# Urth Digest, Vol 120, Issue 59 *The Urth list — 1 messages, 1 voices, 22 Aug 2014* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### marcobadie at katamail.com *22 Aug 2014, 20:46* thanks for your comments. But why Hildegrin would be interested in the woman of a peasant? And Vodalus? Also, the grave of the dark-haired woman is placed higher? in the necropolis than the graves of peasants. Marco Cecchini Da: "Urth" urth-bounces at lists.urth.net A: urth at lists.urth.net Cc: Data: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 07:32:25 -0700 Oggetto: Urth Digest, Vol 120, Issue 59 > Send Urth mailing list submissions to > urth at lists.urth.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://lists.urth.net/listinfo.cgi/urth-urth.net > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > urth-request at lists.urth.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at > urth-owner at lists.urth.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Urth digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Baldanders' dream (Gerry Quinn) > 2. Re: Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: > Chapter I (Gerry Quinn) > 3. 5HC (Lee) > 4. Re: Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: > Chapter I (Brad Henry) > 5. Short Story 101: A Solar Labyrinth (Marc Aramini) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 11:59:20 +0100 > From: Gerry Quinn > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) Baldanders' dream > Message-ID: <53F72288.7050603 at bindweed.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > > On 21/08/2014 17:20, Lee wrote: >>> Gerry Quinn: Echidna is, but the Cumaean isn't, so it hardly ties the two >>> characters. Snakes and caves do not an Echidna make. >> I find them to be sufficiently linked. It is to be remembered that the Cumaean >> is the leader of the Witches in BotNS. There is a constellation of traits >> including snakes, witchcraft and caves which link such Greco-Roman female >> mythological characters as Echidna, Lamia, Hecate, the Pythian Oracle and the >> Cumaean Sibyl. > Note the plural in "characters". It seems to bear out what I said; > snakes and caves do not uniquely identify a character. >>> Besides, she's not necessarily a snake: >> "Snake-like" or "snake-associated" would be more accurate descriptors. Mythological >> Echidna was not a "snake" but she had snakey attributes. >>> She shares no obvious personality characteristics with Echidna. >> I'm not sure what "personality characteristics" you might be referring to. But, >> Echidna, in Long Sun, clearly has snakey attributes and was quite notably involved >> in an incident of human sacrifice. >> >> The Cumaean also has snakey attributes and is associated with human sacrifice. >> (Hopefully the connection between human sacrifice and Apu Punchau doesn't need >> to be explained; The Cumaean's "s?ance" is not quite what it seems). > Frankly, it does have to be explained - it is certainly not a direct > link. In any case, human sacrifice was not unique to a single god in > Long Sun. > > As for personality characteristics, I mean things like the Cumaean's > interest in witchcraft and archeology, and Echidna's rather prudish > interest in the virginity of the priesthood, and her killing of Pas to > preserve her rule over the Whorl. They don't seem at all like the same > person. >> Typhon and Scylla from Long Sun are mentioned in BotNS (and Short Sun). Echidna >> is not mentioned in BotNS by name, but given the combination of cave-dwelling, snake >> association, witchcraft and human sacrifice, I think Wolfe has given us enough >> clues to find her in BotNS. Just my opinion, of course. > It would take a lot more in the way of 'clues' to convince me that two > seemingly unrelated characters, who never appear in the same series of > books, are one and the same. > > And as so often, I find myself asking: Why? What purpose of Wolfe's > would it serve to make them the same anyway? Even if you identify them, > where's the moment you say "ah, that's why the Cumaean did X, in order > to fulfil Project Y of Echidna's?" > > - Gerry Quinn > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 12:05:09 +0100 > From: Gerry Quinn > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: > Chapter I > Message-ID: <53F723E5.8010201 at bindweed.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > > On 22/08/2014 08:10, marcobadie at katamail.com wrote: >> My third post at the Urth list. >> Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at >> my first posts. >> >> My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer >> states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, >> just dead. >> >> Next. >> When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised >> in the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the >> congregation of the subjects of Abaia. >> In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when >> he accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this >> time consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him >> at the baptism. >> The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of >> Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation >> of Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in >> Latin means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". >> Severian instead is paid in chrisos (only one). >> >> Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament >> of Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. >> The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern >> Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist >> is very close to Confirmation). > I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - > might she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard > her corpse that night? > > The rest works for me; Severian was arguably baptised, confirmed and > received the Eucharist of the Church of Abaia/Vodalus as you say - but > in the end he abjured that faith... > > - Gerry Quinn > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 09:59:33 -0400 > From: Lee > To: "urth at urth.net" > Subject: (urth) 5HC > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> Gerry Quinn: I mean, what would actually be Wolfe's purpose in intending >> an alternate story? In what way is a story of two rival aboriginal races, >> one of which clearly believes its ancestors are human but is incorrect >> despite its human memories, better than one in which there is one aboriginal >> race, and one that is of human ancestry just as they say? >> Antonio Pedro Marques: ...making the whole exploration of identity