter (Tarot). On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:20 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote: On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Jerry Friedman > wrote: > > Does > > Severian know anything about kings and queens? > Yes. Grepping my 5 ebooks of _New Sun_, there are the following hits: > > ? ? There was a sudden intensity in his quavering voice. "Severian, > the king was elected at the Marchfield. > ? ? Counts were appointed by the kings. That was what they called the > dark ages. A baron was only a > ? ? approach of battles, earthquakes, and the murders of kings. > ? ? stoppered flask, and by breaking the seal and drawing forth the > cork became queen from ice to ice. Just > ? ? muttered, "Yes, it is a very old story, and the hero had told the > king, his father, that if he failed he would > ? ? a lovely woman named Early Summer. She was the queen of that > ? ? land, but her king was a strong, unforgiving man, and because she > ? ? plant entered her and she conceived. She told the king, however, > ? ? prophecies pleased the king much. > ? ? in demeanor and obedient to the king (whom he believed to be his > ? ? the king's enemies were drilled until they seemed men of bronze > ? ? to Urth, and there he came to know of two brothers who were kings. > ? ? never breed sons who would claim their grandfather's kingdom, > ? ? their growth in her womb from the king, her uncle, they could not > ? ? forth the wolves and called them the people of his kingdom, and > ? ? and many men they went to the king and demanded their heritage. > ? ? acknowledged queen of all the chickens for leagues around. How > ? ? flew wild in the wind; Jolenta a floriate queen in armor spikey with > ? ? Barbatus added, "You've commanded armies, Severian. You're a king and a > ? ? the queen or guardian of your Urth, dismiss the thought. I am not. But yes, > ? ? "You think me a queen, or something of the sort. Will it amaze you > to discover > ? ? Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will soon be driven > ? ? Abaia's, whose kingdom is in the warm waters. With others, less in might but > ? ? a thing more marvelous on Yesod. The young king, bright with such gold as is > > -- > gwern > http://www.gwern.net > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ DAVID STOCKHOFF — 18 Dec 2013, 18:09 in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF "(Is it strange that Wolfe doesn't make up suits for us--rockets and chips, for instance?)? " Great name for a starport eatery: Ships'n'Chips. Or would that be more like a Radio Shack? > On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 12:00 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: > > Well, he knows the words, or seems to, though AFAICT none of these usages is Severian's, though ultimately all cases are the translator's usage. One is Jonas's. > > > > But let's take them at face value. To Severian those words must be as archaic and obscure as, say, "haruspex" is to us, or perhaps only "godking" or "imperator." There are no kings or queens in Urth and may have not been for chiliads, because of Typhon, the autarchy, and Erebus/Abaia/Ascia. I interpret their use to suggest political unreality (and in a sense generic neutrality, as opposed to, say, "Chairman") vs. political reality---same as in our fairy tales but more so. Similarly, "prince" is the son of a king, not the lord of an ancient principality. > > > The upshot is that I don't expect the card above "patroness" to be "king." In the tarot, as Gwern points out, there are four face cards; in the regular deck only three. Either it is elector/patroness/autarch or it is something like page?/uhlan?/patroness/elector. And given the Byzantine and Holy Roman touches, I'd go with the latter (Tarot). > > > > > On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 11:20 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Jerry Friedman > wrote: > > > Does > > > Severian know anything about kings and queens? > > Yes. Grepping my 5 ebooks of _New Sun_, there are the following hits: > > > > ? ? There was a sudden intensity in his quavering voice. "Severian, > > the king was elected at the Marchfield. > > ? ? Counts were appointed by the kings. That was what they called the > > dark ages. A baron was only a > > ? ? approach of battles, earthquakes, and the murders of kings. > > ? ? stoppered flask, and by breaking the seal and drawing forth the > > cork became queen from ice to ice. Just > > ? ? muttered, "Yes, it is a very old story, and the hero had told the > > king, his father, that if he failed he would > > ? ? a lovely woman named Early Summer. She was the queen of that > > ? ? land, but her king was a strong, unforgiving man, and because she > > ? ? plant entered her and she conceived. She told the king, however, > > ? ? prophecies pleased the king much. > > ? ? in demeanor and obedient to the king (whom he believed to be his > > ? ? the king's enemies were drilled until they seemed men of bronze > > ? ? to Urth, and there he came to know of two brothers who were kings. > > ? ? never breed sons who would claim their grandfather's kingdom, > > ? ? their growth in her womb from the king, her uncle, they could not > > ? ? forth the wolves and called them the people of his kingdom, and > > ? ? and many men they went to the king and demanded their heritage. > > ? ? acknowledged queen of all the chickens for leagues around. How > > ? ? flew wild in the wind; Jolenta a floriate queen in armor spikey with > > ? ? Barbatus added, "You've commanded armies, Severian. You're a king and a > > ? ? the queen or guardian of your Urth, dismiss the thought. I am not. But yes, > > ? ? "You think me a queen, or something of the sort. Will it amaze you > > to discover > > ? ? Great Erebus, who has established his kingdom there, will soon be driven > > ? ? Abaia's, whose kingdom is in the warm waters. With > > others, less in might but > > ? ? a thing more marvelous on Yesod. The young king, bright with such gold as is > > > > -- > > gwern > > http://www.gwern.net > > > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------