{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6639", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6639, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 120, Issue 59", "messages": 1, "voices": 1, "first": "2014-08-22T20:46:04+00:00", "last": "2014-08-22T20:46:04+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "marcobadie at katamail.com", "address": "marcobadie at katamail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-22T20:46:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 120, Issue 59", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thanks for your comments. But why Hildegrin would be interested in the woman of a peasant?\nAnd Vodalus?\nAlso, the grave of the dark-haired woman is placed higher?\nin the necropolis than the graves of peasants.\n\n\nMarco Cecchini\n\nDa: \"Urth\" urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nA: urth at lists.urth.net\nCc: \nData: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:32:25 -0700\nOggetto: Urth Digest, Vol 120, Issue 59" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Send Urth mailing list submissions to\n\turth at lists.urth.net\n\nTo subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit\n\thttp://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net\nor, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to\n\turth-request at lists.urth.net\n\nYou can reach the person managing the list at\n\turth-owner at lists.urth.net\n\nWhen replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific\nthan \"Re: Contents of Urth digest...\"\n\n\nToday's Topics:\n\n 1. Re: Baldanders' dream (Gerry Quinn)\n 2. Re: Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n Chapter I (Gerry Quinn)\n 3. 5HC (Lee)\n 4. Re: Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n Chapter I (Brad Henry)\n 5. Short Story 101: A Solar Labyrinth (Marc Aramini)\n\n\n----------------------------------------------------------------------\n\nMessage: 1\nDate: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:20 +0100\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Baldanders' dream\nMessage-ID: <53F72288.7050603 at bindweed.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed\n\n\nOn 21/08/2014 17:20, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two\ncharacters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find them to be sufficiently linked. It is to be remembered that the Cumaean\nis the leader of the Witches in BotNS. There is a constellation of traits\nincluding snakes, witchcraft and caves which link such Greco-Roman female\nmythological characters as Echidna, Lamia, Hecate, the Pythian Oracle and the\nCumaean Sibyl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note the plural in \"characters\". It seems to bear out what I said; \nsnakes and caves do not uniquely identify a character." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Besides, she's not necessarily a snake:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Snake-like\" or \"snake-associated\" would be more accurate descriptors. Mythological\n Echidna was not a \"snake\" but she had snakey attributes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "She shares no obvious personality characteristics with Echidna." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what \"personality characteristics\" you might be referring to. But,\nEchidna, in Long Sun, clearly has snakey attributes and was quite notably involved\nin an incident of human sacrifice.\n\nThe Cumaean also has snakey attributes and is associated with human sacrifice.\n(Hopefully the connection between human sacrifice and Apu Punchau doesn't need\nto be explained; The Cumaean's \"s?ance\" is not quite what it seems)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Frankly, it does have to be explained - it is certainly not a direct \nlink. In any case, human sacrifice was not unique to a single god in \nLong Sun.\n\nAs for personality characteristics, I mean things like the Cumaean's \ninterest in witchcraft and archeology, and Echidna's rather prudish \ninterest in the virginity of the priesthood, and her killing of Pas to \npreserve her rule over the Whorl. They don't seem at all like the same \nperson." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon and Scylla from Long Sun are mentioned in BotNS (and Short Sun). Echidna\nis not mentioned in BotNS by name, but given the combination of cave-dwelling, snake\nassociation, witchcraft and human sacrifice, I think Wolfe has given us enough\nclues to find her in BotNS. Just my opinion, of course. \t\t \t" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would take a lot more in the way of 'clues' to convince me that two \nseemingly unrelated characters, who never appear in the same series of \nbooks, are one and the same.\n\nAnd as so often, I find myself asking: Why? What purpose of Wolfe's \nwould it serve to make them the same anyway? Even if you identify them, \nwhere's the moment you say \"ah, that's why the Cumaean did X, in order \nto fulfil Project Y of Echidna's?\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 2\nDate: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:05:09 +0100\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I\nMessage-ID: <53F723E5.8010201 at bindweed.com>\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"; Format=\"flowed\"\n\n\nOn 22/08/2014 08:10, marcobadie at katamail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at \nmy first posts.\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer \nstates a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, \njust dead.\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised \nin the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the \ncongregation of the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when \nhe accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this \ntime consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him \nat the baptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a \"Soldier of \nAbaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation \nof Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in \nLatin means \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". \nSeverian instead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament \nof Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern \nOrthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist \nis very close to Confirmation)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - \nmight she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard \nher corpse that night?\n\nThe rest works for me; Severian was arguably baptised, confirmed and \nreceived the Eucharist of the Church of Abaia/Vodalus as you say - but \nin the end he abjured that faith...\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n-------------- next part --------------\nAn HTML attachment was scrubbed...\nURL: \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 3\nDate: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:59:33 -0400\nFrom: Lee \nTo: \"urth at urth.net\" \nSubject: (urth) 5HC\nMessage-ID: \nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"iso-8859-1\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: I mean, what would actually be Wolfe's purpose in intending" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "an alternate story? In what way is a story of two rival aboriginal races, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "one of which clearly believes its ancestors are human but is incorrect " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "despite its human memories, better than one in which there is one aboriginal \nrace, and one that is of human ancestry just as they say?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: ...making the whole exploration of identity more \nprofound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I feel Antonio has the answer. One can take a minimalist approach to\n\ninterpreting the novel and assume it is just one person who is killed\n\nand replaced. (keeping in mind that before the corroboration of this in a\n\nWolfe interview, some skeptics felt doubt over whether Dr. Marsch was replaced).\n\n\nOr one can extrapolate the story to the fullest in which every character\n\nin the book is struggling with personal identity issues (including #5's\n\nfamily but for different reasons there).\n\n\nThe advantage to the expanded interpretation is that it allows this book to\n\nserve as a sort of Proustian allegory for the human race. It allows Wolfe\n\nto express the sentiment that if we humans think about ourselves deeply \n\nenough, none of us really knows who we really are or where we really came \n\nfrom.\n\n\nNot everyone enjoys thinking about themselves or the human race in this\n\nmanner but this level of interpretation of 5HC exists for those who do\n\nlet their thoughts drift in this direction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The abo who replaced Marsch, and who would seem well equipped to know..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. You seem to be assuming that the killing and replacement of humans is a \n\nconscious function of these creatures. I (and others) are seeing the opposite:\n\n\nThe drive for killing and imitation is an unconscious instinct. The reason for\n\nthis is that a conscious awareness that you have killed and replaced somebody\n\nwould hinder your ability to imitate them. So from Shadow Children to Abos to\n\nVictor/Dr. Marsch there is a strong self-delusion happening, driving each \n\nimitator to think they really are their victim and to invent whatever lie is\n\nneeded to perpetrate that delusion.\n\n\nThus Victor does not continue writing in Dr. Marsch's personal journal to trick \n\nother people into thinking he is Dr. Marsch. He does it primarily to trick\n\nhimself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "....does not believe in Veil's Hypothesis. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Exactly. How could an Abo believe in a theory which would expose his deception?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(Indeed, Veil herself provided a reason to disbelieve it any, pointing out her " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "motivations for wanting to believe it.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So Dr. Veil both formulates and disbelieves her theory that humans on these planets\n\nhave been replaced. Once again, Wolfe gives us a choice. Which story do YOU believe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The relaxation method (not principle) was invoked by Marsch to describe \nwhat has happened to the clone sequence whose end-product is currently \nNo. 5 - each is now nearly identical to the previous one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. Marsch is using this principle to explain to Number Five why his chain of clones\n\napproach is NOT working. There is no adjustment. No adaptation. This is meant as\n\nirony, coming from a being who is (unconsciously) a master of adjustment and adaptation.\n\n\nNumber Five and Maitre's burning frustration is illustrated in the dream sequence. In the\n\ndream, the captain will not untether the ship until he can figure out what is tying the \n\nship to the dock. They (Number 5/Maitre) consider themselves superior but don't understand \n\nwhy they can't even achieve mastery of this one backwater planet.\n\n\nNumber Five doesn't want to hear it, but the answer to his question is given by \"Victor\" in \n\nthe guise of Dr. Marsch. Adjustment and adaptation, the exact abilities which have allowed \n\nthe native, imitative species to take over both planets. \t\t \t \t\t \n\n------------------------------\n\nMessage: 4\nDate: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:31:50 -0400\nFrom: Brad Henry " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: Re: (urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer:\n\tChapter I\nMessage-ID:\n\t\nContent-Type: text/plain; charset=\"utf-8\"\n\nFor what its worth, this description is very close to both the New\nTestament (baptised into christ's death, etc...) understanding of baptism\nand the Catechism (that develops more fully the connection between the\nnoah-flood, the arc, and baptism).\n\n\nOn Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 5:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new\nsun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a\nbit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals\nthe sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus\nest - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood\nand the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water\nis rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood\nof genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to\nhealing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood\nof renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin\nto warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist.\n Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the\nbaptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...)\n\n\nOn Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com < > marcobadie at katamail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " My third post at the Urth list.\nThanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my\nfirst posts.\n\nMy point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer\nstates a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just\ndead.\n\nNext.\nWhen Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in\nthe form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation\nof the subjects of Abaia.\nIn the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he\naccepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time\nconsciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the\nbaptism.\nThe Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a \"Soldier of\nAbaia\" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of\nSolidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin\nmeans \"to pay\" and the Roman soldiers were paid in \"Solidi\". Severian\ninstead is paid in chrisos (only one).\n\nLater, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of\nEucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla.\nThe succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern\nOrthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is\nvery close to Confirmation).\n\nNext post: Catherine and the Undine\n\nMarco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }