{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6542", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6542, "subject": "So Where DID the Guard Go?", "messages": 16, "voices": 10, "first": "2014-05-01T21:48:00+00:00", "last": "2014-05-07T13:40:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Graham", "address": "cyfyguy at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-01T21:48:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard Go?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello folks, I've been reading the lists for ages- thanks for the help.\n I'm now one my second 'hard read' through BOTNS after half a dozen or so\n'casual reads' since its publication.\n\nI get tripped up on the fourth sentance.\n\nRoche indicates, \"The guard has gone\".\n\nThe popular discussion on this page has historically been \"Who asks, 'But\nwhy would the guard leave?' ?\" in the next paragraph. While that\ndiscussion is very useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing\nthe net from underneath his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any\nplace where those who have gone before have asked the more basic question:\n\n\"Yeah, where DID the guard go?\"\n\nThe obvious answer is that he's patrolling, a possibility supported by the\nfact that Vodalus fires his weapon, but never indicates at whom. The issue\nhowever is that our apprentices are surprised to see the guard gone. If\nleaving his post to patrol were common, why the confusion over his absence?\n\nV doesn't seemingly fire at the volunteers, the dialog between he and\nBadger and Thea support this, and only three of the volunteers (those\npursuing Eata) could have possibly arrived at the site before Sev anyway.\n\nSo where's the guard, and why did V fire his weapon?\n\n-WHG3" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-01T23:34:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard Go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William -\n\nI believe that this question is answered in the \"Short Sun\" trilogy. At\nleast tentatively." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:48 PM, William Graham wrote:\nHello folks, I've been reading the lists for ages- thanks for the help.\n I'm now one my second 'hard read' through BOTNS after half a dozen or so\n'casual reads' since its publication.\n\nI get tripped up on the fourth sentance.\n\nRoche indicates, \"The guard has gone\".\n\nThe popular discussion on this page has historically been \"Who asks, 'But\nwhy would the guard leave?' ?\" in the next paragraph. While that\ndiscussion is very useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing\nthe net from underneath his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any\nplace where those who have gone before have asked the more basic question:\n\n\"Yeah, where DID the guard go?\"\n\nThe obvious answer is that he's patrolling, a possibility supported by the\nfact that Vodalus fires his weapon, but never indicates at whom. The issue\nhowever is that our apprentices are surprised to see the guard gone. If\nleaving his post to patrol were common, why the confusion over his absence?\n\nV doesn't seemingly fire at the volunteers, the dialog between he and\nBadger and Thea support this, and only three of the volunteers (those\npursuing Eata) could have possibly arrived at the site before Sev anyway.\n\nSo where's the guard, and why did V fire his weapon?\n\n-WHG3\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Graham", "address": "cyfyguy at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-02T01:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard Go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL! It figures- four sentences in and I have to commit to reading\nanother thousand pages to get half an answer! That's Wolfe for ya!\n\n-WHG3" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWilliam -\n\nI believe that this question is answered in the \"Short Sun\" trilogy. At\nleast tentatively.\n\n\nOn Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:48 PM, William Graham wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello folks, I've been reading the lists for ages- thanks for the help.\n I'm now one my second 'hard read' through BOTNS after half a dozen or so\n'casual reads' since its publication.\n\nI get tripped up on the fourth sentance.\n\nRoche indicates, \"The guard has gone\".\n\nThe popular discussion on this page has historically been \"Who asks, 'But\nwhy would the guard leave?' ?\" in the next paragraph. While that\ndiscussion is very useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing\nthe net from underneath his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any\nplace where those who have gone before have asked the more basic question:\n\n\"Yeah, where DID the guard go?\"\n\nThe obvious answer is that he's patrolling, a possibility supported by\nthe fact that Vodalus fires his weapon, but never indicates at whom. The\nissue however is that our apprentices are surprised to see the guard gone.\n If leaving his post to patrol were common, why the confusion over his\nabsence?\n\nV doesn't seemingly fire at the volunteers, the dialog between he and\nBadger and Thea support this, and only three of the volunteers (those\npursuing Eata) could have possibly arrived at the site before Sev anyway.\n\nSo where's the guard, and why did V fire his weapon?\n\n-WHG3\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-02T20:22:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard Go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would you want it any other way?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On May 1, 2014 9:34 PM, \"William Graham\" wrote:\nLOL! It figures- four sentences in and I have to commit to reading\nanother thousand pages to get half an answer! That's Wolfe for ya!\n\n-WHG3\n\n\nOn Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "William -\n\nI believe that this question is answered in the \"Short Sun\" trilogy. At\nleast tentatively.\n\n\nOn Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:48 PM, William Graham wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Hello folks, I've been reading the lists for ages- thanks for the\nhelp. I'm now one my second 'hard read' through BOTNS after half a dozen\nor so 'casual reads' since its publication.\n\nI get tripped up on the fourth sentance.\n\nRoche indicates, \"The guard has gone\".\n\nThe popular discussion on this page has historically been \"Who asks,\n'But why would the guard leave?' ?\" in the next paragraph. While that\ndiscussion is very useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing\nthe net from underneath his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any\nplace where those who have gone before have asked the more basic question:\n\n\"Yeah, where DID the guard go?\"\n\nThe obvious answer is that he's patrolling, a possibility supported by\nthe fact that Vodalus fires his weapon, but never indicates at whom. The\nissue however is that our apprentices are surprised to see the guard gone.\n If leaving his post to patrol were common, why the confusion over his\nabsence?\n\nV doesn't seemingly fire at the volunteers, the dialog between he and\nBadger and Thea support this, and only three of the volunteers (those\npursuing Eata) could have possibly arrived at the site before Sev anyway.\n\nSo where's the guard, and why did V fire his weapon?\n\n-WHG3\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-05-03T10:35:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard Go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: William Graham" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roche indicates, \"The guard has gone\".\n\nThe popular discussion on this page has historically been \"Who asks, 'But \nwhy\nwould the guard leave?' ?\" in the next paragraph. While that discussion \nis very\n useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing the net from \nunderneath\n his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any place where those who \nhave\n gone before have asked the more basic question:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always just assumed that either he heard something (Vodalus) and went to \ninvestigate, or else Hildegrande (most likely) quietly disposed of him and \nmoved the corpse (or at least, the inert body).\n\nHe was expected to be at the gate, and wasn't there. But intruders were \ninside. That's as much of a Checkov's Gunshot as I need, even from Wolfe.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-04T20:34:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed\ntell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the\nanswer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_\nfar ahead. So we can still ask what his original intention was. (The\npresence of the citizen volunteers suggests that either the guard is quite\noften absent, or his presence is ineffective.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5366BB79.9000004@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2014-05-04T22:13:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After looking at the chapter again . . . my assumption has always been \nthat the guard was paid off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/4/2014 4:34 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\n\nI'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does \nindeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this \nwas not the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he \nwasn't planning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his \noriginal intention was. (The presence of the citizen volunteers \nsuggests that either the guard is quite often absent, or his presence \nis ineffective.)\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5366D285.8050108@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-05-04T23:51:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/4/2014 3:34 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\n\nI'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does\nindeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was\nnot the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't\nplanning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his original\nintention was. (The presence of the citizen volunteers suggests that\neither the guard is quite often absent, or his presence is ineffective.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember the saying about 5 buildings per living inhabitant of Nessus; \nhow many of those 5 building's former inhabitants are now interred \nsomewhere at the necropolis? That's a lot of graveyard per guard." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2FF846E5-615F-450C-A190-9D8511112652@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T01:16:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 04/05/2014, ?s 21:34, Andrew Mason escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his original intention was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But why would the author not insert his original intention into the latter book?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53670044.6080408@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2014-05-05T03:06:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "<5366D285.8050108@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 5/4/2014 7:51 PM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com wrote:\nOn 5/4/2014 3:34 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does\nindeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was\nnot the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't\nplanning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his original\nintention was. (The presence of the citizen volunteers suggests that\neither the guard is quite often absent, or his presence is \nineffective.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Remember the saying about 5 buildings per living inhabitant of Nessus; \nhow many of those 5 building's former inhabitants are now interred \nsomewhere at the necropolis? That's a lot of graveyard per guard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T05:53:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Wolfe re-read New Sun in preparation for writing Short Sun and thought\nshoot ... where the heck did that guard go?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Andrew Mason\nwrote:\n\n\nI'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed\ntell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the\nanswer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_\nfar ahead. So we can still ask what his original intention was. (The\npresence of the citizen volunteers suggests that either the guard is quite\noften absent, or his presence is ineffective.)\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<21E72F75BAB842C3BD9A57EC0C53A0E6@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T14:54:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed \ntell us\nwhere the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the answer \nWolfe\nhad in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_ far ahead.\nSo we can still ask what his original intention was. (The presence of the \ncitizen\n volunteers suggests that either the guard is quite often absent, or his\npresence is ineffective.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us? I can't think of anything \nin _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth.\n\nThere are references in _Return to the Whorl_, and even a visit to the \nNecropolis. But that must have been later, as Severian already had \nTriskele.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<02E316B6-E9ED-48AC-BB96-502479E49F42@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-06T09:33:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "<21E72F75BAB842C3BD9A57EC0C53A0E6@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 05/05/2014, ?s 15:54, \"Gerry Quinn\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed tell us\nwhere the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the answer Wolfe\nhad in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_ far ahead.\nSo we can still ask what his original intention was. (The presence of the citizen\nvolunteers suggests that either the guard is quite often absent, or his\npresence is ineffective.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us? I can't think of anything in _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth.\n\nThere are references in _Return to the Whorl_, and even a visit to the Necropolis. But that must have been later, as Severian already had Triskele." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm one of those eagerly waiting for a reply." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-06T15:06:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "<02E316B6-E9ED-48AC-BB96-502479E49F42@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nAfter looking at the chapter again . . . my assumption has always been\nthat the guard was paid off." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suppose that's actually compatible with the _Short Sun_ explanation; if\nVodalus had paid the guard to leave his post, he might have treated the\narrival of the Rajan and party as a good excuse to do so. (So no actual\nchange of mind needs to be posited, even though Wolfe wasn't actually\nplanning _Short Sun_ when he wrote the original scene.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOkay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us? I can't think of\nanything\nin _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth.\n\nThere are references in _Return to the Whorl_, and even a visit to the\nNecropolis. But that must have been later, as Severian already had\nTriskele." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IGJ Chapter 21, 'The Red Sun': the Rajan, Fava, Mora, Hide, Rigoglio and\nsome extras travel to Urth, initially to Rigoglio's old house - from there\nthey go to the river, and finally end up at the Bear Tower (escorted by a\nguard who has left his post), thus setting things up for the Rajan's later\ntrips to the river and to the Citadel in RTTW. Severian does not appear in\nthis episode; we have to wait for RTTW to meet him. Some people, though,\nwhen the book first came out, noted the relation of the episode with the\nfirst scene of _New Sun_, and hypothesised that the Rajan has just missed\nSeverian, a theory confirmed in the next book when they do meet." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-05-07T12:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us? I can't think of \nanything\nin _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IGJ Chapter 21, 'The Red Sun'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah right, that figures.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-07T13:40:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) So Where DID the Guard go?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am struck by a silly music video. Recall the 80's. Soft Cell. Their\nwonderful duo of \"Tainted Love\" backed into \"Where Did Our Love Go?\".\n\nBaby, baby\nWhere did the Guard go?\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Andrew Mason\n\n Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us? I can't think of >\nanything\nin _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " IGJ Chapter 21, 'The Red Sun'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah right, that figures.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }