{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6630", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6630, "subject": "Baldanders' dream", "messages": 12, "voices": 4, "first": "2014-08-19T13:14:10+00:00", "last": "2014-08-24T15:45:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T13:14:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We all know how sev's dream of the little boy with a sword fighting the\nwooden man with a cudgel parallels what happens in the story, including\nflooding and the breaking of terminus est in a fight with Baldanders, but\nBaldanders has a dream, too - of caverns below with stone teeth dripping\nblood - of arms dismembered found on sanded paths and shaking chains in the\ndark, and attributes this to Severian being next to him.\n\nSounds like what sleeps in the mines at saltus waking up. Perhaps Severian\nbrings this thing to life, too." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T13:22:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Conversely, it could be an outsider's vision of the oubliette under the\nMatachin Tower, as well, though there seems to be mud rather than sand\nthere." } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F3509B.7060500@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-19T13:26:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/08/2014 14:14, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWe all know how sev's dream of the little boy with a sword fighting \nthe wooden man with a cudgel parallels what happens in the story, \nincluding flooding and the breaking of terminus est in a fight with \nBaldanders, but Baldanders has a dream, too - of caverns below with \nstone teeth dripping blood - of arms dismembered found on sanded paths \nand shaking chains in the dark, and attributes this to Severian being \nnext to him.\n\nSounds like what sleeps in the mines at saltus waking up. Perhaps \nSeverian brings this thing to life, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd interpret it as references to torture and state executions.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-20T12:47:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "<53F3509B.7060500@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: but Baldanders has a dream, too - of caverns below " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "with stone teeth dripping blood - of arms dismembered found on " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "sanded paths and shaking chains in the dark, and attributes this " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to Severian being next to him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sounds like what sleeps in the mines at saltus waking up. Perhaps " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian brings this thing to life, too" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On first reading, the dream influence of Severian's past as a\n\ntorturer would seem to be the likely inspiration for Baldanders'\n\ndream.\n\n\nBut given the futuristic nature of Severian's dream, Severian's \n\nfuture in the Saltus mine seems a more likely source. \"Stone\n\nteeth\" seem very allusive to stalagmites and stalactites. The \n\n\"chains\" may symbolize the servitude of the man-apes and of course\n\nSeverian does quite a bit of arm dismemberment in his time there.\n\n\nI think the gigantic presence beneath the mine has not been given \n\nits due attention. Most thoughts regarding the alien megatherian\n\npresence on Urth rightfully involve the water, given the focus on\n\nthe giant eel-like Abaia and his aquatic undine daughter-brides,\n\ncorroborated with \"Great Scylla\" in RttW.\n\n\nBut there is much cave imagery present in Urth's mythology also.\n\nThere is the Ouroboros story in which people are ingested, mistaking\n\nits mouth for a cave. There is the mention of Jurupari, a monster \n\nwith a cave-like mouth for its victims. Fomalhaut, the \"mouth of\n\nthe fish\" is mentioned (by the Cumaean). Then there is the cave of \n\nthe Cumaean, herself.\n\n\nThis cave hearkens to the cave dwelling of the Roman Cumaean Sibyl\n\nwhile the snake-like nature of The Cumaean ties her to the Pythian\n\nOracle at Delphi. Snakes and cave-dwelling also hearken back to the\n\n\"Mother of All Monsters\", Typhon's wife, Echidna.\n\n\nThough \"Echidna\" is not mentioned by name in BotNS, it would seem\n\nWolfe thought \"snake\" and \"cave dwelling\" would be enough clues to\n\ntie the character of The Cumaean to the wife of Typhon. Since few\n\ngot the reference, Wolfe made sure the name Echidna was front and \n\ncenter in Long Sun. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F50E2F.1000605@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-20T21:07:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 20/08/2014 13:47, Lee wrote:\nThough \"Echidna\" is not mentioned by name in BotNS, it would seem \nWolfe thought \"snake\" and \"cave dwelling\" would be enough clues to tie \nthe character of The Cumaean to the wife of Typhon. Since few got the \nreference, Wolfe made sure the name Echidna was front and center in \nLong Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two \ncharacters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make - as you point out \nyourself, a mash-up of two Appolonian shrines is enough. Besides, she's \nnot necessarily a snake:\n\n\"As I had suspected, the Cumaean was not a woman at all; yet neither was \nshe one of the horrors I had beheld in the gardens of the House \nAbsolute. Something sleekly reptilian coiled about the glowing rod. I \nlooked for the head but found none, though each of the patternings on \nthe reptile's back was a face, and the eyes of each face seemed lost in \nrapture.\"\n\nShe shares no obvious personality characteristics with Echidna.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-21T16:20:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "<53F50E2F.1000605@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two \ncharacters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find them to be sufficiently linked. It is to be remembered that the Cumaean\n\nis the leader of the Witches in BotNS. There is a constellation of traits\n\nincluding snakes, witchcraft and caves which link such Greco-Roman female \n\nmythological characters as Echidna, Lamia, Hecate, the Pythian Oracle and the \n\nCumaean Sibyl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Besides, she's not necessarily a snake:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Snake-like\" or \"snake-associated\" would be more accurate descriptors. Mythological\n\n Echidna was not a \"snake\" but she had snakey attributes.\n\n\nAnyway, anything \"coiled\", \"reptilian\" and without a distinct head is clearly going\n\nto be more \"snake-like\" than, say, \"turtle-like\", \"elephant-like\" or -like any other\n\nnon-snake creature. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She shares no obvious personality characteristics with Echidna." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what \"personality characteristics\" you might be referring to. But, \n\nEchidna, in Long Sun, clearly has snakey attributes and was quite notably involved\n\nin an incident of human sacrifice.\n\n\nThe Cumaean also has snakey attributes and is associated with human sacrifice.\n\n(Hopefully the connection between human sacrifice and Apu Punchau doesn't need\n\nto be explained; The Cumaean's \"s?ance\" is not quite what it seems).\n\n\nTyphon and Scylla from Long Sun are mentioned in BotNS (and Short Sun). Echidna\n\nis not mentioned in BotNS by name, but given the combination of cave-dwelling, snake\n\nassociation, witchcraft and human sacrifice, I think Wolfe has given us enough\n\nclues to find her in BotNS. Just my opinion, of course. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F6A92E.6040507@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T02:21:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/21/2014 11:20 AM, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two\ncharacters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find them to be sufficiently linked. It is to be remembered that the Cumaean\n\nis the leader of the Witches in BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is she? She's considered a witch, and Merryn is at her disposal in the \nStone Town, but that's not the same." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F72288.7050603@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T10:59:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 21/08/2014 17:20, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two\ncharacters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find them to be sufficiently linked. It is to be remembered that the Cumaean\nis the leader of the Witches in BotNS. There is a constellation of traits\nincluding snakes, witchcraft and caves which link such Greco-Roman female\nmythological characters as Echidna, Lamia, Hecate, the Pythian Oracle and the\nCumaean Sibyl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note the plural in \"characters\". It seems to bear out what I said; \nsnakes and caves do not uniquely identify a character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Besides, she's not necessarily a snake:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Snake-like\" or \"snake-associated\" would be more accurate descriptors. Mythological\n Echidna was not a \"snake\" but she had snakey attributes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She shares no obvious personality characteristics with Echidna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what \"personality characteristics\" you might be referring to. But,\nEchidna, in Long Sun, clearly has snakey attributes and was quite notably involved\nin an incident of human sacrifice.\n\nThe Cumaean also has snakey attributes and is associated with human sacrifice.\n(Hopefully the connection between human sacrifice and Apu Punchau doesn't need\nto be explained; The Cumaean's \"s?ance\" is not quite what it seems)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Frankly, it does have to be explained - it is certainly not a direct \nlink. In any case, human sacrifice was not unique to a single god in \nLong Sun.\n\nAs for personality characteristics, I mean things like the Cumaean's \ninterest in witchcraft and archeology, and Echidna's rather prudish \ninterest in the virginity of the priesthood, and her killing of Pas to \npreserve her rule over the Whorl. They don't seem at all like the same \nperson." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon and Scylla from Long Sun are mentioned in BotNS (and Short Sun). Echidna\nis not mentioned in BotNS by name, but given the combination of cave-dwelling, snake\nassociation, witchcraft and human sacrifice, I think Wolfe has given us enough\nclues to find her in BotNS. Just my opinion, of course. \t\t \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would take a lot more in the way of 'clues' to convince me that two \nseemingly unrelated characters, who never appear in the same series of \nbooks, are one and the same.\n\nAnd as so often, I find myself asking: Why? What purpose of Wolfe's \nwould it serve to make them the same anyway? Even if you identify them, \nwhere's the moment you say \"ah, that's why the Cumaean did X, in order \nto fulfil Project Y of Echidna's?\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T14:55:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "<53F72288.7050603@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the Cumaean>> is the leader of the Witches in BotNS.\n\n\nJeffrey Wilson: Is she? She's considered a witch, and Merryn is \n\nat her disposal in the Stone Town, but that's not the same.\n\n\nIIRC, the only other time we see witches is in Severian's boyhood \n\nmemory of going to the Witches' Tower. There he finds The Cumaean\n\nand Merryn only. Perhaps there are only two witches? Given the\n\ninformation we are provided, including Merryn's deference, I feel\n\njustified in calling The Cumaean the leader of the witches. I guess\n\nit involves a leap of assumption but it seems a small one to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Note the plural in \"characters\". It seems to bear out " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "what I said; snakes and caves do not uniquely identify a character." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a human bias to assume that \"identity\" is uniquely identifiable.\n\nBut, as characters like Tzadkiel illustrate, other sorts of beings may\n\nnot be locked into a single body, shape or identity.\n\n\nLooking to mythology and the Bible and other sources from which Wolfe\n\ndraws inspiration, we can see that Greco-Roman gods, Judeo-Christian\n\nangels and other non-human beings can assume a plural identity, able\n\nto change their size, shape, species and even to appear in multiple \n\nplaces at once.\n\n\nThe Cumaean is not a human being. Given Wolfe's mythological/Biblical\n\ninspiration, I think she follows the Tzadkielian plural identify pattern \n\nand she shares an identity with other snakey, cavey Sun Series characters \n\nsuch as Echidna and perhaps certain extremely large, false god-like \n\ncreatures on Urth (and Blue).\n\n\nTzadkiel is an angel who resides in \"heaven\". But some angels have fallen\n\nto Earth and Urth (making them \"demons\")." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for personality characteristics, I mean things like the Cumaean's \ninterest in witchcraft and archeology, and Echidna's rather prudish \ninterest in the virginity of the priesthood, and her killing of Pas to \npreserve her rule over the Whorl. They don't seem at all like the same \nperson." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see why witchcraft and archaeology exclude prudery and power-\n\nhunger in a personality.\n\n\nI see wolfe asking his readers to answer certain progressively more difficult\n\nquestions. Who was \"Pas\" on Urth? Easy answer- Typhon. Who was Scylla on Urth?\n\nA little tougher- Great Scylla? Cilinia? both? Who was Echidna? The snakey\n\nCumaean perhaps? Who were Molpe and Thelxiepeia on Urth? Given the mermaid/\n\nsiren connection, perhaps they were Undines? Who was Phaea on Urth? No evidence\n\nfor any character I am aware of. (Hethor's slug maybe?)\n\n\nBut if someone DOES have some ideas on other Urth characters who translate to \n\nWhorl gods I'd be interested!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would take a lot more in the way of 'clues' to convince me that two \nseemingly unrelated characters, who never appear in the same series of \nbooks, are one and the same." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, of course. You should not have the false impression that I am trying to \n\n\"convince\" you of anything. I certainly hope you are not trying to \"convince\" \n\nme of anything. We each have our own views about Gene Wolfe's work and this is \n\nthe place we can all share them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F8A870.8060909@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-23T14:42:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 22/08/2014 15:55, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Note the plural in \"characters\". It seems to bear out" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "what I said; snakes and caves do not uniquely identify a character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a human bias to assume that \"identity\" is uniquely identifiable.\nBut, as characters like Tzadkiel illustrate, other sorts of beings may\nnot be locked into a single body, shape or identity.\n\nLooking to mythology and the Bible and other sources from which Wolfe\ndraws inspiration, we can see that Greco-Roman gods, Judeo-Christian\nangels and other non-human beings can assume a plural identity, able\nto change their size, shape, species and even to appear in multiple\nplaces at once.\n\nThe Cumaean is not a human being. Given Wolfe's mythological/Biblical\ninspiration, I think she follows the Tzadkielian plural identify pattern\nand she shares an identity with other snakey, cavey Sun Series characters\nsuch as Echidna and perhaps certain extremely large, false god-like\ncreatures on Urth (and Blue).\n\nTzadkiel is an angel who resides in \"heaven\". But some angels have fallen\nto Earth and Urth (making them \"demons\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In mythology, snakes and caves also did not uniquely identify a \ncharacter. And the Cumaean is not indicated to share the characteristic \nof multiplicity with Tzadkiel (who, by the way, appears only in a book \nin which neither the Cumaean nor Echidna do). There are other problems, \ngiven that it is questionable whether scanning - the origin of the \nWhorl's Echidna - works on non-human monsters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for personality characteristics, I mean things like the Cumaean's\ninterest in witchcraft and archeology, and Echidna's rather prudish\ninterest in the virginity of the priesthood, and her killing of Pas to\npreserve her rule over the Whorl. They don't seem at all like the same\nperson." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see why witchcraft and archaeology exclude prudery and power-\nhunger in a personality." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, and for all we know they could both be champion footballers too. \nBut we can only identify positive aspects of characters in books given \nby the author, and no common personality characteristics seem to be \ngiven to Echidna and the Cumaean.\n\nTheir speech patterns are also completely different - and these are \nsomething that Wolfe worked extremely hard on in Long Sun. Had he \nwanted to identify Echidna with the Cumaean, he would have made her \nspeak like the Cumaean.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T14:09:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "<53F8A870.8060909@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: In mythology, snakes and caves also did not uniquely identify a \ncharacter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are looking for simplistic one to one correspondence. Mythology (and Wolfe\n\nbeing highly influenced by mythology) do not work in such an orderly and\n\ndirect manner.\n\n\nPagan gods were exported and imported from other cultures and separated and\n\nconflated in ways which make it impossible to identify most of them as simply\n\none god by name or \"personality\". Hence the need for multiple epithets for the\n\nvarious gods, as Wolfe emphasized in Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And the Cumaean is not indicated to share the characteristic of multiplicity " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "with Tzadkiel" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that they are both aliens who have more than one, sometimes animalistic, \n\nshape, I find the deduction to be heuristic. If one is familiar with the Judeo-\n\nChristian principle that some angels fell to earth to become demons and that\n\nthese demons usually have counterparts in pagan gods, (e.g. Lucifer, the \"light\n\nbringer\"and Prometheus), the connection becomes more clear.\n\n\n\nAliens such as Tzadkiel and B, F and O represent angels of the Urth story\n\nso one may deduce that the aliens residing on Urth represent fallen angels or demons\n\nsuch as Abaia,Typhon, The Cumaean and Father Inire. I, personally, find the analogy \n\nuseful to understanding the BotNS story. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, and for all we know they could both be champion footballers too. \nBut we can only identify positive aspects of characters in books given \nby the author, and no common personality characteristics seem to be \ngiven to Echidna and the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am unclear as to why football is pertinent to this discussion. But I find cave\n\ndwelling, marriage to Typhon, snake association, witchcraft and human sacrifice\n\nto be a sufficient constellation of traits to link these two Wolfean literary\n\ncharacters via their mythological connections." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Their speech patterns are also completely different - and these are \nsomething that Wolfe worked extremely hard on in Long Sun. Had he \nwanted to identify Echidna with the Cumaean, he would have made her \nspeak like the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Likewise Pas and Typhon possess strikingly different \"speech patterns\", \"personalities\"\n\nand other traits. Are you suggesting that Pas and Typhon are unrelated characters? \n\nSpring Wind also differed from Typhon, just as young Alexander differed from middle-aged \n\nAlexander. We must expect personality changes when a character finds him/herself in \n\ndifferent circumstances.\n\n\nI think the transformation from Urthly demon to electronic Whorl god is the likely \n\nsource of such differences and, as such, fully intended by Wolfe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FA0893.70701@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T15:45:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baldanders' dream", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 24/08/2014 15:09, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn:\n\nNo, and for all we know they could both be champion footballers too.\nBut we can only identify positive aspects of characters in books given\nby the author, and no common personality characteristics seem to be\ngiven to Echidna and the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am unclear as to why football is pertinent to this discussion. But I find cave\ndwelling, marriage to Typhon, snake association, witchcraft and human sacrifice\nto be a sufficient constellation of traits to link these two Wolfean literary\ncharacters via their mythological connections." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Football is as pertinent to the Cumaean as virgin acolytes and a desire \nto rule. That is to say, the personality characterics of the Cumaean as \nwritten resemble those of Echidna about as much as they resemble those \nof Lionel Messi.\n\nNor do I recall Typhon asking after his wife when Severian subsequently \nencountered him.\n\nShould not these chains of allusion, if they are intended to be \nmeaningful, dip at some point into the personaities or storyline \nencountered in the text?\n\nIt's true that in the promiscuously retconned mythologies of Ancient \nGreece and elsewhere, characters absorbed characteristics from each \nother such that probably no two characters in myth can be seen as \nentirely separate. That seems reason enough in itself to take the \nposition that a relatively vague link has no significance in terms of \nidentifying characters associated with the particular mythological \ncharacters.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }