{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6642", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6642, "subject": "5HX", "messages": 9, "voices": 3, "first": "2014-08-24T13:29:51+00:00", "last": "2014-08-25T00:23:15+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T13:29:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The diary has more than one function. He is, in a sense, trying to \nconvince himself he is human, as Wolfe has noted. But one does not trty \nto convince oneself of something one believes to be true." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You recognize that Victor is trying to convince himself he is human but do not\n\nrecognize that Victor often succeeds in doing so.\n\n\nWhen Marsch first meets Victor he notes Victor's dark hair, green eyes and pale\n\nskill. Physical characteristics Marsch himself possesses. The imitation had \n\nstarted immediately.\n\n\nVictor starts the adventure unable even to open a jar according to his father.\n\nBut he gets progressively better with tools, the longer he spends with Marsch.\n\nHis speech also becomes progressively better and Marsch eventually recognizes\n\nhis is copying Marsch's own speech patterns.\n\n\nIt is clear (to me and others) that during the course of the VRT story that \n\nthe narrator is having an identity crisis. He truly doesn't know who he is.\n\nIn one entry he is speaking as Marsch, in another he is discussing his \n\nshape-shifting mother. This would not happen if Victor's actions were entirely\n\na conscious attempt to pretend he is Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for whether he killed Marsch or Marsch met with an accident, we are \nnot actually told. Possibly there was an altercation initiated by \nMarsch in which Marsch got killed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are not \"actually told\" much of anything. That's kind of the point of this\n\nstory. But since \"the boy\" (Marsch really) was killed right after Marsch\n\nhad shot the cat (which is implied to have been a shapeshifting lover to \n\nVictor), and because the boy was becoming proficient with a gun, we are given\n\nboth the means and motive for Victor to have killed Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All we know is that Marsch did not return from the wilderness, while Victor did." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We do not \"know\" this, if knowledge is bestowed upon the reader only by what is\n\n\"actually told\", then Victor replacing Marsch is merely a deduction which can be made. \n\nAnd, as I noted in a previous post, there are some very devoted and skeptical Wolfe\n\nfans who DID find this replacement to be a false assumption until Wolfe revealed\n\nit to be true in an interview. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FA032A.80500@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T15:22:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 24/08/2014 14:29, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: The diary has more than one function. He is, in a sense, trying to\nconvince himself he is human, as Wolfe has noted. But one does not trty\nto convince oneself of something one believes to be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You recognize that Victor is trying to convince himself he is human but do not\nrecognize that Victor often succeeds in doing so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see anywhere it is indicated that he outright believes he is \nfactually the original Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Marsch first meets Victor he notes Victor's dark hair, green eyes and pale\nskill. Physical characteristics Marsch himself possesses. The imitation had\nstarted immediately." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. We are never told of Marsch's appearance, but from his references \nto Victor's particular characteristics without any comment as to his \nown, we may surely infer that they were different.\n\nIf you are thinking of Marsch's first visit to Saltimbanque Street, that \nwas Victor. The original Marsch never visited Sainte Croix." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Victor starts the adventure unable even to open a jar according to his father.\nBut he gets progressively better with tools, the longer he spends with Marsch.\nHis speech also becomes progressively better and Marsch eventually recognizes\nhis is copying Marsch's own speech patterns." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see no indication that he gets better. From the start he is skillful \nat building fires, pitching tents, etc. He learned to write at school \nwith great difficulty (he spends some time reminiscing on the matter in \nhis cell). Certainly he learns something of anthropology and Marsch's \nspeech patterns as time goes on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is clear (to me and others) that during the course of the VRT story that\nthe narrator is having an identity crisis. He truly doesn't know who he is.\nIn one entry he is speaking as Marsch, in another he is discussing his\nshape-shifting mother. This would not happen if Victor's actions were entirely\na conscious attempt to pretend he is Marsch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In what entry does he speak as Marsch (not counting the diary entries \nthat were actually written by Marsch)? The closest I could think of is \nwhen he speaks of long-legged women etc., and on close examination the \ndetails of events mentioned in this passage stem from his time at the \nUniversity of Roncevaux, which came after Victor replaced the original \nMarsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for whether he killed Marsch or Marsch met with an accident, we are\nnot actually told. Possibly there was an altercation initiated by\nMarsch in which Marsch got killed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are not \"actually told\" much of anything. That's kind of the point of this\nstory. But since \"the boy\" (Marsch really) was killed right after Marsch\nhad shot the cat (which is implied to have been a shapeshifting lover to\nVictor), and because the boy was becoming proficient with a gun, we are given\nboth the means and motive for Victor to have killed Marsch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are told a lot of things which you choose to ignore. But as to the \ncircumstances of the death of Marsch and the cat, we know little, as the \nentries in the notebook after \"I think I wuld shoot them both\" are in \nVictor's hand, and substantially false. This includes the story of the \ncat biting Marsch, which may be a total fabrication in order to explain \nthe change in handwriting, or may be true. Victor writes later that he \nbroke the cat's neck and laid her at 'the boy's' dead feet,\n\nSo, we have Marsch's strangely jealous comment, and then no more from \nMarsch. He goes back to the camp, and some kind of confrontation \nensues. Maybe Victor was waiting for an opportunity, or maybe the \nopportunity created the event. Maybe Marsch shot the cat, maybe Victor \nkilled her as a sacrifice of some kind. Maybe the cat really did bite \nMarsch and he became sick and Victor killed him. We are not told the \ndetails; all we know is that Marsch died and Victor took his place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All we know is that Marsch did not return from the wilderness, while Victor did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We do not \"know\" this, if knowledge is bestowed upon the reader only by what is\n\"actually told\", then Victor replacing Marsch is merely a deduction which can be made." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a deduction for which the evidence is more than ample, from the \nclear indication that the final journal entries are written in Victor's \n(bad) hand, to the prisoner's memories of his mother on Sainte Anne, to \nhis green aboriginal eyes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And, as I noted in a previous post, there are some very devoted and skeptical Wolfe\nfans who DID find this replacement to be a false assumption until Wolfe revealed\nit to be true in an interview. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps indicating that devotion and scepticism can be carried to excess.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T16:26:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "<53FA032A.80500@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marsch the infected kills his own eventual killer, the cat, who had an\nempathetic association with Victor (and passed this to Marsch), and places\nthe cat at Victor's dead feet. That stuff happened just as Wolfe wrote it,\nno fabrication necessary. The boy fell to his death, VRT is \"variance\nreduction techniques\".\n\nThe bite is definitely not a fabrication, but you guys can believe whatever\nyou want. There's actually extremely little fabrication in Fifth Head of\nCerberus, but no overt explanation of mechanisms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 24/08/2014 14:29, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The diary has more than one function. He is, in a sense,\ntrying to\nconvince himself he is human, as Wolfe has noted. But one does not trty\nto convince oneself of something one believes to be true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You recognize that Victor is trying to convince himself he is human but\ndo not\nrecognize that Victor often succeeds in doing so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anywhere it is indicated that he outright believes he is\nfactually the original Marsch.\n\nWhen Marsch first meets Victor he notes Victor's dark hair, green eyes and\npale\nskill. Physical characteristics Marsch himself possesses. The imitation\nhad\nstarted immediately." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. We are never told of Marsch's appearance, but from his references to\nVictor's particular characteristics without any comment as to his own, we\nmay surely infer that they were different.\n\nIf you are thinking of Marsch's first visit to Saltimbanque Street, that\nwas Victor. The original Marsch never visited Sainte Croix.\n\n\nVictor starts the adventure unable even to open a jar according to his\nfather." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But he gets progressively better with tools, the longer he spends with\nMarsch.\nHis speech also becomes progressively better and Marsch eventually\nrecognizes\nhis is copying Marsch's own speech patterns." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see no indication that he gets better. From the start he is skillful at\nbuilding fires, pitching tents, etc. He learned to write at school with\ngreat difficulty (he spends some time reminiscing on the matter in his\ncell). Certainly he learns something of anthropology and Marsch's speech\npatterns as time goes on.\n\n\nIt is clear (to me and others) that during the course of the VRT story that\nthe narrator is having an identity crisis. He truly doesn't know who he\nis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In one entry he is speaking as Marsch, in another he is discussing his\nshape-shifting mother. This would not happen if Victor's actions were\nentirely\na conscious attempt to pretend he is Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In what entry does he speak as Marsch (not counting the diary entries that\nwere actually written by Marsch)? The closest I could think of is when he\nspeaks of long-legged women etc., and on close examination the details of\nevents mentioned in this passage stem from his time at the University of\nRoncevaux, which came after Victor replaced the original Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for whether he killed Marsch or Marsch met with an accident, we are\nnot actually told. Possibly there was an altercation initiated by\nMarsch in which Marsch got killed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We are not \"actually told\" much of anything. That's kind of the point of\nthis\nstory. But since \"the boy\" (Marsch really) was killed right after Marsch\nhad shot the cat (which is implied to have been a shapeshifting lover to\nVictor), and because the boy was becoming proficient with a gun, we are\ngiven\nboth the means and motive for Victor to have killed Marsch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are told a lot of things which you choose to ignore. But as to the\ncircumstances of the death of Marsch and the cat, we know little, as the\nentries in the notebook after \"I think I wuld shoot them both\" are in\nVictor's hand, and substantially false. This includes the story of the cat\nbiting Marsch, which may be a total fabrication in order to explain the\nchange in handwriting, or may be true. Victor writes later that he broke\nthe cat's neck and laid her at 'the boy's' dead feet,\n\nSo, we have Marsch's strangely jealous comment, and then no more from\nMarsch. He goes back to the camp, and some kind of confrontation ensues.\nMaybe Victor was waiting for an opportunity, or maybe the opportunity\ncreated the event. Maybe Marsch shot the cat, maybe Victor killed her as a\nsacrifice of some kind. Maybe the cat really did bite Marsch and he became\nsick and Victor killed him. We are not told the details; all we know is\nthat Marsch died and Victor took his place.\n\n\n\n All we know is that Marsch did not return from the wilderness, while\nVictor did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We do not \"know\" this, if knowledge is bestowed upon the reader only by\nwhat is\n\"actually told\", then Victor replacing Marsch is merely a deduction which\ncan be made." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a deduction for which the evidence is more than ample, from the\nclear indication that the final journal entries are written in Victor's\n(bad) hand, to the prisoner's memories of his mother on Sainte Anne, to his\ngreen aboriginal eyes.\n\n\n\nAnd, as I noted in a previous post, there are some very devoted and\nskeptical Wolfe\nfans who DID find this replacement to be a false assumption until Wolfe\nrevealed\nit to be true in an interview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps indicating that devotion and scepticism can be carried to excess.