{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6637", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6637, "subject": "Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2014-08-22T07:10:43+00:00", "last": "2014-08-22T18:04:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "marcobadie at katamail.com", "address": "marcobadie at katamail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T07:10:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my first posts.\n\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just dead.\n\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation of the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the baptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian ?a \"Soldier of Abaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin means \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close to Confirmation).\n\n\nNext post: Catherine and the Undine\n\n\nMarco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T09:25:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new\nsun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a\nbit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals\nthe sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus\nest - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood\nand the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water\nis rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood\nof genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to\nhealing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood\nof renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin\nto warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist.\n Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the\nbaptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com \nwrote:\n My third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my\nfirst posts.\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer\nstates a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just\ndead.\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in\nthe form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation\nof the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he\naccepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time\nconsciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the\nbaptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a \"Soldier of\nAbaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of\nSolidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin\nmeans \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". Severian\ninstead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of\nEucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern Orthodox\nChurch rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is very close\nto Confirmation).\n\nNext post: Catherine and the Undine\n\nMarco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T09:31:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And to some degree the conciliator redeems the diabolical Eucharist -\nThecla is brought to genuine life not only because of the analept of the\nalzabo, but because of who is consuming her flesh. I need to read the\nsequence all the way through again but completely undercutting sev's moral\njourney makes the book a bit more like Wright's secular naturalistic\nreading (that sev has no free will and is simply manipulated by\nforces) which I resist quite innately as contrary to Wolfe's entire belief\nsystem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, August 22, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new\nsun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a\nbit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals\nthe sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus\nest - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood\nand the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water\nis rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood\nof genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to\nhealing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood\nof renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin\nto warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist.\n Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the\nbaptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...)\n\nOn Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com\n <\nmarcobadie at katamail.com\n> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " My third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my\nfirst posts.\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer\nstates a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just\ndead.\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in\nthe form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation\nof the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he\naccepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time\nconsciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the\nbaptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a \"Soldier of\nAbaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of\nSolidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin\nmeans \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". Severian\ninstead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of\nEucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern\nOrthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is\nvery close to Confirmation).\n\nNext post: Catherine and the Undine\n\nMarco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english)." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T09:51:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marco wrote: \"The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the\nEastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where\nEucharist is very close to Confirmation).\"\n\nI need to do a little research I suppose, but is it inverted to the point\nof confirmation following baptism and preceding communion? I keep kind of\noverlooking the whole Byzantium angle in favor of catholic imagery I guess.\n Sorry for ignoring this part of your point in my initial response." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T09:57:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The water/death/resurrection imagery is in several scenes, like Dorcas'\nappearance where she hands him Terminus Est, like the breaking of terminus\nest at the lake against Baldanders , etc. I don't think the imagery at the\nstart is simply baptism imagery, though certianly that might be one part of\nit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Friday, August 22, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nMarco wrote: \"The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the\nEastern Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where\nEucharist is very close to Confirmation).\"\n\nI need to do a little research I suppose, but is it inverted to the point\nof confirmation following baptism and preceding communion? I keep kind of\noverlooking the whole Byzantium angle in favor of catholic imagery I guess.\n Sorry for ignoring this part of your point in my initial response." } ] }, { "message_id": "<53F723E5.8010201@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T11:05:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 22/08/2014 08:10, marcobadie at katamail.com wrote:\nMy third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at \nmy first posts.\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer \nstates a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, \njust dead.\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised \nin the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the \ncongregation of the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when \nhe accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this \ntime consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him \nat the baptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a \"Soldier of \nAbaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation \nof Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in \nLatin means \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". \nSeverian instead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament \nof Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern \nOrthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist \nis very close to Confirmation)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - \nmight she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard \nher corpse that night?\n\nThe rest works for me; Severian was arguably baptised, confirmed and \nreceived the Eucharist of the Church of Abaia/Vodalus as you say - but \nin the end he abjured that faith...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Brad Henry", "address": "bradhenry101 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T14:31:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what its worth, this description is very close to both the New\nTestament (baptised into christ's death, etc...) understanding of baptism\nand the Catechism (that develops more fully the connection between the\nnoah-flood, the arc, and baptism)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 5:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new\nsun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a\nbit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals\nthe sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus\nest - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood\nand the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water\nis rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood\nof genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to\nhealing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood\nof renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin\nto warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist.\n Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the\nbaptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...)\n\n\nOn Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com <\nmarcobadie at katamail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " My third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my\nfirst posts.\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer\nstates a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just\ndead.\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in\nthe form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation\nof the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he\naccepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time\nconsciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the\nbaptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a \"Soldier of\nAbaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of\nSolidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin\nmeans \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". Severian\ninstead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of\nEucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern\nOrthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is\nvery close to Confirmation).\n\nNext post: Catherine and the Undine\n\nMarco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T15:17:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marco Checchini: Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the sacrament of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: And to some degree the conciliator redeems the diabolical Eucharist -\nThecla is brought to genuine life not only because of the analept of the\nalzabo, but because of who is consuming her flesh." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am guessing Marc gets the \"diabolical\" adjective for this eucharist from the James\n\nJordan interview with Gene Wolfe back from 1992. An excerpt and a link to that interview\n\nwill be found below. I find Wolfe to be at his least guarded and most revelatory in this\n\ninterview and would recommend it, in its entirety, to any who are unfamiliar with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: ...There also seem to be images of the eucharist" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: There are diabolical eucharists: people who are eating corpses in order to get the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "memory of the dead person..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: Now the climax of that inversion seems to be when Severian actually eats the brains" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of the preceding autarch. Did you see that as another form of the diabolical communion? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or something that was necessary? It seems to be necessary to the novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: What I was doing was to say that in order to be a good ruler you must be familiar with " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the tradition of that rule---of that country and of the people in the past who have " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "administered that rule. No, not diabolical in that case. The diabolical thing is more " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vodalus and the graverobbers" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My own personal favorite Wolfe quote from that interview is:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: Which is another way of saying, do we have fallen angels here or some type of power that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "really was operative in the world before the kingdom of God?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: That is my personal belief. I think that the gods of paganism were real. But what I tried " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to do was to write about that pagan world as the pagans themselves wrote about it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That opened up worlds of understanding for me. The link to the whole interview is here:\n\n\nhttp://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T18:04:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: Chapter I", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brad Harvey: For what its worth, this description is very close to both the New\nTestament (baptised into christ's death, etc...) understanding of baptism\nand the Catechism (that develops more fully the connection between the\nnoah-flood, the arc, and baptism)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian's flooding of the Vincula and Silkhorn's cleansing of the sewer\n\non Green serve a similar connective function.\n\n\nMoreover the mythological cleansing of the Augean Stables was done by an oft-\n\ncited pre-cursor to Jesus: Heracles." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - \nmight she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard \nher corpse that night?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm good with the association of this corpse with Severian's mother, who is likely\n\nrepresented in Dr. Talos' play as the Contessa Carina. \n\n\nI think the evidence is against this corpse being a random commoner. Why would\n\nVodalus and Thea risk their lives just to be able to eat the flesh and live\n\nthe memories of a peasant's mother? The long, pale gown doesn't seem very \n\npeasantish either.\n\n\nMoreover, Severian later sees her face in the face of the exultant Ultan. Plus, \n\nthe corpse's livid face might indicate she had recently been tortured to death\n\nby Allowin's necklace (which receives an otherwise inexplicably detailed description).\n\n\nGiven that Cyriaca was later sentenced to strangulation for the crime of adultery, I \n\nsuspect this was also this woman's crime. If the connection of this corpse to\n\nseverian's mother is valid, it adds insight to the brief relationship between\n\nCatherine and Ouen. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }