{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6488", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6488, "subject": "Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "messages": 24, "voices": 8, "first": "2013-12-18T23:36:37+00:00", "last": "2013-12-24T19:26:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-18T23:36:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockoff: The cloning theory is well grounded, but temporally\ndislocating the mausoleum is new AFAIK. In a way, I don't like this,\nbecause it seems to move the explanation further away rather than explain\nit. Where is this place? how does Severian get there? who put it there? But\nLee is right, and the best answer may simply be \"Gene Wolfe.\" Whether it's\nout of time or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see none of the usual clues to time dislocation: Severian doesn't\nrefer to time passing or not passing, and it seems like there are easier\nways to store clones than by slowing time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reread the first and second mausoleum scenes (Shadow, 12-13, 21-22). The\npassages are pregnant with the concept of time. The door was sprung \"long\nago,\" and remains \"eternally ajar,\" and \"a moment suffices to describe\nthese things, which I watched for so long,\" \"decades\" wouldn't be long\nenough to write of them, the first thought that obsesses Severian while in\nthe mausoleum is that \"at some not-distant time, time itself would stop,\"\nand there is little to watch \"in the sleepy hours around noon.\" Shadow\n12-13. And again, when he returns to hide his coin, Sev travels over \"aged\ngrass\" and feels \"a proximity in time\" regarding the truth of imagined\nenemies. Shadow 21-22. Far from conclusive, but these passages perhaps\nprovide some textual support for linking the mausoleum, thematically at\nleast, to the concept of time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B255A4.8010302@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-19T02:10:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2013 6:36 PM, Michael Thayer wrote:\n\nReread the first and second mausoleum scenes (Shadow, 12-13, 21-22). \nThe passages are pregnant with the concept of time. The door was \nsprung \"long ago,\" and remains \"eternally ajar,\" and \"a moment \nsuffices to describe these things, which I watched for so long,\" \n\"decades\" wouldn't be long enough to write of them, the first thought \nthat obsesses Severian while in the mausoleum is that \"at some \nnot-distant time, time itself would stop,\" and there is little to \nwatch \"in the sleepy hours around noon.\" Shadow 12-13. And again, when \nhe returns to hide his coin, Sev travels over \"aged grass\" and feels \n\"a proximity in time\" regarding the truth of imagined enemies. Shadow \n21-22. Far from conclusive, but these passages perhaps provide some \ntextual support for linking the mausoleum, thematically at least, to \nthe concept of time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thematically, yes. Some of those lines suggest merely great age and \nstasis, while others do hint of something more. But he did spend many \nhours there, and the \"first thought\" about time ending was a thought \nabout himself. The mausoleum is the nexus of the various Severians, and \nit is he himself he might see if he looks over his shoulder.\n\nSame for the meeting with Valeria. It is after all the Atrium of Time. \nThe dials suggest many different times, not just great age, as though it \nalso is a nexus.\n\nTwo tangential observations:\n\n(1) Atrium and mausoleum: Eata believes himself to be related to a \nfamous family and\n\nEata, believing himself descended of that family, drew the arms of one \nof the great northern clans on the ceiling above his cot in the year of \nwhich I speak.\n\n\nWhen Severian meets Valeria, she serves him mate, a northern drink IIRC.\n\n(2) The White Fountain and Green: The \"second thought\" is\n\nThe second was that there existed somewhere a miraculous light-which I\n\nsometimes conceived of as a candle, sometimes as a flambeau---that \nengendered\n\nlife in whatever objects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a \nbush grew\n\nslender legs and waving feelers, and a rough brown brush opened black \neyes and\n\nscurried up a tree.\n\n\nor is this something else? a more generic idea of paradise?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-19T03:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B255A4.8010302@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: The mausoleum is the nexus of the various Severians, and\nit is he himself he might see if he looks over his shoulder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't disagree with this statement at all (in fact I'm very fond of it),\nand I certainly think you and I are on the same page (and not just\nliterally page 12 of Shadow!) -- but isn't it a bit fuzzy? In what way --\nin terms of plot mechanics -- is the mausoleum the nexus of the various\nSeverians?\n\nThe assumption behind the statement is that there are five various\nSeverians, one for each coffin, right? But surely these various instances\nof Severian do not walk the same time-strand/universe. Instead, they exist\nin alternate time-strands/parallel universes. We know this, textually,\nbecause we are expressly informed of at least two such alternate/parallel\nSeverians -- \"then those who walk the corridors walked back to the time\n[the first Severian] was young, and my own story . . . began\" Citadel, 406.\n The mausoleum suggests strongly that there are five such Severians (we are\ntold of two of the five (Citadel 406), just as we are told two of the five\ncoffins are open/empty (Shadow 12)). But why would the mausoleum in the\nsecond/narrator Severian's necropolis house the five coffins for five\nalternate/parallel Severians if four of the five Severians do not exist in\nhis universe/time-strand? Given the two alternate time-strand Severians we\nare told of, the two of five open coffins in Severian's mausoleum, the\nBotanical Gardens, Master Ash's Last House, and the numerous references to\ntime in the mausoleum scenes (Shadow 12-13, 21-22), I think we should\nseriously consider the possibility that the mausoleum is dislocated in time\nand may be entered from all five alternate universes. I don't know if you\nmeant it this literally, but, as you say, \"the mausoleum is the nexus of\nthe various Severians.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B26EF4.7000408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-19T03:58:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/18/2013 10:33 PM, Michael Thayer wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: The mausoleum is the nexus of the various Severians, and\nit is he himself he might see if he looks over his shoulder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't disagree with this statement at all (in fact I'm very fond of \nit), and I certainly think you and I are on the same page (and not \njust literally page 12 of Shadow!) -- but isn't it a bit fuzzy? In \nwhat way -- in terms of plot mechanics -- is the mausoleum the nexus \nof the various Severians?\n\nThe assumption behind the statement is that there are five various \nSeverians, one for each coffin, right? But surely these various \ninstances of Severian do not walk the same time-strand/universe. \n Instead, they exist in alternate time-strands/parallel universes. We \nknow this, textually, because we are expressly informed of at least \ntwo such alternate/parallel Severians -- \"then those who walk the \ncorridors walked back to the time [the first Severian] was young, and \nmy own story . . . began\" Citadel, 406. The mausoleum suggests \nstrongly that there are five such Severians (we are told of two of the \nfive (Citadel 406), just as we are told two of the five coffins are \nopen/empty (Shadow 12)). But why would the mausoleum in the \nsecond/narrator Severian's necropolis house the five coffins for five \nalternate/parallel Severians if four of the five Severians do not \nexist in his universe/time-strand? Given the two alternate \ntime-strand Severians we are told of, the two of five open coffins in \nSeverian's mausoleum, the Botanical Gardens, Master Ash's Last House, \nand the numerous references to time in the mausoleum scenes (Shadow \n12-13, 21-22), I think we should seriously consider the possibility \nthat the mausoleum is dislocated in time and may be entered from all \nfive alternate universes. I don't know if you meant it this \nliterally, but, as you say, \"the mausoleum is the nexus of the various \nSeverians.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I definitely meant that in terms of timestreams/iterations, but it \nwould depend on how you construct the five timelines: Are they \nsimultaneous, sequential, or concurrent? Are they separated by only a \nfew seconds, enough so they are dislocated from one another? Or is that \na meaningless question because they are utterly cut off from one another \n(Severian seems to doubt it)? Yet we know the five coffins are \"here,\" \nall at once, all together. There seems nothing magical or technological \nabout the mausoleum; it is merely old and, for Severian, haunted.\n\nAs Jeff suggests (and this is the simplest path I can envision), three \ncoffins have dead Severians and two do not yet have dead Severians. Of \ncourse there are problems with this---how do the Severians separate to \nbecome five, how do they return, how did his \"parents\" know there would \nbe five of him, and so on. Are they truly clones or are they \ntime-clones? Or eidolons?\n\nAnd is our Severian #4 or #5? I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is \nthe same Severian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in \nUNS. If there was a #5 (and there must be!), he may be only a hair \nbetter than #4, so that we as readers of UNS would never know the \ndifference if he replaced #4.\n\nAnd what gets you a coffin? Severian \"dies\" so many times it's hard to \nkeep track; I think he may leave a corpse once in BNS and once in UNS \nbefore his apotheosis. That would be five. How his body would have been \ninterred on Urth I do not know. (Of course you always have the symbolism \nof the \"open tomb,\" which might require that the last one stand \nempty---I have no idea.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B29D82.1050008@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-12-19T07:17:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B26EF4.7000408@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/18/2013 9:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nYes, I definitely meant that in terms of timestreams/iterations, but it\nwould depend on how you construct the five timelines: Are they\nsimultaneous, sequential, or concurrent? Are they separated by only a\nfew seconds, enough so they are dislocated from one another? Or is that\na meaningless question because they are utterly cut off from one another\n(Severian seems to doubt it)? Yet we know the five coffins are \"here,\"\nall at once, all together. There seems nothing magical or technological\nabout the mausoleum; it is merely old and, for Severian, haunted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I recall we are told that metal has become rather more precious in \nSev's time. The mausoleum may be signified as out of that time by the \nunstolen funeral bronzes, perhaps similar to Valeria's metal trimmed dress." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And is our Severian #4 or #5? I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is\nthe same Severian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in\nUNS. If there was a #5 (and there must be!), he may be only a hair\nbetter than #4, so that we as readers of UNS would never know the\ndifference if he replaced #4." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, that may be the case. Sev completes his BOTNS memoir, departs \nfor Yesod, does not return, and is presumed dead ( and does in fact die) \nfilling coffin #4. The final Sev emerges *from the past* via the \nCorridors of Time, and instead it is Urth who dies at last, washing away \nthe coffins or sealing them inside, in either case removing them from play." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B2F8D7.80706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-19T13:47:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B29D82.1050008@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2013 2:17 AM, Jeffery Wilson wrote:\nOn 12/18/2013 9:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, I definitely meant that in terms of timestreams/iterations, but it\nwould depend on how you construct the five timelines: Are they\nsimultaneous, sequential, or concurrent? Are they separated by only a\nfew seconds, enough so they are dislocated from one another? Or is that\na meaningless question because they are utterly cut off from one another\n(Severian seems to doubt it)? Yet we know the five coffins are \"here,\"\nall at once, all together. There seems nothing magical or technological\nabout the mausoleum; it is merely old and, for Severian, haunted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I recall we are told that metal has become rather more precious in \nSev's time. The mausoleum may be signified as out of that time by the \nunstolen funeral bronzes, perhaps similar to Valeria's metal trimmed \ndress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting point, and another connection between the two. But where the \nAtrium is reached by traveling through an underworld, increasing the \nsense of temporal isolation, the mausoleum is a place Severian visits \nalmost daily that seems well connected to the world by seasons and \nwildlife. It has a mood of sleepy stasis to it, but then it's Severian's \n\"spirit home\" in a way, where he has nothing to do but watch and wait. \nAnd of course he remembers everything he ever saw there.\n\nThe necropolis is after all guarded, though we see how poorly against a \ndetermined attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And is our Severian #4 or #5? I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is\nthe same Severian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in\nUNS. If there was a #5 (and there must be!), he may be only a hair\nbetter than #4, so that we as readers of UNS would never know the\ndifference if he replaced #4." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, that may be the case. Sev completes his BOTNS memoir, departs \nfor Yesod, does not return, and is presumed dead ( and does in fact \ndie) filling coffin #4. The final Sev emerges *from the past* via the \nCorridors of Time, and instead it is Urth who dies at last, washing \naway the coffins or sealing them inside, in either case removing them \nfrom play." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thus, leaving a symbolic open tomb. Excellent.\n\nI could have sworn Severian died in BNS too, but not so definitively as \nwhen Sidero (I think) kills him. I can't recall the event and I'll have \nto look for it.\n\nAt any rate, it always made me wonder if that was really supposed to \ntell us our Severian was never a simple flesh-and-blood, born-of-woman \nperson anyway---that he was an eidolon or time-copy all along. Just a \nthought.\n\nWho built the mausoleum? Severian? Typhon? Ymar? Inire? Gene Wolfe? Was \nthere ever a family who had those arms---one with actual women and children?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T01:38:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: As Jeff suggests (and this is the simplest path I can\nenvision), three coffins have dead Severians and two do not yet have dead\nSeverians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or could it be the opposite: two clones have been released, and three are\nstill yet to be awakened/activated. In this novel, an empty coffin may very\nwell signify resurrection rather than eventual death, and so the two empty\ncoffins could be those abandoned by the two Severians that have exited the\nmausoleum, gained the throne, and gone to their extrasolar trial (i.e., the\ntwo Severians of which we are told on pg. 406 of Citadel), leaving the\nthree closed coffins housing Severians who have yet to rise and exit the\nmausoleum (note that pg. 12 of Shadow describes the three closed coffins as\n\"waiting\" on the shelf - waiting for what?). I know that Jeff's theory that\nthe clones have already participated in the drama and are now dead explains\nwhy they are housed in a mausoleum, while my theory does not, and so I view\nboth theories as good ones worthy of further exploration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Are they truly clones or are they time-clones? Or\neidolons?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's what's so confusing -- Wolfe gives us (1) clones, (2)\nalternate-time-traveling-versions, and (3)\ncomputer-hologram/eidolon/aquastor versions. Three independent ways to\nduplicate an individual. (Unhelpful but interesting tangent: this presents\nthe possibility of the existence of an eidolon of a clone of an alternate\ntimeline Severian, or an alternate timeline version of an eidolon of his\nclone, etc.) I think Jeff and I have been thinking of the five Severians as\nliteral biological clones (Jeff, I don't mean to speak for you, please\ncorrect me if I'm wrong), but maybe the theory works better if the five\ncoffins belong to five alternate-timeline Severians, all housed in the\nmausoleum which is dislocated in time and reachable from each\nalternate-time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I could have sworn Severian died in BNS too, but not so definitively\nas when Sidero (I think) kills him. I can't recall the event and I'll\nhave to look for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you thinking of the avern battle with Agilus? I think a common\ninterpretation is that Severian died and came back to life in that scene." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is the same" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in UNS.\n\nI think a healthy skepticism about whether the narrators of UNS and BotNS\nare the same version of Severian is fair, but I don't know why you question\nwhether he really did pass the test in UNS? I'm intrigued -- what makes you\ndoubt that?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: I recall we are told that metal has become rather more\nprecious in Sev's time. The mausoleum may be signified as out of that time\nby the unstolen funeral bronzes, perhaps similar to Valeria's metal trimmed\ndress." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting observation. I think we should gather all the evidence and\nreally try to figure out if Wolfe included the clues necessary for the\nreader to conclude that the mausoleum is temporally dislocated. I'll be\nworking on that - any thoughts would be appreciated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Who built the mausoleum? Severian? Typhon? Ymar? Inire?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe? Was there ever a family who had those arms---one with actual\nwomen and children?\n\nThis is a central question. I have no idea. If it was built by the\nCommonwealth as a sort of matter of course at the end of a different\n(failed) Severian's life to house his remains, then what is it doing in the\nnecropolis when our Severian is a child? Again, I don't see why it would\nbe there unless it was somehow dislocated in time, or time-travelers (those\nwho walk the corridors of time that we are told on pg. 406 of Citadel\nmanipulate Severian's second journey to the throne - I think this is\nInire/hierodules, and possibly the undines as well) rebuilt it there. I\nthink the mausoleum could have been put there by someone who intended\nSeverian to find so that it would help shape his path and better prepare\nhim for his trial so that he would bring the New Sun.\n\n\nOn Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Michael Thayer ", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-20T02:12:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/19/2013 8:38 PM, Michael Thayer wrote:\nI could have sworn Severian died in BNS too, but not so definitively \nas when Sidero (I think) kills him. I can't recall the event and I'll \nhave to look for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you thinking of the avern battle with Agilus? I think a common \ninterpretation is that Severian died and came back to life in that scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I am not even sure the Severian of UNS is the same \nSeverian as BNS, or that Severian really did pass the test in UNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think a healthy skepticism about whether the narrators of UNS and \nBotNS are the same version of Severian is fair, but I don't know why \nyou question whether he really did pass the test in UNS? I'm intrigued \n-- what makes you doubt that?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's not like they handed him a golden key, Oz-style. (I don't \ntrust anyone in UNS.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Who built the mausoleum? Severian? Typhon? Ymar? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire? Gene Wolfe? Was there ever a family who had those arms---one \nwith actual women and children?\n\nThis is a central question. I have no idea. If it was built by the \nCommonwealth as a sort of matter of course at the end of a different \n(failed) Severian's life to house his remains, then what is it doing \nin the necropolis when our Severian is a child? Again, I don't see \nwhy it would be there unless it was somehow dislocated in time, or \ntime-travelers (those who walk the corridors of time that we are told \non pg. 406 of Citadel manipulate Severian's second journey to the \nthrone - I think this is Inire/hierodules, and possibly the undines as \nwell) rebuilt it there. I think the mausoleum could have been put \nthere by someone who intended Severian to find so that it would help \nshape his path and better prepare him for his trial so that he would \nbring the New Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had forgotten about the three backward-travelers in time. They would \nbe the ones in the best position to know how many coffins are needed and \nwhere to put them (assuming they are coffins). And remember Severian \ndoes describe \"the dead man\" in the mausoleum.