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T16:52:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It takes about three days for Marsch to be reborn on Easter Sunday from the\nbite as something different - his body undergoes a harrowing over that\nperiod of time. The existence of two alien races is simple: it creates a\nmeans for \"Other\" to be persecuted - abo incarcerated by humans or shadow\nchild incarcerated by abos who believe themselves to be human. Abo\nincarcerated by abo makes no sense. The officer making a slave open the\ndocument with a knife and then showering prophylactically shows\na strange unhandiness and a fear of saliva. This multiplication of species\nmust serve a narrative purpose. The switch of Sandwalker to Eastwind and\nthe human landers suddenly not knowing what open hands mean shows the\nclimactic switch when humans are replaced by abos who now believe\nthemselves to be humans. Why bring up Liev's postulate at all if it isn't\neven a possibility? It is present in the text. So are meta statements\nlike \"don't ask me how big a child is\". The details of A Story honestly\ndon't make much sense unless they are pointing to a symbolic representation\nof Marsch's fate to elucidate the two life cycles at work - larval, adult,\nsessile carapace/tree and an infectious empathic one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nMarsch the infected kills his own eventual killer, the cat, who had an\nempathetic association with Victor (and passed this to Marsch), and places\nthe cat at Victor's dead feet. That stuff happened just as Wolfe wrote it,\nno fabrication necessary. The boy fell to his death, VRT is \"variance\nreduction techniques\".\n\nThe bite is definitely not a fabrication, but you guys can believe\nwhatever you want. There's actually extremely little fabrication in Fifth\nHead of Cerberus, but no overt explanation of mechanisms.\n\n On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FA2EC5.8020108@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T18:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 24/08/2014 17:52, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIt takes about three days for Marsch to be reborn on Easter Sunday \nfrom the bite as something different - his body undergoes a harrowing \nover that period of time. The existence of two alien races is simple: \nit creates a means for \"Other\" to be persecuted - abo incarcerated by \nhumans or shadow child incarcerated by abos who believe themselves to \nbe human. Abo incarcerated by abo makes no sense. The officer making a \nslave open the document with a knife and then showering \nprophylactically shows a strange unhandiness and a fear of saliva. \nThis multiplication of species must serve a narrative purpose. The \nswitch of Sandwalker to Eastwind and the human landers suddenly not \nknowing what open hands mean shows the climactic switch when humans \nare replaced by abos who now believe themselves to be humans. Why \nbring up Liev's postulate at all if it isn't even a possibility? It \nis present in the text. So are meta statements like \"don't ask me how \nbig a child is\". The details of A Story honestly don't make much \nsense unless they are pointing to a symbolic representation of \nMarsch's fate to elucidate the two life cycles at work - larval, \nadult, sessile carapace/tree and an infectious empathic one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We *have* a means for 'Other' to be persecuted: abos persecuted by \nhumans (and of course plenty of intra-human persecution, particularly on \nSainte Croix).\n\nWhy can't the officer simply fear spirochaetes of the ordinary kind? He \nshares the girl with the other officers. If people on Sainte Croix are \nterrified of being infected by alien mind-controlling parasites (or by \nthe wrong sort of alien mind-controlling parasites) why don't we hear \nmore about it than a passing reference to an officer who likes to wash \nafter sex?\n\nThe French landers hold up open hands - it is Sandwalker who doesn't \nunderstand the significance because his people don't use weapons.\n\nThe major advantage of the interpretation, boring as it might seem, in \nwhich nearly everyone in normal society (now) is human apart from a few \nabos who slip under the radar, is that no character in any of the three \nnovellas is required to be completely delusial about concrete matters.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T18:58:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "<53FA2EC5.8020108@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have to explain away the death of the cat, the death of the boy, the\npresence of two alien species, the presence of Veil's hypothesis, believe\nthat number five dreams of abos by coincidence the day after he meets his\naunt, the name of the city, the weird lack of new buildings in the last 140\nyears ... prophylactic has a nice double meaning, I admit, but the bite of\nthe abo that switches Eastwind and Sandwalker symbolizes all that confusion\nof indentity as well - Easwind, Sandwalker, the abos, the shadow children,\nthe humans - they are all confused about who they are, and if that\nconfusion ISN'T in the text, you haven't been reading the same book. The\nmain cast outside of a story are confused about who they are as well. The\nstory is about being confused about who you are. But if we know the life\ncycle of the abos and their imitative properties, a street named after\nlarva and mention of at least one of the species being long and living\nbetween the branches of trees actually resonates a bit.\n\nMy life cycle schema makes the narrative you MUST dismiss as a lie and\nfabrication (the murder of the cat, the death of Victor) literally true and\nalso gives it narrative reason (at least, the slaying of the cat).\n\nYes, we have one plausible means of persecution. I mentioned it already,\nGerry - humans on abo. Do you see that below? It's the same thing you\nreiterated. see that there? \"abo incarcerated by humans OR\" That OR\nimplies there are two plausible scenarios given the species we have been\nintroduced to. The first is the first logical conclusion we can come to\nbefore we understand the life cycles at work.\n\nBut your advantage is not an advantage, because then Victor has to be\nCOMPLETELY DELUSIONAL about his own death and the murder of the cat, very\nvery concrete matters. Either way, delusion ensues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 24/08/2014 17:52, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It takes about three days for Marsch to be reborn on Easter Sunday from\nthe bite as something different - his body undergoes a harrowing over that\nperiod of time. The existence of two alien races is simple: it creates a\nmeans for \"Other\" to be persecuted - abo incarcerated by humans or shadow\nchild incarcerated by abos who believe themselves to be human. Abo\nincarcerated by abo makes no sense. The officer making a slave open the\ndocument with a knife and then showering prophylactically shows a strange\nunhandiness and a fear of saliva. This multiplication of species must serve\na narrative purpose. The switch of Sandwalker to Eastwind and the human\nlanders suddenly not knowing what open hands mean shows the climactic\nswitch when humans are replaced by abos who now believe themselves to be\nhumans. Why bring up Liev's postulate at all if it isn't even a\npossibility? It is present in the text. So are meta statements like\n\"don't ask me how big a child is\". The details of A Story honestly don't\nmake much sense unless they are pointing to a symbolic representation of\nMarsch's fate to elucidate the two life cycles at work - larval, adult,\nsessile carapace/tree and an infectious empathic one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We *have* a means for 'Other' to be persecuted: abos persecuted by humans\n(and of course plenty of intra-human persecution, particularly on Sainte\nCroix).\n\nWhy can't the officer simply fear spirochaetes of the ordinary kind? He\nshares the girl with the other officers. If people on Sainte Croix are\nterrified of being infected by alien mind-controlling parasites (or by the\nwrong sort of alien mind-controlling parasites) why don't we hear more\nabout it than a passing reference to an officer who likes to wash after sex?\n\nThe French landers hold up open hands - it is Sandwalker who doesn't\nunderstand the significance because his people don't use weapons.\n\nThe major advantage of the interpretation, boring as it might seem, in\nwhich nearly everyone in normal society (now) is human apart from a few\nabos who slip under the radar, is that no character in any of the three\nnovellas is required to be completely delusial about concrete matters.\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FA519B.7050706@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T20:56:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 24/08/2014 19:58, Marc Aramini wrote:\nYou have to explain away the death of the cat, the death of the boy, \nthe presence of two alien species, the presence of Veil's hypothesis, \nbelieve that number five dreams of abos by coincidence the day after \nhe meets his aunt, the name of the city, the weird lack of new \nbuildings in the last 140 years ... prophylactic has a nice double \nmeaning, I admit, but the bite of the abo that switches Eastwind and \nSandwalker symbolizes all that confusion of indentity as well - \nEaswind, Sandwalker, the abos, the shadow children, the humans - they \nare all confused about who they are, and if that confusion ISN'T in \nthe text, you haven't been reading the same book. The main cast \noutside of a story are confused about who they are as well. The story \nis about being confused about who you are. But if we know the life \ncycle of the abos and their imitative properties, a street named after \nlarva and mention of at least one of the species being long and living \nbetween the branches of trees actually resonates a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My answers:\n\nCat: unknown causes, though Victor said he broke its neck, maybe true\n\nDeath of the boy: a lie, it was Marsch who died\n\nPresence of two alien species: not postulated by me (the Shadow Children \nare degenerate humans).\n\nVeil's Hypothesis: wrong (and in fact the aunt made another great point \nagainst it, which is that a species able to mimic well enough to lose \nthe power of mimicry would have died out before humans landed).\n\nNo. 5's dream: he had been talking to his aunt about abos\n\nName of the city: of no significance\n\nLack of new buildings: Port-Mimizon is a city and its population has \nbeen falling. Conversely, though, Frenchman's Landing on Sainte Anne is \ndescribed by Marsch as something like a newly-built shanty town. And \nweather control satellites have been installed on Sainte Anne only in \nthe last decade or two, leading to the replacement of nuclear-powered \nships by sailing ships like those used on Earth. Perhaps the Kafka-esque \nfascism of Sainte Croix is starting to hold it back, even if the officer \nthinks otherwise.\n\nBite symbolism: I don't consider the bite symbolic\n\nConfusion of identity, both personal and racial: certainly it's a major \ntheme, but in a much more realistic and naturalistic form than you \npropose. Its naturalism, in my opinion, gives it stronger resonances \nwith real-world issues of identity and colonisation than a more \nhighly-coloured confection of parasites and pod people, all delusional \nregarding their true nature." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My life cycle schema makes the narrative you MUST dismiss as a lie and \nfabrication (the murder of the cat, the death of Victor) literally \ntrue and also gives it narrative reason (at least, the slaying of the \ncat).\nYes, we have one plausible means of persecution. I mentioned it \nalready, Gerry - humans on abo. Do you see that below? It's the same \nthing you reiterated. see that there? \"abo incarcerated by humans OR\" \nThat OR implies there are two plausible scenarios given the species we \nhave been introduced to. The first is the first logical conclusion we \ncan come to before we understand the life cycles at work.\nBut your advantage is not an advantage, because then Victor has to be \nCOMPLETELY DELUSIONAL about his own death and the murder of the cat, \nvery very concrete matters. Either way, delusion ensues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, Victor is not delusional about his death; he is simply lying about \nit. He is now pretending to be Marsch, so he must make his old self \ndisappear lest he be caught and perhaps hanged for murder - at best he \nwill be cast out of human society. He invents a tale and writes it in \nMarsch's notebook, in case someone cares to look. As for the cat, I \nsimply don't know how she died; maybe he broke her neck as he wrote, \nmaybe Marsch killled her and then he killed Marsch. (Why would Victor \nbreak her neck? As a symbol of his attempt to leave behind his abo life \nand live henceforth as a human. That is my pet theory regarding the \ndeath of the cat, but I accept that there is no particular evidence for it.)\n\n\"I simply had to make my voice like his and look older\". Talking about \nhis mother in the cell. The writing in the school composition book and \nin the last part of Marsch's notebook. Green eyes. It is evidently \nVictor in the cell, and he has become Marsch by means of imitation and \nimposture, not by some sort of infection process mediated by the cat, a \nprocess which is never postulated in the story (while we are repeatedly \ninformed that the abos are capable of imitation).\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-25T00:20:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "<53FA519B.7050706@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cool, you can believe whatever you want. If you want to view the final\nscenes as outright lies that's fine, but there are textual hints that\nexplain them as something beyond lies. Certainly Wolfe wanted Victor's\nreplacement of Marsch to look like the solution, but I think it fails to\nexplain many things that are lurking in the background. I am convinced of\nmy reading; you are convinced of yours. Yes, abos imitate. No, Marsch\nisn't really Victor, nor an abo. The switching of personalities via a bite\nIS postulated in the story via \"A Story\" when Sandwalker and Eastwind\nbecome \"confused\" after a bite and the survivor's arm hurts, but you don't\nread it that way so that's cool too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 24/08/2014 19:58, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have to explain away the death of the cat, the death of the boy, the\npresence of two alien species, the presence of Veil's hypothesis, believe\nthat number five dreams of abos by coincidence the day after he meets his\naunt, the name of the city, the weird lack of new buildings in the last 140\nyears ... prophylactic has a nice double meaning, I admit, but the bite of\nthe abo that switches Eastwind and Sandwalker symbolizes all that confusion\nof indentity as well - Easwind, Sandwalker, the abos, the shadow children,\nthe humans - they are all confused about who they are, and if that\nconfusion ISN'T in the text, you haven't been reading the same book. The\nmain cast outside of a story are confused about who they are as well. The\nstory is about being confused about who you are. But if we know the life\ncycle of the abos and their imitative properties, a street named after\nlarva and mention of at least one of the species being long and living\nbetween the branches of trees actually resonates a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My answers:\n\nCat: unknown causes, though Victor said he broke its neck, maybe true\n\nDeath of the boy: a lie, it was Marsch who died\n\nPresence of two alien species: not postulated by me (the Shadow Children\nare degenerate humans).\n\nVeil's Hypothesis: wrong (and in fact the aunt made another great point\nagainst it, which is that a species able to mimic well enough to lose the\npower of mimicry would have died out before humans landed).\n\nNo. 5's dream: he had been talking to his aunt about abos\n\nName of the city: of no significance\n\nLack of new buildings: Port-Mimizon is a city and its population has been\nfalling. Conversely, though, Frenchman's Landing on Sainte Anne is\ndescribed by Marsch as something like a newly-built shanty town. And\nweather control satellites have been installed on Sainte Anne only in the\nlast decade or two, leading to the replacement of nuclear-powered ships by\nsailing ships like those used on Earth. Perhaps the Kafka-esque fascism of\nSainte Croix is starting to hold it back, even if the officer thinks\notherwise.\n\nBite symbolism: I don't consider the bite symbolic\n\nConfusion of identity, both personal and racial: certainly it's a major\ntheme, but in a much more realistic and naturalistic form than you\npropose. Its naturalism, in my opinion, gives it stronger resonances with\nreal-world issues of identity and colonisation than a more highly-coloured\nconfection of parasites and pod people, all delusional regarding their true\nnature.\n\n\n My life cycle schema makes the narrative you MUST dismiss as a lie and\nfabrication (the murder of the cat, the death of Victor) literally true and\nalso gives it narrative reason (at least, the slaying of the cat)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes, we have one plausible means of persecution. I mentioned it already,\nGerry - humans on abo. Do you see that below? It's the same thing you\nreiterated. see that there? \"abo incarcerated by humans OR\" That OR\nimplies there are two plausible scenarios given the species we have been\nintroduced to. The first is the first logical conclusion we can come to\nbefore we understand the life cycles at work.\nBut your advantage is not an advantage, because then Victor has to be\nCOMPLETELY DELUSIONAL about his own death and the murder of the cat, very\nvery concrete matters. Either way, delusion ensues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, Victor is not delusional about his death; he is simply lying about\nit. He is now pretending to be Marsch, so he must make his old self\ndisappear lest he be caught and perhaps hanged for murder - at best he will\nbe cast out of human society. He invents a tale and writes it in Marsch's\nnotebook, in case someone cares to look. As for the cat, I simply don't\nknow how she died; maybe he broke her neck as he wrote, maybe Marsch\nkillled her and then he killed Marsch. (Why would Victor break her neck?\nAs a symbol of his attempt to leave behind his abo life and live henceforth\nas a human. That is my pet theory regarding the death of the cat, but I\naccept that there is no particular evidence for it.)\n\n\"I simply had to make my voice like his and look older\". Talking about\nhis mother in the cell. The writing in the school composition book and in\nthe last part of Marsch's notebook. Green eyes. It is evidently Victor in\nthe cell, and he has become Marsch by means of imitation and imposture, not\nby some sort of infection process mediated by the cat, a process which is\nnever postulated in the story (while we are repeatedly informed that the\nabos are capable of imitation).\n\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-25T00:23:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HX", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And no, you don't need to come back with the drug saliva bit confusing the\nguy and having nothing to do with microorganisms. Like I said, believe\nwhatever you want." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 5:20 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nCool, you can believe whatever you want. If you want to view the final\nscenes as outright lies that's fine, but there are textual hints that\nexplain them as something beyond lies. Certainly Wolfe wanted Victor's\nreplacement of Marsch to look like the solution, but I think it fails to\nexplain many things that are lurking in the background. I am convinced of\nmy reading; you are convinced of yours. Yes, abos imitate. No, Marsch\nisn't really Victor, nor an abo. The switching of personalities via a bite\nIS postulated in the story via \"A Story\" when Sandwalker and Eastwind\nbecome \"confused\" after a bite and the survivor's arm hurts, but you don't\nread it that way so that's cool too." } ] } ] }