Subject: (urth) 5HX

From: Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 13:29:51 +0000

>Gerry Quinn: The diary has more than one function.  He is, in a sense, trying to 
>convince himself he is human, as Wolfe has noted.  But one does not trty 
>to convince oneself of something one believes to be true.

You recognize that Victor is trying to convince himself he is human but do not

recognize that Victor often succeeds in doing so.

When Marsch first meets Victor he notes Victor's dark hair, green eyes and pale

skill. Physical characteristics Marsch himself possesses. The imitation had 

started immediately.

Victor starts the adventure unable even to open a jar according to his father.

But he gets progressively better with tools, the longer he spends with Marsch.

His speech also becomes progressively better and Marsch eventually recognizes

his is copying Marsch's own speech patterns.

It is clear (to me and others) that during the course of the VRT story that 

the narrator is having an identity crisis. He truly doesn't know who he is.

In one entry he is speaking as Marsch, in another he is discussing his 

shape-shifting mother. This would not happen if Victor's actions were entirely

a conscious attempt to pretend he is Marsch.

>As for whether he killed Marsch or Marsch met with an accident, we are 
>not actually told.  Possibly there was an altercation initiated by 
>Marsch in which Marsch got killed.

We are not "actually told" much of anything. That's kind of the point of this

story. But since "the boy" (Marsch really) was killed right after Marsch

had shot the cat (which is implied to have been a shapeshifting lover to 

Victor), and because the boy was becoming proficient with a gun, we are given

both the means and motive for Victor to have killed Marsch.

>All we know is that Marsch did not return from the wilderness, while Victor did.

We do not "know" this, if knowledge is bestowed upon the reader only by what is

"actually told", then Victor replacing Marsch is merely a deduction which can be made. 

And, as I noted in a previous post, there are some very devoted and skeptical Wolfe

fans who DID find this replacement to be a false assumption until Wolfe revealed

it to be true in an interview.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 15:22:18 +0000

> recognize that Victor often succeeds in doing so.
I don't see anywhere it is indicated that he outright believes he is 
factually the original Marsch.
> skill. Physical characteristics Marsch himself possesses. The imitation had

No.  We are never told of Marsch's appearance, but from his references 
to Victor's particular characteristics without any comment as to his 
own, we may surely infer that they were different.

If you are thinking of Marsch's first visit to Saltimbanque Street, that 
was Victor.  The original Marsch never visited Sainte Croix.

> his is copying Marsch's own speech patterns.
I see no indication that he gets better.  From the start he is skillful 
at building fires, pitching tents, etc.  He learned to write at school 
with great difficulty (he spends some time reminiscing on the matter in 
his cell).  Certainly he learns something of anthropology and Marsch's 
speech patterns as time goes on.

> a conscious attempt to pretend he is Marsch.
In what entry does he speak as Marsch (not counting the diary entries 
that were actually written by Marsch)?  The closest I could think of is 
when he speaks of long-legged women etc., and on close examination the 
details of events mentioned in this passage stem from his time at the 
University of Roncevaux, which came after Victor replaced the original 
Marsch.

> both the means and motive for Victor to have killed Marsch.

We are told a lot of things which you choose to ignore.  But as to the 
circumstances of the death of Marsch and the cat, we know little, as the 
entries in the notebook after "I think I wuld shoot them both" are in 
Victor's hand, and substantially false.  This includes the story of the 
cat biting Marsch, which may be a total fabrication in order to explain 
the change in handwriting, or may be true.  Victor writes later that he 
broke the cat's neck and laid her at 'the boy's' dead feet,

So, we have Marsch's strangely jealous comment, and then no more from 
Marsch.  He goes back to the camp, and some kind of confrontation 
ensues.  Maybe Victor was waiting for an opportunity, or maybe the 
opportunity created the event.  Maybe Marsch shot the cat, maybe Victor 
killed her as a sacrifice of some kind.  Maybe the cat really did bite 
Marsch and he became sick and Victor killed him.  We are not told the 
details; all we know is that Marsch died and Victor took his place.

> "actually told", then Victor replacing Marsch is merely a deduction which can be made.
It is a deduction for which the evidence is more than ample, from the 
clear indication that the final journal entries are written in Victor's 
(bad) hand, to the prisoner's memories of his mother on Sainte Anne, to 
his green aboriginal eyes.

> it to be true in an interview. 		 	   		

Perhaps indicating that devotion and scepticism can be carried to excess.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:26:52 +0000

Marsch the infected kills his own eventual killer, the cat, who had an
empathetic association with Victor (and passed this to Marsch), and places
the cat at Victor's dead feet.  That stuff happened just as Wolfe wrote it,
no fabrication necessary. The boy fell to his death, VRT is "variance
reduction techniques".

The bite is definitely not a fabrication, but you guys can believe whatever
you want.  There's actually extremely little fabrication in Fifth Head of
Cerberus, but no overt explanation of mechanisms.

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> wrote:

> No.  We are never told of Marsch's appearance, but from his references to
> Victor's particular characteristics without any comment as to his own, we
> may surely infer that they were different.
>
> I see no indication that he gets better.  From the start he is skillful at
> building fires, pitching tents, etc.  He learned to write at school with
> great difficulty (he spends some time reminiscing on the matter in his
> cell).  Certainly he learns something of anthropology and Marsch's speech
> patterns as time goes on.
>
>
> In what entry does he speak as Marsch (not counting the diary entries that
> were actually written by Marsch)?  The closest I could think of is when he
> speaks of long-legged women etc., and on close examination the details of
> events mentioned in this passage stem from his time at the University of
> Roncevaux, which came after Victor replaced the original Marsch.
>
>
>
>
> Victor's hand, and substantially false.  This includes the story of the cat
> biting Marsch, which may be a total fabrication in order to explain the
> change in handwriting, or may be true.  Victor writes later that he broke
> the cat's neck and laid her at 'the boy's' dead feet,
>
> Marsch.  He goes back to the camp, and some kind of confrontation ensues.
> Maybe Victor was waiting for an opportunity, or maybe the opportunity
> created the event.  Maybe Marsch shot the cat, maybe Victor killed her as a
> sacrifice of some kind.  Maybe the cat really did bite Marsch and he became
> sick and Victor killed him.  We are not told the details; all we know is
> that Marsch died and Victor took his place.
>
>
>
> (bad) hand, to the prisoner's memories of his mother on Sainte Anne, to his
> green aboriginal eyes.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 16:52:10 +0000

It takes about three days for Marsch to be reborn on Easter Sunday from the
bite as something different - his body undergoes a harrowing over that
period of time.  The existence of two alien races is simple: it creates a
means for "Other" to be persecuted -  abo incarcerated by humans or shadow
child incarcerated by abos who believe themselves to be human. Abo
incarcerated by abo makes no sense. The officer making a slave open the
document with a knife and then showering prophylactically shows
a strange unhandiness and a fear of saliva. This multiplication of species
must serve a narrative purpose.  The switch of Sandwalker to Eastwind and
the human landers suddenly not knowing what open hands mean shows the
climactic switch when humans are replaced by abos who now believe
themselves to be humans.  Why bring up Liev's postulate at all if it isn't
even a possibility?  It is present in the text.  So are meta statements
like "don't ask me how big a child is".  The details of A Story honestly
don't make much sense unless they are pointing to a symbolic representation
of Marsch's fate to elucidate the two life cycles at work - larval, adult,
sessile carapace/tree and an infectious empathic one.

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:26 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

> The bite is definitely not a fabrication, but you guys can believe
> whatever you want.  There's actually extremely little fabrication in Fifth
> Head of Cerberus, but no overt explanation of mechanisms.
>
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:28:21 +0000

On 24/08/2014 17:52, Marc Aramini wrote:
> It takes about three days for Marsch to be reborn on Easter Sunday 
> from the bite as something different - his body undergoes a harrowing 
> over that period of time.  The existence of two alien races is simple: 
> it creates a means for "Other" to be persecuted -  abo incarcerated by 
> humans or shadow child incarcerated by abos who believe themselves to 
> be human. Abo incarcerated by abo makes no sense. The officer making a 
> slave open the document with a knife and then showering 
> prophylactically shows a strange unhandiness and a fear of saliva. 
> This multiplication of species must serve a narrative purpose.  The 
> switch of Sandwalker to Eastwind and the human landers suddenly not 
> knowing what open hands mean shows the climactic switch when humans 
> are replaced by abos who now believe themselves to be humans.  Why 
> bring up Liev's postulate at all if it isn't even a possibility?  It 
> is present in the text.  So are meta statements like "don't ask me how 
> big a child is".  The details of A Story honestly don't make much 
> sense unless they are pointing to a symbolic representation of 
> Marsch's fate to elucidate the two life cycles at work - larval, 
> adult, sessile carapace/tree and an infectious empathic one.
>

We *have* a means for 'Other' to be persecuted: abos persecuted by 
humans (and of course plenty of intra-human persecution, particularly on 
Sainte Croix).

Why can't the officer simply fear spirochaetes of the ordinary kind?  He 
shares the girl with the other officers.  If people on Sainte Croix are 
terrified of being infected by alien mind-controlling parasites (or by 
the wrong sort of alien mind-controlling parasites) why don't we hear 
more about it than a passing reference to an officer who likes to wash 
after sex?

The French landers hold up open hands - it is Sandwalker who doesn't 
understand the significance because his people don't use weapons.

The major advantage of the interpretation, boring as it might seem, in 
which nearly everyone in normal society  (now) is human apart from a few 
abos who slip under the radar, is that no character in any of the three 
novellas is required to be completely delusial about concrete matters.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 18:58:28 +0000

You have to explain away the death of the cat, the death of the boy, the
presence of two alien species, the presence of Veil's hypothesis, believe
that number five dreams of abos by coincidence the day after he meets his
aunt, the name of the city, the weird lack of new buildings in the last 140
years ... prophylactic has a nice double meaning, I admit, but the bite of
the abo that switches Eastwind and Sandwalker symbolizes all that confusion
of indentity as well - Easwind, Sandwalker, the abos, the shadow children,
the humans - they are all confused about who they are, and if that
confusion ISN'T in the text, you haven't been reading the same book.  The
main cast outside of a story are confused about who they are as well.  The
story is about being confused about who you are.  But if we know the life
cycle of the abos and their imitative properties, a street named after
larva and mention of at least one of the species being long and living
between the branches of trees actually resonates a bit.

My life cycle schema makes the narrative you MUST dismiss as a lie and
fabrication (the murder of the cat, the death of Victor) literally true and
also gives it narrative reason (at least, the slaying of the cat).

Yes, we have one plausible means of persecution. I mentioned it already,
Gerry - humans on abo.  Do you see that below?  It's the same thing you
reiterated. see that there?  "abo incarcerated by humans OR" That OR
implies there are two plausible scenarios given the species we have been
introduced to. The first is the first logical conclusion we can come to
before we understand the life cycles at work.

But your advantage is not an advantage, because then Victor has to be
COMPLETELY DELUSIONAL about his own death and the murder of the cat, very
very concrete matters.  Either way, delusion ensues.
On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> wrote:

>> It takes about three days for Marsch to be reborn on Easter Sunday from
>> the bite as something different - his body undergoes a harrowing over that
>> document with a knife and then showering prophylactically shows a strange
>> unhandiness and a fear of saliva. This multiplication of species must serve
>> a narrative purpose.  The switch of Sandwalker to Eastwind and the human
>> landers suddenly not knowing what open hands mean shows the climactic
>> switch when humans are replaced by abos who now believe themselves to be
>> humans.  Why bring up Liev's postulate at all if it isn't even a
>> possibility?  It is present in the text.  So are meta statements like
>> "don't ask me how big a child is".  The details of A Story honestly don't
>> make much sense unless they are pointing to a symbolic representation of
>> Marsch's fate to elucidate the two life cycles at work - larval, adult,
> We *have* a means for 'Other' to be persecuted: abos persecuted by humans
> (and of course plenty of intra-human persecution, particularly on Sainte
> Croix).
>
> terrified of being infected by alien mind-controlling parasites (or by the
> wrong sort of alien mind-controlling parasites) why don't we hear more
> about it than a passing reference to an officer who likes to wash after sex?
>
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2014 20:56:59 +0000

On 24/08/2014 19:58, Marc Aramini wrote:
> You have to explain away the death of the cat, the death of the boy, 
> the presence of two alien species, the presence of Veil's hypothesis, 
> believe that number five dreams of abos by coincidence the day after 
> he meets his aunt, the name of the city, the weird lack of new 
> buildings in the last 140 years ... prophylactic has a nice double 
> meaning, I admit, but the bite of the abo that switches Eastwind and 
> Sandwalker symbolizes all that confusion of indentity as well - 
> Easwind, Sandwalker, the abos, the shadow children, the humans - they 
> are all confused about who they are, and if that confusion ISN'T in 
> the text, you haven't been reading the same book.  The main cast 
> outside of a story are confused about who they are as well.  The story 
> is about being confused about who you are.  But if we know the life 
My answers:

Cat: unknown causes, though Victor said he broke its neck, maybe true

Death of the boy: a lie, it was Marsch who died

Presence of two alien species: not postulated by me (the Shadow Children 
are degenerate humans).

Veil's Hypothesis: wrong (and in fact the aunt made another great point 
against it, which is that a species able to mimic well enough to lose 
the power of mimicry would have died out before humans landed).

No. 5's dream: he had been talking to his aunt about abos

Name of the city: of no significance

Lack of new buildings: Port-Mimizon is a city and its population has 
been falling.  Conversely, though, Frenchman's Landing on Sainte Anne is 
described by Marsch as something like a newly-built shanty town. And 
weather control satellites have been installed on Sainte Anne only in 
the last decade or two, leading to the replacement of nuclear-powered 
ships by sailing ships like those used on Earth. Perhaps the Kafka-esque 
fascism of Sainte Croix is starting to hold it back, even if the officer 
thinks otherwise.

Bite symbolism: I don't consider the bite symbolic

Confusion of identity, both personal and racial: certainly it's a major 
theme, but in a much more realistic and naturalistic form than you 
propose.  Its naturalism, in my opinion, gives it stronger resonances 
with real-world issues of identity and colonisation than a more 
highly-coloured confection of parasites and pod people, all delusional 
regarding their true nature.

> fabrication (the murder of the cat, the death of Victor) literally 
> true and also gives it narrative reason (at least, the slaying of the 
> cat).
> Yes, we have one plausible means of persecution. I mentioned it 
> already, Gerry - humans on abo.  Do you see that below?  It's the same 
> thing you reiterated. see that there?  "abo incarcerated by humans OR" 
> That OR implies there are two plausible scenarios given the species we 
> have been introduced to. The first is the first logical conclusion we 
> can come to before we understand the life cycles at work.
> COMPLETELY DELUSIONAL about his own death and the murder of the cat, 
> very very concrete matters.  Either way, delusion ensues.

No, Victor is not delusional about his death; he is simply lying about 
it.  He is now pretending to be Marsch, so he must make his old self 
disappear lest he be caught and perhaps hanged for murder - at best he 
will be cast out of human society.  He invents a tale and writes it in 
Marsch's notebook, in case someone cares to look.  As for the cat, I 
simply don't know how she died; maybe he broke her neck as he wrote, 
maybe Marsch killled her and then he killed Marsch.  (Why would Victor 
break her neck?  As a symbol of his attempt to leave behind his abo life 
and live henceforth as a human.  That is my pet theory regarding the 
death of the cat, but I accept that there is no particular evidence for it.)

"I simply had to make my voice like his and look older".  Talking about 
his mother in the cell.  The writing in the school composition book and 
in the last part of Marsch's notebook.  Green eyes.  It is evidently 
Victor in the cell, and he has become Marsch by means of imitation and 
imposture, not by some sort of infection process mediated by the cat, a 
process which is never postulated in the story (while we are repeatedly 
informed that the abos are capable of imitation).

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 00:20:32 +0000

Cool, you can believe whatever you want.  If you want to view the final
scenes as outright lies that's fine, but there are textual hints that
explain them as something beyond lies.  Certainly Wolfe wanted Victor's
replacement of Marsch to look like the solution, but I think it fails to
explain many things that are lurking in the background. I am convinced of
my reading; you are convinced of yours. Yes, abos imitate.  No, Marsch
isn't really Victor, nor an abo. The switching of personalities via a bite
IS postulated in the story via "A Story" when Sandwalker and Eastwind
become "confused" after a bite and the survivor's arm hurts, but you don't
read it that way so that's cool too.

On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Gerry Quinn <gerry at bindweed.com> wrote:

> against it, which is that a species able to mimic well enough to lose the
> power of mimicry would have died out before humans landed).
>
> Lack of new buildings: Port-Mimizon is a city and its population has been
> falling.  Conversely, though, Frenchman's Landing on Sainte Anne is
> weather control satellites have been installed on Sainte Anne only in the
> last decade or two, leading to the replacement of nuclear-powered ships by
> sailing ships like those used on Earth. Perhaps the Kafka-esque fascism of
> Sainte Croix is starting to hold it back, even if the officer thinks
> otherwise.
>
> propose.  Its naturalism, in my opinion, gives it stronger resonances with
> real-world issues of identity and colonisation than a more highly-coloured
> confection of parasites and pod people, all delusional regarding their true
> nature.
>
>
> disappear lest he be caught and perhaps hanged for murder - at best he will
> be cast out of human society.  He invents a tale and writes it in Marsch's
> notebook, in case someone cares to look.  As for the cat, I simply don't
> know how she died; maybe he broke her neck as he wrote, maybe Marsch
> killled her and then he killed Marsch.  (Why would Victor break her neck?
> As a symbol of his attempt to leave behind his abo life and live henceforth
> as a human.  That is my pet theory regarding the death of the cat, but I
> accept that there is no particular evidence for it.)
>
> his mother in the cell.  The writing in the school composition book and in
> the last part of Marsch's notebook.  Green eyes.  It is evidently Victor in
> the cell, and he has become Marsch by means of imitation and imposture, not
> by some sort of infection process mediated by the cat, a process which is
> never postulated in the story (while we are repeatedly informed that the
> abos are capable of imitation).
>
>
> - Gerry Quinn
>
>
>
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From: Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2014 00:23:15 +0000

And no, you don't need to come back with the drug saliva bit confusing the
guy and having nothing to do with microorganisms.  Like I said, believe
whatever you want.

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