\n\nAlso, if they are stored clones, then they would have to be shorter than \nthe bar to be accepted into the Guild at the beginning of their careers. \nThe coffins are full-size." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3E445D37-D940-45B8-AE4A-FD574A1082D6@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T04:39:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B2F8D7.80706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 19/12/2013, ?s 13:47, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But where the Atrium is reached by traveling through an underworld, increasing the sense of temporal isolation, the mausoleum is a place Severian visits almost daily that seems well connected to the world by seasons and wildlife. It has a mood of sleepy stasis to it, but then it's Severian's \"spirit home\" in a way, where he has nothing to do but watch and wait. And of course he remembers everything he ever saw there.\n\nThe necropolis is after all guarded, though we see how poorly against a determined attack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet, am I mistaken or no one else, besides Sev, ever drops by the mausoleum? Does any other character show any sign of knowing that the place even exists?\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T05:21:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't personally see how Severian would ever be a clone. He *is* an\naquastor duplicate for two stretches of URTH's narrative, as demonstrated\nby the dead material bodies left behind. That could account for two of the\nclosed coffins, the third might be from his drowning/not drowning at the\nopening of SHADOW. He records Juturna saving him, but perhaps she lifted\nhis clinically dead body from the murk into the light where the White\nFountain empowered his gift.\n\nAquastored - fall on Ship, killed by Stone Villagers\n\nself-raised - avern duel and earthquake in the citadel, possibly drowning\nin Gyoll\n\nplease fill in any others, it's late here.\n\n\nAlso, the *family* mausoleum could be for his family members as well\n(Dorcas, Ouen, etc) and the face on the mausoleum could be Ouen's or\nanother male relative's as well." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Gillingham", "address": "charlesgillingham at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T08:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is my first time posting, so please correct me if this is stupid,\nand/or has been brought up before.\n\nCentral to what is in the coffins, which might be Severian's, is the power\nof the Claw, or more exactly the power of Severian. Why is it some\n\"resurrect\" right away, while the dead soldier took days, and some can't\ncome back at all? I propose that Severian never bring anyone back from the\ndead, just sparks life into corpses. This is because of a built in system\ninside his own robot clone. This also explains his prefect memory, he's a\nrobot.\n\nDorcas was in suspended animation. The soldier killed by the nocturnes had\njust died a moment before. Thus their brains were fresh, the networks of\nmemory didn't need to be reconstructed. The dead soldier, Miles, had been\ndead for quite some dead. It took the new conscience that Severian gave it\na while to assimilate its bodies memories.\n\nOf course, sometimes a body is too damaged to repair and install a new\nmind. This is true of Severian's son Severian, and all the times Severian\nsees a dead body when he wakes up after death. At that point, one of the\nstored robot clones is brought back and activated by Severian via the\nCorridors of Time.\n\nThus, I propose, there are six Severian. The first being a human born of a\nmother, who may or may not have become Autarch, but does get access to the\nCorridors of Time. He constructs the five robot clones Severians, so he can\ngourd them into becoming Autarch's that will past Yesod's trail. The two\nSeverians Severian talks about, are himself and the first robot clone\nattempt. Their two lives merge together, and make up the memories that are\nBook of the New Sun.\n\n\nThe Citadel of course is really just a starport. The mausoleum is really a\nrobot storage facility. It doesn't matter who constructed it, but a\nSeverian most certainly stocked it\n\nSorry if that was long winded, I have a lot of New Sun ideas!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B443E7.7010709@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-20T13:19:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<3E445D37-D940-45B8-AE4A-FD574A1082D6@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2013 11:39 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 19/12/2013, ?s 13:47, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But where the Atrium is reached by traveling through an underworld, increasing the sense of temporal isolation, the mausoleum is a place Severian visits almost daily that seems well connected to the world by seasons and wildlife. It has a mood of sleepy stasis to it, but then it's Severian's \"spirit home\" in a way, where he has nothing to do but watch and wait. And of course he remembers everything he ever saw there.\n\nThe necropolis is after all guarded, though we see how poorly against a determined attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet, am I mistaken or no one else, besides Sev, ever drops by the mausoleum? Does any other character show any sign of knowing that the place even exists?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so, but that is after all part of the attraction. There is \ncertainly a subtext going on, but it's already been identified, more or \nless.\n\nSince he uses no special \"key\" (i.e., no secret passage or spell or \ntrick) to get in, if only he has access then he himself is the key, \nwhich would make Severian himself as magical as the hidden mausoleum. \nIt's possible that only he can see it, but\n(a) there's no indication of or ready explanation for this, nor does \nanything like it ever happen again (though he is often visited by people \nno one else sees, but then he is always alone when this happens)\n(b) the wildlife find it easily enough\n(c) the Necropolis is a vast, ruined place where no one goes except \napprentices, grave robbers, and funeral parties.\nFinally, there would be no purpose to it. The *plot *doesn't need \nSeverian there alive, nor does it need the mausoleum to be a secret. We \ndon't know how dead Severians get there anyway (or live clones get in or \nout) and this theory doesn't explain that.\n\nAgain, all Severians could be eidolons with no real physical \nlimitations. But then the mausoleum itself becomes merely the dream of a \nghost, and doesn't need time dislocation to rationalize its minor features.\n\nAnother point that just occurred to me. We do need to follow Occam's \nRazor. Therefore,\n---Any theory that proposes something as complicated as, say, a \nlaboratory hidden in time that has cloning and mind-control technology \nand that grows and programs cloned puppets to insert them into \nmanipulated time streams is just too complicated.\n---A coffin-corpse mausoleum theory only needs to explain how corpses \nget in. A clone-storage mausoleum theory needs to explain not only how \nthey got in, but how they will get out. And besides, any mechanism that \ncould do both probably would not need clone storage in the first place." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B4514F.2030106@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-20T14:16:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2013 12:21 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI don't personally see how Severian would ever be a clone. He *is* an\naquastor duplicate for two stretches of URTH's narrative, as demonstrated\nby the dead material bodies left behind. That could account for two of the\nclosed coffins, the third might be from his drowning/not drowning at the\nopening of SHADOW. He records Juturna saving him, but perhaps she lifted\nhis clinically dead body from the murk into the light where the White\nFountain empowered his gift.\n\nAquastored - fall on Ship, killed by Stone Villagers\n\nself-raised - avern duel and earthquake in the citadel, possibly drowning\nin Gyoll\n\nplease fill in any others, it's late here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the Ship, he clearly leaves his ruined body behind, so only that and \nthe stoning should count as deaths. But since 5 is the Number of Man, it \nworks best for there to be exactly four \"real\" deaths and for the final \ndeath to be transcended. I'm still not sure how to count them to get \nfour---whether our Severian is #4 or he is #2 with bonus lives. Are \naquastorized Severians and re-cycled Severians on the same level---are \nthe coffins for murdered Severians or only for judged and discarded \nSeverians?\n\nA simpler idea than the Severian-iteration theory may be that the five \ncoffins represent five chances for a single Severian. After all, what's \nthe real difference between resurrecting him/letting him resurrect \nhimself and starting him all over? Death is surely a lesser error than \nnot passing the Test, but it's impossible to gauge how much effort is \nrequired from the puppetmasters for each level of intervention if they \ncontrol all time and space.\n\nFinally, if Ossipago, Famulimus, and Barbatus did build the mausoleum, \nknowing how many coffins were needed (give or take one), then the \nmausoleum would already be thematically associated not only with deep \ntime but also with backwards time, i.e., premonition. And that's what \nSeverian feels there, although not as explicitly as in the tunnels under \nthe Atrium. But the mausoleum itself is traveling forward, not backward, \nand so the three occupied coffins are not lives to come but lives \nalready expended. Our Severian must be the ultimate or penultimate one, \nor there is no point in telling his story." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Thayer", "address": "michael.o.thayer at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-20T17:01:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B4514F.2030106@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: It's possible that only he can see it, but . . . (b) the\nwildlife find it easily enough . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My reading is quite the contrary one. We are told that the wildlife cannot\n\"hear\" or \"scent\" Severian as he watches them through the mausloeum window,\nthough some animals come \"two cubits from [his] face.\" Shadow, 12." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Another point that just occurred to me. We do need to\nfollow Occam's Razor. Therefore," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "---Any theory that proposes something as complicated as, say, a\nlaboratory hidden in time that has cloning and mind-control technology\nand that grows and programs cloned puppets to insert them into\nmanipulated time streams is just too complicated.\n---A coffin-corpse mausoleum theory only needs to explain how corpses\nget in. A clone-storage mausoleum theory needs to explain not only how\nthey got in, but how they will get out. And besides, any mechanism that\ncould do both probably would not need clone storage in the first place.\n\nI agree with your method. The only question is whether a hidden clone\nlaboratory dislocated in time is the simplest explanation. For instance,\nit would be a mistake to conclude that the Citadel is a traditional citadel\nrather than a spaceport just because the citadel is the simpler explanation\nof the two. In tBotnS, a castle tower is not a castle tower at all, but\na space rocket. A poor traveler is not a poor traveler, but a marooned\nrobot from the distant past with a human face grafted onto his metallic\nbody. A two-headed demonic monster is not a two-headed demonic monster,\nbut a former intergalactic hegemon who has had his head surgically grafted\nonto another's body to extend his own biological viability. Witches (a\nwitch at least, the Cumaen) and sirens (Juturna and the other undines) are\nnot witches and sirens, but space aliens meddling in human affairs. A\ndivine prophet from the past is not a divine prophet from the past, but a\nmachine-projected time-traveler recently returned from beyond this solar\nsystem. The entire conceit of the novel is that the setting appears to be\nthat of ancient myth and medieval high fantasy, but it is in fact a far\nfuture hyper-techno space age. In light of this, I think we should\nexercise caution in slicing away, Occam-style, the possibility that a\nmausoleum is something more than a mausoleum, especially where that\nmausoleum is imbued with such import and strangeness." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B47F18.7060909@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Paul Watson", "address": "lazarus at lazaruscorporation.co.uk" }, "date": "2013-12-20T17:32:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "De-lurking to say that I've been reading this thread and was playing \naround with two other theories about the mausoleum. I don't think \nthey're right, but I'll put them out here for what they're worth:\n\nFirst, it's a family mausoleum, but I can't get that one to fit (too \nmany of Severian's relatives still alive during the BotNS to account for \n2 open coffins).\n\nThe other theory is that - since mausolea were typically tombs for \ndeceased leaders of importance, then the mausoleum is built for the \nbodies of those brave autarchs who chose to face the test on Yesod. Two \ncoffins are open and unoccupied (Severian's and the current Autarch) \nbecause those two are still alive. Ymar was the last autarch before the \ncurrent one to be tested, so his body is in one of the closed coffins, \nleaving two other Autarchs prior to Ymar who were tested and failed in \nthe other 2 closed coffins.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 20/12/13 17:01, Michael Thayer wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: It's possible that only he can see it, but . . . " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(b) the wildlife find it easily enough . . .\nMy reading is quite the contrary one. We are told that the \nwildlife cannot \"hear\" or \"scent\" Severian as he watches them through \nthe mausloeum window, though some animals come \"two cubits from [his] \nface.\" Shadow, 12." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Another point that just occurred to me. We do need \nto follow Occam's Razor. Therefore,\n---Any theory that proposes something as complicated as, say, a\nlaboratory hidden in time that has cloning and mind-control technology\nand that grows and programs cloned puppets to insert them into\nmanipulated time streams is just too complicated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---A coffin-corpse mausoleum theory only needs to explain how corpses\nget in. A clone-storage mausoleum theory needs to explain not only how\nthey got in, but how they will get out. And besides, any mechanism that\ncould do both probably would not need clone storage in the first place.\nI agree with your method. The only question is whether a hidden clone \nlaboratory dislocated in time is the simplest explanation. For \ninstance, it would be a mistake to conclude that the Citadel is a \ntraditional citadel rather than a spaceport just because the citadel \nis the simpler explanation of the two. In tBotnS, a castle tower is \nnot a castle tower at all, but a space rocket. A poor traveler is not \na poor traveler, but a marooned robot from the distant past with \na human face grafted onto his metallic body. A two-headed demonic \nmonster is not a two-headed demonic monster, but a former \nintergalactic hegemon who has had his head surgically grafted \nonto another's body to extend his own biological viability. Witches \n(a witch at least, the Cumaen) and sirens (Juturna and the other \nundines) are not witches and sirens, but space aliens meddling in \nhuman affairs. A divine prophet from the past is not a divine prophet \nfrom the past, but a machine-projected time-traveler recently returned \nfrom beyond this solar system. The entire conceit of the novel is \nthat the setting appears to be that of ancient myth and medieval high \nfantasy, but it is in fact a far future hyper-techno space age. In \nlight of this, I think we should exercise caution in slicing away, \nOccam-style, the possibility that a mausoleum is something more than a \nmausoleum, especially where that mausoleum is imbued with such import \nand strangeness.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B49EDC.60801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-20T19:47:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/20/2013 12:01 PM, Michael Thayer wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff: It's possible that only he can see it, but . . . " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(b) the wildlife find it easily enough . . .\nMy reading is quite the contrary one. We are told that the \nwildlife cannot \"hear\" or \"scent\" Severian as he watches them through \nthe mausloeum window, though some animals come \"two cubits from [his] \nface.\" Shadow, 12." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I actually don't think that is terribly remarkable---that's how blinds \nwork. They can't see him if he doesn't move and Severian himself seems \nin a kind of stasis. But that is a good point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Another point that just occurred to me. We do need \nto follow Occam's Razor. Therefore,\n---Any theory that proposes something as complicated as, say, a\nlaboratory hidden in time that has cloning and mind-control technology\nand that grows and programs cloned puppets to insert them into\nmanipulated time streams is just too complicated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---A coffin-corpse mausoleum theory only needs to explain how corpses\nget in. A clone-storage mausoleum theory needs to explain not only how\nthey got in, but how they will get out. And besides, any mechanism that\ncould do both probably would not need clone storage in the first place.\nI agree with your method. The only question is whether a hidden clone \nlaboratory dislocated in time is the simplest explanation. For \ninstance, it would be a mistake to conclude that the Citadel is a \ntraditional citadel rather than a spaceport just because the citadel \nis the simpler explanation of the two. In tBotnS, a castle tower is \nnot a castle tower at all, but a space rocket. A poor traveler is not \na poor traveler, but a marooned robot from the distant past with \na human face grafted onto his metallic body. A two-headed demonic \nmonster is not a two-headed demonic monster, but a former \nintergalactic hegemon who has had his head surgically grafted \nonto another's body to extend his own biological viability. Witches \n(a witch at least, the Cumaen) and sirens (Juturna and the other \nundines) are not witches and sirens, but space aliens meddling in \nhuman affairs. A divine prophet from the past is not a divine prophet \nfrom the past, but a machine-projected time-traveler recently returned \nfrom beyond this solar system. The entire conceit of the novel is \nthat the setting appears to be that of ancient myth and medieval high \nfantasy, but it is in fact a far future hyper-techno space age. In \nlight of this, I think we should exercise caution in slicing away, \nOccam-style, the possibility that a mausoleum is something more than a \nmausoleum, especially where that mausoleum is imbued with such import \nand strangeness." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a very good point. There's no doubt that things are named in BNA \naccording to what we might call their \"essential\" nature, not their \n\"true\" nature. Yes, the Citadel was a spaceport, and yes, the mausoleum \ncould be other than a mausoleum. It could have been built as something \nelse before there was a necropolis there. (It could have been the hut of \nApu-Punchau.) The coffins could be other than coffins, although they are \ntoo large to be creches. Severian does not notice any difference between \nit and other buildings there, and it is described as a simple stone \nbuilding:\n\nRather, it was the smallness of the room, the thick walls of masonry, \nand the single, narrow\n\nwindow with its one bar, together with the faithless door (so massively \nheavy) that remained eternally ajar.\n\n\nBut if it predated the necropolis, we need to explain why was it not \ndesecrated, whether as a tomb or a cloning storage facility. Severian \nrefers to it as \"violated\" and calls the three closed ones \"intact\" as \nthough all five once contained corpses, a natural assumption that would \nnot be subverted by the three-Sevs-out theory but that IS subverted by \nthe three-Sevs-in theory.\n\nAnd if it was not the first building, then why was it placed deep in a \nnecropolis? Making it hidden certainly takes care of these problems, but \nif it is a hidden zone, it could have been hidden anywhere. It doesn't \nneed to be isolated.\n\nMoving on, why are the coffins made as bronze sarcophagi molded to \nSeverian's features like those in medieval churches? That might be good \ncamouflage against people fearing vampires (although they would be just \nas likely to think a sleeping clone a saint), but not against people who \nrob mausoleums. If the place is hidden to all but Severian, why are they \ndisguised at all?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B49F7A.6000602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-20T19:50:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B47F18.7060909@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2013 12:32 PM, Paul Watson wrote:\nThe other theory is that - since mausolea were typically tombs for \ndeceased leaders of importance, then the mausoleum is built for the \nbodies of those brave autarchs who chose to face the test on Yesod. \nTwo coffins are open and unoccupied (Severian's and the current \nAutarch) because those two are still alive. Ymar was the last autarch \nbefore the current one to be tested, so his body is in one of the \nclosed coffins, leaving two other Autarchs prior to Ymar who were \ntested and failed in the other 2 closed coffins" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's possible. Severian can only see the features of one that is loose \nand that he cleaned, but does not mention the other one. The blazon \ncould depict the arms of the Space Autarchs. It does actually fit the \n\"family\" aspect better than three bronze Severians." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B4E4CA.7060504@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2013-12-21T00:46:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B47F18.7060909@lazaruscorporation.co.uk>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2013 11:32 AM, Paul Watson wrote:\nThe other theory is that - since mausolea were typically tombs for\ndeceased leaders of importance, then the mausoleum is built for the\nbodies of those brave autarchs who chose to face the test on Yesod. Two\ncoffins are open and unoccupied (Severian's and the current Autarch)\nbecause those two are still alive. Ymar was the last autarch before the\ncurrent one to be tested, so his body is in one of the closed coffins,\nleaving two other Autarchs prior to Ymar who were tested and failed in\nthe other 2 closed coffins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd always presumed that Ymar was the first autarch, since he was \npresent at the end of Typhon's reign, but I just went over all mentions \nof his name in volumes I-V and it's not specified that he's the first \nautarch, just the first one given by name. In fact, Sev claims there are \nmental predecessors extending back into the Age of Myth, leading me to \nwonder what that could possibly mean since it's before the likely advent \nof the alzabo.\n\n\nBut while the mausoleum might have been inserted to symbolize the \nsuccession (which does definitely end with Sev in the same flood that \nslams the mausoleum door closed), I don't think anyone in the \nCommonwealth would have literally built it with respect for the persons \nof deceased Autarchs in mind, considering it's kind of chintzy for the \nnumerous untried ones to get their own Rushmores just the same." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B51C5A.5030706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-21T04:43:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B4E4CA.7060504@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/20/2013 7:46 PM, Jeffery Wilson wrote:\n\nBut while the mausoleum might have been inserted to symbolize the \nsuccession (which does definitely end with Sev in the same flood that \nslams the mausoleum door closed), I don't think anyone in the \nCommonwealth would have literally built it with respect for the \npersons of deceased Autarchs in mind, considering it's kind of chintzy \nfor the numerous untried ones to get their own Rushmores just the same. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, considering the winner gets to be a god, it's not unreasonable to \ngive them a bronze medal, so to speak. And perhaps it's for their own \ngood to be interred someplace out of the way, though surely few \nNessusites would give a damn either way. Inire could do it, as their \nfriend and sponsor. But I think it's all unlikely." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B816A3.90104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-23T10:55:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B443E7.7010709@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote (20-12-2013 13:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 12/19/2013 11:39 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 19/12/2013, ?s 13:47, David Stockhoff escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But where the Atrium is reached by traveling through an underworld, increasing the sense of temporal isolation, the mausoleum is a place Severian visits almost daily that seems well connected to the world by seasons and wildlife. It has a mood of sleepy stasis to it, but then it's Severian's \"spirit home\" in a way, where he has nothing to do but watch and wait. And of course he remembers everything he ever saw there.\n\nThe necropolis is after all guarded, though we see how poorly against a determined attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yet, am I mistaken or no one else, besides Sev, ever drops by the mausoleum? Does any other character show any sign of knowing that the place even exists?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so, but that is after all part of the attraction. There is\ncertainly a subtext going on, but it's already been identified, more or less.\n\nSince he uses no special \"key\" (i.e., no secret passage or spell or trick)\nto get in, if only he has access then he himself is the key, which would\nmake Severian himself as magical as the hidden mausoleum. It's possible that\nonly he can see it, but\n(a) there's no indication of or ready explanation for this, nor does\nanything like it ever happen again (though he is often visited by people no\none else sees, but then he is always alone when this happens)\n(b) the wildlife find it easily enough\n(c) the Necropolis is a vast, ruined place where no one goes except\napprentices, grave robbers, and funeral parties.\nFinally, there would be no purpose to it. The *plot *doesn't need Severian\nthere alive, nor does it need the mausoleum to be a secret. We don't know\nhow dead Severians get there anyway (or live clones get in or out) and this\ntheory doesn't explain that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking rather along the lines that the mausoleum be somehow \ndisplaced from normal space/time, hence accessible only to one able to go \nsuch places." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again, all Severians could be eidolons with no real physical limitations.\nBut then the mausoleum itself becomes merely the dream of a ghost, and\ndoesn't need time dislocation to rationalize its minor features.\n\nAnother point that just occurred to me. We do need to follow Occam's Razor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Therefore,\n---Any theory that proposes something as complicated as, say, a laboratory\nhidden in time that has cloning and mind-control technology and that grows\nand programs cloned puppets to insert them into manipulated time streams is\njust too complicated.\n---A coffin-corpse mausoleum theory only needs to explain how corpses get\nin. A clone-storage mausoleum theory needs to explain not only how they got\nin, but how they will get out. And besides, any mechanism that could do both\nprobably would not need clone storage in the first place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingo.\n\nMy impression is that it serves some thematic or decorative, rather than \nplot, purpose." } ] }, { "message_id": "<1387831757.12760.YahooMailNeo@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2013-12-23T20:49:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B816A3.90104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"I was thinking rather along the lines that the mausoleum be somehow \ndisplaced from normal space/time, hence accessible only to one able to go \nsuch places.\"\n\n\nGood point. These questions come to mind: Was Severian able to do this as a child, before the Gyoll incident for example, or the Claw? Is he able to go sideways as well as forward/backward? Do such time-places exist in BNS?\n\n\"My impression is that it serves some thematic or decorative, rather than \nplot, purpose.\"\n\nI agree. We just need to be able to figure out what is meant by it, which suggests its meaning should be pretty clear or else the symbol is wasted. It doesn't, by itself, demand five Severians, or predestination, or time travel, but in the light of 5HC and later clues, those things become definite and ought to be sufficient to solve the puzzle. \n\n\n\n\n\nOn Monday, December 23, 2013 2:43 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n \nDavid Stockhoff wrote (20-12-2013 13:19):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 12/19/2013 11:39 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No dia 19/12/2013, ?s 13:47, David Stockhoff? escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "But where the Atrium is reached by traveling through an underworld, increasing the sense of temporal isolation, the mausoleum is a place Severian visits almost daily that seems well connected to the world by seasons and wildlife. It has a mood of sleepy stasis to it, but then it's Severian's \"spirit home\" in a way, where he has nothing to do but watch and wait. And of course he remembers everything he ever saw there.\n\nThe necropolis is after all guarded, though we see how poorly against a determined attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yet, am I mistaken or no one else, besides Sev, ever drops by the mausoleum? Does any other character show any sign of knowing that the place even exists?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so, but that is after all part of the attraction. There is\ncertainly a subtext going on, but it's already been identified, more or less.\n\nSince he uses no special \"key\" (i.e., no secret passage or spell or trick)\nto get in, if only he has access then he himself is the key, which would\nmake Severian himself as magical as the hidden mausoleum. It's possible that\nonly he can see it, but\n(a) there's no indication of or ready explanation for this, nor does\nanything like it ever happen again (though he is often visited by people no\none else sees, but then he is always alone when this happens)\n(b) the wildlife find it easily enough\n(c) the Necropolis is a vast, ruined place where no one goes except\napprentices, grave robbers, and funeral parties.\nFinally, there would be no purpose to it. The *plot *doesn't need Severian\nthere alive, nor does it need the mausoleum to be a secret. We don't know\nhow dead Severians get there anyway (or live clones get in or out) and this\ntheory doesn't explain that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was thinking rather along the lines that the mausoleum be somehow \ndisplaced from normal space/time, hence accessible only to one able to go \nsuch places." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Again, all Severians could be eidolons with no real physical limitations.\nBut then the mausoleum itself becomes merely the dream of a ghost, and\ndoesn't need time dislocation to rationalize its minor features.\n\nAnother point that just occurred to me. We do need to follow Occam's Razor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Therefore,\n---Any theory that proposes something as complicated as, say, a laboratory\nhidden in time that has cloning and mind-control technology and that grows\nand programs cloned puppets to insert them into manipulated time streams is\njust too complicated.\n---A coffin-corpse mausoleum theory only needs to explain how corpses get\nin. A clone-storage mausoleum theory needs to explain not only how they got\nin, but how they will get out. And besides, any mechanism that could do both\nprobably would not need clone storage in the first place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bingo.\n\nMy impression is that it serves some thematic or decorative, rather than \nplot, purpose.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Gillingham", "address": "charlesgillingham at gmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-24T09:07:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<1387831757.12760.YahooMailNeo@web121606.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why its necessary for the mausoleum to be out of time. If the\n\"coffins\" are suspended animation chambers for clones, then those that walk\nthe Corridors of Time could activate a clone whenever they choose. It is\nimportant how many \"coffins\" are open, just because in Severian's current\nliner time, only another clone is active. This means the other's of himself\nhe meets are from other coffins, but only opened after he saw them as a\nchild.\n\nThe reason the mausoleum isn't molested is simple: the Autarch is in on the\nSeverian scheme. Autarch set up a secret guard on the mausoleum to keep\neveryone but child Severian, or quantum Severian, out. He, like everyone\nelse, was manipulating Severian from childhood, he was just as in on\nSeverian eating Thecla as Votalus was. Severian visited the Autarch's\nbrothel after Thecla was taken, but before she committed suicide. So he\nlied later in Citadel about not knowing she was captive. This all shows the\nAutarch was always aware of what was transpiring in the necropolis, and\nguarded it from interlopers." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2013-12-24T14:21:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: My impression is that it serves some thematic or decorative, \nrather than plot, purpose. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can agree somewhat, while recognizing that speculation on specifics is part of the fun\nof participating on this board for many of us.\n\nWolfe has stated that there are mysteries in his work for which there is no intended\nanswer provided. To the most science-minded, this begs the question- \"Then why put it \nin?\"\n\nBut for the more literary minded, there is an understanding that in the arts there\ncan be the intention of reaching past logic and reason and making an appeal directly \nto the sub-conscious or emotional level of the reader. Sometimes it is the question\nnot the answer which has the meaning.\n\nGiven the subliminal emotional content which may be found in mausoleums, coffins and\nfamily crests, it may have been Wolfe's only intention with this section to appeal\nto the part of his reader's psyche which responds to such imagery.\n\nOn the other hand, as I mentioned in another post, at the end of RTTW, the characters\nnot only visit Urth and Severian, they visit a mausoleum in the necropolis. I suppose \nit could be explained as purely decorative bookends for 12 volume series. \n\nBut I find this RTTW episode to be a personal message from Wolfe that there is significant, \npreviously unsolved meaning to Severian's mausoleum, much as UotNS provides us a Ship, an\nAngel and a Flood to explain previously unsolved hints in the first four books. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<52B9DFD6.70500@irit.fr>", "from": { "name": "Sergei SOLOVIEV", "address": "soloviev at irit.fr" }, "date": "2013-12-24T19:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Five Severians - Severian-as-Clone", "in_reply_to": "<52B816A3.90104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a remark:\n\nwhat David says is not exactly so:\n\n(a) .... (though he is often visited by people no\none else sees, but then he is always alone when this happens)\n\nRemember the scene from \"Return to the Whorl\" when Horn/Silk visit the \n\"Red Sun Whorl\" and the\nTower - Horn/Silk touches Master Gurloes who wants to punish Severian?\n\nMerry Christmas -\n\nSergei" } ] } ] }