{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6543", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6543, "subject": "some random thoughts: gematria, Forlesen, seal of Pas", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2014-05-05T06:12:50+00:00", "last": "2014-05-06T00:42:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T06:12:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some random thoughts: gematria, Forlesen, seal of Pas", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So ... I am trying to articulate my thoughts about Forlesen, a story where\nthe theme is clear but the actual mechanism of Forlesen's life is a bit ...\ndifficult. When Emmanuel Forlesen stops to pick up Abraham, Abraham says\nhe is eldest of 13 children and his father's farm was taken to be used for\na highway the very day he inherited it. Well, that's fine ... but that\nparticular number and his name (just one child greater than the tribes of\nIsrael and Jacob's children) and the speckled lights in the clouds put me\nin mind to some degree of Jacob's ladder. (those names are a little too\nreligious to ignore anyway)\n\nAnyway, Borski's idea that everything is a computer simulation and that the\nno yes no yes yes no yes yes is binary at the end hasn't quite convinced\nme, though I will confront it. It got me thinking of number cognates and\nhow Wolfe uses them. In Slaves of Silver, the flashing colors through the\ntv set spell out HELP.\n\nWe have long puzzled over the strange numbers that sat on the Seal of Pas\nthat probably mean very little in Long Sun, but while I was researching\nJacob's ladder there was some almost Kabbalistic talk of how Sinai and the\nword for ladder have the same numerical value in the Jewish practice of\ngematria - that words or phrases of the same number value have some\nrelationship to each other. Interestingly, there's actually a chart that\nassigns letters to numbers.\n\nHowever, I have no patience for that kind of cryptic system. I just\nthought it was interesting that conceivably there is an existing religious\nnumber-letter cipher system that someone so inclined could use. I don't\nthink that would be very fair at all, but the distinctly Jewish names\nand Emmanuel (God is with us) picking up destitute Abraham who lost his\nfarm the day his father died to make a highway really does evoke some\nJewish salvation ideas. Forlesen needs a bit more thinking - I don't want\nto declare that it simply is, Gregor Samsa turned beetle style. I think\ncause and effect are almost always discernible in Wolfe that prevents him\nfrom ever actually becoming an absurdist." } ] }, { "message_id": "<27119955B3C546579AB44238DD24B735@Rover>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T14:58:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some random thoughts: gematria, Forlesen, seal of Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Marc Aramini \n\n[Forleson]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, Borski's idea that everything is a computer simulation and that the no yes \nno yes yes no yes yes is binary at the end hasn't quite convinced me, though I will \nconfront it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That’s an interesting idea, but I’m still inclined to think of Forleson as metaphor for an ordinary working life (and a cynical take on middle management) rather than true SF.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T15:19:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some random thoughts: gematria, Forlesen, seal of Pas", "in_reply_to": "<27119955B3C546579AB44238DD24B735@Rover>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah it is definitely that kind of metaphor, but there are still things\nlike the breakfast and coffee tasting like oil, the twelve types of dead,\nthe shifting pillars, the difference betwen reflections and mirrors and\nother perceptions, the cop with his blood and urine catheter connections to\nhis car that hint that maybe it is more than just an indeterminate dream\nfantasy metaphor with no scientific or \"logical\" explanation.\nThe problem is figuring what oily coffee implies heh heh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, May 5, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nFrom: Marc Aramini\n\n[Forleson]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, Borski's idea that everything is a computer simulation and that\nthe no yes\nno yes yes no yes yes is binary at the end hasn't quite convinced me,\nthough I will\nconfront it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That’s an interesting idea, but I’m still inclined to think of Forleson as\nmetaphor for an ordinary working life (and a cynical take on middle\nmanagement) rather than true SF.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-05T20:46:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some random thoughts: gematria, Forlesen, seal of Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oily coffee implies beans that are overroasted and brewed strong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nYeah it is definitely that kind of metaphor, but there are still things\nlike the breakfast and coffee tasting like oil, the twelve types of dead,\nthe shifting pillars, the difference betwen reflections and mirrors and\nother perceptions, the cop with his blood and urine catheter connections to\nhis car that hint that maybe it is more than just an indeterminate dream\nfantasy metaphor with no scientific or \"logical\" explanation.\nThe problem is figuring what oily coffee implies heh heh.\n\nOn Monday, May 5, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Marc Aramini\n\n[Forleson]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Anyway, Borski's idea that everything is a computer simulation and that\nthe no yes\nno yes yes no yes yes is binary at the end hasn't quite convinced me,\nthough I will\nconfront it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That’s an interesting idea, but I’m still inclined to think of Forleson\nas metaphor for an ordinary working life (and a cynical take on middle\nmanagement) rather than true SF.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-05-06T00:42:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) some random thoughts: gematria, Forlesen, seal of Pas", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not the only oily thing though - oil spots under his car, etc. \"He tasted\nthe egg. It was good but slightly oily, as though a drop of motor oil had\nfound its way into the grease in which she had fried it.\" Lots of oil\neverywhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 1:46 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOily coffee implies beans that are overroasted and brewed strong.\n\n\nOn Mon, May 5, 2014 at 8:19 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah it is definitely that kind of metaphor, but there are still things\nlike the breakfast and coffee tasting like oil, the twelve types of dead,\nthe shifting pillars, the difference betwen reflections and mirrors and\nother perceptions, the cop with his blood and urine catheter connections to\nhis car that hint that maybe it is more than just an indeterminate dream\nfantasy metaphor with no scientific or \"logical\" explanation.\nThe problem is figuring what oily coffee implies heh heh.\n\nOn Monday, May 5, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: Marc Aramini\n\n[Forleson]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Anyway, Borski's idea that everything is a computer simulation and\nthat the no yes\nno yes yes no yes yes is binary at the end hasn't quite convinced me,\nthough I will\nconfront it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That’s an interesting idea, but I’m still inclined to think of Forleson\nas metaphor for an ordinary working life (and a cynical take on middle\nmanagement) rather than true SF.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }