{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6577", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6577, "subject": "Short Story 13: The Changeling", "messages": 6, "voices": 2, "first": "2014-07-18T21:26:52+00:00", "last": "2014-07-21T17:12:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-18T21:26:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm working my way from the beginning of Marc's thoughtful posts on the short stories and have been thinking a bit about \"The Changeling\".\nI think that the difficulty in interpreting \"The Changeling\" is the fact that it is fractured through at least three (perhaps more) interpretive prisms. Each forms a layer that is necessary for the whole but insufficient on its own, creating together a rich thematic warp and woof that builds and reinforces itself in interesting ways.\nFirst, you have the real-world interpretation that revolves around the 20 or so P.O.W.s from the Korean War that were captured by the Chinese, held in prison camps and brainwashed for three years. After this torturous ordeal, and being \"convinced\" by the Maoists, many decided to refuse repatriation and remain in China. Those that stayed went about setting up new lives in the People's Republic. Pete Palmer is one of these individuals. He mentions Panmunjom, the Korean town where talks were held that ultimately resulted in the release of the P.O.W.s on June 8, 1953. There is a Wikipedia entry listing all those persons who refused repatriation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War. Interestingly, several of the persons listed have biographies that are similar to Pete Palmer's. Several of the listed individuals worked in paper mills in China before later returning to the United States. One of those individuals is listed as Sgt. Howard Adams from Corsicana, Texas not too far from Houston and thus almost certainly a person Korean War veteran Gene Wolfe would have been familiar with.\nWhen Pete Palmer finally decides to return to America, c. 1959, he is held prisoner by the U.S., undergoing detention and a trial at Ft. Leavenworth, Kansas. Several of the real-life prisoners, Otho Bell, William Cowart, and Lewis Griggs faced trial but in 1955. (See The Graybeards, Official Publication of the Korean War Veterans Association, Vol. 15, No. 4, July-August 2002, pp. 10-11). In this real-world interpretation, several of the mysterious happenings that occur in the story (the unaging Peter Palmieri, the lack of records, his going crazy) can be viewed as the understandable psychological response of a person who has been through a rather hellish experience only to return \"home\" and find that because of the choices made after undergoing intense indoctrination at a very young age (probably about 17 when he was captured) he has been consciously forgotten by everyone. Rather than believe that one of their own would be a \"red\" sympathizer, they have chosen instead to act as though he doesn't exist. Ernie Cotha and Papa Palmieri being examples of ones who have remembered and presumably forgiven Pete his \"sins\". Which segues nicely to the second interpretative structure that can be laid over the proceedings. \nAs Marc Aramini has already pointed out, James Jordan has put together an interpretation that saw the story as \"commentary on the American\nCatholic church changing its ways from its old roots, with Papa as the Pope and\nMama as the church and Maria as Mary etc. and Pete Palmer representing the\nturning away from the old Italian way of being Catholic\". (For James Jordan's original analyis, see Urth Archives, Jim Jordan, July 16, 1997; Jim Jordan, July 22, 1997). I think James Jordan's instinct was right here in playing up the allusions to religious personages central to the Catholic faith but I think saw it as symbolic of a too recent split in the Catholic church. If one takes it back farther, to the Great Schism within the Catholic Church (c. 1054) that created the two great branches of Christianity (Eastern Orthodox and Catholic) the resonances with the split of North and South Korea along modern ideological grounds precipitating the Korean War become stronger. The East-West Schism or First Great Schism was a division of the Church into East and West halves that was manifested not only in differing church doctrines (whether the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father through the Son or some other arrangement if I remember correctly), but also in actual political and geographical divisions that persist to the present day.\nThe Schism interpretation is hinted at through the name associations of the two people in town who remember Pete Palmer: Ernie Cotha and Papa Palmieri. James Jordan's interpretation of Papa Palmieri as a stand-in for the Pope I believe to be correct and puts him on the Catholic (which corresponds with the Capitalist) side. How about that marvelously curious name \"Cotha\"? Well if it is seen as an acronym rather than a word of its own it may refer to COTHA = Church of the Holy Apostles, a\nchurch in Eastern Orthodox Constantinople. Thus, Ernie Cotha (earnest church = true church?) is the Eastern side (corresponding to the Communist ideology). The resonance here is what happens to individuals and communities when ideological differences result in massive upheavals in their lives, whether it be Communism vs. Capitalism in the mid-20th century or Eastern Orthodoxy vs. Roman Catholicism in the mid-11th. The difficulty with any such either/or ideological battle is that it tends to have a stultifying effect on both sides, each becoming entrenched in an unchanging conservative form of itself, the better to highlight differences with its ideological counterweight. Thus the Peter Palmieri who does not age is both the Roman Catholic Church after the Great Schism and Western Capitalism at the outbreak of the Cold War. The Roman Catholic Church would eventually reap the harvest of this entrenchment when Protestantism started kicking at its rotten trunk and won hordes of converts. The results of the entrenchment of Western Capitalism at the outset of the Cold War were still shrouded in uncertainty when Wolfe wrote \"The Changeling\" and perhaps still are but I doubt his belief was that any good would come out of it for either side. \nThe third interpretative layer is the Peter Pan allusions. At this point in the analysis it becomes obvious that Pan's refusal to grow up is meant to resonate with the entrenchment of the Catholic Church and the similar doctrinal orthodoxies adhered to by North and South Korea and on a more global level in the Cold War. The frustration of Pete Palmer (when he ultimately goes mad and sets the skiff drift away from the island) and the error of Papa Palmieri is the fact that history repeats itself and even though we all know the adage, we are still all doomed to repeat it. Pete Palmer thinks that he can change and still return to the place of his childhood and be accepted but he is not. People don't want change, which is why the whole town is perfectly happy to go along with calling Peter, though unchanging, something new every few years. Pete realizes that \"Peter still has the same last name as always and I guess now he always will, but the boys don't call him by it much.\" Peter, like the ideological splits of the past that are certain to recur in the future, are fundamentally the same, but human societies don't recognize them as proceeding from the same source very often. Papa (the Pope) is wrong that eventually Peter (the conservative Catholic Church) will not be able to pass himself logically as a member of the family any longer (refuse rapprochement with the Eastern Church). Peter manages to continue doing so and the Schism still exists. Pope Paul VI attempted reconciliation to a certain degree in 1965 by nullifying one of the major acts that led to the Great Schism in 1054, but the Schism went right on persisting and probably always will. Perhaps it is pessimistic but in 1968 it seems Gene Wolfe thought it was equally likely that we were witnessing a rift in humanity that might persist for a millennium.\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-19T00:07:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Did you read the posts I made after my initial one that accounted for the\nthree missing years? Pete Palmer was an actor who played Lil Abner, born\nin 1931 like Gene Wolfe (Lil Abner was a notorious oaf, and the word oaf\nstems from the idea of an even elfin changeling swapped in a bad bargain,\nsuch that the switch happened in 1931 and Pete Palmer only believes himself\nto be in the fourth grade in 1944 or so because that is when he wrestles\nthe eternal fourth grader who took his place, affecting his memories.\nWhen I looked up Pete Palmer born 1931 I didn't expect a real person to\ncome up. So they really were swapped at birth in 1931 rather than having\nonly \"one\" mentally fractured family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Robert Pirkola \nwrote:\nI'm working my way from the beginning of Marc's thoughtful posts on the\nshort stories and have been thinking a bit about \"The Changeling\".\n\n\nI think that the difficulty in interpreting \"The Changeling\" is the fact\nthat it is fractured through at least three (perhaps more) interpretive\nprisms. Each forms a layer that is necessary for the whole but\ninsufficient on its own, creating together a rich thematic warp and woof\nthat builds and reinforces itself in interesting ways.\n\n\nFirst, you have the real-world interpretation that revolves around the 20\nor so P.O.W.s from the Korean War that were captured by the Chinese, held\nin prison camps and brainwashed for three years. After this torturous\nordeal, and being \"convinced\" by the Maoists, many decided to refuse\nrepatriation and remain in China. Those that stayed went about setting up\nnew lives in the People's Republic. Pete Palmer is one of these\nindividuals. He mentions Panmunjom, the Korean town where talks were held\nthat ultimately resulted in the release of the P.O.W.s on June 8, 1953. There\nis a Wikipedia entry listing all those persons who refused repatriation.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War.\n Interestingly, several of the persons listed have biographies that are\nsimilar to Pete Palmer's. Several of the listed individuals worked in\npaper mills in China before later returning to the United States. One of\nthose individuals is listed as Sgt. Howard Adams from Corsicana, Texas not\ntoo far from Houston and thus almost certainly a person Korean War veteran\nGene Wolfe would have been familiar with.\n\n\nWhen Pete Palmer finally decides to return to America, c. 1959, he is held\nprisoner by the U.S., undergoing detention and a trial at Ft. Leavenworth,\nKansas. Several of the real-life prisoners, Otho Bell, William Cowart, and\nLewis Griggs faced trial but in 1955. (See The Graybeards, Official\nPublication of the Korean War Veterans Association, Vol. 15, No. 4,\nJuly-August 2002, pp. 10-11). In this real-world interpretation, several\nof the mysterious happenings that occur in the story (the unaging Peter\nPalmieri, the lack of records, his going crazy) can be viewed as the\nunderstandable psychological response of a person who has been through a\nrather hellish experience only to return \"home\" and find that because of\nthe choices made after undergoing intense indoctrination at a very young\nage (probably about 17 when he was captured) he has been consciously\nforgotten by everyone. Rather than believe that one of their own would be\na \"red\" sympathizer, they have chosen instead to act as though he doesn't\nexist. Ernie Cotha and Papa Palmieri being examples of ones who have\nremembered and presumably forgiven Pete his \"sins\". Which segues nicely to\nthe second interpretative structure that can be laid over the proceedings.\n\n\n\nAs Marc Aramini has already pointed out, James Jordan has put together an\ninterpretation that saw the story as \"commentary on the American Catholic\nchurch changing its ways from its old roots, with Papa as the Pope and Mama\nas the church and Maria as Mary etc. and Pete Palmer representing the\nturning away from the old Italian way of being Catholic\". (For James\nJordan's original analyis, see Urth Archives, Jim Jordan, July 16, 1997;\nJim Jordan, July 22, 1997). I think James Jordan's instinct was right\nhere in playing up the allusions to religious personages central to the\nCatholic faith but I think saw it as symbolic of a too recent split in the\nCatholic church. If one takes it back farther, to the Great Schism within\nthe Catholic Church (c. 1054) that created the two great branches of\nChristianity (Eastern Orthodox and Catholic) the resonances with the split\nof North and South Korea along modern ideological grounds precipitating the\nKorean War become stronger. The East-West Schism or First Great Schism was\na division of the Church into East and West halves that was manifested not\nonly in differing church doctrines (whether the Holy Spirit proceeded from\nthe Father through the Son or some other arrangement if I remember\ncorrectly), but also in actual political and geographical divisions that\npersist to the present day.\n\n\nThe Schism interpretation is hinted at through the name associations of\nthe two people in town who remember Pete Palmer: Ernie Cotha and Papa\nPalmieri. James Jordan's interpretation of Papa Palmieri as a stand-in for\nthe Pope I believe to be correct and puts him on the Catholic (which\ncorresponds with the Capitalist) side. How about that marvelously curious\nname \"Cotha\"? Well if it is seen as an acronym rather than a word of its\nown it may refer to COTHA = Church of the Holy Apostles, a church in\nEastern Orthodox Constantinople. Thus, Ernie Cotha (earnest church = true\nchurch?) is the Eastern side (corresponding to the Communist ideology).\n The resonance here is what happens to individuals and communities when\nideological differences result in massive upheavals in their lives, whether\nit be Communism vs. Capitalism in the mid-20th century or Eastern Orthodoxy\nvs. Roman Catholicism in the mid-11th. The difficulty with any such\neither/or ideological battle is that it tends to have a stultifying effect\non both sides, each becoming entrenched in an unchanging conservative form\nof itself, the better to highlight differences with its ideological\ncounterweight. Thus the Peter Palmieri who does not age is both the Roman\nCatholic Church after the Great Schism and Western Capitalism at the\noutbreak of the Cold War. The Roman Catholic Church would eventually reap\nthe harvest of this entrenchment when Protestantism started kicking at its\nrotten trunk and won hordes of converts. The results of the entrenchment\nof Western Capitalism at the outset of the Cold War were still shrouded in\nuncertainty when Wolfe wrote \"The Changeling\" and perhaps still are but I\ndoubt his belief was that any good would come out of it for either side.\n\n\nThe third interpretative layer is the Peter Pan allusions. At this point\nin the analysis it becomes obvious that Pan's refusal to grow up is meant\nto resonate with the entrenchment of the Catholic Church and the similar\ndoctrinal orthodoxies adhered to by North and South Korea and on a more\nglobal level in the Cold War. The frustration of Pete Palmer (when he\nultimately goes mad and sets the skiff drift away from the island) and the\nerror of Papa Palmieri is the fact that history repeats itself and even\nthough we all know the adage, we are still all doomed to repeat it. Pete\nPalmer thinks that he can change and still return to the place of his\nchildhood and be accepted but he is not. People don't want change, which\nis why the whole town is perfectly happy to go along with calling Peter,\nthough unchanging, something new every few years. Pete realizes that\n\"Peter still has the same last name as always and I guess now he always\nwill, but the boys don't call him by it much.\" Peter, like the ideological\nsplits of the past that are certain to recur in the future, are\nfundamentally the same, but human societies don't recognize them as\nproceeding from the same source very often. Papa (the Pope) is wrong that\neventually Peter (the conservative Catholic Church) will not be able to\npass himself logically as a member of the family any longer (refuse\nrapprochement with the Eastern Church). Peter manages to continue doing so\nand the Schism still exists. Pope Paul VI attempted reconciliation to a\ncertain degree in 1965 by nullifying one of the major acts that led to the\nGreat Schism in 1054, but the Schism went right on persisting and probably\nalways will. Perhaps it is pessimistic but in 1968 it seems Gene Wolfe\nthought it was equally likely that we were witnessing a rift in humanity\nthat might persist for a millennium.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-19T00:09:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes the eureka moment would hit me after I made the post, like\nMountains Like Mice, where the purple dye he paints himself with is the\npurple dye of an in vivo science experiment to make cells visible brought\nto a literal level." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:07 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nDid you read the posts I made after my initial one that accounted for the\nthree missing years? Pete Palmer was an actor who played Lil Abner, born\nin 1931 like Gene Wolfe (Lil Abner was a notorious oaf, and the word oaf\nstems from the idea of an even elfin changeling swapped in a bad bargain,\nsuch that the switch happened in 1931 and Pete Palmer only believes himself\nto be in the fourth grade in 1944 or so because that is when he wrestles\nthe eternal fourth grader who took his place, affecting his memories.\nWhen I looked up Pete Palmer born 1931 I didn't expect a real person to\ncome up. So they really were swapped at birth in 1931 rather than having\nonly \"one\" mentally fractured family.\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Robert Pirkola \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm working my way from the beginning of Marc's thoughtful posts on the\nshort stories and have been thinking a bit about \"The Changeling\".\n\n\nI think that the difficulty in interpreting \"The Changeling\" is the fact\nthat it is fractured through at least three (perhaps more) interpretive\nprisms. Each forms a layer that is necessary for the whole but\ninsufficient on its own, creating together a rich thematic warp and woof\nthat builds and reinforces itself in interesting ways.\n\n\nFirst, you have the real-world interpretation that revolves around the 20\nor so P.O.W.s from the Korean War that were captured by the Chinese, held\nin prison camps and brainwashed for three years. After this torturous\nordeal, and being \"convinced\" by the Maoists, many decided to refuse\nrepatriation and remain in China. Those that stayed went about setting up\nnew lives in the People's Republic. Pete Palmer is one of these\nindividuals. He mentions Panmunjom, the Korean town where talks were held\nthat ultimately resulted in the release of the P.O.W.s on June 8, 1953. There\nis a Wikipedia entry listing all those persons who refused repatriation.\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_American_and_British_defectors_in_the_Korean_War.\n Interestingly, several of the persons listed have biographies that are\nsimilar to Pete Palmer's. Several of the listed individuals worked in\npaper mills in China before later returning to the United States. One\nof those individuals is listed as Sgt. Howard Adams from Corsicana, Texas\nnot too far from Houston and thus almost certainly a person Korean War\nveteran Gene Wolfe would have been familiar with.\n\n\nWhen Pete Palmer finally decides to return to America, c. 1959, he is\nheld prisoner by the U.S., undergoing detention and a trial at Ft.\nLeavenworth, Kansas. Several of the real-life prisoners, Otho Bell,\nWilliam Cowart, and Lewis Griggs faced trial but in 1955. (See The\nGraybeards, Official Publication of the Korean War Veterans Association,\nVol. 15, No. 4, July-August 2002, pp. 10-11). In this real-world\ninterpretation, several of the mysterious happenings that occur in the\nstory (the unaging Peter Palmieri, the lack of records, his going crazy)\n can be viewed as the understandable psychological response of a person who\nhas been through a rather hellish experience only to return \"home\" and find\nthat because of the choices made after undergoing intense indoctrination at\na very young age (probably about 17 when he was captured) he has been\nconsciously forgotten by everyone. Rather than believe that one of their\nown would be a \"red\" sympathizer, they have chosen instead to act as though\nhe doesn't exist. Ernie Cotha and Papa Palmieri being examples of ones who\nhave remembered and presumably forgiven Pete his \"sins\". Which segues\nnicely to the second interpretative structure that can be laid over the\nproceedings.\n\n\nAs Marc Aramini has already pointed out, James Jordan has put together an\ninterpretation that saw the story as \"commentary on the American\nCatholic church changing its ways from its old roots, with Papa as the Pope\nand Mama as the church and Maria as Mary etc. and Pete Palmer representing\nthe turning away from the old Italian way of being Catholic\". (For\nJames Jordan's original analyis, see Urth Archives, Jim Jordan, July 16,\n1997; Jim Jordan, July 22, 1997). I think James Jordan's instinct was\nright here in playing up the allusions to religious personages central to\nthe Catholic faith but I think saw it as symbolic of a too recent split in\nthe Catholic church. If one takes it back farther, to the Great Schism\nwithin the Catholic Church (c. 1054) that created the two great branches of\nChristianity (Eastern Orthodox and Catholic) the resonances with the split\nof North and South Korea along modern ideological grounds precipitating the\nKorean War become stronger. The East-West Schism or First Great Schism was\na division of the Church into East and West halves that was manifested not\nonly in differing church doctrines (whether the Holy Spirit proceeded from\nthe Father through the Son or some other arrangement if I remember\ncorrectly), but also in actual political and geographical divisions that\npersist to the present day.\n\n\nThe Schism interpretation is hinted at through the name associations of\nthe two people in town who remember Pete Palmer: Ernie Cotha and Papa\nPalmieri. James Jordan's interpretation of Papa Palmieri as a stand-in for\nthe Pope I believe to be correct and puts him on the Catholic (which\ncorresponds with the Capitalist) side. How about that marvelously curious\nname \"Cotha\"? Well if it is seen as an acronym rather than a word of its\nown it may refer to COTHA = Church of the Holy Apostles, a church in\nEastern Orthodox Constantinople. Thus, Ernie Cotha (earnest church = true\nchurch?) is the Eastern side (corresponding to the Communist ideology).\n The resonance here is what happens to individuals and communities when\nideological differences result in massive upheavals in their lives, whether\nit be Communism vs. Capitalism in the mid-20th century or Eastern Orthodoxy\nvs. Roman Catholicism in the mid-11th. The difficulty with any such\neither/or ideological battle is that it tends to have a stultifying effect\non both sides, each becoming entrenched in an unchanging conservative form\nof itself, the better to highlight differences with its ideological\ncounterweight. Thus the Peter Palmieri who does not age is both the Roman\nCatholic Church after the Great Schism and Western Capitalism at the\noutbreak of the Cold War. The Roman Catholic Church would eventually reap\nthe harvest of this entrenchment when Protestantism started kicking at its\nrotten trunk and won hordes of converts. The results of the entrenchment\nof Western Capitalism at the outset of the Cold War were still shrouded in\nuncertainty when Wolfe wrote \"The Changeling\" and perhaps still are but I\ndoubt his belief was that any good would come out of it for either side.\n\n\nThe third interpretative layer is the Peter Pan allusions. At this point\nin the analysis it becomes obvious that Pan's refusal to grow up is meant\nto resonate with the entrenchment of the Catholic Church and the similar\ndoctrinal orthodoxies adhered to by North and South Korea and on a more\nglobal level in the Cold War. The frustration of Pete Palmer (when he\nultimately goes mad and sets the skiff drift away from the island) and the\nerror of Papa Palmieri is the fact that history repeats itself and even\nthough we all know the adage, we are still all doomed to repeat it. Pete\nPalmer thinks that he can change and still return to the place of his\nchildhood and be accepted but he is not. People don't want change, which\nis why the whole town is perfectly happy to go along with calling Peter,\nthough unchanging, something new every few years. Pete realizes that\n\"Peter still has the same last name as always and I guess now he always\nwill, but the boys don't call him by it much.\" Peter, like the ideological\nsplits of the past that are certain to recur in the future, are\nfundamentally the same, but human societies don't recognize them as\nproceeding from the same source very often. Papa (the Pope) is wrong that\neventually Peter (the conservative Catholic Church) will not be able to\npass himself logically as a member of the family any longer (refuse\nrapprochement with the Eastern Church). Peter manages to continue doing so\nand the Schism still exists. Pope Paul VI attempted reconciliation to a\ncertain degree in 1965 by nullifying one of the major acts that led to the\nGreat Schism in 1054, but the Schism went right on persisting and probably\nalways will. Perhaps it is pessimistic but in 1968 it seems Gene Wolfe\nthought it was equally likely that we were witnessing a rift in humanity\nthat might persist for a millennium.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-21T15:52:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had read the posts about the 3 missing years, though I had little to add to that at this time other than if he is an \"oaf\", persons I generally associate with being dullards, isn't it possible that Pete Palmer was held back a number of years in school so that he was in 4th grade in 1944 AND born in 1931? That non-magical explanation aside, I have a hard time disagreeing with your timeline. The purpose of my post was that I had just noticed while reading the various interpretations that have been used over the years for \"The Changeling\" that they were rarely, if ever, discussed all together so I tried my hand at doing so, adding in some details I had found and thought informative. \n\nAlso, while reading some of the old musings on this story by Ron Crown, Michael\nAndre-Driussi, James Jordan, et al., from 1997, I noticed that there was reference to Wolfe whispering the secret of the \"The Changeling\" to Damon Knight: \n\"[W]hen Damon Knight reprinted 'Changeling' in a best-of Orbit collection from the first ten volumes; he prefaced it with a letter to Wolfe written when he bought the story in which he confesses that he 'can't sort it out into any one consistent, linear, daylight-logic pattern.' According to Knight, Wolfe revealed the secret years later when he whispered to him 'The old man is dead, you know.'\" (Urth, Ron Crown, July 15, 1997).\nThe WolfeWiki entry for \"The Changeling\" has a mention of this same event but puts it thusly: \"That may be why when Larry Niven asked for an explanation of this story Wolfe simply said 'The old man is dead.'\" http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.TheChangeling\nBeyond the obvious conflict about who received the explanation, there is significant doubt that it was in reference to \"The Changeling\" at all. Micahel Andre-Driussi: \"I just can't shake the feeling that Wolfe was telling Knight about PEACE rather than 'The Changeling.'\"\nDoes anyone have the Best-Of Orbit collection with the Damon Knight preface that they can consult to clear this up?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 17:07:29 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Did you read the posts I made after my initial one that accounted for the\nthree missing years? Pete Palmer was an actor who played Lil Abner, born\nin 1931 like Gene Wolfe (Lil Abner was a notorious oaf, and the word oaf\nstems from the idea of an even elfin changeling swapped in a bad bargain,\nsuch that the switch happened in 1931 and Pete Palmer only believes himself\nto be in the fourth grade in 1944 or so because that is when he wrestles\nthe eternal fourth grader who took his place, affecting his memories.\nWhen I looked up Pete Palmer born 1931 I didn't expect a real person to\ncome up. So they really were swapped at birth in 1931 rather than having\nonly \"one\" mentally fractured family.\n\nDate: Fri, 18 Jul 2014 17:09:38 -0700\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling\n\nSometimes the eureka moment would hit me after I made the post, like\nMountains Like Mice, where the purple dye he paints himself with is the\npurple dye of an in vivo science experiment to make cells visible brought\nto a literal level." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-21T17:03:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Him being in the seventh grade explains why he isn't in the picture- his\nperceptions were altered by wrestling with his changeling. It seems\nmysterious but can be rationalized if we accept Peter Palmieri alters the\nperceptions of everyone in contact with him, but his father and Pete are a\nlittle different. It also explains why there was a room for Peter when he\nappeared at Maria's childhood and how someone overseas knew to ask about\npeter, and makes sense of the name of the church, the immaculate\nconception, which is concerning Mary's birth without sin (not Jesus') (ie\nthe changeling shows up when Maria is young).\n\nThe old man being dead could either mean the island of never land is the\nisle of death (closer than when Pete was young but farther from the shores\nof the real world than it is when he is on it compared to the other\nchildren) or that the father who takes Pete Palmer has passed on, his\npowerful evil might to bend nails broken.\n\nIt is, however, set in the world of Peace, so I am sure fairy stories are\nimportant to both works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, July 21, 2014, Robert Pirkola wrote:\nI had read the posts about the 3 missing years, though I had little to add\nto that at this time other than if he is an \"oaf\", persons I generally\nassociate with being dullards, isn't it possible that Pete Palmer was held\nback a number of years in school so that he was in 4th grade in 1944 AND\nborn in 1931? That non-magical explanation aside, I have a hard time\ndisagreeing with your timeline. The purpose of my post was that I had just\nnoticed while reading the various interpretations that have been used over\nthe years for \"The Changeling\" that they were rarely, if ever, discussed\nall together so I tried my hand at doing so, adding in some details I had\nfound and thought informative.\n\nAlso, while reading some of the old musings on this story by Ron Crown, Michael\nAndre-Driussi, James Jordan, et al., from 1997, I noticed that there was\nreference to Wolfe whispering the secret of the \"The Changeling\" to Damon\nKnight:\n\n\"[W]hen Damon Knight reprinted 'Changeling' in a best-of Orbit collection from\nthe first ten volumes; he prefaced it with a letter to Wolfe written when\nhe bought the story in which he confesses that he 'can't sort it out into\nany one consistent, linear, daylight-logic pattern.' According to Knight,\nWolfe revealed the secret years later when he whispered to him 'The old\nman is dead, you know.'\" (Urth, Ron Crown, July 15, 1997).\n\nThe WolfeWiki entry for \"The Changeling\" has a mention of this same event\nbut puts it thusly: \"That may be why when Larry Niven asked for an\nexplanation of this story Wolfe simply said 'The old man is dead.'\"\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.TheChangeling\n\nBeyond the obvious conflict about who received the explanation, there is\nsignificant doubt that it was in reference to \"The Changeling\" at all.\n Micahel Andre-Driussi: \"I just can't shake the feeling that Wolfe was\ntelling Knight about PEACE rather than 'The Changeling.'\"\n\nDoes anyone have the Best-Of Orbit collection with the Damon Knight\npreface that they can consult to clear" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-21T17:12:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 13: The Changeling", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lil abner's father was named lucifer, by the way.\nI suppose that post should be \"his being in the 7th grade...\" ...\nPossessive pronouns with gerunds and gerund phrases ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, July 21, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHim being in the seventh grade explains why he isn't in the picture- his\nperceptions were altered by wrestling with his changeling. It seems\nmysterious but can be rationalized if we accept Peter Palmieri alters the\nperceptions of everyone in contact with him, but his father and Pete are a\nlittle different. It also explains why there was a room for Peter when he\nappeared at Maria's childhood and how someone overseas knew to ask about\npeter, and makes sense of the name of the church, the immaculate\nconception, which is concerning Mary's birth without sin (not Jesus') (ie\nthe changeling shows up when Maria is young).\n\nThe old man being dead could either mean the island of never land is the\nisle of death (closer than when Pete was young but farther from the shores\nof the real world than it is when he is on it compared to the other\nchildren) or that the father who takes Pete Palmer has passed on, his\npowerful evil might to bend nails broken.\n\nIt is, however, set in the world of Peace, so I am sure fairy stories are\nimportant to both works.\n\nOn Monday, July 21, 2014, Robert Pirkola > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I had read the posts about the 3 missing years, though I had little to\nadd to that at this time other than if he is an \"oaf\", persons I generally\nassociate with being dullards, isn't it possible that Pete Palmer was held\nback a number of years in school so that he was in 4th grade in 1944 AND\nborn in 1931? That non-magical explanation aside, I have a hard time\ndisagreeing with your timeline. The purpose of my post was that I had just\nnoticed while reading the various interpretations that have been used over\nthe years for \"The Changeling\" that they were rarely, if ever, discussed\nall together so I tried my hand at doing so, adding in some details I had\nfound and thought informative.\n\nAlso, while reading some of the old musings on this story by Ron Crown, Michael\nAndre-Driussi, James Jordan, et al., from 1997, I noticed that there was\nreference to Wolfe whispering the secret of the \"The Changeling\" to Damon\nKnight:\n\n\"[W]hen Damon Knight reprinted 'Changeling' in a best-of Orbit collection from\nthe first ten volumes; he prefaced it with a letter to Wolfe written\nwhen he bought the story in which he confesses that he 'can't sort it\nout into any one consistent, linear, daylight-logic pattern.' According\nto Knight, Wolfe revealed the secret years later when he whispered to\nhim 'The old man is dead, you know.'\" (Urth, Ron Crown, July 15, 1997).\n\nThe WolfeWiki entry for \"The Changeling\" has a mention of this same event\nbut puts it thusly: \"That may be why when Larry Niven asked for an\nexplanation of this story Wolfe simply said 'The old man is dead.'\"\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.TheChangeling\n\nBeyond the obvious conflict about who received the explanation, there is\nsignificant doubt that it was in reference to \"The Changeling\" at all.\n Micahel Andre-Driussi: \"I just can't shake the feeling that Wolfe was\ntelling Knight about PEACE rather than 'The Changeling.'\"\n\nDoes anyone have the Best-Of Orbit collection with the Damon Knight\npreface that they can consult to clear" } ] } ] }