{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6612", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6612, "subject": "Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "messages": 24, "voices": 5, "first": "2014-08-11T18:44:24+00:00", "last": "2014-08-20T12:16:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T18:44:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think an important point is being missed here. People keep treating \"A\nStory\" as if it were reliable. Give some thought to who wrote it and why\nand then decide whether (and to what extent) you think it's reliable." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T18:59:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is Marsch's origin story overlain on the historical tale.\n\nThere is a wonderful scene where the cat is running around trying to bite\nhim in the third novella and he narrowly escapes, and both the audience and\nMarsch are unaware of the severe consequences of the bite, giving him a few\nmore days. He is bitten on the major Rogation Day." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\nI think an important point is being missed here. People keep treating \"A\nStory\" as if it were reliable. Give some thought to who wrote it and why\nand then decide whether (and to what extent) you think it's reliable.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T19:02:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The end of \"A Story\" hinges on a very ambiguous switch: indeterminacy\nbetween Lander and aboriginal, indeterminacy between Eastwind and\nSandwalker. Though of course in the final analysis it is Eastwind and the\nabos who actually survive, though both groups believe them to be the other\nSandwalker and the Landers.\n\nThe switch for Eastwind is a bite, and in that way it tells the origin\nstory of the shadow child Marsch. This is the climax of A Story, and the\nclimax of the origin as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:\nIt is Marsch's origin story overlain on the historical tale.\n\nThere is a wonderful scene where the cat is running around trying to bite\nhim in the third novella and he narrowly escapes, and both the audience and\nMarsch are unaware of the severe consequences of the bite, giving him a few\nmore days. He is bitten on the major Rogation Day.\n\n\nOn Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think an important point is being missed here. People keep treating \"A\nStory\" as if it were reliable. Give some thought to who wrote it and why\nand then decide whether (and to what extent) you think it's reliable.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-11T19:03:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "... believe themselves to be the other, Sandwalker and the Landers.\n\nThat ending probably makes more sense grammatically." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 12:02 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:\nThe end of \"A Story\" hinges on a very ambiguous switch: indeterminacy\nbetween Lander and aboriginal, indeterminacy between Eastwind and\nSandwalker. Though of course in the final analysis it is Eastwind and the\nabos who actually survive, though both groups believe them to be the other\nSandwalker and the Landers.\n\nThe switch for Eastwind is a bite, and in that way it tells the origin\nstory of the shadow child Marsch. This is the climax of A Story, and the\nclimax of the origin as well.\n\n\nOn Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:59 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is Marsch's origin story overlain on the historical tale.\n\nThere is a wonderful scene where the cat is running around trying to bite\nhim in the third novella and he narrowly escapes, and both the audience and\nMarsch are unaware of the severe consequences of the bite, giving him a few\nmore days. He is bitten on the major Rogation Day.\n\n\nOn Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think an important point is being missed here. People keep treating \"A\nStory\" as if it were reliable. Give some thought to who wrote it and why\nand then decide whether (and to what extent) you think it's reliable.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53EA9A07.1040600@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2014-08-12T22:49:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/12/2014 12:20 PM, Lee wrote:\nThird, your post implies that \"simpler is better\" a premise I don't\nthink holds true in fiction. Looking at the entire body of Wolfe's\nwork, are we really expected to always find the simplest answer\npossible? Is his fiction really meant to be a science laboratory with\nOccam's Razor as our primary tool of understanding?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A complex explanation should explain more, better, than the simple one\nit replaces. In this case, the apparent possibility of two races is\nmaddening, and especially because it seems binary.\n\nBut were there not two waves of colonization on the planets? Two planets\nto evolve on? Seems to me a single imitative species that evolves twice\nor even splits into two or more fits this very well---after all, when\nhas there ever been a migration where there were not those left behind?\nAnd \"two worlds\" or \"twins\" (not quite like one another) has always been\na Wolfean motif. A single alien species (and a single human contingent)\nisn't enough. But . . .\n\nIt seems to me that 5HC is most forcefully about two coexisting worlds.\nNot two planets, but the one we see and the real one: at a minimum, a\n/doubling /of perspectives. The two waves on the two worlds suggests two\nwaves of something else. (If not four.)\n\n---We see French colonizers and think of European seizure of the New\nWorld; what do the natives see? Prey? Gods?\n\n---We see another wave of colonists and gunships; what do the natives\nsee? Themselves? Their old selves and the new? Parasites?\n\n---What do the French colonists see when their fellow Euros arrive? (if\nthey are still French?)\n\nI agree with Gerry that humans-to-SC and natives-to-abos is simpler.\nIt's almost TOO simple. It's like a first-order (i.e., second-level)\ntwist in a colonial narrative where the white men become\nworse-than-natives and the savage natives prove themselves\nbetter-than-(white)men. What's needed here is a narrative theory with at\nleast two orders of \"twist.\" Maybe even five, as Marc hints.\n\nMarc's mites theory is factually compelling and has the requisite\nstory-twisted-to-the-fourth-power, but I admit I can't stand it. It has\nno meaning for me. This leaves me stuck in the same limbo where the\ndid-inhumi-really-fly-between-worlds problem left me: I'm sentimentally\nattached to an interpretation that yields some scrap of meaning for me.\nIn this case, that means a doubling of everything. The theory Gerry\nrejects feels better to me, and it allows one species to be a parasite\non the other as well as other possibilities." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-13T12:44:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53EA9A07.1040600@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: But were there not two waves of colonization on the planets?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the first human contact in the system was the crash of one starship. I think the first human source material the native imitative creatures had to work with was dying or even dead humans. (perhaps only their spirits?).\n\n\nHence the massive imperfection of Shadow Children as imitative copies of humans. They struggle with\n\neven the basic (to us) concept that a person = one individual. When Sandwalker and the Old Wise One are in the pit together, they try to touch each other at different times and each time the Shadow Child proves too insubstantial and passes right through Sandwalker's body.\n\n\nWe are given a story that chewing a certain weed has changed humans into Shadow Children. Maybe we can accept that stunted growth an bowed legs could be the result of such a thing. Shining eyes and telepathic powers are a lot more questionable. And intangibility seems too much of a task to ask of any weed.\n\n\nConversely, if Shadow Children are indeed the offspring or product of shadowy, native beings, everything about Shadow Children makes sense to me. Their name, their imperfect human form, their telepathy, their pluralism and their intangibility are all explained. \n\n\nThe Old Wise One also makes a comment about them being there when men first arrived. He then admits he is confused and doesn't know which story is true. With this, I think Wolfe is clearly giving his readers the choice of which story to believe. And, as this discussion demonstrates, some of his readers prefer one story and others prefer the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We see French colonizers and think of European seizure of the NewWorld; what do the natives see? Prey?>Gods?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A bit of both? The most sincere form of flattery is imitation?\n\n\nColonization is criticized for imposing a foreign culture on native peoples. But then we notice the British have the habit of drinking tea and eating curry and the whole Euro-centric world eating Asian and Latino inspired foods and dancing to music based on African rhythms, not to mention the massive waves of \n\ndirect immigration of people from the Third World\" to the \"First World\". Who and what do the Abos represent in our modern world?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc's mites theory is factually compelling and has the requisitestory-twisted-to-the-fourth-power, but>I admit I can't stand it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Marc often zooms so far ahead we are all left eating his dust. Sigh...I admire him, even if it is only his tail lights I am able to see, sometimes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This leaves me stuck in the same limbo where the did-inhumi-really-fly-between-worlds problem left me:>I'm sentimentally attached to an interpretation that yields some scrap of meaning for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope I am allowed some license to be a cynic here. Is it \"meaning\" or \"entertainment\" you receive when you think about those cool hordes of Inhumi soaring across the void between planets?\n\n\nI ask because I will recognize one of my own personal biases here. Many people (around the world) enjoy the antics of \"The Trickster\", the fictional (and sometimes real world) character who is able to tell an implausible story so entertainingly that it becomes fun to believe it. My bias is that I am not so entertained by \"The Trickster\". And when I feel the deceit is being done to hurt or take advantage of others, I react rather violently against the process. Even fictional characters in this vein can get me boiling a bit.\n\n\nThus, once I had identified the Inhumi as tricksters and liars I was primed to disbelieve anything about them that smelled fishy. For me, the story of flying between planets isn't harmless fun. It is part of the disguise of their \"stowaway\" transportation strategy, which facilitates the galactic spread of a harmful, manipulative parasitic, blood-sucking species. Like the Abos, they will infiltrate your family and your society and take over, without you knowing it. Given that, I just can't find the fun in the lies of the Inhumi..(okay, okay, settle down...it's just a story.....) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53EB7C99.90905@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-13T14:56:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 13/08/2014 13:44, Lee wrote:\nI think the first human contact in the system was the crash of one \nstarship. I think the first human source material the native imitative \ncreatures had to work with was dying or even dead humans. (perhaps \nonly their spirits?). Hence the massive imperfection of Shadow \nChildren as imitative copies of humans. They struggle with even the \nbasic (to us) concept that a person = one individual. When Sandwalker \nand the Old Wise One are in the pit together, they try to touch each \nother at different times and each time the Shadow Child proves too \ninsubstantial and passes right through Sandwalker's body." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But The Old Wise One is NOT a Shadow Child. He is not physical, but \ncreated from the consciousness of the nearby Shadow Children and (as an \nincreasing proportion) Sandwalker. It's very clear that the Shadow \nChildren are solid humanoid creatures (if they were not, they would \nprovide unsatisfying meals for the Marshmen), and that the Old Wise One \n(whom Sandwalker first assumes to be a ghost, and who notes that once he \nwas sometimes called the Group Norm) is different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are given a story that chewing a certain weed has changed humans \ninto Shadow Children. Maybe we can accept that stunted growth an bowed \nlegs could be the result of such a thing. Shining eyes and telepathic \npowers are a lot more questionable. And intangibility seems too much \nof a task to ask of any weed. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The effects don't extend to intangibility. But telepathy creates the \nintangible Old Wise One." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Conversely, if Shadow Children are indeed the offspring or product of \nshadowy, native beings, everything about Shadow Children makes sense \nto me. Their name, their imperfect human form, their telepathy, their \npluralism and their intangibility are all explained. The Old Wise One \nalso makes a comment about them being there when men first arrived. He \nthen admits he is confused and doesn't know which story is true. With \nthis, I think Wolfe is clearly giving his readers the choice of which \nstory to believe. And, as this discussion demonstrates, some of his \nreaders prefer one story and others prefer the other. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And his confusion only starts as the Shadow Children are eliminated and \nSandwalker forms an increasing part of his consciousness.\n\nThis is all made quite explicit in the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1407961423.92374.YahooMailNeo@web120306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2014-08-13T20:23:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like your explanation for the \"two\" species, at least as a \"surface\" explanation (which really is a subsurface explanation, but then this is Wolfe). It's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of.\n\nAnd your point about \"entertainment\" is exactly correct. Of course, what entertains us and what entertains Gene Wolfe appears to be not entirely the same. \n\n\nAs you say, you do have to stop and consider what he was trying to do. We have a standard sc-fi-as-retelling-of-20th-century-history, which is completely fake. It feels like the old joke of a movie set for a Western that consists entirely of facades that fall down when you shoot at them. It's so fake it doesn't even work as a fake. Then we have a sci-fi under-story which is itself quite shaky. And so on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 13, 2014 8:45 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: But were there not two waves of colonization on the planets?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the first human contact in the system was the crash of one starship. I think the first human source material the native imitative creatures had to work with was dying or even dead humans. (perhaps only their spirits?).\n\n\nHence the massive imperfection of Shadow Children as imitative copies of humans. They struggle with\n\neven the basic (to us) concept that a person = one individual. When Sandwalker and the Old Wise One are in the pit together, they try to touch each other at different times and each time the Shadow Child proves too insubstantial and passes right through Sandwalker's body.\n\n\nWe are given a story that chewing a certain weed has changed humans into Shadow Children. Maybe we can accept that stunted growth an bowed legs could be the result of such a thing. Shining eyes and telepathic powers are a lot more questionable. And intangibility seems too much of a task to ask of any weed.\n\n\nConversely, if Shadow Children are indeed the offspring or product of shadowy, native beings, everything about Shadow Children makes sense to me. Their name, their imperfect human form, their telepathy, their pluralism and their intangibility are all explained. \n\n\nThe Old Wise One also makes a comment about them being there when men first arrived. He then admits he is confused and doesn't know which story is true. With this, I think Wolfe is clearly giving his readers the choice of which story to believe. And, as this discussion demonstrates, some of his readers prefer one story and others prefer the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We see French colonizers and think of European seizure of the NewWorld; what do the natives see? Prey?>Gods?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A bit of both? The most sincere form of flattery is imitation?\n\n\nColonization is criticized for imposing a foreign culture on native peoples. But then we notice the British have the habit of drinking tea and eating curry and the whole Euro-centric world eating Asian and Latino inspired foods and dancing to music based on African rhythms, not to mention the massive waves of \n\ndirect immigration of people from the Third World\" to the \"First World\". Who and what do the Abos represent in our modern world?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc's mites theory is factually compelling and has the requisitestory-twisted-to-the-fourth-power, but>I admit I can't stand it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Marc often zooms so far ahead we are all left eating his dust. Sigh...I admire him, even if it is only his tail lights I am able to see, sometimes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This leaves me stuck in the same limbo where the did-inhumi-really-fly-between-worlds problem left me:>I'm sentimentally attached to an interpretation that yields some scrap of meaning for me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope I am allowed some license to be a cynic here. Is it \"meaning\" or \"entertainment\" you receive when you think about those cool hordes of Inhumi soaring across the void between planets?\n\n\nI ask because I will recognize one of my own personal biases here. Many people (around the world) enjoy the antics of \"The Trickster\", the fictional (and sometimes real world) character who is able to tell an implausible story so entertainingly that it becomes fun to believe it. My bias is that I am not so entertained by \"The Trickster\". And when I feel the deceit is being done to hurt or take advantage of others, I react rather violently against the process. Even fictional characters in this vein can get me boiling a bit.\n\n\nThus, once I had identified the Inhumi as tricksters and liars I was primed to disbelieve anything about them that smelled fishy. For me, the story of flying between planets isn't harmless fun. It is part of the disguise of their \"stowaway\" transportation strategy, which facilitates the galactic spread of a harmful, manipulative parasitic, blood-sucking species. Like the Abos, they will infiltrate your family and your society and take over, without you knowing it. Given that, I just can't find the fun in the lies of the Inhumi..(okay, okay, settle down...it's just a story.....) ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-14T14:51:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<1407961423.92374.YahooMailNeo@web120306.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But The Old Wise One is NOT a Shadow Child. He is not physical, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but created from the consciousness of the nearby Shadow Children and (as an \nincreasing proportion) Sandwalker. It's very clear that the Shadow \nChildren are solid humanoid creatures (if they were not, they would \nprovide unsatisfying meals for the Marshmen), and that the Old Wise One \n(whom Sandwalker first assumes to be a ghost, and who notes that once he \nwas sometimes called the Group Norm) is different." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An interesting theory. I like it! It does explain why the Old Wise One is \n\nintangible while the others can be eaten. I must wonder why Sandwalker would\n\nstart to be incorporated in this telepathic construct when he doesn't chew the \n\nweed, and isn't the same species as Shadow Children. I think Sandwalker's \n\nincorporation would be evidence that Abos and Shadow Children are of the\n\nsame original, telepathic species.\n\n\nThen there is that name. \"Shadow Children\" too perfectly describes an origin\n\nfrom shadowy, shapeless beings and in no way indicates a human origin. Given\n\nthe body of Wolfe's work, I find that names can be more important clues to the\n\nsolution of mysteries than pages and pages of text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And his confusion only starts as the Shadow Children are eliminated and \nSandwalker forms an increasing part of his consciousness" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it increased confusion or increased clarity? We can't know for sure. We\n\nare given two scenarios and a choice. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53EF892D.10309@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-16T16:39:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 1 Aug 2014 09:07:24 , Lee wrote:\n//> /Gerry Quinn: But The Old Wise One is NOT a Shadow Child. He is \nnot physical, /\n//>/but created from the consciousness of the nearby Shadow Children \nand (as an\n/>//>/increasing proportion) Sandwalker. It's very clear that the Shadow /\n//>/Children are solid humanoid creatures (if they were not, they would /\n//>/provide unsatisfying meals for the Marshmen), and that the Old \nWise One /\n//> /(whom Sandwalker first assumes to be a ghost, and who notes that \nonce he" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "//>///>/was sometimes called the Group Norm) is different. /" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "//An interesting theory. I like it!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you think of my theory that Mr. Million is an electronic \nsimulation? Because I thought up that in the same way. It's simply what \nWolfe tells us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " It does explain why the Old Wise One is intangible\n//while the others can be eaten. I must wonder why Sandwalker would \nstart to be\n//incorporated in this telepathic construct when he doesn't chew the \nweed, and\n//isn't the same species as Shadow Children." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recall the speech of the Old Wise One when he speaks of the two peoples \n- the ones who \"used their hands, when they had hands, only to take \nfood\", and the others who \"crossed from star to star\". \"Then if was \nfound that the first heard the songs of the second and sent them out \nagain, greater than before. Then the second felt thir songs more \nstrongly in all their bones - but touched, perhaps by the first.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Sandwalker's incorporation\n//would be evidence that Abos and Shadow Children are of the same \noriginal,\n//telepathic species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe so, but the story tells us otherwise.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-16T20:08:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53EF892D.10309@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I should stop, but I just can't.\n\nThe story also tells us Victor falls to his death ... I actually believe\nwhat the story tells me there.\n\n You see how you have to admit that some scenes are fabrications or\nunreliable to proceed, and even you aren't immune from dismissing whole\nscenes that are clearly depicted in the text?\n\nYou are likely to say that is the ONLY scene because it serves a narrative\npurpose. I believe that the tree reaching for Victor, the mites that\ninfect people, the shadow children riding up from the mud in currents, the\ndamaged legs of the young firl and the paralyzed legs of Aunt Jeanine, the\nclimactic bite in A Story, and the symbolism of shadow children riding the\nshoulders of Marsh men all serve a narrative purpose too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 9:39 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\nWhat do you think of my theory that Mr. Million is an electronic\nsimulation? Because I thought up that in the same way. It's simply what\nWolfe tells us." } ] }, { "message_id": "<53EFE6A3.60703@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-16T23:17:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 16/08/2014 21:08, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI should stop, but I just can't.\nThe story also tells us Victor falls to his death ... I actually \nbelieve what the story tells me there.\n You see how you have to admit that some scenes are fabrications or \nunreliable to proceed, and even you aren't immune from dismissing \nwhole scenes that are clearly depicted in the text?\nYou are likely to say that is the ONLY scene because it serves a \nnarrative purpose. I believe that the tree reaching for Victor, the \nmites that infect people, the shadow children riding up from the mud \nin currents, the damaged legs of the young firl and the paralyzed legs \nof Aunt Jeanine, the climactic bite in A Story, and the symbolism of \nshadow children riding the shoulders of Marsh men all serve a \nnarrative purpose too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But we have clues right from the start. The handwriting in the journal \nchanges (the last line written by the real Marsch was \"I think I would \nshoot them both\"). The journal relates that Marsch was bitten by the \ncat. The officer compares the writing with Victor's school composition \nbook right *before* this point. A few enties later, Victor admits he \nhas been lying about the dates, in the very same entry that he claims \nthe boy is dead.\n\nItem: The green eyes of the Marsch who visits No. 5. Marsch earlier \nclaims in his journal that Victor has \"startling green eyes\" (and he \ndoesn't say \"greener than mine\"). We see green eyes later as an abo \nsignifier in \"A Story\" - the point is veritably hammered in.\n\nItem: \"I needed only to make my voice like his and look older.\"\n\nItem: When (in prison) he writes of his bad handwriting, he says \"my \nmother would take my trousers to the river, walking upstream for hours \nto get away from the sewers, leeaving me ashamed and afraid, with an old \nblanket or a torn piece of sail wrapped around me\". Who can be writing \nthis other than the boy Victor?\n\nThe thing is, these are all 'hard' clues that point towards a specific \ninterpretation. The clues you cite are heavily interpreted by you, and \nsome of the leaps you make seem to be of questionable foundation. \nConsider \"the damaged legs of the young girl\". Phaedria had a broken \nankle, which was expected to heal in the normal way. She played a \ncripple in the play the children put on, \"[because her] ankle would not \nbe mended in time four our performance\". Other girls - including \nMarydol - acted in the play, and presumably did not play cripples. \nSubsequently, Phaedria was agile enough to participate in a burglary.\n\nYou have to assume that Wolfe's characters are completely delusional \neven when conscious, and that the story is told, like that of Loyal To \nThe Group Of Seventeen, in terms of symbology with no causal attachment \nto the overt meaning of the text. The problem is, we can easily \ngenerate a storm of such symbolism from any text.\n\nI don't think such symbolism works if it contradicts the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-16T23:54:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53EFE6A3.60703@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, but Rue d'asticot, staff like and stork like legs on the girls on st\ncroix and a heron like walk to Abos, the name port mimizon (sounds like\nmimicry)\nWhich just happens to be organized after a hand with fingers and a\nthumb, the talk of a bite possibly switching eastwind and Sandwalker in a\nstory by stuff swimming in their veins and Marsch also being bitten on the\nlast possible friday/rogation day before Easter Sunday when the journal\nstarts up again don't seem like coincidence to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Saturday, August 16, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 16/08/2014 21:08, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I should stop, but I just can't.\nThe story also tells us Victor falls to his death ... I actually believe\nwhat the story tells me there.\n You see how you have to admit that some scenes are fabrications or\nunreliable to proceed, and even you aren't immune from dismissing whole\nscenes that are clearly depicted in the text?\nYou are likely to say that is the ONLY scene because it serves a\nnarrative purpose. I believe that the tree reaching for Victor, the mites\nthat infect people, the shadow children riding up from the mud in currents,\nthe damaged legs of the young firl and the paralyzed legs of Aunt Jeanine,\nthe climactic bite in A Story, and the symbolism of shadow children riding\nthe shoulders of Marsh men all serve a narrative purpose too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But we have clues right from the start. The handwriting in the journal\nchanges (the last line written by the real Marsch was \"I think I would\nshoot them both\"). The journal relates that Marsch was bitten by the cat.\nThe officer compares the writing with Victor's school composition book\nright *before* this point. A few enties later, Victor admits he has been\nlying about the dates, in the very same entry that he claims the boy is\ndead.\n\nItem: The green eyes of the Marsch who visits No. 5. Marsch earlier\nclaims in his journal that Victor has \"startling green eyes\" (and he\ndoesn't say \"greener than mine\"). We see green eyes later as an abo\nsignifier in \"A Story\" - the point is veritably hammered in.\n\nItem: \"I needed only to make my voice like his and look older.\"\n\nItem: When (in prison) he writes of his bad handwriting, he says \"my\nmother would take my trousers to the river, walking upstream for hours to\nget away from the sewers, leeaving me ashamed and afraid, with an old\nblanket or a torn piece of sail wrapped around me\". Who can be writing\nthis other than the boy Victor?\n\nThe thing is, these are all 'hard' clues that point towards a specific\ninterpretation. The clues you cite are heavily interpreted by you, and\nsome of the leaps you make seem to be of questionable foundation. Consider\n\"the damaged legs of the young girl\". Phaedria had a broken ankle, which\nwas expected to heal in the normal way. She played a cripple in the play\nthe children put on, \"[because her] ankle would not be mended in time four\nour performance\". Other girls - including Marydol - acted in the play, and\npresumably did not play cripples. Subsequently, Phaedria was agile enough\nto participate in a burglary.\n\nYou have to assume that Wolfe's characters are completely delusional even\nwhen conscious, and that the story is told, like that of Loyal To The Group\nOf Seventeen, in terms of symbology with no causal attachment to the overt\nmeaning of the text. The problem is, we can easily generate a storm of\nsuch symbolism from any text.\n\nI don't think such symbolism works if it contradicts the text.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F0BE06.8050901@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-17T14:36:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 17/08/2014 00:54, Marc Aramini wrote:\nOkay, but Rue d'asticot, staff like and stork like legs on the girls \non st croix and a heron like walk to Abos, the name port mimizon \n(sounds like mimicry)\nWhich just happens to be organized after a hand with fingers and a \nthumb, the talk of a bite possibly switching eastwind and Sandwalker \nin a story by stuff swimming in their veins and Marsch also being \nbitten on the last possible friday/rogation day before Easter Sunday \nwhen the journal starts up again don't seem like coincidence to me. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where do you get Easter Sunday from? If the cat bit him on a Friday, \naccording to the (fake) dates in the journal, not much happened on the \nSunday.\n\nIf you accept connections that loose, you will find millions in every \ndirection.\n\nWolfe is a somewhat psychologically realistic writer; his characters use \nmetaphor and figurative imagery, and do not always speak literally. In \nScience Fiction, this is arguably a dangerous game to play, because \nthere is not the same grounding in the real world to instantly identify \nfigures as such. The reader is forced to make some added effort to keep \nthe levels of explanation and causality in their appropriate places.\n\nThe clues I posted, they are 'hard' clues, as in a detective story. They \nhave a single implication and they cannot be mistaken for metaphor. I \nthink the opposite is the case for what you are taking as clues. And \nwhat is the status of the others, in your interpretation? Why does the \nofficer compare the handwriting of Marsch's journal just before the \nalleged cat bite with the school composition book, and nod to himself? \nThat bit has no figurative meaning, it's a straightforward pointer to \nthe fact that Victor started writing the journal at this point. Why do \nyou think Wolfe wrote this paragraph?\n\nI noted several other such instances (and I forgot the woman, likely \nVictor's mother, in the adjacent cell, though this is less definitive \nanyway).\n\nI don't see how one can ignore these and instead divine the truth of the \nstory from the shape of a continent or the walk of a woman!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-17T17:16:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53F0BE06.8050901@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I understand why you won't accept them, but it would be impossible for me\nto make those kind of connections to specific repetitive descriptions\n(staff/stork/heron-like/leg injuries or paralyzation/abo girl expressing\nchagrin over travelling far by foot) in an alien's leg and a human's leg\nin, say, Rama II or any other book by Wolfe. How many cities do you know\nthat are specifically identified by the parts of a hand and just happen to\nhave streets named after larva and cities named after mimicry? If you\nthink that's random, cool. I understand, but I certainly couldn't make\nthose kinds of extremely specific associations in any other work. Let's\njust agree to disagree" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 7:36 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\n\nIf you accept connections that loose, you will find millions in every\ndirection.\n\nWolfe is a somewhat psychologically realistic writer; his characters use\nmetaphor and figurative imagery, and do not always speak literally. In\nScience Fiction, this is arguably a dangerous game to play, because there\nis not the same grounding in the real world to instantly identify figures\nas such. The reader is forced to make some added effort to keep the levels\nof explanation and causality in their appropriate places.\n\nThe clues I posted, they are 'hard' clues, as in a detective story. They\nhave a single implication and they cannot be mistaken for metaphor. I\nthink the opposite is the case for what you are taking as clues. And what\nis the status of the others, in your interpretation? Why does the officer\ncompare the handwriting of Marsch's journal just before the alleged cat\nbite with the school composition book, and nod to himself? That bit has no\nfigurative meaning, it's a straightforward pointer to the fact that Victor\nstarted writing the journal at this point. Why do you think Wolfe wrote\nthis paragraph?\n\nI noted several other such instances (and I forgot the woman, likely\nVictor's mother, in the adjacent cell, though this is less definitive\nanyway).\n\nI don't see how one can ignore these and instead divine the truth of the\nstory from the shape of a continent or the walk of a woman!\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F1B1FF.7060305@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-18T07:57:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 17/08/2014 18:16, Marc Aramini wrote:\n I understand why you won't accept them, but it would be impossible \nfor me to make those kind of connections to specific repetitive \ndescriptions (staff/stork/heron-like/leg injuries or paralyzation/abo \ngirl expressing chagrin over travelling far by foot) in an alien's leg \nand a human's leg in, say, Rama II or any other book by Wolfe. How \nmany cities do you know that are specifically identified by the parts \nof a hand and just happen to have streets named after larva and cities \nnamed after mimicry? If you think that's random, cool. I understand, \nbut I certainly couldn't make those kinds of extremely specific \nassociations in any other work. Let's just agree to disagree" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But are these associations really specific when you examine them? Seven \nGirls Waiting is reluctant to travel a long distance, but she has \nrecently given birth and has been starving. She goes anyway, and later \nfollows Sandwalker down the river. Her legs are fine. Phaedria \nexplicitly has a broken ankle, and there are other girls whose \nplay-acting is not restricted to playing cripples. Aunt Jeannine has \nsome unspecified disabiiity, for which she uses a high-tech solution \nwhich shocked No. 5 (so it cannot be commonplace). There's nothing to \nsuggest most women don't walk normally. And Victor's mother, an abo, \nwalked miles upstream to wash his clothes. You notice women with some \ntemporary or permanent issue and ignore all those who walk normally. \nAnd how much sense does the \"womens legs\" association make anyway?\n\nPort-Mimizon has some letters in common with 'mimicry' - that doesn't \nmean it's named after it. And where does mimicry come in anyway, if you \nare replacing mimicry with some kind of infection?\n\nParts of the geography of Sainte Croix are named after a hand (there are \nheadlands referencing thumb and fingers). But think about this: what \ndoes a hand signify but humans? - if it symbolises anything, it is the \nopposite of the symbolism you are loading onto it! Veil told us the \ntruth about Veil's Hypothesis. It is only an excuse - there is no \nreason to hypothesise a takeover by alien monsters, because humans are \nmonstrous enough. If the hand shaped continent on Sainte Croix has any \nsymbolism, this is the level it exists at. It's not telling us a secret \nclue about maggots or some other SF element. The SF story exists on its \nown level, with its own level of clues, and the symbolism of The Hand \nexists at a different level.\n\nI ask again, why does the officer nod when he compares the handwriting? \nCan you think of any conceivable reason Wolfe wrote that other than to \nmake it clear to the reader that Victor started writing the journal at \nthis point?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-18T13:45:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53F1B1FF.7060305@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry only the one guy was a shadow child infection. Everybody else is an\nabo mimic in port mimizon. Marsch and number five are the odd man out.\n That's why it's port mimizon, just mimicking humanity. Two different life\ncycles. Do you not understand what I have been saying? Your question\nabout the name of port mimizon being irrelevant is mind blowing. Everyone\nthere is an abo. Except Marsch and number five. I want to stop but then\nyou ask a question like that indicating you have no idea what my position\nis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, August 18, 2014, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 17/08/2014 18:16, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I understand why you won't accept them, but it would be impossible for\nme to make those kind of connections to specific repetitive descriptions\n(staff/stork/heron-like/leg injuries or paralyzation/abo girl expressing\nchagrin over travelling far by foot) in an alien's leg and a human's leg\nin, say, Rama II or any other book by Wolfe. How many cities do you know\nthat are specifically identified by the parts of a hand and just happen to\nhave streets named after larva and cities named after mimicry? If you\nthink that's random, cool. I understand, but I certainly couldn't make\nthose kinds of extremely specific associations in any other work. Let's\njust agree to disagree" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But are these associations really specific when you examine them? Seven\nGirls Waiting is reluctant to travel a long distance, but she has recently\ngiven birth and has been starving. She goes anyway, and later follows\nSandwalker down the river. Her legs are fine. Phaedria explicitly has a\nbroken ankle, and there are other girls whose play-acting is not restricted\nto playing cripples. Aunt Jeannine has some unspecified disabiiity, for\nwhich she uses a high-tech solution which shocked No. 5 (so it cannot be\ncommonplace). There's nothing to suggest most women don't walk normally.\nAnd Victor's mother, an abo, walked miles upstream to wash his clothes.\nYou notice women with some temporary or permanent issue and ignore all\nthose who walk normally. And how much sense does the \"womens legs\"\nassociation make anyway?\n\nPort-Mimizon has some letters in common with 'mimicry' - that doesn't mean\nit's named after it. And where does mimicry come in anyway, if you are\nreplacing mimicry with some kind of infection?\n\nParts of the geography of Sainte Croix are named after a hand (there are\nheadlands referencing thumb and fingers). But think about this: what does\na hand signify but humans? - if it symbolises anything, it is the opposite\nof the symbolism you are loading onto it! Veil told us the truth about\nVeil's Hypothesis. It is only an excuse - there is no reason to\nhypothesise a takeover by alien monsters, because humans are monstrous\nenough. If the hand shaped continent on Sainte Croix has any symbolism,\nthis is the level it exists at. It's not telling us a secret clue about\nmaggots or some other SF element. The SF story exists on its own level,\nwith its own level of clues, and the symbolism of The Hand exists at a\ndifferent level.\n\nI ask again, why does the officer nod when he compares the handwriting?\nCan you think of any conceivable reason Wolfe wrote that other than to make\nit clear to the reader that Victor started writing the journal at this\npoint?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-18T13:50:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, someone took Marsch's place, that's why the officer nodded at the\nhandwriting, it just wasn't who is commonly perceived to have taken\nMarsch's place. Marsch is not the same man, he is dead, taken over by the\ncollective shadow child infection, who are many but fade into one lonely" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, August 18, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nGerry only the one guy was a shadow child infection. Everybody else is an\nabo mimic in port mimizon. Marsch and number five are the odd man out.\n That's why it's port mimizon, just mimicking humanity. Two different life\ncycles. Do you not understand what I have been saying? Your question\nabout the name of port mimizon being irrelevant is mind blowing. Everyone\nthere is an abo. Except Marsch and number five. I want to stop but then\nyou ask a question like that indicating you have no idea what my position\nis.\n\nOn Monday, August 18, 2014, Gerry Quinn > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 17/08/2014 18:16, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " I understand why you won't accept them, but it would be impossible for\nme to make those kind of connections to specific repetitive descriptions\n(staff/stork/heron-like/leg injuries or paralyzation/abo girl expressing\nchagrin over travelling far by foot) in an alien's leg and a human's leg\nin, say, Rama II or any other book by Wolfe. How many cities do you know\nthat are specifically identified by the parts of a hand and just happen to\nhave streets named after larva and cities named after mimicry? If you\nthink that's random, cool. I understand, but I certainly couldn't make\nthose kinds of extremely specific associations in any other work. Let's\njust agree to disagree" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But are these associations really specific when you examine them? Seven\nGirls Waiting is reluctant to travel a long distance, but she has recently\ngiven birth and has been starving. She goes anyway, and later follows\nSandwalker down the river. Her legs are fine. Phaedria explicitly has a\nbroken ankle, and there are other girls whose play-acting is not restricted\nto playing cripples. Aunt Jeannine has some unspecified disabiiity, for\nwhich she uses a high-tech solution which shocked No. 5 (so it cannot be\ncommonplace). There's nothing to suggest most women don't walk normally.\nAnd Victor's mother, an abo, walked miles upstream to wash his clothes.\nYou notice women with some temporary or permanent issue and ignore all\nthose who walk normally. And how much sense does the \"womens legs\"\nassociation make anyway?\n\nPort-Mimizon has some letters in common with 'mimicry' - that doesn't\nmean it's named after it. And where does mimicry come in anyway, if you\nare replacing mimicry with some kind of infection?\n\nParts of the geography of Sainte Croix are named after a hand (there are\nheadlands referencing thumb and fingers). But think about this: what does\na hand signify but humans? - if it symbolises anything, it is the opposite\nof the symbolism you are loading onto it! Veil told us the truth about\nVeil's Hypothesis. It is only an excuse - there is no reason to\nhypothesise a takeover by alien monsters, because humans are monstrous\nenough. If the hand shaped continent on Sainte Croix has any symbolism,\nthis is the level it exists at. It's not telling us a secret clue about\nmaggots or some other SF element. The SF story exists on its own level,\nwith its own level of clues, and the symbolism of The Hand exists at a\ndifferent level.\n\nI ask again, why does the officer nod when he compares the handwriting?\nCan you think of any conceivable reason Wolfe wrote that other than to make\nit clear to the reader that Victor started writing the journal at this\npoint?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F20BAC.7000602@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-18T14:20:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 18/08/2014 14:50, Marc Aramini wrote:\nGerry, someone took Marsch's place, that's why the officer nodded at \nthe handwriting, it just wasn't who is commonly perceived to have \ntaken Marsch's place. Marsch is not the same man, he is dead, taken \nover by the collective shadow child infection, who are many but fade \ninto one lonely" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He didn't just nod at the handwriting in the journal, though. He went \nlooking for Victor's school composition book and inspected the first few \npages. *Then* he nodded.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T13:31:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53F20BAC.7000602@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: What do you think of my theory that Mr. Million is an electronic \nsimulation? Because I thought up that in the same way. It's simply what \nWolfe tells us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A nice theory! I like it! Interesting that you use the word \"simply\". Had you \n\nconsidered that there might be more to the story? For example that Mr. Million \n\nmight also be the origin of the cloned chain which includes #5 and Maitre?\n\n\nWere you familiar with the theory that the family name is actually \"Gene Wolfe\"?\n\nWhat might that symbolize?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Recall the speech of the Old Wise One when he speaks of the two peoples \n- the ones who \"used their hands, when they had hands, only to take \nfood\", and the others who \"crossed from star to star\". \"Then if was \nfound that the first heard the songs of the second and sent them out \nagain, greater than before." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think this refers to telepathic Shadow Children (who sometimes have hands) \n\nand human astronauts whose thoughts are picked up as they travel through space." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe so, but the story tells us otherwise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But, as previously noted, there is no \"the\" one story. There are multiple stories\n\nwhich must be pieced together. I don't think the interweaving is meant to be \"simple\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to assume that Wolfe's characters are completely delusional \neven when conscious, and that the story is told, like that of Loyal To \nThe Group Of Seventeen, in terms of symbology with no causal attachment \nto the overt meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Excellent analogy! If we change \"No causal attachment\" to \"indirect causal attachment\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think such symbolism works if it contradicts the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Who wrote the story told by \"Loyal To The Group Of 17\"? Gene Wolfe right? Perhaps he is\n\nrevealing his larger literary style in such smaller synecdoche.\n\n\nIs \"Number Five\" in any way an unreliable narrator? What is Gene Wolfe saying about\n\nhimself in giving \"Number Five\" the name of Gene Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is, we can easily generate a storm of such symbolism from any text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you accept connections that loose, you will find millions in every direction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are grave literary accusations to make against another human being. I can't speak \n\nfor Marc but I can personally assure you that I don't find hidden messages about aliens\n\nin the instructions on how to assemble a shelving set. Nor do I find secret clues about\n\nmythological gods in the ingredient list on my cereal box.\n\n\nOn the other hand, I do find hidden references to 1950's McCarthyism in the play The Crucible \n\nwhich is about Salem Witch Hunts even though the name \"McCarthy\" is never mentioned in the text.\n\nI look at Picasso's Guernica and see cartoon cows and horses and people, yet I think it refers\n\nto the 1937 bombing of a Basque town.\n\n\nLikewise I find reference to Adolph Hitler in the Chaplin film The Great Dictator. In Gulliver's\n\nTravel's I find secret references to 18th Century British society, even though Whigs,\n\nTories, Protestants, Catholics and France are not mentioned once in the text.\n\n\nAm I really to ignore all possible deeper interpretations of artwork because the reference are\n\nnot found in the main body of the medium? Am I really to accept the words of someone on the\n\ninternet who tells me that if they don't see something in a work of art then it doesn't exist?\n\n\nI could. But I think I would be missing a lot. \"Art Must Be Taken Only At Face Value\" is not a \n\nclub I care to join. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F36176.5030601@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T14:38:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 19/08/2014 14:31, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: What do you think of my theory that Mr. Million is an electronic\nsimulation? Because I thought up that in the same way. It's simply what\nWolfe tells us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A nice theory! I like it! Interesting that you use the word \"simply\". Had you\nconsidered that there might be more to the story? For example that Mr. Million\nmight also be the origin of the cloned chain which includes #5 and Maitre?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's highly plausible, since presumably the scanning was done on \nearth, where cloning of this kind is illegal. I don't think it's \nexplicitly stated, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Were you familiar with the theory that the family name is actually \"Gene Wolfe\"?\nWhat might that symbolize?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing much - a kind of joke that Wolfe may have inserted elsewhere." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Recall the speech of the Old Wise One when he speaks of the two peoples\n- the ones who \"used their hands, when they had hands, only to take\nfood\", and the others who \"crossed from star to star\". \"Then if was\nfound that the first heard the songs of the second and sent them out\nagain, greater than before." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I think this refers to telepathic Shadow Children (who sometimes have hands)\nand human astronauts whose thoughts are picked up as they travel through space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is incompatible with what the Old Wise One says, and with much \nelse. I don't think I need to rehearse why yet again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Maybe so, but the story tells us otherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, as previously noted, there is no \"the\" one story. There are multiple stories\nwhich must be pieced together. I don't think the interweaving is meant to be \"simple\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are stories you have invented, but they don't appear in the text. \nYou can argue that the Old Wise One is confused at one point as to which \nof the two peoples in the story is which, but it can be explained in a \nstraightforward way. Or you can argue that he is lying or otherwise \nincorrect, or that neo-Marsch is a better SF writer than he is an \nanthropologist. But it is simply not the case that a variety of origin \nstories are presented in the text for the reader to choose between. The \ntext tells exactly one story, involving a landing by humans, who were \nimitated by the aborigines, and who devolved into the Shadow Children. \nRight or wrong, that's what we are told." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have to assume that Wolfe's characters are completely delusional\neven when conscious, and that the story is told, like that of Loyal To\nThe Group Of Seventeen, in terms of symbology with no causal attachment\nto the overt meaning of the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Excellent analogy! If we change \"No causal attachment\" to \"indirect causal attachment\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What would be the point of the story told in the text, if it has neither \nliteral nor symbolic significance? I do not believe Wolfe writes \nstories as exercises in steganography." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think such symbolism works if it contradicts the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who wrote the story told by \"Loyal To The Group Of 17\"? Gene Wolfe right? Perhaps he is revealing his larger literary style in such smaller synecdoche." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say it points out that newspeak is ineffective for its intended \npurpose. (Such an observation might suggest that Wolfe leans toward \nconservatism.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is \"Number Five\" in any way an unreliable narrator? What is Gene Wolfe saying about\nhimself in giving \"Number Five\" the name of Gene Wolfe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nothing, I believe. It is a little game he plays." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The problem is, we can easily generate a storm of such symbolism from any text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you accept connections that loose, you will find millions in every direction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These are grave literary accusations to make against another human being. I can't speak for Marc but I can personally assure you that I don't find hidden messages about aliens in the instructions on how to assemble a shelving set. Nor do I find secret clues about mythological gods in the ingredient list on my cereal box." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is precisely why aliens hide their secret messages in such things - \nnobody suspects them!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, I do find hidden references to 1950's McCarthyism in the play The Crucible which is about Salem Witch Hunts even though the name \"McCarthy\" is never mentioned in the text.\n\nI look at Picasso's Guernica and see cartoon cows and horses and people, yet I think it refers to the 1937 bombing of a Basque town.\n\nLikewise I find reference to Adolph Hitler in the Chaplin film The Great Dictator. In Gulliver's Travel's I find secret references to 18th Century British society, even though Whigs, Tories, Protestants, Catholics and France are not mentioned once in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And none of them correspond to what I am saying. I was referring to \n'connections' supposed to indicate secrets of the story qua story. You \ndo not assume that the witches have a secret book that is actually Das \nKapital, that Picasso painted Guernico in blood scraped from the walls, \nthat the sentences of Lilliputians can be decoded to indicate that they \nare involved in an internal squabble of some tenet of Anglicanism that \nthey hope to co-opt Gulliver to solve. You separate the levels of \nsignificance.\n\nIn the same way we can see many echoes of colonialism in _5HOC_, but \nthey do not impinge on the question of whether the alien species is \ncapable of shapeshifting.\n\nAnyway, a better analogy to the sort of thing I was talking about would \nbe if someone developed an overly elaborate theory of Guernica based on \nreferences to electrical items included in or suggested by the painting, \nand ultimately came up with a theory that the painting secretly refers \nto Nikolai Tesla." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Am I really to ignore all possible deeper interpretations of artwork because the reference are not found in the main body of the medium? Am I really to accept the words of someone on the internet who tells me that if they don't see something in a work of art then it doesn't exist?\n\nI could. But I think I would be missing a lot. \"Art Must Be Taken Only At Face Value\" is not a club I care to join. \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Art means whatever you want it to mean\", conversely, is a proposition \nsuited only to a club of one.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T16:56:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "<53F36176.5030601@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We could go back and forth, the three of us, for a million years. We\nshould just accept we get different things out of the text, and will never\nconvince the other. However, the real irony is that I think the majority\nof Wolfe's fiction actually works to prove that the implied and unstated is\nactually real and authoritative, that its meaning is iron hidden behind a\nsoft shadowy maze.\n\nThus, I stray to totalitarian interpretations that are I do not conceive as\nsubjective (especially in matters of plot or theme, for example, in saying\nstories like \"trip trap\" show that subjectivity can be overcome by\naccessing a spiritual objectivity and communion with others - the whole\nstory deconstructs its subjectivity by showing what is real is not that\nreality but something higher which only perceived by people in common). In\nthat way I think wolfe uses postmodern techniques of uncertainty to\nobliterate the very concept of postmodern relativism.\n\nGerry and I are the totalitarians wolfe warned against in his introduction\nto endangered species. The difference is that I believe the one\ntrue solution is unstated and cryptically encoded but thematically and\nsymbolically real as a discernible authorial intention. In answer to why\nthe officer nods at the handwriting, I give an answer Gerry would never\naccept - wolfe wants the first, false solution to be one that seems\nreasonable, so that people might accept it as the officer does, without\npenetrating to the level behind it. The officer does not fully understand\nwhat has happened and comes to the first reasonable conclusion (but he\nstill knows enough to shower away the girl's Saliva prophylactically - what\nan odd way to describe it if it doesn't involve a life cycle). Why?\nBecause it is in his nature to do so.\n\nIn that way, Wolfe's fiction is the maze in The Adopted Father and in A\nSolar Labyrinth, with a fake exit that still \"works\".\n\nI think there are many many wrong interpretations (like dialing in a solar\nlabyrinth meaning anything but the math behind the construction of sundials\nand their shadows, like cues being about the bathroom, like sev's relatives\nhaving golden hair, like dr margotte showing up at the end of the doctor of\ndeath island being hopeful, like the navigator being Kennedy ... All not\ntruly valid meanings or interpretations, some of them blatant misreadings)\nbut Wolfe is not a surface level writer and does not believe in genre\ndistinctions (his famous example being a comment about Free Live Free,\nwhere he is criticized for having a witch, a private detective, and time\ntravel, and he says that hey, witches exist. This eclectic nature makes\nassignation of impossibilities in his text due to perceived genre\nlimitations extremely spurious and artificial.)\n\nMuch like the abortion debate, our starting premises are intrinsically\ndifferent (it's alive and separate ... No, it is still ME, why can't you\nsee that?) and no happy interpretive alliance can be reached, so we spin\nour wheels ad nauseum." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Art means whatever you want it to mean\", conversely, is a proposition\nsuited only to a club of one.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T17:03:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think a part of this message was lost in draft form, sorry.\n\nMore charitably, perhaps wolfe wants to allow some freedom of\ninterpretation, so we can walk away at a certain point - he wants us to\nknow Marsch is replaced, and if we are satisfied with the obvious\nreplacement as victor Trenchard, we need go no further, perhaps vaguely\nbothered by the meaning of A Story and the strange almost dysfunctional\ncommunity extent on ste. Croix. But Wolfe knows if that is the real\nsolution or not, as Joyce knew if the mysterious man in the mcintosh had a\nname and identity elsewhere in Ulysses, relevant or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 19, 2014, Marc Aramini > wrote:\nWe could go back and forth, the three of us, for a million years. We\nshould just accept we get different things out of the text, and will never\nconvince the other. However, the real irony is that I think the majority\nof Wolfe's fiction actually works to prove that the implied and unstated is\nactually real and authoritative, that its meaning is iron hidden behind a\nsoft shadowy maze.\n\nThus, I stray to totalitarian interpretations that are I do not conceive\nas subjective (especially in matters of plot or theme, for example, in\nsaying stories like \"trip trap\" show that subjectivity can be overcome by\naccessing a spiritual objectivity and communion with others - the whole\nstory deconstructs its subjectivity by showing what is real is not that\nreality but something higher which only perceived by people in common). In\nthat way I think wolfe uses postmodern techniques of uncertainty to\nobliterate the very concept of postmodern relativism.\n\nGerry and I are the totalitarians wolfe warned against in his introduction\nto endangered species. The difference is that I believe the one\ntrue solution is unstated and cryptically encoded but thematically and\nsymbolically real as a discernible authorial intention. In answer to why\nthe officer nods at the handwriting, I give an answer Gerry would never\naccept - wolfe wants the first, false solution to be one that seems\nreasonable, so that people might accept it as the officer does, without\npenetrating to the level behind it. The officer does not fully understand\nwhat has happened and comes to the first reasonable conclusion (but he\nstill knows enough to shower away the girl's Saliva prophylactically - what\nan odd way to describe it if it doesn't involve a life cycle). Why?\nBecause it is in his nature to do so.\n\nIn that way, Wolfe's fiction is the maze in The Adopted Father and in A\nSolar Labyrinth, with a fake exit that still \"works\".\n\nI think there are many many wrong interpretations (like dialing in a solar\nlabyrinth meaning anything but the math behind the construction of sundials\nand their shadows, like cues being about the bathroom, like sev's relatives\nhaving golden hair, like dr margotte showing up at the end of the doctor of\ndeath island being hopeful, like the navigator being Kennedy ... All not\ntruly valid meanings or interpretations, some of them blatant misreadings)\nbut Wolfe is not a surface level writer and does not believe in genre\ndistinctions (his famous example being a comment about Free Live Free,\nwhere he is criticized for having a witch, a private detective, and time\ntravel, and he says that hey, witches exist. This eclectic nature makes\nassignation of impossibilities in his text due to perceived genre\nlimitations extremely spurious and artificial.)\n\nMuch like the abortion debate, our starting premises are intrinsically\ndifferent (it's alive and separate ... No, it is still ME, why can't you\nsee that?) and no happy interpretive alliance can be reached, so we spin\nour wheels ad nauseum." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Art means whatever you want it to mean\", conversely, is a proposition\nsuited only to a club of one.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-20T12:16:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Overthinking/Underthinking \"The Fifth Head of Cerberus\"", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: We could go back and forth, the three of us, for a million years. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We should just accept we get different things out of the text, and will never\nconvince the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, the real irony is that I think the majority\nof Wolfe's fiction actually works to prove that the implied and unstated is\nactually real and authoritative, that its meaning is iron hidden behind a\nsoft shadowy maze." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, agreed, completely. I find this to be a very plausible interpretation\n\ngiven that Mr. Wolfe may often have found himself the lone devout believer in \n\nworlds (engineering and SF) mostly populated by non-believers. He felt compelled \n\nto write at multiple, veiled levels, each to be understood by different \"levels\"\n\nof his readership.\n\n\nWhat is the \"proof\" of God? Wolfe's message is that all the evidence for God is\n\n\"implied and unstated\", yet still, at a certain level, more real and more \n\nauthoritative than scientific evidence for the material world. Marc, you probably\n\nalready know this, but I urge you to be understanding and even sympathetic to the\n\nfact that there are some things that atheists are going to have a very, very \n\ndifficult time understanding.\n\n\n\nGerry Quinn:> \"Art means whatever you want it to mean\", conversely, is a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "proposition suited only to a club of one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not always. Sometimes people's individual interpretations of art can be in \n\ncongruence. In fact, I think most of the time, most people's interpretation\n\nof a work of art are mostly in congruence. It's the differences that make \n\nthings interesting. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }