{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6525",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 6525,
    "subject": "Wolves",
    "messages": 7,
    "voices": 6,
    "first": "2014-04-11T13:50:09+00:00",
    "last": "2014-07-07T21:57:16+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<CAM3O41KaJWq-WVfBPu5uMExdx=dRLw69+9hShBntt8kthUG1Hw@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Andrew Mason",
        "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-04-11T13:50:09+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Neil Gaiman, I think, proposed the theory that in each of Wolfe's\nstories there is a wolf. I've been thinking about how this works out.\nIn some cases, of course, the wolves are quite open, while in others\nthey are hidden.\n\n_Cerberus_ has an open Wolf (the name of the Shadow Child when just\none is left) and, by general agreement, a hidden Wolfe.\n\n_New Sun_ has the story of the boy called Frog, brought up by wolves.\n\n_Soldier_ has a known werewolf, and possibly hidden ones as well.\n\n_The Sorcerer's House_ also has a known werewolf.\n\n_The Wizard Knight _ has nothing explicit so far as I can see. Could\nAble's miraculous dog really be a wolf?\n\nIn _Long Sun_ I think I may have found one. Captain Serval (Hyacinth's\nex-lover/estranged husband, depending who you believe) is named, I\nthink, only once in the main text - we know his name mostly from the\nglossaries - and is generally called just 'the captain'. Now, the\nserval is actually a feline animal, but its name derives from 'lobo\ncerval', meaning 'deer-like wolf'. Strikingly, he has a round chin and\na moustache.\n\nI have not found any in Short Sun, but I will keep on looking.\n\nHas anyone found any others?"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<CALL5m5aa3JBSJaG45a+oSL3BsSsoHE2mwDufxA9vAAg94PY+9Q@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Piotr Szczęsny",
        "address": "neternalz at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-04-11T14:14:30+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": "<CAM3O41KaJWq-WVfBPu5uMExdx=dRLw69+9hShBntt8kthUG1Hw@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
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          "kind": "text",
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          "text": "Also in The Land across we have open wolves - a pack in the forest if I\nremember correctly.\n11 kwi 2014 15:50 \"Andrew Mason\" <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> napisa?(a):"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Neil Gaiman, I think, proposed the theory that in each of Wolfe's\nstories there is a wolf. I've been thinking about how this works out.\nIn some cases, of course, the wolves are quite open, while in others\nthey are hidden.\n\n_Cerberus_ has an open Wolf (the name of the Shadow Child when just\none is left) and, by general agreement, a hidden Wolfe.\n\n_New Sun_ has the story of the boy called Frog, brought up by wolves.\n\n_Soldier_ has a known werewolf, and possibly hidden ones as well.\n\n_The Sorcerer's House_ also has a known werewolf.\n\n_The Wizard Knight _ has nothing explicit so far as I can see. Could\nAble's miraculous dog really be a wolf?\n\nIn _Long Sun_ I think I may have found one. Captain Serval (Hyacinth's\nex-lover/estranged husband, depending who you believe) is named, I\nthink, only once in the main text - we know his name mostly from the\nglossaries - and is generally called just 'the captain'. Now, the\nserval is actually a feline animal, but its name derives from 'lobo\ncerval', meaning 'deer-like wolf'. Strikingly, he has a round chin and\na moustache.\n\nI have not found any in Short Sun, but I will keep on looking.\n\nHas anyone found any others?\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<CAM0v-i5oK+3oUHgWvfTi8G0WUEGJr=omh55btZBeTe2g0K_hxQ@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Antonin Scriabin",
        "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-04-11T14:20:00+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": "<CAM3O41KaJWq-WVfBPu5uMExdx=dRLw69+9hShBntt8kthUG1Hw@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
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          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Let's see ...\n\nRex von Madadh in *Castleview *is a werewolf.  There is also a werewolf\n(Lupine) in *The Sorcerer's House. *Those are the two I can think of off\nthe top of my head.\n\n\nOn Fri, Apr 11, 2014 at 9:50 AM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "wrote:"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Neil Gaiman, I think, proposed the theory that in each of Wolfe's\nstories there is a wolf. I've been thinking about how this works out.\nIn some cases, of course, the wolves are quite open, while in others\nthey are hidden.\n\n_Cerberus_ has an open Wolf (the name of the Shadow Child when just\none is left) and, by general agreement, a hidden Wolfe.\n\n_New Sun_ has the story of the boy called Frog, brought up by wolves.\n\n_Soldier_ has a known werewolf, and possibly hidden ones as well.\n\n_The Sorcerer's House_ also has a known werewolf.\n\n_The Wizard Knight _ has nothing explicit so far as I can see. Could\nAble's miraculous dog really be a wolf?\n\nIn _Long Sun_ I think I may have found one. Captain Serval (Hyacinth's\nex-lover/estranged husband, depending who you believe) is named, I\nthink, only once in the main text - we know his name mostly from the\nglossaries - and is generally called just 'the captain'. Now, the\nserval is actually a feline animal, but its name derives from 'lobo\ncerval', meaning 'deer-like wolf'. Strikingly, he has a round chin and\na moustache.\n\nI have not found any in Short Sun, but I will keep on looking.\n\nHas anyone found any others?\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<0E9D0273-4413-4E9C-B212-2D340047C69B@yahoo.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at yahoo.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-04-11T14:49:21+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": "<CAM3O41KaJWq-WVfBPu5uMExdx=dRLw69+9hShBntt8kthUG1Hw@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Well \"each\" is such a all inclusive term.  Sometimes they are there, sometimes they aren't.  I think a more apt rationale for this is he is obsessed with names, representations, symbols... There is an essay in castle of days where he goes on about what several famous writers' names mean.  With such an obvious authorial symbol and a symbolist writer they creep in, but they aren't in everything. \n\nI think the first time I noticed it in my survey of the short fiction was the howling in the background of \"the mountains like mice\" but as I said it isn't in every story. \n\nThe long sun naming scheme is certainly influenced by the fact that he is named after an animal and his wife Rosemary a plant/seasoning\n\nSent from my iPhone"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Apr 11, 2014, at 6:50 AM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote:\nNeil Gaiman, I think, proposed the theory that in each of Wolfe's\nstories there is a wolf. I've been thinking about how this works out.\nIn some cases, of course, the wolves are quite open, while in others\nthey are hidden.\n\n_Cerberus_ has an open Wolf (the name of the Shadow Child when just\none is left) and, by general agreement, a hidden Wolfe.\n\n_New Sun_ has the story of the boy called Frog, brought up by wolves.\n\n_Soldier_ has a known werewolf, and possibly hidden ones as well.\n\n_The Sorcerer's House_ also has a known werewolf.\n\n_The Wizard Knight _ has nothing explicit so far as I can see. Could\nAble's miraculous dog really be a wolf?\n\nIn _Long Sun_ I think I may have found one. Captain Serval (Hyacinth's\nex-lover/estranged husband, depending who you believe) is named, I\nthink, only once in the main text - we know his name mostly from the\nglossaries - and is generally called just 'the captain'. Now, the\nserval is actually a feline animal, but its name derives from 'lobo\ncerval', meaning 'deer-like wolf'. Strikingly, he has a round chin and\na moustache.\n\nI have not found any in Short Sun, but I will keep on looking.\n\nHas anyone found any others?\n_______________________________________________"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<28cbab9e967ef3913842e134f073b30b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Jeff Wilson",
        "address": "jwilson at clueland.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-04-11T15:43:30+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": "<CAM3O41KaJWq-WVfBPu5uMExdx=dRLw69+9hShBntt8kthUG1Hw@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Fri, April 11, 2014 08:50, Andrew Mason wrote:\nNeil Gaiman, I think, proposed the theory that in each of Wolfe's\nstories there is a wolf. I've been thinking about how this works out."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "IIRC, he stated more strongly in the old GEnie days, that his first step\nin solving the mysteries of a Wolfe story is to find the figurative if not\nliteral Gene Wolfe *in* the story. This certainly worked for 5HC, though I\ndidn't particularly think the alzabo passed muster as a \"gene wolf\" in the\nsense Neil nominated it (it eats the family member by member) but as\ngenetically tampered furry pack predator  (its pack is on the inside),\nsure."
        },
        {
          "kind": "sig",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<CAM3O41Jm7dAWrsuvSX3h_COdt-ZRO+z4mZXYZN6zsDuZeVDCig@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Andrew Mason",
        "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-07-07T20:28:02+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": "<28cbab9e967ef3913842e134f073b30b.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Continuing this discussion from a while ago: I have just been reading _An\nEvil Guest_, and that contains one explicit werewolf, perhaps with\nsuggestions that there are also hidden ones.\n\nAlso - I thought I had posted this before, but I can't find it in the\narchive, so will repeat it: Marc's recent post on _Peace_ showed that there\nare wolves in that, in 'The Stag at Bay'.\n\nSo, we have wolves in:\nCerberus\nPeace\nNew Sun\nCastleview\nSoldier\nLong Sun (perhaps)\nThe Wizard Knight (perhaps)\nAn Evil Guest\nThe Sorcerer's House\nThe Land Across.\n\nI think it's likely that they are indeed everywhere, though I'm still\nworried about where they can be in _Short Sun_. They do seem to be becoming\nmore obvious in recent works, though. Is Wolfe putting them in  to fulfil\nGaiman's prediction? Or is he making them more blatant to save us the time\nand trouble spent in searching for the hidden wolf?"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<CAF1072x-j_BJWVh4LDNS-6ChuNKfT9t0+qetw-B3yDuotBPRbg@mail.gmail.com>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Marc Aramini",
        "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com"
      },
      "date": "2014-07-07T21:57:16+00:00",
      "subject": "(urth) Wolves",
      "in_reply_to": "<CAM3O41Jm7dAWrsuvSX3h_COdt-ZRO+z4mZXYZN6zsDuZeVDCig@mail.gmail.com>",
      "reply_link": "header",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I mean this really depends how tangential and desparate you want to get.\n Like Silhouette, which I am almost finished writing up, clearly has no\nwolves, as there are no animals on the space ship, but johann, our\nprotagonist, is called \"betrothed of fortune\" by another character (and the\nname Faust means fortunate or lucky) ... So the wolf in that story is\njohann Wolfgang goethe ... But really ... ... No wolves for all reasonable\nintents and purposes"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Monday, July 7, 2014, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote:\n\n\n\nContinuing this discussion from a while ago: I have just been reading _An\nEvil Guest_, and that contains one explicit werewolf, perhaps with\nsuggestions that there are also hidden ones.\n\nAlso - I thought I had posted this before, but I can't find it in the\narchive, so will repeat it: Marc's recent post on _Peace_ showed that there\nare wolves in that, in 'The Stag at Bay'.\n\nSo, we have wolves in:\nCerberus\nPeace\nNew Sun\nCastleview\nSoldier\nLong Sun (perhaps)\nThe Wizard Knight (perhaps)\nAn Evil Guest\nThe Sorcerer's House\nThe Land Across.\n\nI think it's likely that they are indeed everywhere, though I'm still\nworried about where they can be in _Short Sun_. They do seem to be becoming\nmore obvious in recent works, though. Is Wolfe putting them in  to fulfil\nGaiman's prediction? Or is he making them more blatant to save us the time\nand trouble spent in searching for the hidden wolf?"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}