Subject: (urth) So Where DID the Guard Go?

From: William Graham <cyfyguy at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 21:48:00 +0000

Hello folks,  I've been reading the lists for ages-  thanks for the help.
 I'm now one my second 'hard read' through BOTNS after half a dozen or so
'casual reads' since its publication.

I get tripped up on the fourth sentance.

Roche indicates, "The guard has gone".

The popular discussion on this page has historically been "Who asks, 'But
why would the guard leave?' ?"  in the next paragraph.  While that
discussion is very useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing
the net from underneath his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any
place where those who have gone before have asked the more basic question:

"Yeah, where DID the guard go?"

The obvious answer is that he's patrolling, a possibility supported by the
fact that Vodalus fires his weapon, but never indicates at whom.  The issue
however is that our apprentices are surprised to see the guard gone.  If
leaving his post to patrol were common, why the confusion over his absence?

V doesn't seemingly fire at the volunteers, the dialog between he and
Badger and Thea support this, and only three of the volunteers (those
pursuing Eata) could have possibly arrived at the site before Sev anyway.

So where's the guard, and why did V fire his weapon?

-WHG3
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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 01 May 2014 23:34:03 +0000

William -

I believe that this question is answered in the "Short Sun" trilogy. At
least tentatively.

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:48 PM, William Graham <cyfyguy at gmail.com> wrote:

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-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
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From: William Graham <cyfyguy at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 01:34:49 +0000

LOL!  It figures-  four sentences in and I have to commit to reading
another thousand pages to get half an answer!  That's Wolfe for ya!

-WHG3

On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com> wrote:

>> The obvious answer is that he's patrolling, a possibility supported by
>> the fact that Vodalus fires his weapon, but never indicates at whom.  The
>> issue however is that our apprentices are surprised to see the guard gone.
>>  If leaving his post to patrol were common, why the confusion over his
>> absence?
>>
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From: Antonin Scriabin <kierkegaurdian at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 02 May 2014 20:22:00 +0000

Would you want it any other way?
On May 1, 2014 9:34 PM, "William Graham" <cyfyguy at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> William -
>>
>>> Hello folks,  I've been reading the lists for ages-  thanks for the
>>> help.  I'm now one my second 'hard read' through BOTNS after half a dozen
>>> or so 'casual reads' since its publication.
>>>
>>> The popular discussion on this page has historically been "Who asks,
>>> 'But why would the guard leave?' ?"  in the next paragraph.  While that
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Sat, 03 May 2014 10:35:12 +0000

From: William Graham

> why
> would the guard leave?' ?"  in the next paragraph.  While that discussion 
> is very
>  useful for introducing us to Wolfe's love of removing the net from 
> underneath
>  his readers' high wire, I cannot seem to find any place where those who 
> have
>  gone before have asked the more basic question:

I always just assumed that either he heard something (Vodalus) and went to 
investigate, or else Hildegrande (most likely) quietly disposed of him and 
moved the corpse (or at least, the inert body).

He was expected to be at the gate, and wasn't there.  But intruders were 
inside.  That's as much of a Checkov's Gunshot as I need, even from Wolfe.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2014 20:34:01 +0000

I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed
tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the
answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_
far ahead. So we can still ask what his original intention was. (The
presence of the citizen volunteers suggests that either the guard is  quite
often absent, or his presence is ineffective.)
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2014 22:13:13 +0000

After looking at the chapter again . . . my assumption has always been 
that the guard was paid off.

On 5/4/2014 4:34 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:
>
>
> I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does 
> indeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this 
> was not the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he 
> wasn't planning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his 
> original intention was. (The presence of the citizen volunteers 
> suggests that either the guard is  quite often absent, or his presence 
> is ineffective.)
>
>

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From: Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <jwilson at clueland.com>
Date: Sun, 04 May 2014 23:51:33 +0000

On 5/4/2014 3:34 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:
> indeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was
> not the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't
> planning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his original
> intention was. (The presence of the citizen volunteers suggests that
> either the guard is  quite often absent, or his presence is ineffective.)

Remember the saying about 5 buildings per living inhabitant of Nessus; 
how many of those 5 building's former inhabitants are now interred 
somewhere at the necropolis? That's a lot of graveyard per guard.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >
A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab
< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 01:16:49 +0000

No dia 04/05/2014, ?s 21:34, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> escreveu:

> I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed tell us where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the answer Wolfe had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_ far ahead. So we can still ask what his original intention was.

But why would the author not insert his original intention into the latter book?

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 03:06:44 +0000

> somewhere at the necropolis? That's a lot of graveyard per guard.

That too.

---

From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 05:53:25 +0000

Or Wolfe re-read New Sun in preparation for writing Short Sun and thought
shoot ... where the heck did that guard go?

On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Andrew Mason

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Mon, 05 May 2014 14:54:40 +0000

From: Andrew Mason

> tell us
> where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the answer 
> Wolfe
> had in mind when he wrote _New Sun_; he wasn't planning _that_ far ahead.
> So we can still ask what his original intention was. (The presence of the 
> citizen
>  volunteers suggests that either the guard is  quite often absent, or his
> presence is ineffective.)

Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us?  I can't think of anything 
in _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth.

There are references in _Return to the Whorl_, and even a visit to the 
Necropolis.  But that must have been later, as Severian already had 
Triskele.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: entonio at gmail.com <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 09:33:31 +0000

No dia 05/05/2014, ?s 15:54, "Gerry Quinn" <gerry at bindweed.com> escreveu:

> 
> 
> From: Andrew Mason
> 
>> I'm sure that _Short Sun_ (specifically _In Green's Jungles_) does indeed tell us
>> where the guard went; but I'm equally sure that this was not the answer Wolfe
>> So we can still ask what his original intention was. (The presence of the citizen
> Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us?  I can't think of anything in _In Green's Jungles_ that references current events on Urth.
> 
> There are references in _Return to the Whorl_, and even a visit to the Necropolis.  But that must have been later, as Severian already had Triskele.

I'm one of those eagerly waiting for a reply.

---

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Tue, 06 May 2014 15:06:31 +0000

> that the guard was paid off.

I suppose that's actually compatible with the _Short Sun_ explanation; if
Vodalus had paid the guard to leave his post, he might have treated the
arrival of the Rajan and party as a good excuse to do so. (So no actual
change of mind needs to be posited, even though Wolfe wasn't actually
planning _Short Sun_ when he wrote the original scene.)

> Necropolis.  But that must have been later, as Severian already had

IGJ Chapter  21, 'The Red Sun': the Rajan, Fava, Mora, Hide, Rigoglio and
some extras travel to Urth, initially to Rigoglio's old house - from there
they go to the river, and finally end up at the Bear Tower (escorted by a
guard who has left his post), thus setting things up for the Rajan's later
trips to the river and to the Citadel in RTTW. Severian does not appear in
this episode; we have to wait for RTTW to meet him. Some people, though,
when the book first came out, noted the relation of the episode with the
first scene of _New Sun_, and hypothesised that the Rajan has just missed
Severian, a theory confirmed in the next book when they do meet.

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 12:34:11 +0000

From: Andrew Mason

> IGJ Chapter  21, 'The Red Sun'

Ah right, that figures.

- Gerry Quinn

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From: Fred Kiesche <godelescherbach at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 07 May 2014 13:40:37 +0000

I am struck by a silly music video. Recall the 80's. Soft Cell. Their
wonderful duo of "Tainted Love" backed into "Where Did Our Love Go?".

Baby, baby
Where did the Guard go?

...

On Wed, May 7, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> wrote:

>
>
> From: Andrew Mason
>
>  Gerry Quinn  wrote:
>>
>
>  > Okay, I'll bite - when and where does it tell us?  I can't think of >
>> anything

-- 
F.P. Kiesche III

Husband, Father, Good Cook. Reader. Keeper of abandoned dogs. Catholic
Liberal Conservative Militarist. Does not fit into a neat box or category.
"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always, scribble,
scribble, scribble, eh?" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being presented with
Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.) Blogging at Bernal
Alpha. On Twitter as @FredKiesche
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