{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6632", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6632, "subject": "to the dark tower came and the bull(?) of the sun", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2014-08-20T06:45:50+00:00", "last": "2014-08-20T16:54:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-20T06:45:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) : to the dark tower came and the bull(?) of the sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "doing some research for my \"Solar Labyrinth: write up and was quite pleased\nto rediscover that the killing of the astral bull of the sun was every bit\nas important to the syncretic Mithras worship in the late Hellenistic and\nRoman cults as the execution of Christ is in the Christian cosmology. I\nearlier wrote that \"To the Dark Tower Came\" was a semiotic study of\nslippage in the letter s, but was confounded a bit by the symbolism of the\nbison and the penned whale.\n\nCould that bison, pierced by the arrow, possibly from the archer\nSagittarius, represent the bull of the sun? (Also, are the women with fire\nin their eyes who flank the young king sybils, or Delphic pythians? Seers\nfor the god of light and the sun, Apollo? (In addition to healing, Apollo\nbrought plague and sickness, too - thus the rats, besides representing\nsenility eating at the mind of the king). Can we safely call a bison a\nbull? They are definitely bovines like cattle, but might not be a valid\nTaurus. (Tarus is a species name for cows)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-20T14:02:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) to the dark tower came and the bull(?) of the sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: doing some research for my \"Solar Labyrinth: write up " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and was quite pleased to rediscover that the killing of the astral bull" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of the sun was every bit as important to the syncretic Mithras worship" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the late Hellenistic and Roman cults as the execution of Christ is " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the Christian cosmology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hopefully this is related. For a long time I was mystified by the dream\n\nappearance of a giant, bull-headed father for Severian (as Thecla) as he \n\nlay dying on the battlefield.\n\n\nI thought it was likely related to Zeus, i.e. the Europa story, especially\n\ngiven that there is a line from Dorcas (as Meschianne) discussing a golden\n\nbeam (shower) of golden light, another seductive apparition of Zeus. But \n\nI always thought something was missing that I didn't get until I read RttW, \n\nwhere Dionysus is specifically referenced.\n\n\nNot only is the bull also related to Dionysus worship but Zeus and Dionysus\n\nhave sort of a confused father-son-father relationship in an early version of \n\nthe trinity. I think we see something similar in Typhon/Pas, Silk and The\n\nOutsider.\n\n\nThe Roman empire mostly didn't stray too far from the Mediterranean, so I\n\nthink it is important to note that such Eastern mysticism as syncretic\n\nMithras worship was brought to Europe by the earlier Alexandrian empire.\n\nHence (I think) the parallels between the Alexander's life story and the\n\ncombined stories of Spring Wind and Typhon. \n\n\nI think we can agree that Wolfe is fascinated by the pagan precursors to\n\nChristianity. Purely through reading his work I've developed more than a\n\npassing interest myself. The relationship between such (ostensibly) \n\nhumaniform pagan gods as Zeus and Dionysus (and Tzadkiel) and giant \n\nmonstrosities such as Abaia, Great Scylla and The Mother has been discussed \n\nin other threads (not to mention the relationship of such beings to Severian's\n\nown family tree, in the pattern of the mythic Greek demi-god/heroes). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F4D2B8.6080303@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-08-20T16:54:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) : to the dark tower came and the bull(?) of the sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/20/2014 1:45 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n Can we safely\ncall a bison a bull? They are definitely bovines like cattle, but might\nnot be a valid Taurus. (Tarus is a species name for cows)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as they are not obviously female, a honed bison makes a fine \nbull. Perhaps even an Ethiopian bull, to Hellenize the difference in \nappearance." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] } ] }