{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6510", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6510, "subject": "Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "messages": 14, "voices": 8, "first": "2014-01-28T01:12:03+00:00", "last": "2014-02-02T05:27:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Goodwin", "address": "joncgoodwin at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-28T01:12:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recently re-read the Book of the New Sun, and I was wondering about this\ndetail: Typhon, after being awake for a while and having a look around\n(with his sensors I presume), tells Severian that there are powers in the\nsea who would rule now. But, he clarifies, we will rout their armies.\n\nHow can Typhon be so cavalier about the presence of telepathic monsters in\nthe sea? If his technology is still so much greater, why hasn't one of the\nAutarchs found and used it? Is it bluster on Typhon's part, or he does he\nhave some prior knowledge of the monsters? Was he the power who had the\nwoman with the black beans ripped to pieces (and they grew, slowly, into\nAbaia, etc. )\n\nAlso, why does Jonas know so much about Erebus, etc.\n\nI once, long ago, conjectured that Severian was lying about the whole\nevent, as I could never quite accept the breaking of Piaton's nose. If\nTyphon is a telepath himself (or has mind-control technology). . ." } ] }, { "message_id": "<52E740C8.7070803@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-01-28T05:31:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/27/2014 7:12 PM, Jonathan Goodwin wrote:\nHow can Typhon be so cavalier about the presence of telepathic monsters\nin the sea? If his technology is still so much greater, why hasn't one\nof the Autarchs found and used it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some they have, but as Sev notes in a few places, much of the gear is \npassword protected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, why does Jonas know so much about Erebus, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jonas is widely traveled on Urth, including some time travel before his \nshipwreck. Also, as part machine, he may have better memory than Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I once, long ago, conjectured that Severian was lying about the whole\nevent, as I could never quite accept the breaking of Piaton's nose. If\nTyphon is a telepath himself (or has mind-control technology). . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He may be like Asimov's The Mule, in that he can bind minds without \nnecessarily being able to read them." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-01-28T10:38:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jonathan Goodwin" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recently re-read the Book of the New Sun, and I was wondering about this\n detail: Typhon, after being awake for a while and having a look around\n(with his sensors I presume), tells Severian that there are powers in the\n sea who would rule now. But, he clarifies, we will rout their armies." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How can Typhon be so cavalier about the presence of telepathic monsters\n in the sea? If his technology is still so much greater, why hasn't one of\nthe Autarchs found and used it? Is it bluster on Typhon's part, or he does\n he have some prior knowledge of the monsters? Was he the power who\n had the woman with the black beans ripped to pieces (and they grew,\n slowly, into Abaia, etc. )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is not so much bluster as confidence. Typhon conquered many \nworlds in the past, and he is ready to start over again. If he fails, he \nfails, but he does not talk uselessly of failure. He has access to \ninformation technology at least. Perhaps he does not expect to control \nErebus etc. immediately, but to make a temporary alliance, and afterwards \ntake Urth from them.\n\nI don't think Typhon is portrayed as quite a god here, but as a sort of \npowerful 'force of nature' - a super villain, you might say, who can be \nbrought to heel only by the super-powered Severian.\n\nHe may or may not have been the executor of the woman who sowed the black \nbeans (which I too assume to be an origin myth for the sea monsters) but he \npresumably has some inkling of what they are and of their capabilities - the \nAutarchs seem to as well, though we are not told much.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<10A8927B-BBC6-4819-8EE4-B017E3B228EC@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-28T13:58:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 28/01/2014, ?s 01:12, Jonathan Goodwin escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I once, long ago, conjectured that Severian was lying about the whole event, as I could never quite accept the breaking of Piaton's nose. If Typhon is a telepath himself (or has mind-control technology). . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a while since I've read it, but does Severian not clarify to have relied on Typhon's instinct being quicker than the mind?\n\nI know I see people feel and do all sorts of things that are contrary to reason. Protecting oneself in a fight seems like a good context for it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Darrell Burgan", "address": "darrell.burgan at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-29T01:56:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find Typhon to be a fascinating character, but to be honest I feel he\ndoes not get enough narrative attention. He's obviously a key figure in the\nShort Sun series, but to me he seemed almost an afterthought in New Sun. I\nwould really welcome some additional literature from Wolfe exploring\nTyphon's world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI don't think Typhon is portrayed as quite a god here, but as a sort of\npowerful 'force of nature' - a super villain, you might say, who can be\nbrought to heel only by the super-powered Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "<36A1D820-CF43-4979-BAC6-F3FFF8C4D6D7@yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2014-01-29T21:59:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are a lot of biblical parallels (usually name references like Dorcas/tabitha) in Wolfe but that scene is probably the most direct riff he has ever done, offer for offer by Satan to Jesus. It is memorable but also unusually heavy handed for Wolfe- almost ironically so, I think, when we consider how many people Severian actually saves. It's also why having Silk be Typhon's heir (biological or otherwise) is so interesting. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 28, 2014, at 5:56 PM, Darrell Burgan wrote:\nI find Typhon to be a fascinating character, but to be honest I feel he does not get enough narrative attention. He's obviously a key figure in the Short Sun series, but to me he seemed almost an afterthought in New Sun. I would really welcome some additional literature from Wolfe exploring Typhon's world.\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think Typhon is portrayed as quite a god here, but as a sort of powerful 'force of nature' - a super villain, you might say, who can be brought to heel only by the super-powered Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E48E620-21D1-450D-A5CC-CFC41FDFD172@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-30T00:57:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "<36A1D820-CF43-4979-BAC6-F3FFF8C4D6D7@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 29/01/2014, ?s 21:59, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are a lot of biblical parallels (usually name references like Dorcas/tabitha) in Wolfe but that scene is probably the most direct riff he has ever done, offer for offer by Satan to Jesus. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And made at the top of a mountain looking at the world!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is memorable but also unusually heavy handed for Wolfe- almost ironically so, I think, when we consider how many people Severian actually saves. It's also why having Silk be Typhon's heir (biological or otherwise) is so interesting. \n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Jan 28, 2014, at 5:56 PM, Darrell Burgan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find Typhon to be a fascinating character, but to be honest I feel he does not get enough narrative attention. He's obviously a key figure in the Short Sun series, but to me he seemed almost an afterthought in New Sun. I would really welcome some additional literature from Wolfe exploring Typhon's world.\n\n\nOn Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 4:38 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nI don't think Typhon is portrayed as quite a god here, but as a sort of powerful 'force of nature' - a super villain, you might say, who can be brought to heel only by the super-powered Severian.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Darrell Burgan", "address": "darrell.burgan at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-31T04:37:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "<36A1D820-CF43-4979-BAC6-F3FFF8C4D6D7@yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know Severian is broadly considered to be a Christ figure, but to me that\nsymbolism goes only so far. Severian is also capable of acts of\nconsiderable violence and other deplorable acts, things that the Christ\nwould never do. Ironically I find Silk to be much more of a Christlike\nfigure in that regard. Severian did save the world, so he is definitely a\nmessiah figure, but he also killed almost everyone in the process. One of\nthe things I love about Wolfe is that his symbols are a patchwork. Rotate\nthe view 90 degrees and everything is different. It's one of the reasons I\ncan read his books again and again and never get bored." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:59 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThere are a lot of biblical parallels (usually name references like\nDorcas/tabitha) in Wolfe but that scene is probably the most direct riff he\nhas ever done, offer for offer by Satan to Jesus. It is memorable but also\nunusually heavy handed for Wolfe- almost ironically so, I think, when we\nconsider how many people Severian actually saves. It's also why having\nSilk be Typhon's heir (biological or otherwise) is so interesting." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-31T16:26:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Darrell Burgan wrote:\nI know Severian is broadly considered to be a Christ figure, but to me\nthat symbolism goes only so far. Severian is also capable of acts of\nconsiderable violence and other deplorable acts, things that the Christ\nwould never do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"We say Jesus was a carpenter, but the only thing we are told he actually\nmade was a whip.\"\n--Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ironically I find Silk to be much more of a Christlike figure in that\nregard.\n\nSilk is more of a Moses figure..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2014-01-31T16:57:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always felt that the symbols in New Sun were a bit more shifty than in some of his other work - Severian's ironic thoughts of the conciliator at a costume party, healing of the sick, stumbling three times in the cataract at Thrax from the weight of the sword as he heals, the Typhon temptation running almost line by line with the temptation in the wild, ... And yet sev not even being the one put on trial, not actually saving pretty much everyone we meet in the narrative but instead somehow contributing to their watery demise. The coin of Vodalus being fake, with all it import and weight, has always disturbed me - since it resonated as a symbol of the sun- why fake? more than just trust in vodalus' path being false faith, i think. The hell green turned into really does make a lot of that conciliator talk seem like conscious rhetoric on Sev's part meant to seem unconscious - a ruler insinuating but never stating divinity (in the first four volumes, anyway)\n\nThe biggest surprise to me on the first read was that the conciliator was not actually contiguous with Christ, because the rhetoric in shadow certainly suggested it- the texts Severian looks over as a young man with their saints and halos clearly catholic or orthodox in nature. \n\n Certainly Christ shows up in Silk's \"enlightenment\", though (which I think ultimately has a physical cause and is once again a man imitating another divinity and in so doing serving It)The voice of the outsider can speak through another man's voice, or through a man and his lover as he sets up his heir to follow out a plan that ultimately will not come to fruition as he (typhon/pas) intended. \n\nSent from my iPhone" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jan 31, 2014, at 9:26 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" wrote:\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Darrell Burgan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know Severian is broadly considered to be a Christ figure, but to me that symbolism goes only so far. Severian is also capable of acts of considerable violence and other deplorable acts, things that the Christ would never do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"We say Jesus was a carpenter, but the only thing we are told he actually made was a whip.\"\n--Gene Wolfe\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ironically I find Silk to be much more of a Christlike figure in that regard." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk is more of a Moses figure... \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-01-31T17:05:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly the \"Outsider,\" i.e. the God of Christianity, can and does use\nsuch things to further His plans. As Joseph says to his brothers, \"What you\nmeant for evil, God meant for good.\"\n\nThat the Conciliator is not Christ is clear in the text -- the\nTheoanthropos is a different person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI have always felt that the symbols in New Sun were a bit more shifty than\nin some of his other work - Severian's ironic thoughts of the conciliator\nat a costume party, healing of the sick, stumbling three times in the\ncataract at Thrax from the weight of the sword as he heals, the Typhon\ntemptation running almost line by line with the temptation in the wild, ...\nAnd yet sev not even being the one put on trial, not actually saving pretty\nmuch everyone we meet in the narrative but instead somehow contributing to\ntheir watery demise. The coin of Vodalus being fake, with all it import and\nweight, has always disturbed me - since it resonated as a symbol of the\nsun- why fake? more than just trust in vodalus' path being false faith, i\nthink. The hell green turned into really does make a lot of that\nconciliator talk seem like conscious rhetoric on Sev's part meant to seem\nunconscious - a ruler insinuating but never stating divinity (in the first\nfour volumes, anyway)\n\nThe biggest surprise to me on the first read was that the conciliator was\nnot actually contiguous with Christ, because the rhetoric in shadow\ncertainly suggested it- the texts Severian looks over as a young man with\ntheir saints and halos clearly catholic or orthodox in nature.\n\n Certainly Christ shows up in Silk's \"enlightenment\", though (which I\nthink ultimately has a physical cause and is once again a man imitating\nanother divinity and in so doing serving It)The voice of the outsider can\nspeak through another man's voice, or through a man and his lover as he\nsets up his heir to follow out a plan that ultimately will not come to\nfruition as he (typhon/pas) intended.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\nOn Jan 31, 2014, at 9:26 AM, \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nwrote:\n\n\n\n\nOn Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:37 PM, Darrell Burgan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I know Severian is broadly considered to be a Christ figure, but to me\nthat symbolism goes only so far. Severian is also capable of acts of\nconsiderable violence and other deplorable acts, things that the Christ\nwould never do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"We say Jesus was a carpenter, but the only thing we are told he actually\nmade was a whip.\"\n--Gene Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ironically I find Silk to be much more of a Christlike figure in that\nregard.\n\nSilk is more of a Moses figure..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2014-01-31T17:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, the first time I read it i understood the conciliator as contiguous with the agent of reconciliation (Christ, communion, confession) but that was the 80s and I was in the fourth grade. I am not certain that in the first four books the theoanthropos and the conciliator are really all that distinct, will have to pay attention to that when I read it again. \n\nSent from my iPhone" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Darrell Burgan", "address": "darrell.burgan at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-02-01T05:52:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, that's an awesome quote. I find it to be great fun that Wolfe mixes up\nhis symbolism a bit to keep the reader on her toes. One definitely has the\nsense that something of biblical proportions is happening throughout the\nSolar Labyrinth series, but one is damned if they can put their finger on\nexactly what it is. I love it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\"We say Jesus was a carpenter, but the only thing we are told he actually\nmade was a whip.\"\n--Gene Wolfe" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-02-02T05:27:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Typhon's Confidence (plus some other questions)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: There are a lot of biblical parallels \n(usually name references like Dorcas/tabitha) in Wolfe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Darrell Burgan: One definitely has the sense that something of \nbiblical proportions is happening throughout the Solar Labyrinth \nseries, but one is damned if they can put their finger on exactly \nwhat it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In my view, the trick is to observe that Wolfe uses as many, and\nprobably more, \"mythological\" references as Judeo-Christian\nreferences. Gleaning from some hints in Wolfe interviews, I take\nthis to mean that Wolfe does not think of Judeo-Christianity \nas evolving from a vacuum. The mythology of the pagan neighbors\nof the ancient Hebrews reflected their own beliefs which portrayed\nthe extant reality of the ancient world as much as the Bible does, \nalbeit with differently named, though often cognate characters \n(and events, like the Flood).\n\nThus if we are meant to understand Typhon's temptation of Severian\nas parallel to Satan's temptation of Christ, we should take a good\nanalytical look at Wolfe's choice in calling this character \"Typhon\".\n\nSurely the status of mythological Typhon as a dragon/snake monster\nis meant to connect to the satanic link of the Edenic serpent who\ntempts Eve. Moreover, the Greeks did consider Typhon as a rather \nsatanic being, especially in his cognate connection to the evil\nEgyptian deity, Typhon-Set. Then there is the fetal creature called the Mandragora.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonathan Goodwin: How can Typhon be so cavalier about the presence of>telepathic monsters in the sea?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find mythological Typhon's title as \"Father Of All Monsters\" to be explanatory for this issue. His confidence in his superiority over \nthese beings stems from the knowledge that he is their father.\n\nScylla is named in BotNS as a megatherian (by the caloyer of Saltus) \nand it would seem that Wolfe expected us to figure out the Typhon \nparentage to the megatherians just from that one small clue. \n\nHappily, he seems to have realized this was unfair to his readers and \nhe took pains to make it clear in Long and especially Short Sun that \nScylla is Typhon's daughter and that she finds expression in the \ngiant sea monster on Urth. Moreover I am convinced by the end of RttW, \nthat this Great Scylla monster of Urth is, in some fashion, also the \nsame being as Abaia, gender having no real meaning for such creatures. \n\nActually, having a singular identity does not have real meaning for\nsuch creatures either (as we see for Tzadkiel). Thus I suspect some of \nthe confusion between Abaia and Erebus is that they are actually \npartitions of the same original being.\n\nThere is even a mention, in Long Sun, of Pas' daughter Scylla having her \nown planet to rule somewhere. I think this mention is a reference to Scylla/Abaia/Erebus on Urth. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }