Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I

On Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com <marcobadie at katamail.com> wrote: My third post at the Urth list. Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts. My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead. Next. When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia. In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism. The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation). Next post: Catherine and the Undine Marco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english).

On Friday, August 22, 2014, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote: I like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new sun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a bit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals the sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus est - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood and the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water is rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood of genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to healing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood of renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin to warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist. Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the baptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...) On Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','marcobadie at katamail.com');> < marcobadie at katamail.com <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','marcobadie at katamail.com');>> wrote:

My third post at the Urth list. Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts. My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead. Next. When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia. In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism. The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation). Next post: Catherine and the Undine Marco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english).

On Friday, August 22, 2014, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote: Marco wrote: "The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation)." I need to do a little research I suppose, but is it inverted to the point of confirmation following baptism and preceding communion? I keep kind of overlooking the whole Byzantium angle in favor of catholic imagery I guess. Sorry for ignoring this part of your point in my initial response.

On 22/08/2014 08:10, marcobadie at katamail.com wrote: My third post at the Urth list. Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts. My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead. Next. When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia. In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism. The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation).

On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 5:25 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote: I like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new sun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a bit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals the sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus est - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood and the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water is rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood of genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to healing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood of renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin to warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist. Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the baptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...) On Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com < marcobadie at katamail.com> wrote:

My third post at the Urth list. Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts. My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead. Next. When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia. In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism. The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation). Next post: Catherine and the Undine Marco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english).

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Marco Checchini: Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive

the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.

Marc Aramini: And to some degree the conciliator redeems the diabolical Eucharist - Thecla is brought to genuine life not only because of the analept of the alzabo, but because of who is consuming her flesh.

JJ: ...There also seem to be images of the eucharist

GW: There are diabolical eucharists: people who are eating corpses in order to get the

memory of the dead person...

JJ: Now the climax of that inversion seems to be when Severian actually eats the brains

of the preceding autarch. Did you see that as another form of the diabolical communion?

Or something that was necessary? It seems to be necessary to the novel.

GW: What I was doing was to say that in order to be a good ruler you must be familiar with

the tradition of that rule---of that country and of the people in the past who have

administered that rule. No, not diabolical in that case. The diabolical thing is more

Vodalus and the graverobbers

JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here or some type of power that

really was operative in the world before the kingdom of God?

GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were real. But what I tried

to do was to write about that pagan world as the pagans themselves wrote about it.

Brad Harvey: For what its worth, this description is very close to both the New Testament (baptised into christ's death, etc...) understanding of baptism and the Catechism (that develops more fully the connection between the noah-flood, the arc, and baptism).

Gerry Quinn: I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - might she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard her corpse that night?