{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6600", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6600, "subject": "Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2014-08-06T18:26:11+00:00", "last": "2014-08-08T11:15:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-06T18:26:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The God and His Man\n\n\n “The God and His Man” first appeared in *Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction\nMagazine* in 1980.\n\n\n SUMMARY:\n\n\n “Once long, long ago, when the Universe was old, the .. god Isid 1000\n1000E — came to the world of Zed.” He orbits the planet and sees men and\nwomen upon it, and calls a man of Urth to him, a summons which “cannot be\ndisobeyed.” He instructs Man to go down to Zed and look at the men, who\nherd and farm, and the women, who live in idleness or in toil, just like on\nUrth.\n\n Man says he will go, but that he will never see his family again without\nspecial help, “For the men of Zed are men ... And therefore crueler than\nany beast.” The god says he seeks to end that cruelty, and gives him a\ncloak of invisibility called Tarnung and a Maser, against which not even\nstone can stand.\n\nHe is transported to a grove of trees with scarlet flowers, and wanders in\n“the high, hot lands where men have few laws and many slaves.” After he\ngrows ashamed of killing with Maser, he picks up the local weapon, a\ncrooked sword.\n\n\n He gathers a group around him and establishes a citadel in the mountains\nafter winning wars. Spears and spells protect it. Here he is surrounded by\nwhite domes and fountains, as well as dancers, preoccupied telling stories\nof war and victory before tiring of them and disappearing.\n\n\n In the steaming lands, he finds trees taller than his towers and men who\nfought with stealth and poisoned arrows. He casts his sword into the river,\nbut keeps Maser. He learns the ways of the trees “of which each is an\nisland, with its own dwellers thereon” and the ways of the beasts, who are\nless clever than men but wiser. He tames a panther and smotes an idol, then\nvanishes, and a year later returns to rule, and enjoys the life of a\nchieftain, with war canoes, wives kept pale and beautiful, riding an\nelephant. He would have stayed there if not for a dream sent by Isid 1000\n1000E to seek the cold lands.\n\n\n There, “the people of the cold lands keep no slaves and have many laws,\nand their justice is the wonder of strangers; and so he found the bread of\nthe cold lands hard and scant, and for a long time he cleaned boots for it,\nand for a long time dug ditches to drain their fields.” In order to free\nhimself from this low class and toilsome life, he gets rid of his shovel,\ncuts a staff, and begins to teach, always beneath a green tree, where he\ntalked of honor, and how it is higher than law, and freedom. “Beside city\ngates he told stories of the forgotten cities that were and of the\nforgotten cities that might be, if only men would forget them.” He vanishes\nfrom justice, and “many among the youth of the cold lands heard him, and\nmany feigned to follow his teachings, and a few did follow them and lived\nstrange lives.”\n\n\n Then Isid 1000 1000E drew him up “as the puppeteer lifts his doll” when\nthe snow starts, and he finds himself young again before the god, though\nhis cunning is gone.\n\n\n The god asked which of the three peoples loved him and why Man loved them.\nHe says that the people of the hot lands are unjust without falsity,\nhelping friends and crushing foes, living without trust. The cold lands\npeople are just but somewhat unlovable, and the steaming lands are innocent\nof the concept of justice, following their hearts, and he loved them best\nof all.\n\n\n The god claims that the people of the cold lands are the closest to his\nheart, and that in time the steaming land must fall to one or the other.\nMan pictures the people of the cold lands subjugating the natural world,\nand “though they took no slaves [driving] the people of the steaming lands\nbehind certain fences and walls, where they sat in the dust until they\ndied.”\n\n\n Here the Man thinks that in the hot lands, even though the people of the\nsteaming lands would have suffered and worked as slaves, some could be\nhappy.\n\n\n Isid says, “It is better a man should die than be a slave.” The Man kills\nthe god with Maser, and the end questions what happened to man, and who\nguards his citadel or sends the arrows of the steaming land.\n\n\n “But it may be that all these things now are passed, or they are things of\nlong ago, when the Universe was old and there were more gods.”\n\n\n COMMENTARY: Each of the lands, the hot, steamy, and cold, corresponds to a\ntype of society. Man experiences each type starting from the bottom and\nascending to the top. (He follows this pattern on the ship of Isid 1000\n1000E as well — starting as servant and ending as master).\n\n\n The hot lands involved a rigid system that was primitive in its attitudes,\nwith both slaves and rulers, and his prowess at war allowed him to build an\nopulent retreat like a pleasure palace, perhaps reminiscent of ancient\nGreece or Rome, where there is definite class separation and slaves as well\nas some civilization. Man calls them unjust without falsity. The people\nhere seem devoid of religious sentiment, so it does not quite fit with an\nAztec or Mayan structure, though the class structure might resemble those\ncivilizations at times.\n\n\n The steamy lands involve a population reminiscent of some of the more\nnomadic Native Americans or pygmy forest populations, and rather than\nascend to power through killing, he puts aside his heavy sword and destroys\nan idol, setting himself up in its place, where he enjoys a primitive but\nfree existence as something like a tribal chief — here, his power is gained\nthrough more mystical ends and he can do what he wants to do — there is\nfreedom.\n\n\n In the cold lands, he becomes trapped in a story of low mimesis — an\nordinary man doing ordinary things. His only escape is to do use\nphilosophy, religion, and mysticism to talk of things beyond the laws.\nHere, this spiritual devotion to higher ideals like freedom and honor allow\nhim to escape a life of labor, but he is at odds with the society, even\nthough he is “on top” of his followers. Only those mystical eccentricities\ngrant him escape, and he sees that if the people of the cold land win they\nwill destroy the freedom of seeking the hearts desire — the images Wolfe\nemploys are fairly similar to the subjugation of the Native American tribes\nin the United States, shunted and penned in to small areas while “no slaves\nare taken”.\n\n\n The best system for Man was one where he could follow his heart, a natural\none where mysticism rather than war could triumph, but one where honor and\nfreedom where not curtailed by excessive laws and burdensome jobs — the\nstory rejects the modern world in favor of a much more primitive one.\n\n\n The mixture of hot (passionate and alive but not free) and cold (governed\nby laws and “justice” but still somehow not free) creates the steam (the\npeople follow their hearts free of the concerns of true civilization).\n\n\n Since the god Isid 1000 1000E here represents extreme order and justice,\nhe also comes to represent an almost ironic impediment to freedom and\nindividuality. Man destroys him and completes his ascension from bottom to\ntop, though clearly Isid 1000 000E is another man made construct which has\nassumed the power of a “god”, even though it pays lip service to justice\nand to eliminating cruelty.\n\n\n The death of Isid is surprising from the pen of the Catholic Gene Wolfe,\nbut perhaps more inherent in the rebellion of Man is the rejection of the\nmodern world, with its overarching rules and spirit killing jobs — freedom\nis destroyed. Isid is more like a future outgrowth of society, a man made\ncomputer God, than a mystical one who cherishes true free will to follow\nthe heart.\n\n\n It has been claimed that this is one of the stories from the brown\nbook in *The\nBook of the New Sun*.\n\n\n Urth is named after the goddess of fate who personified the past, and the\nending substantiates this naming system — these events happened long ago,\nand since then artificial gods have been cast down.\n\n\n In his comments in *The Best of Gene Wolfe*, Wolfe states:\n\n\n This is a story of which I cannot say anything of real substance. On its\nfirst publication, the word *maser* was changed by the proof-reader (I was\ntold, at least, that it was by the proofreader) to *master*. Not all the\ntime, only sometimes The stories of other writers have suffered worse\nthings, but when I read this one — I can focus on nothing else. Most of you\nwill already know what a maser is: a microwave amplifier. Let us say you\nhave this microwave, one that will scarcely hold a sixteen-inch frozen\npizza. With a maser, you could make it a great big house-sized thing you\nmight induce a proofreader to walk into ?\n\n\n It is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is German\nfor camouflage or disguise.\n\n\n LITERARY ALLUSIONS:\n\n\n “The God and His Man” resembles the short fantasy fables of Lord Dunsany,\nand never seems to reach the level of allegory.\n\n\n I do feel that Northrop Frye's nomenclature would be useful in looking at\nthe cultures present on Zed, such that we could see high mimesis in the hot\nlands where people can forge their own destiny, possibly mythic strains in\nthe steaming lands, and low mimesis in the cold lands were ordinary people\nare trapped in mundane and banal tasks with little chance of escape except\nrejecting the system and becoming outcasts.\n\n\n\n UNANSWERED QUESTIONS:\n\n\n While Zed is the French for the letter Z, implying a kind of finality, is\nthere any significance to Isid 1000 1000E besides resembling a serial\nnumber? It is said that he has other names.\n\n\n CONNECTION TO OTHER WORKS:\n\n\n Wolfe's critique of the modern world continues in “Four Wolves” and\n“Redwood Coast Roamer”, but the attitude of a ruler who understands his\nsubjects needs poorly will be repeated in the gods of the Whorl. This story\nis slightly more didactic than some of Wolfe's other literary myths, like\n“Love Among the Corridors” or “At the Point of Capricorn.”" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Yves Meynard", "address": "meynard at videotron.ca" }, "date": "2014-08-06T23:52:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When it comes to the god's name, I never read it as \"Isid 1000 1000 E\" but as \"Isid Iooo Iooo E\". \"Iooo Iooo\" would be a \"double Iooo\", or W, which would yield \"ICWE\" as the original name, whose meaning has been corrupted. I find no obvious candidates on the web for the meaning of this acronym. \"Integrated Circuit\" was once a common meaning of IC. Does W stand in for Weapon? Or is there a Wolf(e) involved?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-08-07T00:03:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIt is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is German for\ncamouflage or disguise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tarnung is likely a Ring reference to the Tarnhelm, which grants\ninvisibility. Given that the other magic item is a maser which creates\nwaves of coherent straight radiation, the Tarnung probably bends light\nto achieve invisibility.\n\nThe Ring cycle would be an interesting theme to bring in, as it too\ninvolves the fall of gods." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T00:34:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a vague feeling he might be more like an appliance, like a sentient\nmicrowave or oven or something, but I have no real reason to believe this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Yves Meynard wrote:\nWhen it comes to the god's name, I never read it as \"Isid 1000 1000 E\" but\nas \"Isid Iooo Iooo E\". \"Iooo Iooo\" would be a \"double Iooo\", or W, which\nwould yield \"ICWE\" as the original name, whose meaning has been corrupted.\nI find no obvious candidates on the web for the meaning of this acronym.\n\"Integrated Circuit\" was once a common meaning of IC. Does W stand in for\nWeapon? Or is there a Wolf(e) involved?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T00:47:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then again. the only thing more difficult than interpreting some of Wolfe's\nmore obscure stuff is deciphering the lyrics to Louie Louie by The\nKingsmen/Richard Berry - maybe this story combines the two in the ultimate\nmess of indechiperability. A radio stuck on Louie Louie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Yves Meynard wrote:\nWhen it comes to the god's name, I never read it as \"Isid 1000 1000 E\" but\nas \"Isid Iooo Iooo E\". \"Iooo Iooo\" would be a \"double Iooo\", or W, which\nwould yield \"ICWE\" as the original name, whose meaning has been corrupted.\nI find no obvious candidates on the web for the meaning of this acronym.\n\"Integrated Circuit\" was once a common meaning of IC. Does W stand in for\nWeapon? Or is there a Wolf(e) involved?\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53B85D0B00F00366@smtpout08.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "mo at holkar.net" }, "date": "2014-08-07T09:23:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:03 07/08/2014, Gwern wrote:\nOn Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is German for\ncamouflage or disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tarnung is likely a Ring reference to the Tarnhelm, which grants\ninvisibility. Given that the other magic item is a maser which creates\nwaves of coherent straight radiation, the Tarnung probably bends light\nto achieve invisibility.\n\nThe Ring cycle would be an interesting theme to bring in, as it too\ninvolves the fall of gods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A thought that's just occurred -- is it possible that the name \n\"Tarnung\" indicates a response of sorts to the Glimmung (which means \nroughly \"brightness\") in Philip K. Dick's novel Galactic Pot-Healer? \nThis is also about a human man sent on a mission to an alien planet \nby a godlike being, and its themes (conformity vs creativity, the \nneed to obey gods or not) are such as might have resonated with Wolfe.\n\nbest,\n\nMo " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T12:21:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always wonder at how much is direct reference and how much is zeitgeist.\nWolfe almost never mentions Dick as an influence, and once, because of the\nreligious forces at work in Dune, said Dune had little to no impact on his\nwriting. I have read a fair amount of Dick (my favorite is Flow My Tears\nthe Policeman Said because of the lonely woman's take on pets, if I\nremember right, and Ubik was pretty good) but not galactic pot healer.\n\nAnd to be honest part of the reason I never read it is probably a reaction\nto the title - I am trying to imagine 60 year old Wolfe reading a book with\n\"galactic pot healer\" on the cover." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday, August 7, 2014, Mo Holkar wrote:\nAt 01:03 07/08/2014, Gwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is German\nfor\ncamouflage or disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tarnung is likely a Ring reference to the Tarnhelm, which grants\ninvisibility. Given that the other magic item is a maser which creates\nwaves of coherent straight radiation, the Tarnung probably bends light\nto achieve invisibility.\n\nThe Ring cycle would be an interesting theme to bring in, as it too\ninvolves the fall of gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A thought that's just occurred -- is it possible that the name \"Tarnung\"\nindicates a response of sorts to the Glimmung (which means roughly\n\"brightness\") in Philip K. Dick's novel Galactic Pot-Healer? This is also\nabout a human man sent on a mission to an alien planet by a godlike being,\nand its themes (conformity vs creativity, the need to obey gods or not) are\nsuch as might have resonated with Wolfe.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brad Henry", "address": "bradhenry101 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T12:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc,\nIf you could--and just out of curiosity--what did Wolfe mean by the\n'religious forces at work' in Dune, and why would that have meant Dune\nwould not have left an impact on him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI always wonder at how much is direct reference and how much is zeitgeist.\nWolfe almost never mentions Dick as an influence, and once, because of the\nreligious forces at work in Dune, said Dune had little to no impact on his\nwriting. I have read a fair amount of Dick (my favorite is Flow My Tears\nthe Policeman Said because of the lonely woman's take on pets, if I\nremember right, and Ubik was pretty good) but not galactic pot healer.\n\nAnd to be honest part of the reason I never read it is probably a reaction\nto the title - I am trying to imagine 60 year old Wolfe reading a book with\n\"galactic pot healer\" on the cover.\n\n\nOn Thursday, August 7, 2014, Mo Holkar wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 01:03 07/08/2014, Gwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is\nGerman for\ncamouflage or disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Tarnung is likely a Ring reference to the Tarnhelm, which grants\ninvisibility. Given that the other magic item is a maser which creates\nwaves of coherent straight radiation, the Tarnung probably bends light\nto achieve invisibility.\n\nThe Ring cycle would be an interesting theme to bring in, as it too\ninvolves the fall of gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A thought that's just occurred -- is it possible that the name \"Tarnung\"\nindicates a response of sorts to the Glimmung (which means roughly\n\"brightness\") in Philip K. Dick's novel Galactic Pot-Healer? This is also\nabout a human man sent on a mission to an alien planet by a godlike being,\nand its themes (conformity vs creativity, the need to obey gods or not) are\nsuch as might have resonated with Wolfe.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T12:55:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some asked him about how much of an impact or influence Dune had on him and\nhis writing, referring to the praxis of religious thought with the Freman\n(all these prophecies and gene scheming plans to produce a \"foretold\" but\nultimately secular power who controls a world with a religion he did not\ngrow up in, etc.) and Wolfe simply said little to none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 5:34 AM, Brad Henry wrote:\nMarc,\nIf you could--and just out of curiosity--what did Wolfe mean by the\n'religious forces at work' in Dune, and why would that have meant Dune\nwould not have left an impact on him?\n\n\nOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I always wonder at how much is direct reference and how much is\nzeitgeist. Wolfe almost never mentions Dick as an influence, and once,\nbecause of the religious forces at work in Dune, said Dune had little to no\nimpact on his writing. I have read a fair amount of Dick (my favorite is\nFlow My Tears the Policeman Said because of the lonely woman's take on\npets, if I remember right, and Ubik was pretty good) but not galactic pot\nhealer.\n\nAnd to be honest part of the reason I never read it is probably a\nreaction to the title - I am trying to imagine 60 year old Wolfe reading a\nbook with \"galactic pot healer\" on the cover.\n\n\nOn Thursday, August 7, 2014, Mo Holkar wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "At 01:03 07/08/2014, Gwern wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is\nGerman for\ncamouflage or disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Tarnung is likely a Ring reference to the Tarnhelm, which grants\ninvisibility. Given that the other magic item is a maser which creates\nwaves of coherent straight radiation, the Tarnung probably bends light\nto achieve invisibility.\n\nThe Ring cycle would be an interesting theme to bring in, as it too\ninvolves the fall of gods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A thought that's just occurred -- is it possible that the name \"Tarnung\"\nindicates a response of sorts to the Glimmung (which means roughly\n\"brightness\") in Philip K. Dick's novel Galactic Pot-Healer? This is also\nabout a human man sent on a mission to an alien planet by a godlike being,\nand its themes (conformity vs creativity, the need to obey gods or not) are\nsuch as might have resonated with Wolfe.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53B86F7E01B730DD@rgout03.bt.lon5.cpcloud.co.uk>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "mo at holkar.net" }, "date": "2014-08-07T15:15:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Wolfe was only 38 when Galactic Pot-Healer \ncame out: and I think most serious SF readers in \nthe late 60s would have been keeping up with \nDick's output, as he was doing some very interesting things with the form.\n\nI expect you're right, though: the zeitgeist is a strong factor.\n\n(I'm interested now to know what Wolfe thinks and \nthought of Dick's work. Is that on record in any of the interviews etc?)\n\nbest,\n\nMo" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 13:21 07/08/2014, you wrote:\nI always wonder at how much is direct reference \nand how much is zeitgeist. Wolfe almost never \nmentions Dick as an influence, and once, because \nof the religious forces at work in Dune, said \nDune had little to no impact on his writing. I \nhave read a fair amount of Dick (my favorite is \nFlow My Tears the Policeman Said? because of the \nlonely? woman's take on pets, if I remember \nright, and Ubik was pretty good) but not galactic pot healer.\n\nAnd to be honest part of the reason I never read \nit is probably? a reaction to the title - I am \ntrying to imagine 60 year old Wolfe reading a \nbook with \"galactic pot healer\" on the cover.\n\nOn Thursday, August 7, 2014, Mo Holkar \n<mo at holkar.net> wrote:\nAt 01:03 07/08/2014, Gwern wrote:\nOn Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 2:26 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is likely Tarnung was capable of affecting light waves. It is German for\ncamouflage or disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tarnung is likely a Ring reference to the Tarnhelm, which grants\ninvisibility. Given that the other magic item is a maser which creates\nwaves of coherent straight radiation, the Tarnung probably bends light\nto achieve invisibility.\n\nThe Ring cycle would be an interesting theme to bring in, as it too\ninvolves the fall of gods.\n\n\n\nA thought that's just occurred -- is it possible \nthat the name \"Tarnung\" indicates a response of \nsorts to the Glimmung (which means roughly \n\"brightness\") in Philip K. Dick's novel Galactic \nPot-Healer? This is also about a human man sent \non a mission to an alien planet by a godlike \nbeing, and its themes (conformity vs creativity, \nthe need to obey gods or not) are such as might have resonated with Wolfe.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-08-07T15:47:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 11:15 AM, Mo Holkar wrote:\n(I'm interested now to know what Wolfe thinks and thought of Dick's work. Is\nthat on record in any of the interviews etc?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dicken doesn't seem to come up much. In the one hit in the copies I have:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "TimOPod: gene:do you think phillip k dick is under rated..or even over looked\n...\nGeneWolfe: PKDick: I'm going to say yes. That's debatable, but I'm going to say yes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Herbert came up in the same session though:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GUSRADIO: Gene do you feel you were influenced by Frank Herert at all?\n...\nGeneWolfe: Frank Herbert: Little or none." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Might be more hits on Urth.net but you'll have to struggle through all\nthe hits for Emily Dickinson and Charles Dickens." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D1809BD2A2DDDC-2788-36B7@webmail-d217.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "jbarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2014-08-07T21:15:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... and Gene Wolfe is fully capable of writing about sentient appliances, as \"Frostfree\" makes clear....\n\nJohn\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Marc Aramini \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wed, Aug 6, 2014 7:34 pm\nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man\n\n\nI have a vague feeling he might be more like an appliance, like a sentient microwave or oven or something, but I have no real reason to believe this.\n\n\nOn Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Yves Meynard wrote:\n\nWhen it comes to the god's name, I never read it as \"Isid 1000 1000 E\" but as \"Isid Iooo Iooo E\". \"Iooo Iooo\" would be a \"double Iooo\", or W, which would yield \"ICWE\" as the original name, whose meaning has been corrupted. I find no obvious candidates on the web for the meaning of this acronym. \"Integrated Circuit\" was once a common meaning of IC. Does W stand in for Weapon? Or is there a Wolf(e) involved?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1407496547.47218.YahooMailNeo@web171305.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Richard Simon", "address": "gallebuck at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2014-08-08T11:15:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 82: The God and His Man", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Isid iooo ioooeee\" is the sound of static heard on a radio.\n\n\nOn Friday, 8 August 2014, 14:32, Marc Aramini wrote:\n \n\n\nThen again. the only thing more difficult than interpreting some of Wolfe's more obscure stuff is deciphering the lyrics to Louie Louie by The Kingsmen/Richard Berry?- maybe this story combines the two in the ultimate mess of indechiperability. A radio stuck on Louie Louie.\n\n\nOn Wed, Aug 6, 2014 at 4:52 PM, Yves Meynard wrote:\n\nWhen it comes to the god's name, I never read it as \"Isid 1000 1000 E\" but as \"Isid Iooo Iooo E\". \"Iooo Iooo\" would be a \"double Iooo\", or W, which would yield \"ICWE\" as the original name, whose meaning has been corrupted. I find no obvious candidates on the web for the meaning of this acronym. \"Integrated Circuit\" was once a common meaning of IC. Does W stand in for Weapon? Or is there a Wolf(e) involved?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] } ] }