{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6582", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6582, "subject": "May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "messages": 60, "voices": 13, "first": "2014-07-28T01:56:40+00:00", "last": "2014-08-11T18:34:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-07-28T01:56:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TR has published a lengthy interview with Gene Wolfe. It asks plenty\nof standard questions, but also some interesting ones about some of\nthe short stories which have come up recently, particularly \"Tracking\nSong\" and \"The Hero as Werwolf\".\n\nhttp://www.technologyreview.com/news/529431/a-qa-with-gene-wolfe/ \"A\nQ&A with Gene Wolfe; A Twelve Tomorrows exclusive: Science fiction\nlegend Gene Wolfe looks back on his career\", Jason Pontin, 25 July\n2014" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...when Wolfe dropped out of college, he was drafted into the Army, and fought in Korea as a combat engineer. He returned home, by his own account, “a mess”: “I’d hit the floor at the slightest noise.” Rosemary, whom he met again shortly after he was discharged, he says simply, “saved me.”\n\n...I met Gene Wolfe at home in Peoria, where he returned in 2013 after many years in Barrington, Illinois. Although he had recently published a new novel, _The Land Across_, and was working on another, it was a melancholy visit. He had moved because his wife, suffering from Alzheimer’s disease, wanted to go home. But not long after their return, she entered an assisted-living facility, and she died on December 14. Wolfe had been ill himself, his eyesight and heart troubled, and for a time he had also been confined to a facility. The day before I arrived, workers had found his dog, who had been missing for weeks: the animal had been hit by a car, and had crawled behind a garden bush to die. The house was nearly empty except for the author’s own books, some family photographs (including one of an implausibly young Wolfe in uniform), a little furniture, and a makeshift shrine, with a statue of the Virgin, rosary beads, and a Bible, in front of a window overlooking the back lawn.\n\nIn person, Wolfe is large, kindly, and unfailingly courteous. His hands are huge and spatulate. He sports an exuberant hussar?s moustache. He speaks carefully, in a higher register than the voice of the books might suggest. We talked the day after his 83rd birthday. [8 May 2014]\n\n...Q: What struck you about G.K. Chesterton?\n\nA: His charm; his willingness to follow an argument wherever it led.\n\nQ. What of the founders of science fiction?\n\nA. When I was a boy, I read all the pulp magazines, which were still around in those days. You’ve no doubt seen collector editions, but in those days you could buy a pulp for 10 or 15 cents. One of my favorites was _Famous Fantastic Mysteries_, which reprinted good stuff from the turn of the century. Once, they did Wells’s _The Island of Dr. Moreau_ [1896] as an entire issue. And I read it, and I absolutely loved it, and when I had read the last page I went back to the first page, and I started again. And when I started my fourth reading I thought, “Well, I know everything that’s going to happen now and I’ll just put it aside for a while until I’ve kind of forgotten it, and then I’ll read it again.” And I never looked at it again until I was about 50. And when I was that age, somebody wrote to me and said he was putting together one of those books that honor the hundred best science fiction novels. It would have essays from writers like me, and this person wanted me to do _The Island of Dr. Moreau_. I thought, “Gee, I remember that fondly. I will take him up on that. But first, obviously, I have to get a copy of it and read it, since I haven’t read it since I was a kid.” And I did ?\n\nWonderful cover on that book, by the way wonderful! The man was bare-chested?not quite muscular enough to be a hero, but muscular and good-looking and behind him is this enormous, shaggy monster. And the monster has one hand on the man’s shoulder. In a most buddy-looking sort of way, you know. [Chuckles merrily.] I thought that was a lovely cover; I still do ?\n\nAnyhow, I read the book and immediately saw there were things in there that had completely sailed over me that were now hitting me like a brick. The book starts when the narrator gets on a ship from some city in South America. On the third day out, they ram a derelict and their ship sinks. He spends three days in a lifeboat with two men, a fellow passenger and a sailor, and he mentions, just in passing, that he never learned the name of the sailor in the boat with him. And another thing: the sailor and the passenger fall overboard in a struggle, and the narrator is picked up by a boat carrying Dr. Moreau’s doctor, who gives him “a dose of some scarlet stuff, iced. It tasted like blood, and made me feel stronger.” That one, too, just whizzed by me. All this stuff, and I was too dumb to appreciate it as a boy!\n\n...Q. I know you thought Algis Budrys a tremendous writer.\n\nA. A.J. was a friend. I admired _Who_ [1958] enormously. The plot of _Rogue Moon_ [1960] is striking: Budrys tells us that if you destroyed a man here and reconstituted him somewhere else, you’re fooling yourself if you think that the reconstituted man is the same as the original man. The man who goes into the matter transmitter is going to go dark; he’s going to die. You can create a new man with the memories of the dead man; but that doesn’t mean that the dead man is still alive. The dead man is dead.\n\n...Q. Do you stay up with contemporary science fiction?\n\nA. Oh, I can’t. There’s too much to read, and I’ve had too many eye problems recently. I can read for maybe 15 minutes, and then I have to stop. At the time I was reading The Island of Dr. Moreau over and over again, I could read for eight hours a day, and sometimes I did....\n\n...Q. Your father was lucky to have such a job during the Depression.\n\nA. Absolutely. We traveled from place to place, wherever my father could find work. But say this: we always had a place to live; we always had food. One time I said as much to Ben Bova, and he replied, “Well, we didn’t.” His father was a day laborer, and sometimes he just could not get work. And if he didn’t, the Bovas did not eat. All of us from that time grew up with the feeling that you shouldn’t waste anything: you don’t waste rags, because rags can be useful.\n\n...Q. In the Soldier series [1986?2006], which begins shortly after the Battle of Plataea, are Latro’s gods real beings in the way that Silk’s gods are not? Latro has theophanies or, at least, he has strange visitations that his friends interpret as theophanies.\n\nA. I’m assuming that the gods actually exist and are there, although from a Christian perspective they should not be worshipped. But on the other hand it’s foolish to think that they’re not there, because they are.\n\n...I once met Archbishop Fulton Sheen, who we’re trying to get made a saint now. He looked at you and you felt that he knew all about you, that he had taken your worth, both positive and negative, and had formed a correct opinion about you, and that was it.\n\nQ. Did Sheen feel saintly? He was canny by your account; he had an intelligent eye.\n\nA. Sheen was a very intelligent man. He was smaller than I had expected. I suppose he was about five-five, five-six, or something like that.\n\n...Q. But did Sheen feel saintly? Did he have a quality of holiness?\n\nA. He had a quality of something really quite extraordinary. I was at a party once for locally important politicians a former governor of Illinois, for example. And Sheen came through as somebody who was actually on a higher level. A hundred years from now, he was the only one at the party who would still be important. The rest of us were lost.\n\n...Q. How did you write when you had a day job and a young family? And how did that change when writing became your full-time job?\n\nA. I would write for about an hour before work on workdays, and then I would write on Saturdays and Sundays. That left my afternoons and evenings free to play with my kids or read to them. And then in those days and believe me, I no longer do this anytime I woke up after 4:00 a.m., I stayed up and I wrote. I stopped writing when Rosemary called down to me that breakfast was ready. When I left off editing, I increased the time I spent writing by a factor of three.\n\n...Q. Your writing changed when you became a professional writer. When you stole time to write, your prose style was denser and more literary. _Peace_ and _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ are very worked-over books, with echoes of Proust and other writers you admired. Since you became a full-time writer, your prose has become looser: the paragraphs are shorter, you rely more on dialogue, and the entire tone is less poetic.\n\nA. It’s not that, really. It’s that I’ve gotten so much criticism for being unreadable and overcomplex and hard to get into and all this stuff. And I thought, “Well, I’ll loosen up.”\n\nQ. I find that hard to bear. While I admire many of the books after _The Book of the New Sun_, your early and middle prose style is very original. Nabokov would have recognized you as a being like himself. Yet this feeling that “Wolfe is too difficult” is not uncommon. When I asked the MIT Science Fiction Society what I should ask you, they wrote, “How should a science fiction reader who is more accustomed to [Larry] Niven, [Orson Scott] Card, or [David] Brin start reading Wolfe?”\n\nA. I think it’s probably _The Sorcerer’s House_. It’s an epistolary novel, and that seems to help people along. So long as they don’t get bothered by the fact that the style changes from one letter writer to another.\n\nA. See? You’re incapable of being simple.\n\n...Q. Sometimes those challenges can seem eccentrically difficult. In the _Soldier_ series you created a narrator who forgets everything at the end of every day.\n\nA. Yes, I came across an article about a brain injury that is perfectly real [anterograde amnesia]. People have short-term memory and long-term memory. One of the things you do in your sleep is transfer certain short-term memories into long-term memory. Unconsciously, you decide what’s really important: if it’s not, you forget it; if it is, you put it into long-term memory. If you destroy a certain portion of the brain, short-term memory is just overwritten. And I thought, that’s very interesting. In Severian, I had created a character who forgot nothing. And I thought: let’s do one of these guys who forgets everything.\n\n...Q. Alden Dennis Weer, the narrator of _Peace_, is unreliable in this particular sense: he’s dead, and doesn’t know it.\n\nA. He’s a ghost. Ghosts often don’t realize they’re dead. That’s the explanation of much of the behavior of ghosts that we find puzzling.\n\nQ. In _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_, does John Marsch understand that he’s really V.R.T., a “shadow child,” one of the aboriginal inhabitants of the colony planet, who is aping a man?\n\nA. Yes, he does. He knows he’s not a real Earthman, but he’s trying to talk himself into believing that he is. That’s what he wants to be.\n\n...Q. You’re very interested in anthropology. In _Peace_, one of the suitors of Weer’s Aunt Olivia, a Professor Peacock, is an anthropologist. Marsch in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ is one, too. \"Tracking Song\" imagines different types of intelligent-speaking hominids alive on the same planet at the same time, as Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans once coexisted.\n\nA. If intelligence is just a matter of evolution, what happens when a bunch of species get to a similar point at the same time? We are unhappy to find ourselves the only intelligent animals on our planet. It would be so interesting if we could find others. We can’t. But suppose we could: suppose the lion was intelligent and the deer were also intelligent. It’s very hard to imagine. You have to have sympathy with both. The lion cannot eat grass no matter how much you would like him to. But the deer do not wish to be eaten, and who can blame them for it?\n\nQ. In many of your fictions the short story \"La Befana\" [1973], for instance you imagine intelligent species coexisting on the same planet, who can talk to each other after a fashion but who are fundamentally different.\n\nA. Another intelligent species, but fundamentally different: the amazing thing would be to get to some foreign planet and discover people already on it, and now you’ve got to say, “How in the world did that happen?”\n\nQ. There’s a similar, eerie idea at the heart of \"The Hero as Werwolf\" [1975]: you imagine a future where humans have diverged into separate species after one population has evolved through biotechnology and another remains fixed as modern Homo sapiens.\n\nA. Some fool said, “If human beings evolved from apes, how come there are still apes?” But I always think about that from the ape’s standpoint. So I imagined two human races: some people who’ve evolved into something superior, and a few who haven’t. I wondered: well, what would it be like for them?\n\nQ. For the old-fashioned humans in \"The Hero as Werwolf\", what it’s like is a shamed scuffling around in the shadows, forced to live off the meat of Homo superior.\n\nA. That’s the hero as werwolf.\n\n...Q. Do you have a favorite amongst your own children? Is it _Peace_? Or is your “Book of Gold” _The Book of the New Sun)?\n\nA. Oh, it changes. Peace is a favorite, yes. But it floats around and around, you know...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Antonin Scriabin", "address": "kierkegaurdian at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T01:58:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Awesome, thanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2014 9:57 PM, \"Gwern Branwen\" wrote:\nTR has published a lengthy interview with Gene Wolfe. It asks plenty\nof standard questions, but also some interesting ones about some of\nthe short stories which have come up recently, particularly \"Tracking\nSong\" and \"The Hero as Werwolf\".\n\nhttp://www.technologyreview.com/news/529431/a-qa-with-gene-wolfe/ \"A\nQ&A with Gene Wolfe; A Twelve Tomorrows exclusive: Science fiction\nlegend Gene Wolfe looks back on his career\", Jason Pontin, 25 July\n2014" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...when Wolfe dropped out of college, he was drafted into the Army, and\nfought in Korea as a combat engineer. He returned home, by his own account,\n“a mess”: “I’d hit the floor at the slightest noise.” Rosemary, whom he met\nagain shortly after he was discharged, he says simply, “saved me.”\n\n...I met Gene Wolfe at home in Peoria, where he returned in 2013 after\nmany years in Barrington, Illinois. Although he had recently published a\nnew novel, _The Land Across_, and was working on another, it was a\nmelancholy visit. He had moved because his wife, suffering from Alzheimer’s\ndisease, wanted to go home. But not long after their return, she entered an\nassisted-living facility, and she died on December 14. Wolfe had been ill\nhimself, his eyesight and heart troubled, and for a time he had also been\nconfined to a facility. The day before I arrived, workers had found his\ndog, who had been missing for weeks: the animal had been hit by a car, and\nhad crawled behind a garden bush to die. The house was nearly empty except\nfor the author’s own books, some family photographs (including one of an\nimplausibly young Wolfe in uniform), a little furniture, and a makeshift\nshrine, with a statue of the Virgin, rosary beads, and a Bible, in front of\na window overlooking the back lawn.\n\nIn person, Wolfe is large, kindly, and unfailingly courteous. His hands\nare huge and spatulate. He sports an exuberant hussar?s moustache. He\nspeaks carefully, in a higher register than the voice of the books might\nsuggest. We talked the day after his 83rd birthday. [8 May 2014]\n\n...Q: What struck you about G.K. Chesterton?\n\nA: His charm; his willingness to follow an argument wherever it led.\n\nQ. What of the founders of science fiction?\n\nA. When I was a boy, I read all the pulp magazines, which were still\naround in those days. You’ve no doubt seen collector editions, but in those\ndays you could buy a pulp for 10 or 15 cents. One of my favorites was\n_Famous Fantastic Mysteries_, which reprinted good stuff from the turn of\nthe century. Once, they did Wells’s _The Island of Dr. Moreau_ [1896] as an\nentire issue. And I read it, and I absolutely loved it, and when I had read\nthe last page I went back to the first page, and I started again. And when\nI started my fourth reading I thought, “Well, I know everything that’s\ngoing to happen now and I’ll just put it aside for a while until I’ve kind\nof forgotten it, and then I’ll read it again.” And I never looked at it\nagain until I was about 50. And when I was that age, somebody wrote to me\nand said he was putting together one of those books that honor the hundred\nbest science fiction novels. It would have essays from writers like me, and\nthis person wanted me to do _The Island of Dr. Moreau_. I thought, “Gee, I\nremember that fondly. I will take him up on that. But first, obviously, I\nhave to get a copy of it and read it, since I haven’t read it since I was a\nkid.” And I did ?\n\nWonderful cover on that book, by the way wonderful! The man was\nbare-chested?not quite muscular enough to be a hero, but muscular and\ngood-looking and behind him is this enormous, shaggy monster. And the\nmonster has one hand on the man’s shoulder. In a most buddy-looking sort of\nway, you know. [Chuckles merrily.] I thought that was a lovely cover; I\nstill do ?\n\nAnyhow, I read the book and immediately saw there were things in there\nthat had completely sailed over me that were now hitting me like a brick." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The book starts when the narrator gets on a ship from some city in South\nAmerica. On the third day out, they ram a derelict and their ship sinks. He\nspends three days in a lifeboat with two men, a fellow passenger and a\nsailor, and he mentions, just in passing, that he never learned the name of\nthe sailor in the boat with him. And another thing: the sailor and the\npassenger fall overboard in a struggle, and the narrator is picked up by a\nboat carrying Dr. Moreau’s doctor, who gives him “a dose of some scarlet\nstuff, iced. It tasted like blood, and made me feel stronger.” That one,\ntoo, just whizzed by me. All this stuff, and I was too dumb to appreciate\nit as a boy!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Q. I know you thought Algis Budrys a tremendous writer.\n\nA. A.J. was a friend. I admired _Who_ [1958] enormously. The plot of\n_Rogue Moon_ [1960] is striking: Budrys tells us that if you destroyed a\nman here and reconstituted him somewhere else, you’re fooling yourself if\nyou think that the reconstituted man is the same as the original man. The\nman who goes into the matter transmitter is going to go dark; he’s going to\ndie. You can create a new man with the memories of the dead man; but that\ndoesn’t mean that the dead man is still alive. The dead man is dead.\n\n...Q. Do you stay up with contemporary science fiction?\n\nA. Oh, I can’t. There’s too much to read, and I’ve had too many eye\nproblems recently. I can read for maybe 15 minutes, and then I have to\nstop. At the time I was reading The Island of Dr. Moreau over and over\nagain, I could read for eight hours a day, and sometimes I did....\n\n...Q. Your father was lucky to have such a job during the Depression.\n\nA. Absolutely. We traveled from place to place, wherever my father could\nfind work. But say this: we always had a place to live; we always had food." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One time I said as much to Ben Bova, and he replied, “Well, we didn’t.” His\nfather was a day laborer, and sometimes he just could not get work. And if\nhe didn’t, the Bovas did not eat. All of us from that time grew up with the\nfeeling that you shouldn’t waste anything: you don’t waste rags, because\nrags can be useful." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Q. In the Soldier series [1986?2006], which begins shortly after the\nBattle of Plataea, are Latro’s gods real beings in the way that Silk’s gods\nare not? Latro has theophanies or, at least, he has strange visitations\nthat his friends interpret as theophanies.\n\nA. I’m assuming that the gods actually exist and are there, although\nfrom a Christian perspective they should not be worshipped. But on the\nother hand it’s foolish to think that they’re not there, because they are.\n\n...I once met Archbishop Fulton Sheen, who we’re trying to get made a\nsaint now. He looked at you and you felt that he knew all about you, that\nhe had taken your worth, both positive and negative, and had formed a\ncorrect opinion about you, and that was it.\n\nQ. Did Sheen feel saintly? He was canny by your account; he had an\nintelligent eye.\n\nA. Sheen was a very intelligent man. He was smaller than I had expected." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose he was about five-five, five-six, or something like that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Q. But did Sheen feel saintly? Did he have a quality of holiness?\n\nA. He had a quality of something really quite extraordinary. I was at a\nparty once for locally important politicians a former governor of Illinois,\nfor example. And Sheen came through as somebody who was actually on a\nhigher level. A hundred years from now, he was the only one at the party\nwho would still be important. The rest of us were lost.\n\n...Q. How did you write when you had a day job and a young family? And\nhow did that change when writing became your full-time job?\n\nA. I would write for about an hour before work on workdays, and then I\nwould write on Saturdays and Sundays. That left my afternoons and evenings\nfree to play with my kids or read to them. And then in those days and\nbelieve me, I no longer do this anytime I woke up after 4:00 a.m., I stayed\nup and I wrote. I stopped writing when Rosemary called down to me that\nbreakfast was ready. When I left off editing, I increased the time I spent\nwriting by a factor of three.\n\n...Q. Your writing changed when you became a professional writer. When\nyou stole time to write, your prose style was denser and more literary." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_Peace_ and _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ are very worked-over books, with\nechoes of Proust and other writers you admired. Since you became a\nfull-time writer, your prose has become looser: the paragraphs are shorter,\nyou rely more on dialogue, and the entire tone is less poetic." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. It’s not that, really. It’s that I’ve gotten so much criticism for\nbeing unreadable and overcomplex and hard to get into and all this stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I thought, “Well, I’ll loosen up.”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Q. I find that hard to bear. While I admire many of the books after _The\nBook of the New Sun_, your early and middle prose style is very original." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nabokov would have recognized you as a being like himself. Yet this feeling\nthat “Wolfe is too difficult” is not uncommon. When I asked the MIT Science\nFiction Society what I should ask you, they wrote, “How should a science\nfiction reader who is more accustomed to [Larry] Niven, [Orson Scott] Card,\nor [David] Brin start reading Wolfe?”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. I think it’s probably _The Sorcerer’s House_. It’s an epistolary\nnovel, and that seems to help people along. So long as they don’t get\nbothered by the fact that the style changes from one letter writer to\nanother.\n\nA. See? You’re incapable of being simple.\n\n...Q. Sometimes those challenges can seem eccentrically difficult. In\nthe _Soldier_ series you created a narrator who forgets everything at the\nend of every day.\n\nA. Yes, I came across an article about a brain injury that is perfectly\nreal [anterograde amnesia]. People have short-term memory and long-term\nmemory. One of the things you do in your sleep is transfer certain\nshort-term memories into long-term memory. Unconsciously, you decide what’s\nreally important: if it’s not, you forget it; if it is, you put it into\nlong-term memory. If you destroy a certain portion of the brain, short-term\nmemory is just overwritten. And I thought, that’s very interesting. In\nSeverian, I had created a character who forgot nothing. And I thought:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "let’s do one of these guys who forgets everything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...Q. Alden Dennis Weer, the narrator of _Peace_, is unreliable in this\nparticular sense: he’s dead, and doesn’t know it.\n\nA. He’s a ghost. Ghosts often don’t realize they’re dead. That’s the\nexplanation of much of the behavior of ghosts that we find puzzling.\n\nQ. In _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_, does John Marsch understand that\nhe’s really V.R.T., a “shadow child,” one of the aboriginal inhabitants of\nthe colony planet, who is aping a man?\n\nA. Yes, he does. He knows he’s not a real Earthman, but he’s trying to\ntalk himself into believing that he is. That’s what he wants to be.\n\n...Q. You’re very interested in anthropology. In _Peace_, one of the\nsuitors of Weer’s Aunt Olivia, a Professor Peacock, is an anthropologist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marsch in _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_ is one, too. \"Tracking Song\"\nimagines different types of intelligent-speaking hominids alive on the same\nplanet at the same time, as Neanderthals and anatomically modern humans\nonce coexisted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. If intelligence is just a matter of evolution, what happens when a\nbunch of species get to a similar point at the same time? We are unhappy to\nfind ourselves the only intelligent animals on our planet. It would be so\ninteresting if we could find others. We can’t. But suppose we could:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "suppose the lion was intelligent and the deer were also intelligent. It’s\nvery hard to imagine. You have to have sympathy with both. The lion cannot\neat grass no matter how much you would like him to. But the deer do not\nwish to be eaten, and who can blame them for it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Q. In many of your fictions the short story \"La Befana\" [1973], for\ninstance you imagine intelligent species coexisting on the same planet, who\ncan talk to each other after a fashion but who are fundamentally different.\n\nA. Another intelligent species, but fundamentally different: the amazing\nthing would be to get to some foreign planet and discover people already on\nit, and now you’ve got to say, “How in the world did that happen?”\n\nQ. There’s a similar, eerie idea at the heart of \"The Hero as Werwolf\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[1975]: you imagine a future where humans have diverged into separate\nspecies after one population has evolved through biotechnology and another\nremains fixed as modern Homo sapiens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. Some fool said, “If human beings evolved from apes, how come there\nare still apes?” But I always think about that from the ape’s standpoint." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So I imagined two human races: some people who’ve evolved into something\nsuperior, and a few who haven’t. I wondered: well, what would it be like\nfor them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Q. For the old-fashioned humans in \"The Hero as Werwolf\", what it’s like\nis a shamed scuffling around in the shadows, forced to live off the meat of\nHomo superior.\n\nA. That’s the hero as werwolf.\n\n...Q. Do you have a favorite amongst your own children? Is it _Peace_?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or is your “Book of Gold” _The Book of the New Sun)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A. Oh, it changes. Peace is a favorite, yes. But it floats around and\naround, you know...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F82CB13-F313-4183-B640-E4945CC6BB71@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Matthew King", "address": "automatthew at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T06:20:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is an amazing and suprising interview. Not like anything others I've read before." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Knight", "address": "jacobeiserman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T06:41:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<8F82CB13-F313-4183-B640-E4945CC6BB71@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting indeed.\n\nAnd Peoria now...only 1.5 hours from Champaign. Hmmm...wonder if Mr. Wolfe\nwould appreciate a delivery of homemade cookies. I nabbed a picture with\nhim at the award ceremony in the crazy music box house, but wasn't able to\nstay for the banquet (cash-strapped grad student, you know the drill...that\nmonth I literally couldn't afford the extra $75 or whatever it was, and\nI'll probably always regret that. Still, I got the picture, and even made\nhim laugh for a second or two. Appreciated that he was willing to stop, in\nthe midst of being whisked from place to place).\n\nWolfe is obviously too subtle for me at most times (which is why I read\nthis list), and I'm not sure what he's getting at with \"never learned the\nname of the sailor\" thing above. The three days and bloody drink make me\nthink of some kind of undead resurrection, but I don't know (and also\nhaven't read Dr. Moreau...). Any ideas?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Matthew King wrote:\nThat is an amazing and suprising interview. Not like anything others I've\nread before.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53C45066006FEE0C@smtpout07.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "mo at holkar.net" }, "date": "2014-07-28T08:40:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 07:41 28/07/2014, Matthew wrote:\nWolfe is obviously too subtle for me at most times (which is why I \nread this list), and I'm not sure what he's getting at with \"never \nlearned the name of the sailor\" thing above. The three days and \nbloody drink make me think of some kind of undead resurrection, but \nI don't know (and also haven't read Dr. Moreau...). Any ideas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given Wolfe's preoccupations, it seems likely he is reading this as \nreferring to the crucifixion, which Christ spends in the company of \ntwo thieves; and after three days he is returned to life.\n\nWhether Wells meant it that way, we can only speculate, but he did \nhave religious tendencies (and of course the image is a potent one \neven for non-religious people who are writing for Western culture).\n\n\nMo " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53D649D9.5000009@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2014-07-28T13:02:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a very interesting interview, much less cagey than usual for Wolfe. \nThe straightforward \"He's a ghost\" about Weer, and even more the \nstatement that Marsch \"knows he's not a real Earthman, but he's trying \nto talk himself into believing that he is\".\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/2014 9:56 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nTR has published a lengthy interview with Gene Wolfe. It asks plenty\nof standard questions, but also some interesting ones about some of\nthe short stories which have come up recently, particularly \"Tracking\nSong\" and \"The Hero as Werwolf\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor and Chair\nDept. of Mathematics and Statistics\nColby College Editor, Carus Mathematical Monographs\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/publications/maa-reviews\n\nBecause as I look around at the state of this nation and see all of the weak little pampered candy-asses that are whining about this or protesting that, I'd be afraid to leave the fate of this nation entirely up to them.\n -- First Lt. Bruce Bishop explains why he plans\n to re-enlist in the Utah National Guard" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D1787CD892F0BA-3A4-FF0@webmail-d252.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "jbarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T13:13:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't Wolfe seeing resurrection, the eucharist, and Peter the fisherman, not to mention the boat as the church?\n\nJohn\n\n\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: jacobeiserman at gmail.com\nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, Jul 27, 2014 9:41 pm\nSubject: Re: (urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_\n\n\n\nVery interesting indeed.\nAnd Peoria now...only 1.5 hours from Champaign. Hmmm...wonder if Mr. Wolfe would appreciate a delivery of homemade cookies. I nabbed a picture with him at the award ceremony in the crazy music box house, but wasn't able to stay for the banquet (cash-strapped grad student, you know the drill...that month I literally couldn't afford the extra $75 or whatever it was, and I'll probably always regret that. Still, I got the picture, and even made him laugh for a second or two. Appreciated that he was willing to stop, in the midst of being whisked from place to place).\n\nWolfe is obviously too subtle for me at most times (which is why I read this list), and I'm not sure what he's getting at with \"never learned the name of the sailor\" thing above. The three days and bloody drink make me think of some kind of undead resurrection, but I don't know (and also haven't read Dr. Moreau...). Any ideas?\n\nOn Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 1:20 AM, Matthew King wrote:\n\nThat is an amazing and suprising interview. Not like anything others I've read before.\n\n\nUrth Mailing List\n\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\n\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T15:29:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53D649D9.5000009@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fernando said:\n\nIt's a very interesting interview, much less cagey than usual for Wolfe.\nThe straightforward \"He's a ghost\" about Weer, and even more the statement\nthat Marsch \"knows he's not a real Earthman, but he's trying to talk\nhimself into believing that he is\".\n\nFernando\n\nIt is a nice interview but the beginning touches on tragic, as well as his\ndoubts that he will be remembered.\n\nOf course he still hasn't said that pretty much everyone but cloned number\n5 is an abo, (\"someday they (the Abos who pretend to be humans) will want\nus (real humans to copy)\" and that Marsch is a different kind of imitator,\na shadow child infection via cat bite incarcerated by Abos who believe they\nare human, too. Ironically the interviewer fails to differentiate between\nshadow children and Abos, allowing Wolfe to answer the question fairly\nhonestly if he ignores the VRT portion. (The useless hand of the Abos is\nport mimizon, with its fingers and thumb and no new buildings in 140 years.)\n\nSo even straightforward Wolfe isn't really that straightforward." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-07-28T15:30:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53D649D9.5000009@colby.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 4:40 AM, Mo Holkar wrote:\nGiven Wolfe's preoccupations, it seems likely he is reading this as\nreferring to the crucifixion, which Christ spends in the company of two\nthieves; and after three days he is returned to life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's hard not to read _Island of Dr Moreau_ as a twisted Garden of\nEden scenario: a tropical paradise isolated from the rest of the\nworld, overseen by a benevolent creator, who raises up animals into\nmen who think and reason and have 'knowledge of Good and Evil' and try\nto give in to the temptations they face such as predation. Of course,\nMoreau is merely human and so it's doomed to go worse than the\noriginal Garden of Eden. I'm far from the first to make that\ncomparison, and Wolfewiki remarks in the connected story \"The Island\nOf Doctor Death And Other Stories\"\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=Stories.TheIslandOfDoctorDeathAndOtherStories\nthat" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The real role that Dr. Death is playing in Tackie's mind is that of the creator (and thus to some extent the deity as well). This is supported in the first big exchange in the book between Ransom and Dr. Death, where Ransom asks the doctor if he has made the human-animal hybrids populating the island. Dr. Death replies with a comparison to the Garden of Eden [which is a significant link to The Death of Doctor Island also], and draws the parallel: \"I am God and Nature is Adam\". As for the identity of the creator in Tackie's life, it is of course Tackie himself, with his love of the book so intense he is making the characters come alive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 9:02 AM, Fernando Q. Gouvea wrote:\nIt's a very interesting interview, much less cagey than usual for Wolfe. The\nstraightforward \"He's a ghost\" about Weer, and even more the statement that\nMarsch \"knows he's not a real Earthman, but he's trying to talk himself into\nbelieving that he is\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I was struck by that too. Maybe he's too tired to be as playful\nas he used to be." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53D67EFA.8010000@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T16:48:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 28/07/2014 16:29, Marc Aramini wrote:\n Of course he still hasn't said that pretty much everyone but\ncloned number 5 is an abo, (\"someday they (the Abos who\npretend to be humans) will want us (real humans to copy)\"\nand that Marsch is a different kind of imitator, a shadow\nchild infection via cat bite incarcerated by Abos who believe\nthey are human, too. Ironically the interviewer fails to\ndifferentiate between shadow children and Abos, allowing\nWolfe to answer the question fairly honestly if he ignores\nthe VRT portion. (The useless hand of the Abos is port\nmimizon, with its fingers and thumb and no new buildings\nin 140 years.)\n\nSo even straightforward Wolfe isn't really that straightforward." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The interview question specifically referred to VRT, and the failure to \ndifferentiate the Shadow Children from the Sainte Anne aborigines \ndoesn't really make any difference that I can see. I think you're \nstretching quite a bit here. There is no indication in the text of an \ninfection process by which a human is taken over by an aborigine, and \nsuch a process contradicts the logic of the story in multiple ways, for \nexample:\n\n- Marsch was bitten by a cat, who was not VRT. But Marsch's later \nimitator, however he arose, was VRT, not the previous occupant of the \ncat or a 'child' of the previous occupant of the cat. I do not assume \nmore than that Marsch died somehow, but it's very likely that copying \nsomeone involves consuming them in some fashion, so I won't rule it out. \n(Who killed the cat? I am inclined to suspect it was the first step in \nVRT's attempt to 'convince himself' he was human, by cutting himself off \nfrom his aboriginal origin.)\n\n- If the imitation proceeds by way of infection, why would \nshape-changing ever be necessary or relevant? The shape-changing \nability of VRT's mother is referenced. Most people can't do that.\n\n- New Marsch has the characteristic green eyes of the aborigines. In an \nalmost clunky passage of the second book, it is drummed into us that for \nthe Marshmen \"green is the colour of eyes\". Most people don't.\n\nAs for \"Veil's Hypothesis\", a wholesale takeover of first one planet and \nthen, presumably the other, during which period both planets are still \nreceiving colonists from Earth, *while nobody notices* is simply not \ncredible in terms of the storyline. Nor is there any indication that \nhumans have forgotten how to use tools. The lack of new buildings in \nPort Mimizon is the result of depopulation. Veil's Hypothesis is as Veil \nsaid, a fifty pound hypothesis to explain man's inhumanity to man, a \ntheme which was precisely the punchline to another story discussed \nrecently: _Our Neighbour, By David Copperfield_.\n\nTo my mind, the history and origin of the human-mimicking abos is set \nout very clearly in the second book, which is presumably VRT's \nunderstanding of what happened, gleaned from the stories of his mother \nand perhaps other abo contacts. If we are going to accuse him of \ninventing a fake history, we need not only a coherent alternative \n(peoples' mileage may vary on what is coherent) but a reason for him to \ndo it. It is certainly not an attempt to convince himself he is human. \n[As for him trying to convince himself he is human, so long as it is not \naccepted too literally, I would think that a natural interpretation for \nanyone reading VRT.]\n\nSo I don't think there is anything un-straighforward here.\n\nWolfe's style is allusive, he rarely gives specifics of distance or time \nby which a detective could hang him, the story resonates with tales of \nEarthly colonisation in which the abos and the colonisers are indeed one \nspecies. It's easy to find seeming hints leading in all directions, \nBut it can't be denied that in the second book, we are given a specific \norigin story, and any hypothesis has to make sense in terms of either \naccepting that story, or explaining why Marsch constructed such an \nelaborate lie.\n\nI think one could make a better case that everyone is human, than that \neveryone is abo.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T17:32:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53D67EFA.8010000@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for posting this, Gwern. Lots of fascinating little tidbits,\nand some real gold too. But sad, too, to read about GW's health and\nthe loss of his dog." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T18:31:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53D67EFA.8010000@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The questioner Pontin conflates VRT with a shadow child in the question\nerroneously. VRT is \"variance reduction techniques\", an engineering term\nfor approximation. When Ultan's library publishes my forty page paper it\nwill address all that stuff you bring up, Gerry. Unless you want me to\nsend you a copy off list. At the end of a story both Sandwalker and the\nhuman landers are switched, Eastwind by a bite echoed in the cat bite at\nwhich point he kills his brother (and later Trenchard claims to be\ndescended from the east wind) and the landers suddenly slaughter when\n\"they\" don't know what open hands mean - though it is the aborigines who\nshouldn't know what open hands mean- humans do. That weird pronoun shift\nindicates \"they\" have already empathized with the landers And switched\nperspectives with them, though poorly. Later it is called ill fated and in\nthe section of VRT it is assumed that eastwind survives that encounter.\n\nIf victor takes the place if Marsch, then victor's death scene and the tree\nteaching out for him as he falls is an outright lie. Why didn't he want to\ngo see his parents?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, July 28, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 28/07/2014 16:29, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course he still hasn't said that pretty much everyone but\ncloned number 5 is an abo, (\"someday they (the Abos who\npretend to be humans) will want us (real humans to copy)\"\nand that Marsch is a different kind of imitator, a shadow\nchild infection via cat bite incarcerated by Abos who believe\nthey are human, too. Ironically the interviewer fails to\ndifferentiate between shadow children and Abos, allowing\nWolfe to answer the question fairly honestly if he ignores\nthe VRT portion. (The useless hand of the Abos is port\nmimizon, with its fingers and thumb and no new buildings\nin 140 years.)\n\nSo even straightforward Wolfe isn't really that straightforward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The interview question specifically referred to VRT, and the failure to\ndifferentiate the Shadow Children from the Sainte Anne aborigines doesn't\nreally make any difference that I can see. I think you're stretching\nquite a bit here. There is no indication in the text of an infection\nprocess by which a human is taken over by an aborigine, and such a process\ncontradicts the logic of the story in multiple ways, for example:\n\n- Marsch was bitten by a cat, who was not VRT. But Marsch's later\nimitator, however he arose, was VRT, not the previous occupant of the cat\nor a 'child' of the previous occupant of the cat. I do not assume more\nthan that Marsch died somehow, but it's very likely that copying someone\ninvolves consuming them in some fashion, so I won't rule it out. (Who\nkilled the cat? I am inclined to suspect it was the first step in VRT's\nattempt to 'convince himself' he was human, by cutting himself off from his\naboriginal origin.)\n\n- If the imitation proceeds by way of infection, why would shape-changing\never be necessary or relevant? The shape-changing ability of VRT's mother\nis referenced. Most people can't do that.\n\n- New Marsch has the characteristic green eyes of the aborigines. In an\nalmost clunky passage of the second book, it is drummed into us that for\nthe Marshmen \"green is the colour of eyes\". Most people don't.\n\nAs for \"Veil's Hypothesis\", a wholesale takeover of first one planet and\nthen, presumably the other, during which period both planets are still\nreceiving colonists from Earth, *while nobody notices* is simply not\ncredible in terms of the storyline. Nor is there any indication that\nhumans have forgotten how to use tools. The lack of new buildings in Port\nMimizon is the result of depopulation. Veil's Hypothesis is as Veil said,\na fifty pound hypothesis to explain man's inhumanity to man, a theme which\nwas precisely the punchline to another story discussed recently: _Our\nNeighbour, By David Copperfield_.\n\nTo my mind, the history and origin of the human-mimicking abos is set out\nvery clearly in the second book, which is presumably VRT's understanding of\nwhat happened, gleaned from the stories of his mother and perhaps other abo\ncontacts. If we are going to accuse him of inventing a fake history, we\nneed not only a coherent alternative (peoples' mileage may vary on what is\ncoherent) but a reason for him to do it. It is certainly not an attempt to\nconvince himself he is human. [As for him trying to convince himself he is\nhuman, so long as it is not accepted too literally, I would think that a\nnatural interpretation for anyone reading VRT.]\n\nSo I don't think there is anything un-straighforward here.\n\nWolfe's style is allusive, he rarely gives specifics of distance or time\nby which a detective could hang him, the story resonates with tales of\nEarthly colonisation in which the abos and the colonisers are indeed one\nspecies. It's easy to find seeming hints leading in all directions, But\nit can't be denied that in the second book, we are given a specific origin\nstory, and any hypothesis has to make sense in terms of either accepting\nthat story, or explaining why Marsch constructed such an elaborate lie.\n\nI think one could make a better case that everyone is human, than that\neveryone is abo.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T18:33:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The tree reaching out for him - sorry for several typos below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, July 28, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe questioner Pontin conflates VRT with a shadow child in the question\nerroneously. VRT is \"variance reduction techniques\", an engineering term\nfor approximation. When Ultan's library publishes my forty page paper it\nwill address all that stuff you bring up, Gerry. Unless you want me to\nsend you a copy off list. At the end of a story both Sandwalker and the\nhuman landers are switched, Eastwind by a bite echoed in the cat bite at\nwhich point he kills his brother (and later Trenchard claims to be\ndescended from the east wind) and the landers suddenly slaughter when\n\"they\" don't know what open hands mean - though it is the aborigines who\nshouldn't know what open hands mean- humans do. That weird pronoun shift\nindicates \"they\" have already empathized with the landers And switched\nperspectives with them, though poorly. Later it is called ill fated and in\nthe section of VRT it is assumed that eastwind survives that encounter.\n\nIf victor takes the place if Marsch, then victor's death scene and the\ntree teaching out for him as he falls is an outright lie. Why didn't he\nwant to go see his parents?\n\nOn Monday, July 28, 2014, Gerry Quinn > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 28/07/2014 16:29, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course he still hasn't said that pretty much everyone but\ncloned number 5 is an abo, (\"someday they (the Abos who\npretend to be humans) will want us (real humans to copy)\"\nand that Marsch is a different kind of imitator, a shadow\nchild infection via cat bite incarcerated by Abos who believe\nthey are human, too. Ironically the interviewer fails to\ndifferentiate between shadow children and Abos, allowing\nWolfe to answer the question fairly honestly if he ignores\nthe VRT portion. (The useless hand of the Abos is port\nmimizon, with its fingers and thumb and no new buildings\nin 140 years.)\n\nSo even straightforward Wolfe isn't really that straightforward." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The interview question specifically referred to VRT, and the failure to\ndifferentiate the Shadow Children from the Sainte Anne aborigines doesn't\nreally make any difference that I can see. I think you're stretching\nquite a bit here. There is no indication in the text of an infection\nprocess by which a human is taken over by an aborigine, and such a process\ncontradicts the logic of the story in multiple ways, for example:\n\n- Marsch was bitten by a cat, who was not VRT. But Marsch's later\nimitator, however he arose, was VRT, not the previous occupant of the cat\nor a 'child' of the previous occupant of the cat. I do not assume more\nthan that Marsch died somehow, but it's very likely that copying someone\ninvolves consuming them in some fashion, so I won't rule it out. (Who\nkilled the cat? I am inclined to suspect it was the first step in VRT's\nattempt to 'convince himself' he was human, by cutting himself off from his\naboriginal origin.)\n\n- If the imitation proceeds by way of infection, why would shape-changing\never be necessary or relevant? The shape-changing ability of VRT's mother\nis referenced. Most people can't do that.\n\n- New Marsch has the characteristic green eyes of the aborigines. In an\nalmost clunky passage of the second book, it is drummed into us that for\nthe Marshmen \"green is the colour of eyes\". Most people don't.\n\nAs for \"Veil's Hypothesis\", a wholesale takeover of first one planet and\nthen, presumably the other, during which period both planets are still\nreceiving colonists from Earth, *while nobody notices* is simply not\ncredible in terms of the storyline. Nor is there any indication that\nhumans have forgotten how to use tools. The lack of new buildings in Port\nMimizon is the result of depopulation. Veil's Hypothesis is as Veil said,\na fifty pound hypothesis to explain man's inhumanity to man, a theme which\nwas precisely the punchline to another story discussed recently: _Our\nNeighbour, By David Copperfield_.\n\nTo my mind, the history and origin of the human-mimicking abos is set out\nvery clearly in the second book, which is presumably VRT's understanding of\nwhat happened, gleaned from the stories of his mother and perhaps other abo\ncontacts. If we are going to accuse him of inventing a fake history, we\nneed not only a coherent alternative (peoples' mileage may vary on what is\ncoherent) but a reason for him to do it. It is certainly not an attempt to\nconvince himself he is human. [As for him trying to convince himself he is\nhuman, so long as it is not accepted too literally, I would think that a\nnatural interpretation for anyone reading VRT.]\n\nSo I don't think there is anything un-straighforward here.\n\nWolfe's style is allusive, he rarely gives specifics of distance or time\nby which a detective could hang him, the story resonates with tales of\nEarthly colonisation in which the abos and the colonisers are indeed one\nspecies. It's easy to find seeming hints leading in all directions, But\nit can't be denied that in the second book, we are given a specific origin\nstory, and any hypothesis has to make sense in terms of either accepting\nthat story, or explaining why Marsch constructed such an elaborate lie.\n\nI think one could make a better case that everyone is human, than that\neveryone is abo.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53D6A888.6080202@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T19:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 28/07/2014 19:31, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIf victor takes the place if Marsch, then victor's death scene and the \ntree teaching out for him as he falls is an outright lie. Why didn't \nhe want to go see his parents?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This lie is easy to explain - Victor has taken the place af Marsch, so \nhe must invent a description of his own.\n\nAnd how can he visit his parents? He has become someone else.\n\nAlso: \"When he came close to them they extended their hands, open, and \nsmiled; but he [Sandwalker] did not understand that open hands meant (or \nhad meant, once) that they held no weapons. His people had never known \nweapons.\" No pronoun shift, in my edition anyway. No slaughter either, \nnot then at least. In VRT there are stories of an aboriginal shaman \nwhose name is given in versions of both Eastwind and Sandwalker; clearly \nVRT was riffing off this when he wrote \"A Story\". (He believes the \nhistory, but of course he invented the specific characters.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T20:54:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53D6A888.6080202@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't have to be a lie if something else can explain it. \"Nope, whole\nscene is fabricated.\" Why two species of alien if both won't be used? Wolfe\nlikes very elaborate games or there would be only one imitative species.\nThere's a reason we can still argue about it after 40 years though. The\npuzzles are sometimes over constructed and offer a nice false conclusion as\nwell." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, July 28, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 28/07/2014 19:31, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If victor takes the place if Marsch, then victor's death scene and the\ntree teaching out for him as he falls is an outright lie. Why didn't he\nwant to go see his parents?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This lie is easy to explain - Victor has taken the place af Marsch, so he\nmust invent a description of his own.\n\nAnd how can he visit his parents? He has become someone else.\n\nAlso: \"When he came close to them they extended their hands, open, and\nsmiled; but he [Sandwalker] did not understand that open hands meant (or\nhad meant, once) that they held no weapons. His people had never known\nweapons.\" No pronoun shift, in my edition anyway. No slaughter either, not\nthen at least. In VRT there are stories of an aboriginal shaman whose name\nis given in versions of both Eastwind and Sandwalker; clearly VRT was\nriffing off this when he wrote \"A Story\". (He believes the history, but of\ncourse he invented the specific characters.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53D6C033.9040905@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-07-28T21:27:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 28/07/2014 21:54, Marc Aramini wrote:\nDoesn't have to be a lie if something else can explain it. \"Nope, \nwhole scene is fabricated.\" Why two species of alien if both won't be \nused? Wolfe likes very elaborate games or there would be only one \nimitative species. There's a reason we can still argue about it after \n40 years though. The puzzles are sometimes over constructed and offer \na nice false conclusion as well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When you kill someone (or he dies alone) and you steal his identity, you \nneed to fabricate a story of your own death, and explain why the body \ncan't be found. There's a logical reason for this lie.\n\nThere is only one imitative species. \"Once there was a people using \ntheir hands - when they had hands - only to take food\" - that's the \nSainte Anne aborigines before humans came. \"There came among them a \npeople who crossed from star to star\" - that's the original human \ndiscoverers, who were imitated by the aborigines, and who themselves \n(d)evolved into the Shadow Children.\n\nThat's the only time, I think, when the Old Wise One uses the third \nperson, and the last sentence of the paragraph explains it: \"Once I was \nsure I knew who the first were, and the second; now I am no longer \nsure.\" The Shadow Children's numbers have been reduced to three, and \nthe mind of the OWO is constructed increasingly from Sandwalker's.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-01T21:20:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53D6C033.9040905@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: severiansola at hotmail.com\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_\nDate: Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:07:24 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: There is only one imitative species" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, one evolving imitative species I would say. Actually, since the definition of \"species\"\n\ninvolves mating and reproducing, the process of direct imitation as an evolutionary\n\nmechanism makes the \"species\" label rather inapplicable.\n\n\n\nWe are presented with two scenarios for the origin of Shadow Children.\n\n\n1. They are the original inhabitants of the St Anne who evolved from shadowy, telepathic,\n\nunderground creatures who become abos on their first encounter with humans.\n\n\nor\n\n\n2. They are the \"(d)evolved\" result of shipwrecked humans living on Ste Anne and chewing that\n\nweird hallucinogenic stuff.\n\n\n\nStories are told which support each scenario to the point of cancelling each other out.\n\nIf we are to know the true story it must come from incidental evidence in the text.\n\n\nThe incidental evidence I find for Scenario #1. is:\n\n\nA. the name Shadow Children, a name we would expect for the descendants of underground shadowy\n\nthings.\n\n\nB. The use of nonsensical geography such as Atlantis, Mu and Gondwanaland used in the attempt\n\nto establish an Earth origin for the Shadow Children which seems like an alien-type mistake to\n\nmake.\n\n\nC. \"(D)evolution\" ought to turn humans into apes, not Shadow Children.\n\n\nD. The indeterminate, plural nature of Shadow Children is like nothing found on Earth. How\n\ncould use of a chemical create such an alien change in human DNA?\n\n\nE. The evolutionary process of telepathic shadow creatures to Shadow Children to Abos to (almost)\n\npure Human is an elegant one tracing a continuing path from more primitive and more mystic to less primitive and less mystic. Shadow Children being a stunted, dead-end human result is inelegant\n\nand doesn't fit any pattern, like a leftover jigsaw puzzle piece.\n\n\nF. As Gerry notes, if you kill something and replace it, a lie has to be told to explain it.\nShadow Children falsely explained as degenerate humans would serve the purpose of such a lie.\n\n\nThere does not appear to be any purpose for a lie told about a mystic, domestic, shadowy\n\norigin to Shadow Children.\n\n\n\nI am not aware of any incidental evidence which supports Scenario #2. Perhaps others are aware\n\nof some. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53DCD086.4030502@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-02T11:50:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/08/2014 22:20, Lee wrote:\n\nWe are presented with two scenarios for the origin of Shadow Children.\n\n1. They are the original inhabitants of the St Anne who evolved from shadowy, telepathic, underground creatures who become abos on their first encounter with humans.\n\n2. They are the \"(d)evolved\" result of shipwrecked humans living on Ste Anne and chewing that weird hallucinogenic stuff.\n\nStories are told which support each scenario to the point of cancelling each other out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the \ntrilogy. The entire novella takes the form of an SF mystery in which \n'scenario 2' is slowly elucidated. In all, quite a number of pages are \ncarefully devoted to elucidating this scenario. It is stated as a fact \nseveral times.\n\nWhere do you find a story that supports 'scenario 1'?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4676B389-284E-4D55-BE43-CA1E2A802C6E@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-02T14:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53DCD086.4030502@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 02/08/2014, ?s 12:50, Gerry Quinn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/08/2014 22:20, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We are presented with two scenarios for the origin of Shadow Children.\n\n1. They are the original inhabitants of the St Anne who evolved from shadowy, telepathic, underground creatures who become abos on their first encounter with humans.\n\n2. They are the \"(d)evolved\" result of shipwrecked humans living on Ste Anne and chewing that weird hallucinogenic stuff.\n\nStories are told which support each scenario to the point of cancelling each other out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the trilogy. The entire novella takes the form of an SF mystery in which 'scenario 2' is slowly elucidated. In all, quite a number of pages are carefully devoted to elucidating this scenario. It is stated as a fact several times.\n\nWhere do you find a story that supports 'scenario 1'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Keeping it all Wolfean there's the question - are the scenarios different in the end? (We do know the end is the same!, since the end is what we are trying to explain).\n\nI found the observation, in the interview, that a guy who got dematerialised and then rematerialised, actually dies, very interesting. Wolfe had that in mind from the start when he got into exploring identity, and that puts a whole new perspective into it, which I haven't yet had the leisure to study." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-04T14:18:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<4676B389-284E-4D55-BE43-CA1E2A802C6E@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Shadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the \ntrilogy. The entire novella takes the form of an SF mystery in which \n'scenario 2' is slowly elucidated. In all, quite a number of pages are \ncarefully devoted to elucidating this scenario. It is stated as a fact \nseveral times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Where do you find a story that supports 'scenario 1'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you have already answered that question- in the second novella of the trilogy,\n\nnamed: \"A Story\" by John V. Marsch, that being the only place Shadow Children are referenced.\n\n\nWhether abos have replaced humans is a primary, superficial mystery (one to which even Wolfe has\n\npublicly revealed the answer). But a deeper, more veiled mystery has been embedded in the\n\nstory- what is the origin of Abos?\n\n\nThey look human. But they can't use tools very well, presumably because they superficially\n\ncan imitate hands but not the deeper coordinating neuro-muscular structures. So what did\n\nAbos look like before they looked human? Are we given any clues?\n\n\nShadow Children seem a likely suspect for a first attempt at imitating a human being (much like\n\n\"Zak\" in UotNS). Are Shadow Children a primitive version of Abos? There are no other ape or monkey\n\nor other proto-human creatures seen on Ste Anne so it is a possibility which can't be ignored.\n\n\nAs was correctly noted previously, if one sentient species has imitated and replaced another, \n\na lie must be formulated to explain certain inconsistencies. So are there any lies we can \n\nidentify in the story of Shadow Children?\n\n\nWe are given the story of Shadow Children as degenerate humans. But we are also given the story \n\nthat they are native, shadowy telepathic creatures. Which is the lie and which is the truth? \n\nEven The Old Wise One says he can't remember anymore.\n\n\nIf the human origin were the truth, we would expect Shadow Children to be more\n\n\"handy\" than Abos. If the Shadow Children were a more primitive version of Abos we would\n\nexpect them to be even less \"handy\" than Abos, being a step further removed from humans. \n\n\nI think it is clear that Shadow Children are even less \"handy\" than Abos, thus their proto-Abo\n\nstatus is more likely the truth and their human origin is more likely the lie. Their telepathy \n\nwould seem to further establish the domestic origin as the true story.\n\n\n\nI think a similar scenario plays out on Green and Blue in Short Sun. Wolfe is not going to\n\ncommit the Star Trek error of making human beings simultaneously, independently evolved on\n\nmultiple planets across the galaxy. If there are human shaped beings found on an uncolonized alien \n\nplanet, they have to be an imitative species copying us, such as Shadow Children, Abos and Inhumi. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-04T19:18:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: severiansola at hotmail.com\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_\nDate: Mon, 4 Aug 2014 10:18:32 -0400" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Shadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the\ntrilogy. The entire novella takes the form of an SF mystery in which\n'scenario 2' is slowly elucidated. In all, quite a number of pages are\ncarefully devoted to elucidating this scenario. It is stated as a fact\nseveral times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Where do you find a story that supports 'scenario 1'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, you have already answered that question- in the second novella of the trilogy,\n\nnamed: \"A Story\" by John V. Marsch, that being the only place Shadow Children are referenced.\n\n\nWhether abos have replaced humans is a primary, superficial mystery (one to which even Wolfe has\n\npublicly revealed the answer). But a deeper, more veiled mystery has been embedded in the\n\nstory- what is the origin of Abos?\n\n\nThey look human. But they can't use tools very well, presumably because they superficially\n\ncan imitate hands but not the deeper coordinating neuro-muscular structures. So what did\n\nAbos look like before they looked human? Are we given any clues?\n\n\nShadow Children seem a likely suspect for a first attempt at imitating a human being (much like\n\n\"Zak\" in UotNS). Are Shadow Children a primitive version of Abos? There are no other ape or monkey\n\nor other proto-human creatures seen on Ste Anne so it is a possibility which can't be ignored.\n\n\nAs was correctly noted previously, if one sentient species has imitated and replaced another,\n\na lie must be formulated to explain certain inconsistencies. So are there any lies we can\n\nidentify in the story of Shadow Children?\n\n\nWe are given the story of Shadow Children as degenerate humans. But we are also given the story\n\nthat they are native, shadowy telepathic creatures. Which is the lie and which is the truth?\n\nEven The Old Wise One says he can't remember anymore.\n\n\nIf the human origin were the truth, we would expect Shadow Children to be more\n\n\"handy\" than Abos. If the Shadow Children were a more primitive version of Abos we would\n\nexpect them to be even less \"handy\" than Abos, being a step further removed from humans.\n\n\nI think it is clear that Shadow Children are even less \"handy\" than Abos, thus their proto-Abo\n\nstatus is more likely the truth and their human origin is more likely the lie. Their telepathy\n\nwould seem to further establish the domestic origin as the true story.\n\n\n\nI think a similar scenario plays out on Green and Blue in Short Sun. Wolfe is not going to\n\ncommit the Star Trek error of making human beings simultaneously, independently evolved on\n\nmultiple planets across the galaxy. If there are human shaped beings found on an uncolonized alien\n\nplanet, they have to be an imitative species copying us, such as Shadow Children, Abos and Inhumi. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E0B007.5070908@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T10:20:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 04/08/2014 20:18, Lee wrote: ----------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Shadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the\ntrilogy. The entire novella takes the form of an SF mystery in which\n'scenario 2' is slowly elucidated. In all, quite a number of pages are\ncarefully devoted to elucidating this scenario. It is stated as a fact\nseveral times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Where do you find a story that supports 'scenario 1'?\n\nWell, you have already answered that question- in the second novella of the trilogy, named: \"A Story\" by John V. Marsch, that being the only place Shadow Children are referenced.\n\n[--]\nWe are given the story of Shadow Children as degenerate humans. But we are also given the story that they are native, shadowy telepathic creatures. Which is the lie and which is the truth?\n\nEven The Old Wise One says he can't remember anymore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where, *precisely*, are we given that story? We are given the story of \nShadow Children as degenerate humans repeatedly and specifically. And \nif they are not humans, where are the humans gone?\n\nThe Shadow Children know of starcrossers and other technology. They \nrefer to Sandwalker's people as the native population. They explain \nthat the natives are shapechangers \"like those we called werewolves in \nour old home\". In a hundred other ways, the story you have called \n'Scenario 2' is repeatedly told.\n\nThe confusion of the Old Wise One towards the end is clearly explained \nby the deaths of most of the Shadow Children. \"Now I am half a man\" as \nhe puts it, when there is only one left, meaning that he is half Shadow \nChild, half Sandwalker.\n\nYou asserted \"Stories are told which support each scenario to the point \nof cancelling each other out.\" Please be specific. You have presented \nno story telling 'scenario 1', just objections on the grounds of \n\"handiness\" etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think a similar scenario plays out on Green and Blue in Short Sun.\nWolfe is not going to commit the Star Trek error of making human beings\nsimultaneously, independently evolved on multiple planets across the\ngalaxy. If there are human shaped beings found on an uncolonized alien\nplanet, they have to be an imitative species copying us, such as Shadow >Children, Abos and Inhumi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But the planet WAS colonised by the human ancestors of the Shadow Children. In their case Veil's Hypothesis is substantially true, but they have not yet completely died out. Your hypothesis requires two imitative alien species, the death of all humans, and one of the species thinking it is human even to the extent of having memories of Earth (how?). And it ignores the fact that an alternative story that explains all this is stated quite clearly in the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T13:54:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E0B007.5070908@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 3:20 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But the planet WAS colonised by the human ancestors of the Shadow\nChildren. In their case Veil's Hypothesis is substantially true, but they\nhave not yet completely died out. Your hypothesis requires two imitative\nalien species, the death of all humans, and one of the species thinking it\nis human even to the extent of having memories of Earth (how?). And it\nignores the fact that an alternative story that explains all this is stated\nquite clearly in the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Seeing as how I view Shadow Children as psychically gifted and \"empathetic\"\nand capable of rising up in the draft of currents from the ground and take\nseriously the idea that even though they are many when they are\nconfronted they fade into \"one lonely\" - (ie a parasitic community that\ninfects a host so thoroughly that they are effectively only that one being,\nthe small things living in the mouth that the large Shadow Child says might\nswitch Eastwind and Sandwalker when he bites them at the end of \"A Story\"\n(because he is infected himself and is a \"shadow child\", though \"A Story\"\nis a myth and is not realistic in all details, being symbolic in some), I\nfeel most of your discussion is probably moot - the Shadow Children are\nonly human insofar as they can infect them. Also, I believe Shadow Child\ninfection can alter the eyes, such as the doubled pupil that seems to be\nundergoing meiosis or something after Marsch shoots the wild animals near\nthe back of beyond. I don't want to argue about any of that stuff, but I do\nwant to point out \"all this is stated quite clearly in the text\" when you\nare talking about \"A Story\" in Fifth Head of Cerberus is simply not an\naccurate assessment of all the confusing stuff and mystical mumbo jumbo\ngoing on, where both species are very confused about their origin. One is\nimitative, one infectious, and both might have come from a single source of\ndivergent evolution ... or not." } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E104DE.2040107@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T16:22:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 14:54, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\nSeeing as how I view Shadow Children as psychically gifted and \n\"empathetic\" and capable of rising up in the draft of currents from \nthe ground and take seriously the idea that even though they are many \nwhen they are confronted they fade into \"one lonely\" - (ie a \nparasitic community that infects a host so thoroughly that they are \neffectively only that one being, the small things living in the mouth \nthat the large Shadow Child says might switch Eastwind and Sandwalker \nwhen he bites them at the end of \"A Story\" (because he is infected \nhimself and is a \"shadow child\", though \"A Story\" is a myth and is not \nrealistic in all details, being symbolic in some), I feel most of your \ndiscussion is probably moot - the Shadow Children are only human \ninsofar as they can infect them. Also, I believe Shadow Child \ninfection can alter the eyes, such as the doubled pupil that seems to \nbe undergoing meiosis or something after Marsch shoots the wild \nanimals near the back of beyond. I don't want to argue about any of \nthat stuff, but I do want to point out \"all this is stated quite \nclearly in the text\" when you are talking about \"A Story\" in Fifth \nHead of Cerberus is simply not an accurate assessment of all the \nconfusing stuff and mystical mumbo jumbo going on, where both species \nare very confused about their origin. One is imitative, one \ninfectious, and both might have come from a single source of divergent \nevolution ... or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are no small creatures in the Shadow Child's mouth. \"That which \nswam in my mouth swims in his veins now\" is singular - it refers to the \ndrug plant they chew. \"And because I spoke to him and he believed me, \nin his mind he is you\" - drug-induced hypnosis. And I ask again, where \ndo we find any reason to believe the original Marsch was infected in \nsome way by Victor? He got a cat-bite that went septic, but nowhere is \ninfection linked to imitation. The green eyes of the aborigines (such \nas Victor) are not double-pupilled - what have they to do with the eyes \nof the hippo or whatever?\n\nI don't believe there is any confusion - we are given a quite coherent, \nif unlikely, story. The Old Wise One is never confused about his origin \nuntil a large part of him is generated from Sandwalker's mind. Then, \nand only then, does he become confused, and in a manner consistent with \nthe story so far. Note that the actual story doesn't change anyway - he \njust doesn't know which of the two peoples he is - the humans who \ncrossed from star to star, landing on Sainte Anne, or the shape-shifting \ntool-less people - Sandwalker's ancestors - they found there.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T16:59:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E104DE.2040107@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "they say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\" -\nseems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic\nrather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and\nEastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But\nyou don't buy it, that's fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 05/08/2014 14:54, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seeing as how I view Shadow Children as psychically gifted and\n\"empathetic\" and capable of rising up in the draft of currents from the\nground and take seriously the idea that even though they are many when they\nare confronted they fade into \"one lonely\" - (ie a parasitic community\nthat infects a host so thoroughly that they are effectively only that one\nbeing, the small things living in the mouth that the large Shadow Child\nsays might switch Eastwind and Sandwalker when he bites them at the end of\n\"A Story\" (because he is infected himself and is a \"shadow child\", though\n\"A Story\" is a myth and is not realistic in all details, being symbolic in\nsome), I feel most of your discussion is probably moot - the Shadow\nChildren are only human insofar as they can infect them. Also, I believe\nShadow Child infection can alter the eyes, such as the doubled pupil that\nseems to be undergoing meiosis or something after Marsch shoots the wild\nanimals near the back of beyond. I don't want to argue about any of that\nstuff, but I do want to point out \"all this is stated quite clearly in the\ntext\" when you are talking about \"A Story\" in Fifth Head of Cerberus is\nsimply not an accurate assessment of all the confusing stuff and mystical\nmumbo jumbo going on, where both species are very confused about their\norigin. One is imitative, one infectious, and both might have come from a\nsingle source of divergent evolution ... or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are no small creatures in the Shadow Child's mouth. \"That which\nswam in my mouth swims in his veins now\" is singular - it refers to the\ndrug plant they chew. \"And because I spoke to him and he believed me, in\nhis mind he is you\" - drug-induced hypnosis. And I ask again, where do we\nfind any reason to believe the original Marsch was infected in some way by\nVictor? He got a cat-bite that went septic, but nowhere is infection\nlinked to imitation. The green eyes of the aborigines (such as Victor) are\nnot double-pupilled - what have they to do with the eyes of the hippo or\nwhatever?\n\nI don't believe there is any confusion - we are given a quite coherent, if\nunlikely, story. The Old Wise One is never confused about his origin until\na large part of him is generated from Sandwalker's mind. Then, and only\nthen, does he become confused, and in a manner consistent with the story so\nfar. Note that the actual story doesn't change anyway - he just doesn't\nknow which of the two peoples he is - the humans who crossed from star to\nstar, landing on Sainte Anne, or the shape-shifting tool-less people -\nSandwalker's ancestors - they found there.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:12:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It also seems to me that brides involve a method of propagation and\nreproduction, you know? like the life cycle involves them somehow. But\nlike I said, I really don't want to argue too much about this because our\nviews on parallel symbolic associations in Fifth Head of Cerberus are\ndiametrically opposed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nthey say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\" -\nseems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic\nrather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and\nEastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But\nyou don't buy it, that's fine.\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 05/08/2014 14:54, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Seeing as how I view Shadow Children as psychically gifted and\n\"empathetic\" and capable of rising up in the draft of currents from the\nground and take seriously the idea that even though they are many when they\nare confronted they fade into \"one lonely\" - (ie a parasitic community\nthat infects a host so thoroughly that they are effectively only that one\nbeing, the small things living in the mouth that the large Shadow Child\nsays might switch Eastwind and Sandwalker when he bites them at the end of\n\"A Story\" (because he is infected himself and is a \"shadow child\", though\n\"A Story\" is a myth and is not realistic in all details, being symbolic in\nsome), I feel most of your discussion is probably moot - the Shadow\nChildren are only human insofar as they can infect them. Also, I believe\nShadow Child infection can alter the eyes, such as the doubled pupil that\nseems to be undergoing meiosis or something after Marsch shoots the wild\nanimals near the back of beyond. I don't want to argue about any of that\nstuff, but I do want to point out \"all this is stated quite clearly in the\ntext\" when you are talking about \"A Story\" in Fifth Head of Cerberus is\nsimply not an accurate assessment of all the confusing stuff and mystical\nmumbo jumbo going on, where both species are very confused about their\norigin. One is imitative, one infectious, and both might have come from a\nsingle source of divergent evolution ... or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There are no small creatures in the Shadow Child's mouth. \"That which\nswam in my mouth swims in his veins now\" is singular - it refers to the\ndrug plant they chew. \"And because I spoke to him and he believed me, in\nhis mind he is you\" - drug-induced hypnosis. And I ask again, where do we\nfind any reason to believe the original Marsch was infected in some way by\nVictor? He got a cat-bite that went septic, but nowhere is infection\nlinked to imitation. The green eyes of the aborigines (such as Victor) are\nnot double-pupilled - what have they to do with the eyes of the hippo or\nwhatever?\n\nI don't believe there is any confusion - we are given a quite coherent,\nif unlikely, story. The Old Wise One is never confused about his origin\nuntil a large part of him is generated from Sandwalker's mind. Then, and\nonly then, does he become confused, and in a manner consistent with the\nstory so far. Note that the actual story doesn't change anyway - he just\ndoesn't know which of the two peoples he is - the humans who crossed from\nstar to star, landing on Sainte Anne, or the shape-shifting tool-less\npeople - Sandwalker's ancestors - they found there.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and in VRT the officer reading the documents bathes the girls saliva off\n\"prophylactically\" or something of the sort - odd choice of words." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:12 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIt also seems to me that brides involve a method of propagation and\nreproduction, you know? like the life cycle involves them somehow. But\nlike I said, I really don't want to argue too much about this because our\nviews on parallel symbolic associations in Fifth Head of Cerberus are\ndiametrically opposed.\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:59 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "they say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\" -\nseems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic\nrather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and\nEastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But\nyou don't buy it, that's fine.\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 05/08/2014 14:54, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Seeing as how I view Shadow Children as psychically gifted and\n\"empathetic\" and capable of rising up in the draft of currents from the\nground and take seriously the idea that even though they are many when they\nare confronted they fade into \"one lonely\" - (ie a parasitic community\nthat infects a host so thoroughly that they are effectively only that one\nbeing, the small things living in the mouth that the large Shadow Child\nsays might switch Eastwind and Sandwalker when he bites them at the end of\n\"A Story\" (because he is infected himself and is a \"shadow child\", though\n\"A Story\" is a myth and is not realistic in all details, being symbolic in\nsome), I feel most of your discussion is probably moot - the Shadow\nChildren are only human insofar as they can infect them. Also, I believe\nShadow Child infection can alter the eyes, such as the doubled pupil that\nseems to be undergoing meiosis or something after Marsch shoots the wild\nanimals near the back of beyond. I don't want to argue about any of that\nstuff, but I do want to point out \"all this is stated quite clearly in the\ntext\" when you are talking about \"A Story\" in Fifth Head of Cerberus is\nsimply not an accurate assessment of all the confusing stuff and mystical\nmumbo jumbo going on, where both species are very confused about their\norigin. One is imitative, one infectious, and both might have come from a\nsingle source of divergent evolution ... or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There are no small creatures in the Shadow Child's mouth. \"That which\nswam in my mouth swims in his veins now\" is singular - it refers to the\ndrug plant they chew. \"And because I spoke to him and he believed me, in\nhis mind he is you\" - drug-induced hypnosis. And I ask again, where do we\nfind any reason to believe the original Marsch was infected in some way by\nVictor? He got a cat-bite that went septic, but nowhere is infection\nlinked to imitation. The green eyes of the aborigines (such as Victor) are\nnot double-pupilled - what have they to do with the eyes of the hippo or\nwhatever?\n\nI don't believe there is any confusion - we are given a quite coherent,\nif unlikely, story. The Old Wise One is never confused about his origin\nuntil a large part of him is generated from Sandwalker's mind. Then, and\nonly then, does he become confused, and in a manner consistent with the\nstory so far. Note that the actual story doesn't change anyway - he just\ndoesn't know which of the two peoples he is - the humans who crossed from\nstar to star, landing on Sainte Anne, or the shape-shifting tool-less\npeople - Sandwalker's ancestors - they found there.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E11113.5020606@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:14:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 17:59, Marc Aramini wrote:\nthey say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \n\"brides.\" - seems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations \nare symbolic rather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. \nSandwalker and Eastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched \nwith a bite, too. But you don't buy it, that's fine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the plant. It's white and without comfort because the drug is \nused up. Then they wait until sufficient time has passed for safety, \nand take more of the plant.\n\nWhy do you say Marsch is switched, rather than replaced? The new Marsch \nsays \"I needed to make my voice like his and look older\". And the old \nMarsch was bitten by the cat, not by Victor...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:23:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E11113.5020606@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "my mistake, replaced, supplanted. I KNOW he was bitten by the cat,\nGerry. Why even say that? Victor is only a part of the equation because\nthe cat had a kind of affinity for Victor like the Shadow Children do for\nwhoever with their psychic empathy, but it is the bite that brings the\nfragment of that psychic connection into Marsch and \"replaces\" him. If\nthere is any of Victor in Marsch, it is through the psychic resonance the\ncat had with Victor.\n\nI think of Victor and Marsch as two distinct entities, and Victor DIES in a\nscene you believe to be a fabrication, a fall. But Wolfe wants us to\nbelieve Victor takes Marsch's place and assumes his shape, because that is\nthe first false solution to the mystery without touching on the life cycle\nof the Shadow Children that underlies the point of \"A Story\". It seems\nSandwalker the abo lives, as it seems Victor replaces Marsch, but Marsch\nis actually but a vector for an infection which can rise up on air currents\nand float in the wind (Eastwind)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 05/08/2014 17:59, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "they say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\" -\nseems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic\nrather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and\nEastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But\nyou don't buy it, that's fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's the plant. It's white and without comfort because the drug is used\nup. Then they wait until sufficient time has passed for safety, and take\nmore of the plant.\n\nWhy do you say Marsch is switched, rather than replaced? The new Marsch\nsays \"I needed to make my voice like his and look older\". And the old\nMarsch was bitten by the cat, not by Victor...\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:25:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "eastwind has no testicles but survives - the life cycle of the shadow\nchildren does not involve sexual reproduction. I also know Eastwind is an\nabo, but he SYMBOLIZES the shadow children's propagation cycle in the\nstory's conclusion, while Sandwalker symbolizes the aboriginal one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nmy mistake, replaced, supplanted. I KNOW he was bitten by the cat,\nGerry. Why even say that? Victor is only a part of the equation because\nthe cat had a kind of affinity for Victor like the Shadow Children do for\nwhoever with their psychic empathy, but it is the bite that brings the\nfragment of that psychic connection into Marsch and \"replaces\" him. If\nthere is any of Victor in Marsch, it is through the psychic resonance the\ncat had with Victor.\n\nI think of Victor and Marsch as two distinct entities, and Victor DIES in\na scene you believe to be a fabrication, a fall. But Wolfe wants us to\nbelieve Victor takes Marsch's place and assumes his shape, because that is\nthe first false solution to the mystery without touching on the life cycle\nof the Shadow Children that underlies the point of \"A Story\". It seems\nSandwalker the abo lives, as it seems Victor replaces Marsch, but Marsch\nis actually but a vector for an infection which can rise up on air currents\nand float in the wind (Eastwind).\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 05/08/2014 17:59, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "they say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\"\n- seems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic\nrather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and\nEastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But\nyou don't buy it, that's fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's the plant. It's white and without comfort because the drug is\nused up. Then they wait until sufficient time has passed for safety, and\ntake more of the plant.\n\nWhy do you say Marsch is switched, rather than replaced? The new Marsch\nsays \"I needed to make my voice like his and look older\". And the old\nMarsch was bitten by the cat, not by Victor...\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:28:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "are these leaves the Shadow Children chew from the carapace corpse trees of\nthe aborigines in the final stage of their life cycle? If that is the case,\nperhaps the aboriginal cells have two means of surviving: through standard\nmacrocosmic sexual recombination and then through cellular mimicry when\nthey are consumed and chewed, mimicking the host cells and allowing\ncellular reproduction to occur in this fashion with undifferentiated\ncells. Would be an interesting case of crazy converging AND diverging\nevolution." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\neastwind has no testicles but survives - the life cycle of the shadow\nchildren does not involve sexual reproduction. I also know Eastwind is an\nabo, but he SYMBOLIZES the shadow children's propagation cycle in the\nstory's conclusion, while Sandwalker symbolizes the aboriginal one.\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "my mistake, replaced, supplanted. I KNOW he was bitten by the cat,\nGerry. Why even say that? Victor is only a part of the equation because\nthe cat had a kind of affinity for Victor like the Shadow Children do for\nwhoever with their psychic empathy, but it is the bite that brings the\nfragment of that psychic connection into Marsch and \"replaces\" him. If\nthere is any of Victor in Marsch, it is through the psychic resonance the\ncat had with Victor.\n\nI think of Victor and Marsch as two distinct entities, and Victor DIES in\na scene you believe to be a fabrication, a fall. But Wolfe wants us to\nbelieve Victor takes Marsch's place and assumes his shape, because that is\nthe first false solution to the mystery without touching on the life cycle\nof the Shadow Children that underlies the point of \"A Story\". It seems\nSandwalker the abo lives, as it seems Victor replaces Marsch, but Marsch\nis actually but a vector for an infection which can rise up on air currents\nand float in the wind (Eastwind).\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 05/08/2014 17:59, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "they say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\"\n- seems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic\nrather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and\nEastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But\nyou don't buy it, that's fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's the plant. It's white and without comfort because the drug is\nused up. Then they wait until sufficient time has passed for safety, and\ntake more of the plant.\n\nWhy do you say Marsch is switched, rather than replaced? The new Marsch\nsays \"I needed to make my voice like his and look older\". And the old\nMarsch was bitten by the cat, not by Victor...\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T17:50:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nShadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the\ntrilogy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Lee:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"A Story\" by John V. Marsch, that being the only place Shadow Children are referenced." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, they do crop up a few times in the third novella. As well as\nthe various references to child-sized indigenous people, there is:\n\n\"...and the Shadow Children of course came to steal by evening...\nthere are never as many of them as they think, because some are only\nin the minds of others...\" - VRT, interviewed by Marsch.\n\nand\n\n\"The question is not, as I once thought, how much the thoughts of the\nShadow Children influence reality, but how much our own do.\" - VRT's\nwritings, sometime after incarceration." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T18:41:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "they also ride up in air currents in the third part, \"in the foams and the\nbubbles from the springs\". Isn't that a little bit suspicious and a bit\nsmall right there? It is also said - don't ask me how big a child is - at\none point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:50 AM, Tony Ellis \nwrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Shadow Children are referenced only in the second novella of the\ntrilogy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Lee:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"A Story\" by John V. Marsch, that being the only place Shadow Children\nare referenced." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, they do crop up a few times in the third novella. As well as\nthe various references to child-sized indigenous people, there is:\n\n\"...and the Shadow Children of course came to steal by evening...\nthere are never as many of them as they think, because some are only\nin the minds of others...\" - VRT, interviewed by Marsch.\n\nand\n\n\"The question is not, as I once thought, how much the thoughts of the\nShadow Children influence reality, but how much our own do.\" - VRT's\nwritings, sometime after incarceration.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T21:58:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E11113.5020606@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a long time since I've read the book, but I don't recall thinking of the Shadow Children as human at all. I'm not saying that I rejected the idea of their being human, I'm saying that when I read the book it didn't register on me that they were or might be human. Was their description pictorial? Why are they assumed to be human?\n\nNo dia 05/08/2014, ?s 18:14, Gerry Quinn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 17:59, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "they say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\" - seems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic rather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and Eastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But you don't buy it, that's fine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's the plant. It's white and without comfort because the drug is used up. Then they wait until sufficient time has passed for safety, and take more of the plant.\n\nWhy do you say Marsch is switched, rather than replaced? The new Marsch says \"I needed to make my voice like his and look older\". And the old Marsch was bitten by the cat, not by Victor...\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<74FAFE93-CB92-4772-A3E6-A93F3496A15C@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-05T22:03:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That also had the advantage of not having such an elaborate thing as the Shadow Children come into play just to be inexplicably erased when the story closes. \n\nNo dia 05/08/2014, ?s 18:25, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "eastwind has no testicles but survives - the life cycle of the shadow children does not involve sexual reproduction. I also know Eastwind is an abo, but he SYMBOLIZES the shadow children's propagation cycle in the story's conclusion, while Sandwalker symbolizes the aboriginal one.\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nmy mistake, replaced, supplanted. I KNOW he was bitten by the cat, Gerry. Why even say that? Victor is only a part of the equation because the cat had a kind of affinity for Victor like the Shadow Children do for whoever with their psychic empathy, but it is the bite that brings the fragment of that psychic connection into Marsch and \"replaces\" him. If there is any of Victor in Marsch, it is through the psychic resonance the cat had with Victor. \n\nI think of Victor and Marsch as two distinct entities, and Victor DIES in a scene you believe to be a fabrication, a fall. But Wolfe wants us to believe Victor takes Marsch's place and assumes his shape, because that is the first false solution to the mystery without touching on the life cycle of the Shadow Children that underlies the point of \"A Story\". It seems Sandwalker the abo lives, as it seems Victor replaces Marsch, but Marsch is actually but a vector for an infection which can rise up on air currents and float in the wind (Eastwind).\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 05/08/2014 17:59, Marc Aramini wrote:\nthey say the white creatures they chew and spit out are their \"brides.\" - seems like an organism to me. As I said, the associations are symbolic rather than literal, so proving it is quite unlikely. Sandwalker and Eastwind ARE switched by a bite. Marsch is switched with a bite, too. But you don't buy it, that's fine.\n\nThat's the plant. It's white and without comfort because the drug is used up. Then they wait until sufficient time has passed for safety, and take more of the plant.\n\nWhy do you say Marsch is switched, rather than replaced? The new Marsch says \"I needed to make my voice like his and look older\". And the old Marsch was bitten by the cat, not by Victor...\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E218EC.3000309@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T12:00:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 18:12, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIt also seems to me that brides involve a method of propagation and \nreproduction, you know? like the life cycle involves them somehow. \nBut like I said, I really don't want to argue too much about this \nbecause our views on parallel symbolic associations in Fifth Head of \nCerberus are diametrically opposed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, all I can say is: re-read the full page or two before the 'brides' \n(actually 'wives') line. It's ALL a detailed description of the \ndrug-bearing plant and what it does for them and how they use it. The \n'wives' are introduced as an analogy for how it makes them feel. You \nare blowing off two pages of detailed exegesis on the basis of a word or \ntwo, words which have natural interpretations in the drug scenario as \nexplained. And not just here.\n\nWhy does Wolfe - or, if you prefer, Victor - go on for pages about this \nplant if it doesn't exist? It's not symbolic association, it's flat out \nSF info-dump!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E21B24.9070101@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T12:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 18:14, Marc Aramini wrote:\nand in VRT the officer reading the documents bathes the girls saliva \noff \"prophylactically\" or something of the sort - odd choice of words." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"He always washed after he had a woman.. the wash was not only a \nprophylactic precaution, but a sensual experience\"\n\nI'm not sensing his terror of being turned into an alien monster if he \ndoesn't scrub adequately! His partners are slave-girl prostitutes who \nservice all the officers; a wash afterwards only makes sense.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E21D16.6030904@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T12:18:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 18:50, Tony Ellis wrote:\nActually, they [Shadow Children] do crop up a few times in the third \nnovella. As well as the various references to child-sized indigenous \npeople, there is: \"...and the Shadow Children of course came to steal \nby evening... there are never as many of them as they think, because \nsome are only in the minds of others...\" - VRT, interviewed by Marsch. \nand \"The question is not, as I once thought, how much the thoughts of \nthe Shadow Children influence reality, but how much our own do.\" - \nVRT's writings, sometime after incarceration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. The last one is interesting. He immediately references \nthe original Marsche's interview with Mrs. Blount, in which she \ndescribes playing with abos as a child, and her father shooting some. \nI'm not sure how that fits with his observation above.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E21DD8.4000208@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T12:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 22:58, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nIt's been a long time since I've read the book, but I don't recall thinking of the Shadow Children as human at all. I'm not saying that I rejected the idea of their being human, I'm saying that when I read the book it didn't register on me that they were or might be human. Was their description pictorial? Why are they assumed to be human?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They - in the shape of the Old Wise One talking to Sandwalker - tell us \nthe story of how Sandwalker's people were a race of shape-changers who \nimitated the original human explorers. The latter discovered a drug \nthat gave them telepathic powers which they used to keep other humans \naway, as they themselves devolved into the Shadow Children. The OWO \nspecifically refers to humans as \"my race\".\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E2208E.4000503@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T12:33:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/2014 18:28, Marc Aramini wrote:\nare these leaves the Shadow Children chew from the carapace corpse \ntrees of the aborigines in the final stage of their life cycle? If \nthat is the case, perhaps the aboriginal cells have two means of \nsurviving: through standard macrocosmic sexual recombination and then \nthrough cellular mimicry when they are consumed and chewed, mimicking \nthe host cells and allowing cellular reproduction to occur in this \nfashion with undifferentiated cells. Would be an interesting case of \ncrazy converging AND diverging evolution." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, they are from a herb with warty grey leaves and yellow flowers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:25 AM, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n eastwind has no testicles but survives - the life cycle of the\n shadow children does not involve sexual reproduction. I also know\n Eastwind is an abo, but he SYMBOLIZES the shadow children's\n propagation cycle in the story's conclusion, while Sandwalker\n symbolizes the aboriginal one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He survives, but the ill-named Sweetmouth laughs at him because as a \neunuch he has not developed secondary sexual characteristics. Sandwalker \nis better equipped in that regard - he has sex with Seven Girls Waiting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On Tue, Aug 5, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Marc Aramini\n > wrote:\n\n my mistake, replaced, supplanted. I KNOW he was bitten by the\n cat, Gerry. Why even say that? Victor is only a part of the\n equation because the cat had a kind of affinity for Victor\n like the Shadow Children do for whoever with their psychic\n empathy, but it is the bite that brings the fragment of that\n psychic connection into Marsch and \"replaces\" him. If there\n is any of Victor in Marsch, it is through the psychic\n resonance the cat had with Victor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I think of Victor and Marsch as two distinct entities, and\n Victor DIES in a scene you believe to be a fabrication, a\n fall. But Wolfe wants us to believe Victor takes Marsch's\n place and assumes his shape, because that is the first false\n solution to the mystery without touching on the life cycle of\n the Shadow Children that underlies the point of \"A Story\". It\n seems Sandwalker the abo lives, as it seems Victor replaces\n Marsch, but Marsch is actually but a vector for an infection\n which can rise up on air currents and float in the wind\n (Eastwind)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two men enter the wilds, one man leaves. The other body is not to be \nfound. I think it's reasonable to doubt the recorded details of death.\n\nVictor: \"I only had to make my voice like his, and look older\". (He had \nalready learned to speak like him: the original Marsch remarks on it, in \nhis notebook.) How do you explain this, if Victor did not replace Marsche?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T12:59:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E21D16.6030904@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It exists. It's just that plant leaves aren't what you think they are-\nthey have microorganisms on them that produce the effects of communion.\n The same reason you ignore the death scene of victor, Gerry. It 's okay\nwhen you ignore narrative details for narrative reasons, like Trenchard\nsaying he was descended from the east wind. This is why I don't want to\ntalk to you about this at great length- you will never be convinced because\nyour misprision is cast in iron, and you are exasperated by what you\nperceive as mine. And that's okay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 6, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 05/08/2014 18:50, Tony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, they [Shadow Children] do crop up a few times in the third\nnovella. As well as the various references to child-sized indigenous\npeople, there is: \"...and the Shadow Children of course came to steal by\nevening... there are never as many of them as they think, because some are\nonly in the minds of others...\" - VRT, interviewed by Marsch. and \"The\nquestion is not, as I once thought, how much the thoughts of the Shadow\nChildren influence reality, but how much our own do.\" - VRT's writings,\nsometime after incarceration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. The last one is interesting. He immediately references the\noriginal Marsche's interview with Mrs. Blount, in which she describes\nplaying with abos as a child, and her father shooting some. I'm not sure\nhow that fits with his observation above.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T13:00:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The shadow children become the things they infect. That's how one can be\nshot, like the creatures Marsch shoots.\nBefore you mention that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 6, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIt exists. It's just that plant leaves aren't what you think they are-\nthey have microorganisms on them that produce the effects of communion.\n The same reason you ignore the death scene of victor, Gerry. It 's okay\nwhen you ignore narrative details for narrative reasons, like Trenchard\nsaying he was descended from the east wind. This is why I don't want to\ntalk to you about this at great length- you will never be convinced because\nyour misprision is cast in iron, and you are exasperated by what you\nperceive as mine. And that's okay.\n\nOn Wednesday, August 6, 2014, Gerry Quinn > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 05/08/2014 18:50, Tony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, they [Shadow Children] do crop up a few times in the third\nnovella. As well as the various references to child-sized indigenous\npeople, there is: \"...and the Shadow Children of course came to steal by\nevening... there are never as many of them as they think, because some are\nonly in the minds of others...\" - VRT, interviewed by Marsch. and \"The\nquestion is not, as I once thought, how much the thoughts of the Shadow\nChildren influence reality, but how much our own do.\" - VRT's writings,\nsometime after incarceration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fair enough. The last one is interesting. He immediately references the\noriginal Marsche's interview with Mrs. Blount, in which she describes\nplaying with abos as a child, and her father shooting some. I'm not sure\nhow that fits with his observation above.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E382BC.3070107@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T13:44:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E21D16.6030904@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/08/2014 13:18, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 05/08/2014 18:50, Tony Ellis wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, they [Shadow Children] do crop up a few times in the third \nnovella. As well as the various references to child-sized indigenous \npeople, there is: \"...and the Shadow Children of course came to steal \nby evening... there are never as many of them as they think, because \nsome are only in the minds of others...\" - VRT, interviewed by \nMarsch. and \"The question is not, as I once thought, how much the \nthoughts of the Shadow Children influence reality, but how much our \nown do.\" - VRT's writings, sometime after incarceration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. The last one is interesting. He immediately references \nthe original Marsche's interview with Mrs. Blount, in which she \ndescribes playing with abos as a child, and her father shooting some. \nI'm not sure how that fits with his observation above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This part is also where he points out some difficulties with Veil's \nhypothesis and finishes with \"I call it Liev's Postpostulate. I am Liev \nand I have left.\"\n\nI think perhaps he is referring to the near genocide of the aborigines \nby the second and third waves of human colonists. (The first wave, who \nbecame the Shadow Children, were assimilated - they 'went native', one \nmight say.) Liev is Veil in reverse. Genocide of the aborigines as the \nopposite of genocide of the humans. (Can one call it genocide if \ninvaders from space are obliterated? Perhaps not.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T20:26:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E382BC.3070107@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Where, *precisely*, are we given that story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Find the passage in which The Old Wise One admits he can't remember which origin\n\nstory is true.\n\n\nAt risk of being insulting, I am getting the sense that there is a certain literary\n\nlevel often found in WOlfe's writing to which you are not sensitive.\n\n\nYou are trying to solve a Wolfe mystery as though it were Sherlock Holmes or a lab\n\nexperiment where you are supposed to observe the evidence, scientifically sort, weigh, \n\nand otherwise quantify it and the correct answer is thusly calculated. \n\n\nPreponderance of evidence represents the \"right\" answer.\n\n\nIn my opinion, Wolfe often writes in a manner in which almost everything which is \n\nwritten is a lie in some fashion. He takes \"unreliable narrator\" to an extreme in\n\nso many of his works, to the point that almost nothing written is trustworthy. I think \n\nthat description is apt for Fifth Head of Cerberus. In this type of story, other \n\nmethods of determining the \"truth\" must be found other than just quantifying the repetition\n\nof lies and false evidence.\n\n\nConsider the example of the Inhumi discussed a few years back. In the beginning of\n\nthe discussion, the flight of Inhumi between Green and Blue was considered reasonable\n\nand true by most of the discussion participants. And why not? The process is discussed a \n\nnumber of times in various direct and indirect ways by Inhumi.\n\n\nBy the end of the discussion, it was generally agreed that such flight would violate\n\nso many laws of physics, chemistry and biology that Wolfe could not have accidentally\n\nforgotten them. The flight of Inhumi through the void between planets must be a lie, \n\ndespite all the textual evidence for it. It becomes clear that every bit of this \n\n\"textual evidence\" has come from the mouths of a race of liars.\n\n\nWe know the Inhuman do travel between planets. So how do they do it? The obvious\n\nanswer is given to us, hidden in plain sight- From our first introduction to them, we \n\nknow- The Inhumi travel planet to planet by being master imitators and stowaways on the \n\nspaceships of other species. We are shown them doing this several times. It doesn't require \n\nviolating the laws of the universe and it also explains the lies about flying through the void. Disguisers and stowaways must rely on lies to accomplish their deceit and concealment, and thus\n\nbe experts at it.\n\n\n\nBack to Shadow Children. I wouldn't expect you to change your mind but if you have an explanation\n\nfor why the supposedly human Shadow Children are even worse with tools than Abos, I'd be\n\ninterested.\n\n\nAlso, as previously explained, the Shadow Children as proto-Abos does not require more than one\n\nshape changing species. It requires one. One evolving species, which evolves in pseudo-Lamarckian \n\nfashion by adopting the features of their victims rather than developing their own. Shadow Children\n\nare a first attempt at the local imitative parasites at copying humans. A poor one. Abos represent\n\na second attempt. Better but imperfect. Marsch and the rest of the population of Ste Anne and St. \n\nCroix (except #5 who is self-cloned) are a third, even better attempt. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E4C67C.30104@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-08T12:45:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 07/08/2014 21:26, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Where, *precisely*, are we given that story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: > Where, *precisely*, are we given that story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Find the passage in which The Old Wise One admits he can't remember\nwhich origin story is true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Old Wise One - for reasons that are explained, so I don't think it's important - becomes unclear, not about what happened on Sainte Anne, but about which of the two races was originally human and which was aboriginal. At no time is a scenario proposed in the text in which both the Shadow Children and the Hillmen/Marshmen are originally aborigines.\n\nHe becomes increasingly confused concurrently with the deaths of most of the Shadow Children whose minds, along with Sandwalker's, are constructing his. It's not even surprising. Before this, he sets out the history clearly, repeatedly indicating that his ancestors were the humans and Sandwalker's the native shapeshifters. He explains why they no longer use tools." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At risk of being insulting, I am getting the sense that there is a\ncertain literary level often found in WOlfe's writing to which you are\nnot sensitive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say, rather, that I read the writing with care, and do not tend to construct elaborate scenarios based on words found here and there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are trying to solve a Wolfe mystery as though it were Sherlock Holmes\nor a labexperiment where you are supposed to observe the evidence,\nscientifically sort, weigh, and otherwise quantify it and the correct\nanswer is thusly calculated. Preponderance of evidence represents the\n\"right\" answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, if my failing is reading and interpreting every part of the text with regard to what it means and how it corresponds to the rest of the text, I will plead guilty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In my opinion, Wolfe often writes in a manner in which almost everything\nwhich is written is a lie in some fashion. He takes \"unreliable narrator\"\nto an extreme inso many of his works, to the point that almost nothing\nwritten is trustworthy. I think" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if that is so (I think it is a great exaggeration) I believe it is generally to be assumed that the text has some intended meaning which can be identified by a careful reader, and that this meaning will be of some significance in terms of the greater themes he is exploring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that description is apt for Fifth Head of Cerberus. In this type of story,\nother methods of determining the \"truth\" must be found other than just\nquantifying the repetition of lies and false evidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly a mere quantification of the number of repetitions seems a limited approach. If by 'quantification', however, you mean placing detailed storylines occupying multiple pages ahead of extrapolations from occasional ambiguous statements and even single words, again I will plead guilty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider the example of the Inhumi discussed a few years back. In the\nbeginning of the discussion, the flight of Inhumi between Green and Blue\n was considered reasonable and true by most of the discussion participants.\nAnd why not? The process is discussed a number of times in various\ndirect and indirect ways by Inhumi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the end of the discussion, it was generally agreed that such flight\nwould violate so many laws of physics, chemistry and biology that Wolfe\n could not have accidentally forgotten them. The flight of Inhumi through\n the void between planets must be a lie, despite all the textual evidence\n for it. It becomes clear that every bit of this \"textual evidence\" has\ncome from the mouths of a race of liars." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not recall any such general agreement. That unpowered flight between nearby planets is unrealistic is, of course, a given. Unpowered interplanetary and even interstellar travel by telepathic or mystical means also appears to occur repeatedly - do you consider that too to be a lie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know the Inhuman do travel between planets. So how do they do it? The\nobvious answer is given to us, hidden in plain sight- From our first\nintroduction to them, we know- The Inhumi travel planet to planet by being\nmaster imitators and stowaways on the spaceships of other species. We are\nshown them doing this several times. It doesn't require violating the\nlaws of the universe and it also explains the lies about flying through the\nvoid. Disguisers and stowaways must rely on lies to accomplish their\ndeceit and concealment, and thus be experts at it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if correct, this secret space program is simply not *interesting* enough to be the 'secret of the Inhumi'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Back to Shadow Children. I wouldn't expect you to change your mind but\nif you have an explanation for why the supposedly human Shadow Children\n are even worse with tools than Abos, I'd be interested." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We never see them try to use tools. They explain themselves that they have put them away in order to enjoy their drugged-up paradise \"Long ago, before a fool struck fire, we were so - roaming without whatever may be named save the sun, the night, and eachj other. Now we aew so again, for we are gods, and things made by hands do not concern us.\" They do of course still show at various times an understanding of spacecraft, general relativity and such." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Also, as previously explained, the Shadow Children as proto-Abos does\nnot require more than one shape changing species. It requires one.\nOne evolving species, which evolves in pseudo-Lamarckian\nfashion by adopting the features of their victims rather than\ndeveloping their own. Shadow Children are a first attempt at the local\nimitative parasites at copying humans. A poor one. Abos represent\na second attempt. Better but imperfect. Marsch and the rest of the population\nof Ste Anne and St. Croix (except #5 who is self-cloned) are a third, even better\nattempt. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You also require another species, the humans, to have died out. And for \nthe first, and if you like the third, to actually believe they are human \nand believe they remember places and events on Earth. Contrary to your \noriginal argument, the scenario described is never proposed in the text.\n\nThe idea is, in any case, almost inconceivable when examined in its own \nright. Marsch, the Earthman, comes to Sainte Anne and notices nothing. \nHe interviews Mrs. Blount, who describes her mother's passage from \nEarth, and the abos she played with duiring her childhood (\"who are then \nthe Free People\" - as neo-Marsch reasonably asks - \"conservatives who \nwould not desert the old ways?\") There's an interplanetary war, an \ninfection of a second planet.. And NOBODY NOTICES, not even Mr. \nMillion, who would presumably be immune to all of this.\n\nAnd then there is the question of Marsch himself. Why is he - the only \ncharacter we know (he tells us himself that he had to look older and \nchange his voice) to be an imitation - special in a system entirely \ncomposed of unknowing imitators? Why is it only he who cannot hold a \npen correctly, when others of this new wave of imitators can now, \nseemingly, use cloning technology and operate spaceships? How come his \nefforts to pass as human failed and made him obviously suspect when he \nbecame the temporary focus of a murder investigation? Is he a throwback \nto the near-human second-generation Abos, lost amongst the \nthird-generation super-Abos? What happens when ships visiting the \nsystem return to Earth?\n\nMost of all - what's the point of all this supposed to be? Why would \nWolfe write such a loose-end dripping farrago?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-08T13:47:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E4C67C.30104@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I would say, rather, that I read the writing with care, and do not " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tend to construct elaborate scenarios based on words found here and there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is another way of saying you cannot conceive of the existence, purpose or value\n\nof a piece of literature in which 95% of what we are presented are lies and only an\n\nindirect 5% can be construed as truth.\n\n\nFair enough. Perhaps you have never encountered a person who manages to delude\n\nthemselves about themselves and the world so thoroughly that much of what they\n\nsay has no real ring of truth to it.\n\n\nI have and I suspect Gene Wolfe has also. I suspect he finds such people both \n\nrevolting and fascinating, as I do. Very much a worthy subject to pattern much of\n\nhis writing on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Most of all - what's the point of all this supposed to be? Why would \nWolfe write such a loose-end dripping farrago?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The reliability of Severian as a narrator was being explored in another thread. What \n\nIS the basis of so much reliance on unreliable narrators in Wolfe's work? Why does\n\nhe find exploring the minds of liars, self-deceivers and addled brains so interesting?\n\n\nI understand it. I not sure I can explain it to someone who doesn't find any appeal\n\nin finding one's way through a web of lies and deceit. But I get it. I suspect many \n\nother Wolfe fans do also. \n\n\nThere is something intrinsically \"human\" about exploring this realm of dishonesty. \n\nIronically, SF provides a platform in which \"super-liars\" such as the Inhumi and\n\nAbos can be invented to more thoroughly explore this side of life and human\n\ninteraction.\n\n\n\n\n. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E6359C.9020106@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-09T14:52:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 08/08/2014 14:47, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: I would say, rather, that I read the writing with care, and do not\ntend to construct elaborate scenarios based on words found here and there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is another way of saying you cannot conceive of the existence, purpose or value\nof a piece of literature in which 95% of what we are presented are lies and only an\nindirect 5% can be construed as truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all. In truth, I have rarely encountered such literature (John \nBarth's _The Voyage of Somebody The Sailor_ is the only title that \nsprings immediately to mind) but I am not opposed to it per se. In a \nsense, *all* literature is 100% untruth, after all.\n\nThe only significance of what I said in the context of such literature \nis that I do not attempt to shoe-horn literature into that category (or \nany other) without regard to the contents of the text. I would not have \nconsidered this position controversial." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fair enough. Perhaps you have never encountered a person who manages to delude\n\nthemselves about themselves and the world so thoroughly that much of what they\n\nsay has no real ring of truth to it.\n\n\nI have and I suspect Gene Wolfe has also. I suspect he finds such people both\n\nrevolting and fascinating, as I do. Very much a worthy subject to pattern much of\n\nhis writing on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have encountered many people, of many types - if the types were \ndefined with sufficient precision, it is possible that there would be as \nmany types as there are people. The type you mention is more commonly \nfound in books than in reality, as many authors, such as Wolfe, enjoy \nplaying with unreliable narrators. But there is a difference between an \nunreliable narrator and what might be called an \"unreliable author\". I \nam not the first to argue that Wolfe is more a modernist than a \npost-modernist, and his books tend to have an intended meaning (I do not \nintend to say, of course, that his books never retain purposeful \nambiguities).\n\nWolfe's narrators, more often than not, are delusional regarding some \naspects of reality. Part of the enjoyment of reading Wolfe - and other \nauthors who play this game - is teasing out the reality of the \nnarrator's existence from clues which are often quasi-accidentally \nreported by the narrator who does not realise their significance, but \nmay be conveyed by the author in other fashions.\n\nWhatever fashion the author chooses to convey his clues, he generally - \nat least if he writes in the modernist vein - attempts to convey them, \nin such a way that the discerning reader should able to figure out the \nintended meaning, or spectrum of meanings. I believe Wolfe has at times \nintimated that, at the start, he made those puzzles too hard, and has \neased up, though I am not convinced that his work has truly become \neasier to interpret over time - perhaps other forces push in the \nopposite direction.\n\nAnyway, I digress - the point here is that the focus of the work is not \nin general the unreliability of the narrator per se. The unreliable \nnarrator is merely a literary device by which the actual focus is \nconveyed. This is fortunate, as delusional, driven characters are not \nintrinsically the most interesting of people - the interest lies in the \nworld they inhabit and their interactions with it (which may include \ntheir delusions).\n\nThus, without referring specifcally to any particular work of \nliterature, I surmise that an interpretation of any Wolfe work must take \ninto account the likely unreliabiity of the narrator. But the \ninterpretation is *not* going to be \"narrators are unreliable, ner\". \nThere's an actual story, and Wolfe is not going to waste 95% of his \nhard-typed words on pointing out the unreliability of Wolfe narrators.\n\nIn 5HOC, there's a science fictional story told in the second novelette, \na story with science fictional specifics and details. Physically \nunrealistic details, or it would be science rather than science fiction, \nbut with the kind of quasi-realism that distinguishes science fiction, \nat least to some degree, from fantasy. One can certainly argue that \nneo-Marsch, while better placed than most to tell us the secret history \nof the Sainte Anne aborigines, might still only be guessing at this \nhistory, so it could be wrong. (In that regard, _5HOC_ is potentially \ntrickier than most of even Wolfe's works.) It is certainly the case \nthat Wolfe might consider writing such a story. But if he did, I \nbelieve that there would be relativly explicit clues connecting the \ncharacter of neo-Marsch to the specific story told. I do not see such \nclues referenced in the various \"hyper-unreliability-based\" \ninterpretations that have been put forward.\n\nYou referred to a \"scenario 1\" and a \"scenario 2\" and pretended that \nthere was equal textual evidence for both. I have pointed out there was \nnot. Only one of the scenarios appears in the text, and it is presented \nin detail. If we are to assume that the text is basically irrelevant \nbecause narrators always lie, and any interpretation we can dream up has \nequal value irrespective of how it connects to the text of the work in \nquestion, this does not, of course, constitute an insuperable problem. \nIt is not for me to decide the critical principles of others. But such \na principle, while it truly does have some advantages in the case of a \nreader in conversation solely with the written text, is more limited \nwhen it comes to discussion of the work. In the latter case, there will \nbe disputes which can only be resolved by means of pointing to \nsentences, paragraphs and pages that are specific enough that different \npeople will agree on the intentions of the author. And since - as we \nsee in something so fundamental as the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle \n- specificity implies energy, and thus mass, the comparisons which you \ndecry as excessively quantitative will inevitably acquire some weight. \nA paragraph, a page, a chapter - these really *are* bigger than a word \nor phrase to which can be ascribed an ambiguous meaning. Link the word \nor phrase to others in a coherent way - now you're talking. But if you \ncan only link to others than can be considered to support heterodox \ninterpretations, but not the *same* heterodox interpretations - this is \nno more than an observation that language, which must encompass the \nuniverse, is subject to ambiguity. I mentioned Heisenberg's Uncertainty \nPrinciple - let me add Chaitin's Theorem, or the better known Godel \nTheorem, which - though discovered/invented first - is a mere derivative \nof it.. It is not surprising, I suppose, that foundational principles \napplicable to the construction of the universe should not have analogues \nin the construction of literary works, which constitute their own \nuniverses (Marc's analysis of Wolfe's '70s output contains several \nliteral examples)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Most of all - what's the point of all this supposed to be? Why would\nWolfe write such a loose-end dripping farrago?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The reliability of Severian as a narrator was being explored in another thread. What\n\nIS the basis of so much reliance on unreliable narrators in Wolfe's work? Why does\n\nhe find exploring the minds of liars, self-deceivers and addled brains so interesting?\n\n\nI understand it. I not sure I can explain it to someone who doesn't find any appeal\n\nin finding one's way through a web of lies and deceit. But I get it. I suspect many\n\nother Wolfe fans do also.\n\n\nThere is something intrinsically \"human\" about exploring this realm of dishonesty.\n\nIronically, SF provides a platform in which \"super-liars\" such as the Inhumi and\n\nAbos can be invented to more thoroughly explore this side of life and human\n\ninteraction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you have not answered the points regarding the story, but you \nprovide an answer, in effect, to an argument I made above. I disagree, \nfor the reasons I posted, and I also don't think your answer is \nconsistent. Because if the answer to _New Sun_ or _5HOC_ is simply \n\"Severian is so unreliable\" or \"Marsch is so so unreliable, I mean \nduh!\", why are we reading them? Severian and Marsch are not truly \ninteresting people. They are far less interesting, except as specimens, \nthan (say) Dorcas or Tante Jeannine. What interests us is the universes \nthey inhabit. And I would like those universes honoured by means of \ncareful, consistent interpretations. About Severian and Marsch, I could \ncare less.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E64330.3000209@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-08-09T15:50:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/8/2014 8:47 AM, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: I would say, rather, that I read the writing with care, and do not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "tend to construct elaborate scenarios based on words found here and there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is another way of saying you cannot conceive of the existence, purpose or value\n\nof a piece of literature in which 95% of what we are presented are lies and only an\n\nindirect 5% can be construed as truth.\n\n\nFair enough. Perhaps you have never encountered a person who manages to delude\n\nthemselves about themselves and the world so thoroughly that much of what they\n\nsay has no real ring of truth to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have, but I wouldn't call their narratives literature and can barely \nscruple to call them stories; word salad, maybe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I understand it. I not sure I can explain it to someone who doesn't find any appeal\n\nin finding one's way through a web of lies and deceit. But I get it. I suspect many\n\nother Wolfe fans do also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, if you want to tell people authoritatively what a story means, it \nwould simpler, easier, more credible, and less insulting if you wrote \nyour own rather than asserting those already published are only 5% in \nearnest." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<97D366AC-201C-4B18-8CA0-91A3CFD4EA9A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-10T00:04:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E64330.3000209@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inasmuch as Gerry has said a lot of sensible stuff, the way he's applied it recently makes him more like the anti-Lee than anything else. Now, if I find Lee's stuff over the top, at least it's stuff (and my issue with Lee is more his tone than his content). Whereas recently Gerry has gone out of his way to say 'nothing to see here, move along'. \n\nNo dia 09/08/2014, ?s 16:50, \"Jeffery Wilson clueland.com\" escreveu:" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E7460D.7050001@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-10T10:14:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<97D366AC-201C-4B18-8CA0-91A3CFD4EA9A@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/08/2014 01:04, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nInasmuch as Gerry has said a lot of sensible stuff, the way he's applied it recently makes him more like the anti-Lee than anything else. Now, if I find Lee's stuff over the top, at least it's stuff (and my issue with Lee is more his tone than his content). Whereas recently Gerry has gone out of his way to say 'nothing to see here, move along'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would argue that in cases where I have been criticising proposed \ninterpretations rather than proposing my own, I am merely arguing for \nsome kind of consistency of approach and of interpretation, and for \ninterpretations that are not infinitely malleable when critiqued.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-10T13:34:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E7460D.7050001@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 10/08/2014, ?s 11:14, Gerry Quinn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/08/2014 01:04, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inasmuch as Gerry has said a lot of sensible stuff, the way he's applied it recently makes him more like the anti-Lee than anything else. Now, if I find Lee's stuff over the top, at least it's stuff (and my issue with Lee is more his tone than his content). Whereas recently Gerry has gone out of his way to say 'nothing to see here, move along'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would argue that in cases where I have been criticising proposed interpretations rather than proposing my own, I am merely arguing for some kind of consistency of approach and of interpretation, and for interpretations that are not infinitely malleable when critiqued." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's not all you've been doing; you've gone far into saying some readings are all there is to a given story, implying that one shouldn't attempt to come up with an alternative. Even if none of the current ones is satisfactory, it doesn't mean one doesn't exist, and there is in principle nothing wrong in refining hypotheses. For instance, I find Marc's interpretation of Suzanne Delage falling short, but nonetheless a necessary first step. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E790BC.9080901@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-10T15:33:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/08/2014 14:34, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nNo dia 10/08/2014, ?s 11:14, Gerry Quinn escreveu:\n\nOn 10/08/2014 01:04, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Inasmuch as Gerry has said a lot of sensible stuff, the way he's applied it recently makes him more like the anti-Lee than anything else. Now, if I find Lee's stuff over the top, at least it's stuff (and my issue with Lee is more his tone than his content). Whereas recently Gerry has gone out of his way to say 'nothing to see here, move along'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would argue that in cases where I have been criticising proposed interpretations rather than proposing my own, I am merely arguing for some kind of consistency of approach and of interpretation, and for interpretations that are not infinitely malleable when critiqued." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But that's not all you've been doing; you've gone far into saying some readings are all there is to a given story, implying that one shouldn't attempt to come up with an alternative. Even if none of the current ones is satisfactory, it doesn't mean one doesn't exist, and there is in principle nothing wrong in refining hypotheses. For instance, I find Marc's interpretation of Suzanne Delage falling short, but nonetheless a necessary first step." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Things can look different from the other side: Marc's post said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I accept several principals at face value from the narrator as \ngeneral guidelines:\n1)That an extraordinary event actually could be forgotten, so that he \ncan’t be\ntrusted to reliably remember it. If he could remember it, then the \npremise of\nthe story is invalid. If we do not accept this premise, the analysis \ncan stop right\nhere — the extraordinary event in his life is that he never met \nSuzanne Delage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't that, from my perspective, look like \"nothing to see here\"?\n\nAs for Lee's \"scenario 1\" he stated that it was in the text on an equal \nlevel with \"scenario 2\", and I asked him where. In fact the scenario of \ntwo independent abo races, whether it's right or wrong or may be \ninferred, is not present in any kind of equivalent form. The Old Wise \nOne forgets which race he is, but there is not a second independent \nseries of events described.\n\nMy main issue, as ever, is with the frenetic chasing of \n'inconsistencies' (which need not actually be inconsistent) to the \nextent that the 'consistencies' are ignored.\n\nIs there actually ANY story by Wolfe which can generally be agreed to \ntake the form of a cryptic puzzle to be unlocked by way of extrapolating \nfrom symbolism we may associate (but which is never stated clearly) with \ncccasional words used by a preternaturally unreliable narrator, to the \nextend that his descriptions of actual events in the text are to be \nignored? _Soldier_ and _Peace_ may come the closest, but I don't think \nthey fit the picture either. Alden Weir does not like to think clearly \nabout certain events - but we do not have to infer them wholesale from \nrandom words he uses.\n\nRather, the narrator tells us what happened and we then interpret them \nin certain ways. He leaves things out, but does not invent an unrelated \nbuild-up. Wolfe does in fact tell us stuff, and it's hardly ever \noutright lies. That No. 5 is a clone may be inferred by the cleverest \nin advance, but it is confirmed to us in so many words by the end of the \ntale. 'A Story' tells us the tale of how the humanoid abos came to be, \nand why the planets were not found for so long despite much nearby space \ntravel. 'VRT' tells us the story of an abo who - unlike his mother - \ndoes in fact take a rare opportunity to steal the identity of a human. \nThere's a whole lot to see here. I don't get why people are chasing \n'symbolic clues' that erase the text and lead at best to a storyline \nthat would not be intrinsically more interesting even if it had been the \none written down.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-10T18:46:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E790BC.9080901@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Entonio: my issue with Lee is more his tone than his content" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My true apologies for any lapses into a negative tone. Unfortunately both my writing\n\nand verbal speech patterns unconsciously drift to match whomever I am conversing \n\nwith. This has included the embarrassment of realizing I have temporarily adopted an \n\nAlabama, a British and a Russian accent and others, though I am not from those places. \n\nStill it is my responsibility to retain a polite tone in (almost) all situations, so \n\nagain, my apologies if I have lapsed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Dude, if you want to tell people authoritatively what a story means, it \nwould simpler, easier, more credible, and less insulting if you wrote \nyour own rather than asserting those already published are only 5% in \nearnest" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, I have no authority other than explaining what my personal perspective is. I don't\n\nsee why identifying what I think is a thoroughly unreliable narrator requires that I write \n\nmy own novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In fact the scenario of two independent abo races.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I have explained several times, this is not my view.\n\n\nMy view is that there is one shapeshifting, imitative race from Ste. Anne. Since Ste. \n\nAnne is a rather desolate planet, this species started as a somewhat shapeless,\n\nformless being(s), likely without a sense of being divided into individual organisms\n\nand bodies. \n\n\nWhen a human ship crashed onto the planet, the first attempt at imitating them wasn't\n\nespecially good, hence \"Shadow Children\" an apt name given that they are derived from\n\nshadowy being(s). The very process of being individuals has not been accurately copied\n\nand thus Shadow Children do still blend and meld into one another.\n\nPart of their disguise is that they have forgotten that they were previously\nshadowy formless beings, though the Old Wise One briefly remembers it. They tell a false\n\nstory about being degenerate humans to enhance the disguise.\n\n\nThe second attempt at imitating humans by this native life form is Abos. They look a lot\n\nand act a lot more human than Shadow Children. They don't have the same trouble \n\nmaintaining an individual identity but they still aren't very good with tools. They have\n\na false history suggesting they are native to Ste. Anne in their current human form\n\nalthough such parallel evolution on Earth and Ste. Anne is statistically impossible (as\n\nan anthropologist like Marsch would know). So if Abos didn't originally look human, what \n\nDID they originally look like? Shadow Children provide the answer.\n\n\nThe third attempt at imitating humans by this same species are the humans who populate\n\nthe towns and cities of Ste. Anne and Ste. Croix. This attempt is good enough to fool\n\nmost other Earth-origin humans but some cracks in the fa?ade still appear here and there.\n\nAs would be expected, the more primitive Abo are found only on Ste. Anne and the even\n\nmore primitive Shadow Children (if any still exist) are only found in the deeply rural\n\nand \"backwoods\" areas of Ste. Anne, or (if none still exist) only in stories.\n\n\nWolfe describes an engineering principle in the text in which \"relaxation\" technique can\n\nbe used to solve a seemingly unsolvable problem. One makes a real-world model approximation, \n\ndoes measurements and then uses a second and third attempt and further adjustments to more \n\nclosely approximate the result you are trying to achieve. Eventually, you can create a \n\nprototype which works well enough for your purposes (though perfection is impossible).\n\n\nThis principle comes up in a conversation between Dr. Marsch and Number Five and is \n\nrightfully ignored by Number Five since he (and his predecessors) are not using \n\nrelaxation. They are copying themselves without appreciable adjustment or change each\n\ngeneration although he argues with Marsch over this issue.\n\n\nIt is the native, imitative species who has engaged in relaxation and Dr. Marsch, now being\n\nalmost undetectable as a native, is a wonderful example of it.\n\n\nThis is my view of the story. If others have a different view, that is perfectly fine and\n\nI make no claim of superiority for mine, nor a claim that anyone else ought to adopt my view. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E8A7F3.5050903@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T11:24:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/08/2014 19:46, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: In fact the scenario of two independent abo races.." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I have explained several times, this is not my view.\n\nMy view is that there is one shapeshifting, imitative race from Ste. Anne. Since Ste.\nAnne is a rather desolate planet, this species started as a somewhat shapeless,\nformless being(s), likely without a sense of being divided into individual organisms\nand bodies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant the Shadow Children and the Hillmen/Marschmen, which would - \nwhatever their origin - appear to nowadays have the characteristics of \ndifferent races if not different species. If there is an imitative \nspecies such that the individuals appear to always imitate their parents \n(Sandwalker was born apparently in the form of a human baby - his breech \ndelivery is described) and retain similar characteristics throughout \nlife, but allowing for some originality in the process - that species \nwould appear to have acquired the ability to further speciate.\n\nIt matters not: the Old Wise One spoke of \"two peoples\" and we can \nsubstitute the word \"people\" for \"race\" or \"species\" if you prefer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When a human ship crashed onto the planet, the first attempt at imitating them wasn't\nespecially good, hence \"Shadow Children\" an apt name given that they are derived from\nshadowy being(s). The very process of being individuals has not been accurately copied\nand thus Shadow Children do still blend and meld into one another.\n\nPart of their disguise is that they have forgotten that they were previously\nshadowy formless beings, though the Old Wise One briefly remembers it. They tell a false story about being degenerate humans to enhance the disguise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They also understand space travel and general relativity, remember \nplaces on Earth, and can point out Sol, their \"old home\" in the night sky.\n\nAnd the drug-plant they talk about - a pre-determined cover story? Do \nall Shadow Children chew it, just in case a curious 'Shadowfriend' is \nunconvinced by the basic storyline? Sandwalker was suckered for sure - \nif Wolfe wanted to indicate that this was a lie shouldn't he have \ndropped a hint?\n\nBut this is beside the point. Your \"scenario 1\" here is reasonably \ncoherent, but - contrary to what you posted earlier - it is not given in \nthe text at all, in contrast to the detailed \"scenario 2\" in which the \nstories of the Old Wise One are essentially correct. He never referred \nto three peoples, always two." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The third attempt at imitating humans by this same species are the humans who populate\nthe towns and cities of Ste. Anne and Ste. Croix. This attempt is good enough to fool\nmost other Earth-origin humans but some cracks in the fa?ade still appear here and there.\n\nAs would be expected, the more primitive Abo are found only on Ste. Anne and the even\nmore primitive Shadow Children (if any still exist) are only found in the deeply rural\nand \"backwoods\" areas of Ste. Anne, or (if none still exist) only in stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And nobody noticed this takeover of two separate planets? I could \nimagine Peter F. Hamilton, say, writing a lively story of an \ninterplanetary war between humans in which it is discovered that one \ngroup is being taken over by imitative alien parasites who wish to \nspread to the other. It is hard for me to imagine that Wolfe would \npresent such a thing simply as a fait accompli. I mean, he could at \nleast have put a war story in which a captured soldier was the image of \nsomebody known to be dead, or something.\n\nVRT explicitly rejects this concept in the passage ending \"I am Liev and \nI have left.\"\n\nOf course there may well be abos even on Sainte Croix - I believe there \nis a hint of this in No. 5's comment about a \"planetary face\" which is \nnot found among the \"gypsies and criminal tribes\". (There's no direct \nsuggestion that Marsch looks like them, though.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe describes an engineering principle in the text in which \"relaxation\" technique can be used to solve a seemingly unsolvable problem. One makes a real-world model approximation, does measurements and then uses a second and third attempt and further adjustments to more closely approximate the result you are trying to achieve. Eventually, you can create a prototype which works well enough for your purposes (though perfection is impossible).\n\nThis principle comes up in a conversation between Dr. Marsch and Number Five and is\nrightfully ignored by Number Five since he (and his predecessors) are not using\nrelaxation. They are copying themselves without appreciable adjustment or change each\ngeneration although he argues with Marsch over this issue.\n\nIt is the native, imitative species who has engaged in relaxation and Dr. Marsch, now being almost undetectable as a native, is a wonderful example of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe you misunderstand the reference. The series of clones create \ntheir own environment, and consequently stabilise into a solution that \ndoes not change with time - No. 5 is essentially identical to his \nfather. Formally one would say the series converges to a fixed point. \n(Wolfe was writing before the popularisation of chaos theory.)\n\nWho is doing the measuring?\n\nAlso, according to your theory, Marsch is surely a very poor example! \nHe would be a second-generation type incapable of properly holding a \npen, not one of the hypothethical third-generation super-abos who live \nindetectibly as members of a space-age human civilisation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is my view of the story. If others have a different view, that is perfectly fine andI make no claim of superiority for mine, nor a claim that anyone else ought to adopt my view. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I point out only that another view can be put forward in which much less \nof what we are told needs to be discarded as misinformation.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3D43E723-586B-4DD3-929F-89805298E891@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T12:18:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<53E790BC.9080901@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 10/08/2014, ?s 16:33, Gerry Quinn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/08/2014 14:34, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 10/08/2014, ?s 11:14, Gerry Quinn escreveu:\n\nOn 10/08/2014 01:04, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nBut that's not all you've been doing; you've gone far into saying some readings are all there is to a given story, implying that one shouldn't attempt to come up with an alternative. Even if none of the current ones is satisfactory, it doesn't mean one doesn't exist, and there is in principle nothing wrong in refining hypotheses. For instance, I find Marc's interpretation of Suzanne Delage falling short, but nonetheless a necessary first step. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Things can look different from the other side: Marc's post said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I accept several principals at face value from the narrator as general guidelines:\n1) That an extraordinary event actually could be forgotten, so that he can’t be\n trusted to reliably remember it. If he could remember it, then the premise of\n > the story is invalid. If we do not accept this premise, the analysis can stop right\n here — the extraordinary event in his life is that he never met Suzanne Delage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doesn't that, from my perspective, look like \"nothing to see here\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. He's referring to his own line of analysis. I doubt he would criticise anyone who'd try to go in a different direction. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there actually ANY story by Wolfe which can generally be agreed to take the form of a cryptic puzzle to be unlocked by way of extrapolating from symbolism we may associate (but which is never stated clearly) with cccasional words used by a preternaturally unreliable narrator, to the extend that his descriptions of actual events in the text are to be ignored? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I think people go overboard with the whole 'unreliable' thing. I take exception to that labelling for the same reason that I agree with 'so-called realistic fiction leaves out too much'. What Wolfe does is create realistic narrators, they are realistic because they're not some preternatural transparent omniscient churner of facts. No real story we know has such a narrator, and no real story we know gets to us unless by first hand experience or real narrators. And real narrators are unreliable not because they're pathological liars but because they're human. Even when they are trying to be completely honest, they're limited by all sorts of factors. 'Unreliable narrator' is pleonastic. And the reason I dislike it so much is that just because Wolfe - following a long tradition that doesn't have to justify itself - creates narrators that leave lesser literature in the dust, that is considered a 'feature', the 'unreliable narrator'. Much as if roofs were features in houses just because lesser builders sell you houses without.\n\nWolfe's stories have the particular that there is something interesting which the reader can descry behind the narration. I don't think the devices for that need follow special criteria - thematic symbolism is in principle not worse than mystery detection, tho the latter can be more fulfilling. Of course, writing a whole new story that has little to do with what we're told is another thing. But I'm not even opposed to that, only to the attitude of trying to shove it down our guts. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T12:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "<3D43E723-586B-4DD3-929F-89805298E891@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I meant the Shadow Children and the Hillmen/Marschmen, which would - \nwhatever their origin - appear to nowadays have the characteristics of \ndifferent races if not different species...that species \nwould appear to have acquired the ability to further speciate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, though it should be noted such \"speciation\" is just an imitation of it. A \n\nfaking of millions of years of evolution accomplished in a short amount of time, \n\njust as other features of humanity are faked.\n\n\nAs I previously mentioned, our definition of \"species\" ceases to have real meaning\n\nwhen dealing with beings who can change their shape and even fail to maintain \n\nindividual organism status.\n\n\nThe question for you remains- What did Abos look like before humans arrived in the\n\nsystem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the drug-plant they talk about - a pre-determined cover story? Do \nall Shadow Children chew it, just in case a curious 'Shadowfriend' is \nunconvinced by the basic storyline?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I see made clear is that the \"cover story\", the lies which augment the disguise,\n\nare not just for the benefit of \"Shadowfriends\". Self-delusion is necessary for the\n\nmost complete and convincing disguise.\n\n\nDo Shadow Children know they are poor imitations of crashlanded humans? No. Only\n\nThe Old Wise One has a glimmer of memory of it. Do the Abos, like Victor, know \n\nthey have killed and taken the place of humans? No. Victor clearly believes most\n\nof what he writes in Marsch's journal. He does, at this point, truly think he is\n\nMarsch.\n\n\nWhen Victor reaches points in his story which threaten to reveal the unpleasant\n\ntruth that he is an Abo, what does he do? He lies or invents cover stories, in\n\nimitation of what humans do when faced with unpleasant truths about themselves.\n\n\nOr, as an alternative, just run away, as we see Marsch do when Number Five confronts\n\nhim with his true Abo nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course there may well be abos even on Sainte Croix - I believe there \nis a hint of this in No. 5's comment about a \"planetary face\" which is \nnot found among the \"gypsies and criminal tribes\". (There's no direct \nsuggestion that Marsch looks like them, though.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Marsch/Victor does run away when confronted by this truth, as just mentioned.\n\n\nIt doesn't take long for Marsch to be killed and replaced. I suspect all humans on \n\nSte Anne and Ste Croix have been similarly replaced (except Number Five who lives\n\ncloistered and protected in his clone castle)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe you misunderstand the reference. The series of clones create \ntheir own environment, and consequently stabilise into a solution that \ndoes not change with time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not misunderstand. This is exactly what Marsch/Victor tells Number Five, trying\n\nto explain to him why his cloning experiments don't work; why he doesn't advance.\n\n\nI am saying it is ironic because Marsch/Victor is telling Number Five exactly how the \n\nnative imitative species have managed to duplicate humans almost perfectly, Abos and\n\nShadow Children being the earlier approximations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who is doing the measuring?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe and certain members of his audience who see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, according to your theory, Marsch is surely a very poor example! \nHe would be a second-generation type incapable of properly holding a \npen," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incorrect. Marsch is the replacement for an Abo, making him the third-generation type.\n\nAs is made clear, even the third generation type, while they can use a pen- a very fine\n\nmotor skill no other animal can approach, they cannot use one with the precision of a \n\ntrue human." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I point out only that another view can be put forward in which much less \nof what we are told needs to be discarded as misinformation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I understand the bias of wanting to think as much possible of what we see written in a story\n\nis truthful.\n\n\nBut when given a narrator who is demonstrated as an unreliable liar trying to hide dark secrets,\n\nthe opposite bias must come into play. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53E8CB3B.30506@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T13:55:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/08/2014 13:31, Lee wrote:\nThe question for you remains- What did Abos look like before humans \narrived in the system? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some looked like every beast, and some were of fantastic forms inspired \nby the clouds, or lava flows. But most were long, and lived between the \nroots of trees. [Perhaps an association of which they retain a din \nracial memory...] So we are told, anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And the drug-plant they talk about - a pre-determined cover story? Do\nall Shadow Children chew it, just in case a curious 'Shadowfriend' is\nunconvinced by the basic storyline?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What I see made clear is that the \"cover story\", the lies which augment the disguise,\nare not just for the benefit of \"Shadowfriends\". Self-delusion is necessary for the\nmost complete and convincing disguise.\n\nDo Shadow Children know they are poor imitations of crashlanded humans? No. Only\nThe Old Wise One has a glimmer of memory of it. Do the Abos, like Victor, know\nthey have killed and taken the place of humans? No. Victor clearly believes most\nof what he writes in Marsch's journal. He does, at this point, truly think he is\nMarsch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He knows who he is. The early parts of Marsch's journal were written by \nthe actual Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course there may well be abos even on Sainte Croix - I believe there\nis a hint of this in No. 5's comment about a \"planetary face\" which is\nnot found among the \"gypsies and criminal tribes\". (There's no direct\nsuggestion that Marsch looks like them, though.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Marsch/Victor does run away when confronted by this truth, as just mentioned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, he has a long discussion with No. 5, ending only when Aunt Jeannine sends for him. He leaves at another meeting, when No. 5 identifies him as an abo.\nIt doesn't take long for Marsch to be killed and replaced. I suspect all humans on\nSte Anne and Ste Croix have been similarly replaced (except Number Five who lives\ncloistered and protected in his clone castle)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just months in the wilderness, and a couple more years before neo-Marsch \nfelt ready to try his luck in human society." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I believe you misunderstand the reference. The series of clones create\ntheir own environment, and consequently stabilise into a solution that\ndoes not change with time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do not misunderstand. This is exactly what Marsch/Victor tells Number Five, trying\nto explain to him why his cloning experiments don't work; why he doesn't advance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes - the analogy correctly applies to No. 5." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am saying it is ironic because Marsch/Victor is telling Number Five exactly how the\nnative imitative species have managed to duplicate humans almost perfectly, Abos and\nShadow Children being the earlier approximations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't have the same resonance with the mathematical theory, \nbecause the environment changes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, according to your theory, Marsch is surely a very poor example!\nHe would be a second-generation type incapable of properly holding a\npen," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incorrect. Marsch is the replacement for an Abo, making him the third-generation type.\n\nAs is made clear, even the third generation type, while they can use a pen- a very fine motor skill no other animal can approach, they cannot use one with the precision of a true human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then where are the super-abos, as humans on the two planets appear \nto use technology quite well? I'd have thought that your theory would \nhave to make Marsch something of a throwback. He started life, after \nall, as what you would call a second-generation abo, an outcast of \nsociety. The hero as werewolf, if you like.\n\nOf course he is good on theory. But then, the Shadow Children seemed to \nunderstand the principles of space travel and general relativity, even \nif they don't use tools.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T14:55:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11 August 2014 13:31, Lee wrote:\nMarsch is the replacement for an Abo," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find this interesting. If we are to believe Abos imitate other kinds,\nthen they should imitate them along with their imperfections. That would\nsuggest that an Abo imitating an Abo-imitating-a-human would hardly ever\nbe a better imitation of the human, but usually a worse one." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T17:28:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Marques: If we are to believe Abos imitate other kinds,\nthen they should imitate them along with their imperfections. That would\nsuggest that an Abo imitating an Abo-imitating-a-human would hardly ever\nbe a better imitation of the human, but usually a worse one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may be a misunderstanding of this view. Can we assume, hypothetically\n\nthat the original imitative creatures on these planets cannot die? If so, then\n\nthe \"John Marsch\" who visits Number Five after his visit to St. Anne was previously\n\nthe Abo (or \"half-abo\") named \"Victor\". Victor was previously a Shadow Child. And the\n\nShadow Child was previously in the form of some local animal or rock or cloud.\n\n\nIt is fairly well known that Wolfe has admitted that he included literary clues within \n\nthe story that the real name of Number Five is \"Gene Wolfe\". Thus, the name \"Marsch\" may \n\nbe a literary clue that this character may have his real origin among the \"Marshmen\" of \n\nthe Abos. Following the chain of logic, the name \"Shadow Children\" may be a clue that \n\ntheir origin is from some shadowy, shapeless forms, not from humans.\n\n\nAnyway, this scenario, in which the entire (except for Number 5) human population of \n\nboth planets has been replaced by the local, imitative species is not an idea that\n\noriginates with me. I think part of the original idea is that the abnormally \n\nadvanced decay of the infrastructure of Port Mimizon is that the imitation of humans\n\nis still not quite perfect, suffering most in the area of tool use. But the unspoken\n\nominous, conclusion is that this species will eventually spread to Earth.\n\n\n(might the Abo name \"Victor\" also be a hint at which species is winning this conflict?)\n\n\nMy sense is that Gene Wolfe was in a very dark place when he wrote this. It makes sense\n\nto me that he would write a story at this time in his life for which the ultimate conclusion \n\nis- \"Everyone else on the planet is an alien pretending to me human, except me\". Similar,\n\nperhaps, to the existential fear of Dwayne Hoover, in Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions,\n\nwritten at about the same time period." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What did Abos look like before humans arrived in the system?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Some looked like every beast, and some were of fantastic forms inspired \nby the clouds, or lava flows. But most were long, and lived between the \nroots of trees.\n\n\nOkay, so your main objection to the scenario presented is simply that you think the \n\nformless creatures jumped straight into being Abos, rather than taking the \n\nintermediate step of being Shadow Children. I don't see that as a major issue;\n\nthe ultimate result is the same chilling conclusion that the human race is threatened\n\nand perhaps doomed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marsch. He knows who he is. The early parts of Marsch's journal were written by \nthe actual Marsch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think he knows who he is. He blames the change in handwriting on a cat scratch, \n\nIIRC. Not a very good lie, especially in a personal journal unlikely to be read by others. \n\nI see the cat scratch story as part of his own self-deception. \n\n\nLike flight in the face of detection, I think self-deception would serve as a useful evolved\n\n trait in an imitative species. And in imitating humans an easy one, as humans themselves have\n\ndeveloped a large and elaborate capacity for self-deception. (which is what Wolfe is really writing about)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then where are the super-abos, as humans on the two planets appear to use technology quite well?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is debateable. As noted above. Some espousing the scenario I have presented note the abnormal\n\ndecay of Port Mimizon, as though the people there now are not as skilled or motivated with tools as the \n\npeople who built it.\n\n\nIt is a conceit of human beings that our brains and our minds are our finest, most refined and perfect\n\npossessions. As with the Inhumi, I think Wolfe is tweaking our conceit here by suggesting our vaunted minds may be easier to imitate than our hands and their dexterity in tool use. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T18:34:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: May 2014 Wolfe interview in _Technology Review_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that's exactly what has happened and the reason there are no new\nbuildings in Port Mimizon - progressively worse imitations. The inutile\nhand of the abos is represented by the fingers and thumb of port mimizon.\nThe real give away showing that the population is aborigine is the stork\nand staff like legs all the girls have on St. Croix, with leg problems\n(like the black queen Aunt Jeanine, who echoes a never met white queen),\nwhich resonate with the \"heron-like\" walk of the abos in \"A Story\". It is\nhinted that females in particular express leg and mobility problems earlier\nthan males in the dialog of a story as well, and both Aunt Jeanine and\ntheir young female friend have leg issues.\n\nHuman civilization has been almost completely replaced on both worlds by\nabos, save for the replicating number five who is still human and the\nshadow child Marsch. Thus when the French landers show up, it says \"they\"\ndon't know what open hands mean ... but is there any culture on earth that\ndoesn't know what open hands means? It is the aboriginal culture which\ndoesn't understand that, and they have already, instantly, shifted their\nidentification so that \"they\" are the landers who can't understand what\nopen hands mean, mid sentence shifting the pronoun by their assimilation of\na foreign identity.\n\n(Marsch is not an abo, he is an infected vector for Shadow Children)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nOn 11 August 2014 13:31, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marsch is the replacement for an Abo," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this interesting. If we are to believe Abos imitate other kinds,\nthen they should imitate them along with their imperfections. That would\nsuggest that an Abo imitating an Abo-imitating-a-human would hardly ever\nbe a better imitation of the human, but usually a worse one.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }