{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6643", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6643, "subject": "Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2014-08-24T14:29:43+00:00", "last": "2014-08-24T16:35:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "marcobadie at katamail.com", "address": "marcobadie at katamail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T14:29:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I repost my previous post, revised. Sorry, I made a mess." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nI don't think Vodalus is important enough with his false coin\nto warrant a confirmation before sev gets his diabolical Eucharist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nSeverian was arguably baptised, confirmed and \nreceived the Eucharist of the Church of Abaia/Vodalus as you say - but \nin the end he abjured that faith..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, of course, this is the essential point (and I have missed it in my post): \nthe power bestowed to Severian is so measureless that the sacraments administered by Abaia \nand his followers are irrelevant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini wrote:\nI don't think the imagery at the start is simply baptism imagery, though certianly \nthat might be one part of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The meaning of baptism is rebirth (from sin). \nThe resurrection of Severian from water represents his admission \nin the ranks of the followers of Abaia. At this baptism the Undine is his godmother.\n\nThis is Severian's rambling on the power of symbols (the coin with the face of Autarch): \n\"We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch.\"\nAt confirmation Catholics confirm the pledge of allegiance to Christ made at baptism \nby their godparents, becoming ?soldier of Christ\"; and Severian confirms his baptism \n declaring himself a vodalarius, a ?soldier of Vodalus\". \n The choice is sealed by the symbolic power of a false chrisos. \n Like for the Gild of Torturers, Severian will break this oath of allegiance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Usually confirmation is fully adult - I wouldn't expect it right after the\nbaptism unless we had an adult convert. ( Wolfe may have been, BUT ...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Personally, nine years old, I receveid Confirmation Thursday and First Eucharist next Sunday. \nThis was the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, at the least in Italy; today also, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman - \nmight she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard \nher corpse that night?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hildegrin is searching for Severian, with him are Vodalus and Thea, the leaders of the insurgency. Why Hildegrin would be interested in a peasant's woman?\nMoreover, the necropolis is organised by social rank: higher there are the masoleums of the optimates, lower the burial mounds of peasants and labourers. Severian is watching the scene behind a calcedony angel, the grave of the dark-haired woman is the grave of an armigette, at least.\n\nThanks for your comments.\n\nMarco Cecchini" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FA0B48.4030505@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T15:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 24/08/2014 15:29, marcobadie at katamail.com wrote:\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not convinced by the connection between Severian and the woman -\nmight she not simply be the mother of the peasant who wanted to guard\nher corpse that night?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hildegrin is searching for Severian, with him are Vodalus and Thea, the leaders of the insurgency. Why Hildegrin would be interested in a peasant's woman?\nMoreover, the necropolis is organised by social rank: higher there are the masoleums of the optimates, lower the burial mounds of peasants and labourers. Severian is watching the scene behind a calcedony angel, the grave of the dark-haired woman is the grave of an armigette, at least." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \"We're the volunteers,\" one of the others said. \"We\n come to protect our own dead.\"\n\nBut then of course while we saw a peasant, we did not see the man who \nwas going to watch over his mother.\n\n A man who had not spoken before said, \"I'm going to\n watch over my mother. We've wasted too much time\n already. They could have her a league off by now.\"\n\nAnd they split up and went in several directions, Presumably they came \nfrom a variety of social classes. All seemed to fear, correctly or not, \nthat their kins' graves might be robbed. And indeed, perhaps Vodalus \ndeliberately takes corpses from various walks of society.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T16:29:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:29 AM, marcobadie at katamail.com <\nmarcobadie at katamail.com> wrote:\n\nPersonally, nine years old, I receveid Confirmation Thursday and First\nEucharist next Sunday.\nThis was the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, at the least in\nItaly; today also, I think.\n\nInteresting. I received communion at about ten or eleven, confirmation at\n16. I always understood it as a fully adult acceptance of the things which\nwere rather forced upon us as children." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-24T16:35:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Baptism and Confirmation: Shadow of the Torturer", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 9:29 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n\n\n On Sun, Aug 24, 2014 at 7:29 AM, marcobadie at katamail.com <\nmarcobadie at katamail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Personally, nine years old, I receveid Confirmation Thursday and First\nEucharist next Sunday.\nThis was the tradition of the Roman Catholic Church, at the least in\nItaly; today also, I think.\n\nInteresting. I received communion at about ten or eleven, confirmation\nat 16. I always understood it as a fully adult acceptance of the things\nwhich were rather forced upon us as children." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well well well ... looks like I was taught a \"false theology\" according to\nthis article.\n\nhttp://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=13621\n\nIn America, however, I am pretty sure we have done confirmation a bit after\ncommunion for a good while. This is one of those things I should have\nknown but didn't. It's all moot as far as the procees Gene underwent,\nhowever - he came to the church as an adult." } ] } ] }