more >> profound. > I feel Antonio has the answer. One can take a minimalist approach to > > interpreting the novel and assume it is just one person who is killed > > and replaced. (keeping in mind that before the corroboration of this in a > > Wolfe interview, some skeptics felt doubt over whether Dr. Marsch was replaced). > > > Or one can extrapolate the story to the fullest in which every character > > in the book is struggling with personal identity issues (including #5's > > family but for different reasons there). > > > The advantage to the expanded interpretation is that it allows this book to > > serve as a sort of Proustian allegory for the human race. It allows Wolfe > > to express the sentiment that if we humans think about ourselves deeply > > enough, none of us really knows who we really are or where we really came > > from. > > > Not everyone enjoys thinking about themselves or the human race in this > > manner but this level of interpretation of 5HC exists for those who do > > let their thoughts drift in this direction. >> The abo who replaced Marsch, and who would seem well equipped to know... > No. You seem to be assuming that the killing and replacement of humans is a > > conscious function of these creatures. I (and others) are seeing the opposite: > > > The drive for killing and imitation is an unconscious instinct. The reason for > > this is that a conscious awareness that you have killed and replaced somebody > > would hinder your ability to imitate them. So from Shadow Children to Abos to > > Victor/Dr. Marsch there is a strong self-delusion happening, driving each > > imitator to think they really are their victim and to invent whatever lie is > > needed to perpetrate that delusion. > > > Thus Victor does not continue writing in Dr. Marsch's personal journal to trick > > other people into thinking he is Dr. Marsch. He does it primarily to trick > > himself. >> ....does not believe in Veil's Hypothesis. > Exactly. How could an Abo believe in a theory which would expose his deception? >> (Indeed, Veil herself provided a reason to disbelieve it any, pointing out her >> motivations for wanting to believe it.) > So Dr. Veil both formulates and disbelieves her theory that humans on these planets > > have been replaced. Once again, Wolfe gives us a choice. Which story do YOU believe? >> The relaxation method (not principle) was invoked by Marsch to describe >> what has happened to the clone sequence whose end-product is currently >> No. 5 - each is now nearly identical to the previous one. > No. Marsch is using this principle to explain to Number Five why his chain of clones > > approach is NOT working. There is no adjustment. No adaptation. This is meant as > > irony, coming from a being who is (unconsciously) a master of adjustment and adaptation. > > > Number Five and Maitre's burning frustration is illustrated in the dream sequence. In the > > dream, the captain will not untether the ship until he can figure out what is tying the > > ship to the dock. They (Number 5/Maitre) consider themselves superior but don't understand > > why they can't even achieve mastery of this one backwater planet. > > > Number Five doesn't want to hear it, but the answer to his question is given by "Victor" in > > the guise of Dr. Marsch. Adjustment and adaptation, the exact abilities which have allowed > > the native, imitative species to take over both planets. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2014 10:31:50 -0400 > From: Brad Henry > To: The Urth Mailing List > Subject: Re: (urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer: > Chapter I > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > For what its worth, this description is very close to both the New > Testament (baptised into christ's death, etc...) understanding of baptism > and the Catechism (that develops more fully the connection between the > noah-flood, the arc, and baptism). > > > On Fri, Aug 22, 2014 at 5:25 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: >> I like it, but there is and always has been a syncretic symbolism in new >> sun between water, healing, and death that undercuts this baptism imagery a >> bit. It's not just baptism, it is healing coupled with death. He heals >> the sick at Thrax in the water cataract stumbling three times with terminus >> est - water imagery is turned into both healing and death- it is the flood >> and the crucifixion of urth, renewal through drowning. Over and over water >> is rebirth. Not for abaia, I don't think, but the link between the flood >> of genesis and the apocalypse of eschatology. Water is always linked to >> healing, death, and resurrection from the very start and presages the flood >> of renewal. I don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin >> to warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist. >> Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the >> baptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...) >> >> >> On Friday, August 22, 2014, marcobadie at katamail.com < > marcobadie at katamail.com> wrote: >>> My third post at the Urth list. >>> Thanks you, Gerry Quinn and Lee, for your comments and observations at my >>> first posts. >>> >>> My point: the double resurrection in Chapter I of Shadow of Torturer >>> states a connection between Severian and the the dark-haired woman, just >>> dead. >>> >>> Next. >>> When Severian is resurrected from water by the Undine, he is baptised in >>> the form of a baptism by immersion, unconsciously entering the congregation >>> of the subjects of Abaia. >>> In the same day, Severian is confirmed in the allegiance to Abaia when he >>> accepts the coin with the face of the Autarch from Vodalus, this time >>> consciously making definitive the choice the Undine made for him at the >>> baptism. >>> The Confirmation administered by Vodalus makes Severian a "Soldier of >>> Abaia" (Severian thinks himself a Vodalarius). Soldier is a derivation of >>> Solidarius, Latin meaning someone who works for money. Solidare in Latin >>> means "to pay" and the Roman soldiers were paid in "Solidi". Severian >>> instead is paid in chrisos (only one). >>> >>> Later, in the Claw of Conciliator, Severian will receive the sacrament of >>> Eucharist in the form of the flesh of Thecla. >>> The succession of sacraments follows the tradition of the Eastern >>> Orthodox Church rather than the Roman Catholic Church (where Eucharist is >>> very close to Confirmation). >>> >>> Next post: Catherine and the Undine >>> >>> Marco Cecchini, from Italy (sorry for my sloppy english). >> _______________________________________________ ---