{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6648", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6648, "subject": "Short Story 110: The Cat", "messages": 17, "voices": 5, "first": "2014-08-26T17:45:51+00:00", "last": "2014-08-27T15:27:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T17:45:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "“The Cat” first appeared in the 1983 World Fantasy Convention program book\nand is reprinted in *Endangered Species*.\n\nSUMMARY:\n\nIn the fifth year of Severian’s reign, Odilo, who encountered Severian near\nthe antechamber in *Claw of the Conciliator *and later serves as steward\nunder him, listens to stories being told by cooks and servants on\nHallowmass Eve (called “the full of the Spading Moon”) as he goes to the\nkitchen to eat, kicking the chief cook out of his seat. Odilo’s father was\nthe same age as the Chatelaine Sancha, whom he then recalls as he thinks of\na story to write down for posterity, inspired by the scary Halloween tales\nof the kitchen.\n\nHe describes Inire's proclivity for the young, and says no doubt that\nSancha's maturity at a young age attracted him. Inire speaks to children he\ndoes not know, and “if her face and her answers please him, he may pause in\nthe conduct of great affairs to tell her some tale of the worlds beyond\nDis” which the child will forget at adulthood. If he has no time, Inire\nwill give the child a toy, which women, children, and wise men “call\nmagical.” If Inire comes upon the child a second time and the toy is\ndisplayed as whole, and if, in lieu of a second toy, the child requests a\nstory from Inire, they will become his “particular friend and pupil for so\nlong as she — or more rarely he — may live.”\n\nSancha becomes his friend when she is seven years old, and Odilo's father\nsees them walking together with her cat in her arms. He takes her to his\nspecula, where beings can be materialized from ethereal waves or\n“circumfused to the border of Briah.” Sancha tosses her cat into the circle\nof mirrors. The cat disappears. Inire promises to recover the cat, and soon\nrumors that Sancha is attended by “some fey thing” start. Things are broken\nand the bodies of sparrows presented to her. A scandal instigated by\nSancha's mistress, the Chatelaine Leocadia, between the nearly thirty year\nold Lomer and the fourteen year old Sancha ruins her reputation and gets\nhim sentenced to death, but his mistress, the Chatelaine Nympha, intercedes\non his behalf. Sancha becomes a Chatelaine when her father wills her an\nestate in the south and she disappears for 50 years from the House\nAbsolute, wedding the heir of Fors.\n\nShe returns as an old, bent, and hook-nosed woman, dissatisfied with her\ndaughter-in-law, who calls her a witch. Her helper, Aude, is resentful that\nno one told her Sancha had a pet. Her spectral cat was even rumored to walk\nupon the keyboard of an electronic organ. Odilo attends her when Sancha lay\ndying. A dark paw print appears on her white bedspread, and beside it “a\nthing not unlike a doll.” When it is pricked, it bleeds. Father Inire\ninstructed that the figure be buried with Sancha, and Odilo orders the\nbedspread sent to the Chatelaine Leocadia, who had grown very dim of sight.\n“She has since gone bline, and yet her maids report that she sees the cat,\nwhich stalks her in her dreams. It is not well for those of high station to\ninvolve the servants of their enemies in their quarrels.”\n\nCOMMENTARY: The story is first and foremost a Halloween tale involving\nprominent and minor characters from *Book of the New Sun*. The old woman\nwith a cat which has been transported to a different dimension and long\noutlives its normal life span becomes a witch consorting with evil astral\nspirits in scandal. In a way, the tale is justice for Lomer, the servant of\nLeocadia's enemy, tinged with irony from start to finish. The rather rotund\nand probably lazy Odilo forces the chief cook from his chair, and will\nlater tell a tale to his son (the Odilo who appears on a boat with Severian\nat the end of *The Urth of the New Sun* and survives the deluge) in which\nhe boldly confronts the fierce torturer who appears in the halls of the\nHouse Absolute. Severian’s version of the story is of a rather obsequious\nand polite but fearful Steward who cooperates with him, but the Odilo who\nnarrates “The Cat” is never aware that the torturer he saw is the Autarch\nhe serves. Lomer still spent his entire life waiting in the antechamber for\nhis case to be heard by the Autarch — so while he was spared death, his\npunishment was a life sentence of waiting.\n\nSancha’s character is morally ambiguous — with the “face of a peri and eyes\nthat were always laughing”, she becomes one of Inire’s favorites because of\nher hunger for knowledge rather than greed for toys, but her lack of regard\nfor anything save herself is at times callous. When she sees the specula of\nInire, which could “circumfuse” anything which enters them to the borders\nof Briah, “Then Sancha, doubtless thinking it a toy, cast her cat into the\ncircle.” Aude, the servant Odilo sets up for Sancha in her old age when she\nreturns from her private estate, says “she believed the cat the only\ncreature Sancha was ever to love, beyond herself”. (A peri is a Persian\nspirit somewhere between angels and truly evil spirits — in earlier sources\nthey were malignant, denied paradise until a suitable penance was\nperformed, but in some tales are benevolent — female jinn are known as Peri\nif they are good).\n\nThe scandal between Lomer and Sancha ruin her reputation and force her to\nthe South, where she becomes regarded as a strange old witch who has\ncongress with “diakka” (a term used by the spiritualist Andrew Davis to\ndenote amoral astral spooks). In her old age, Sancha returns to the House\nAbsolute, bent and with a prominent hooklike nose that matches the\ndescription of Thecla’s memories, angered that her daughter-in-law called\nher a *gligua*, a word for the mystery men of the Araucanian Indians of\nChile who were said to divine the future and have control over rain,\ndiseases, and even worms (Molina 88). (The use of this particular term also\nestablishes a pretty good bit of linguistic evidence that Nessus is in\nSouth America, given Chile's location at the extreme southern coast).\n\nThe back story for this short tale is provided in *The Claw of the\nConciliator.* Lomer’s version of the story, told to Severian, agrees fairly\nwell with the one we get in “The Cat”:\n\n?I am here by the malice of the Chatelaine Leocadia. I was senescahal to\nher rival the Chatelaine Nympha, and when she brought me here to the House\nAbsolute with her in order that we might review the accounts of the estate\nwhile she attended the rites of the Philomath Phocas, the Chatelaine\nLeocadia entrapped me by the aid of Sancha. — They say she is dead now. But\nin my days she was a fine, healthy young woman. The Chatelaine Leocadia\npersuaded her to it, then caused us to be discovered, as Sancha knew she\nwould. She was but fourteen, and no crime was charged to her. We had done\nnothing in any case; she had only begun to undress me.\n\nThecla’s memories come to the fore, and Sev calls Sancha the Dowager of\nFors.\n\n“The Cat” reveals that “the Chatelaine Leocadia, who was said to have\nconcocted the affair to injure Nympha, suffered nothing.” At least, she\ndoes not suffer until Odilo sends the bedspread under which Sancha died to\nher ancient and blind mistress.\n\nThe story is also important in establishing the name of the Autarch\nfifty-five years before Severian ascends to the throne? Appian — though\nwhether this is actually the Autarch Severian succeeds is doubtful, for\nthere is no evidence that his reign lasted quite that long.\n\nThis tale is also intimately related to Inire's treatment of Domnina,\nThecla's friend, related in Chapter 20 of *The Shadow of the Torturer*,\n“Father Inire's Mirrors”. (Incidentally, Severian recalls it while walking\nwith Agia in the Botanic Gardens — no doubt the properties of the glass and\nthe light entering the Gardens bears a relationship to the mirrors of Inire\nin their bending of space and perhaps time).\n\nIn Thecla's story, she and her thirteen year old friend Domnina play\nbetween Father Inire's two great mirrors, and move candelabra to opposite\nends of them. Inire appears and warns them there is “an imp who waits in\nsilvered glass and creeps into the eyes of those who look into it.” Thecla\nperceives this as an injunction against vanity, but Domnina asks if the imp\nis shaped like a tear. Inire indicates that the thing she has seen is\nsomeone else and invites her to return the next day to show her.\n\nWhen Domnina is taken, Thecla plays with her dolls. When Domnina finally\nreturns, her face is said to be as white as those of Thecla's dolls. She\nwas guided through unfamiliar halls to a giant octagonal room painted with\nlabyrinths. Inire steps through one and says that the fish is nearly\ncaught. “You can watch the setting of the hook, and learn by what means his\ngolden scales are to be meshed in our landing net.” She sees a figure in\nthe center of the enclosure moving up and down and from side to side and\nher own form reflected infinitely in the mirrors. She realizes that the\nfish was formed by the convergence of light of the eight mirrors. Here\nInire lectures her on the idea of the Fish and the concept of traveling\nover great distances: “By what means may travel be effected when the point\nof departure is at an astronomical distance from the place of arrival?” He\nsays that the fliers in the air are as to his mirrors as toy fliers are to\nthose real ones, then that that things which move quickly become heavy, and\nare attracted to objects such as Urth more strongly. When these waves are\npositioned in such a way that the wave front is intensified, the light\nleaves the universe and re-enters at another place. “Eventually it will be\na real being, if we do not darken the lamp or shift the mirrors. For a\nreflected image to exist without an object to originate it violates the\nlaws of our universe, an therefore an object will be brought into\nexistence.”\n\nThe presence of the doll which appears at Sancha's death and the imagery of\nDomnina associated with dolls after seeing the mirrors is interesting, but\nit seems more likely that this is the toy Inire gave to Sancha as a child,\none linked especially to her.\n\nLITERARY ALLUSIONS\n\n\nWhen Jonas and Severian are incarcerated in the waiting antechamber of the\nAutarch, Jonas suddenly begins quoting Lewis Caroll’s *Through the Looking\nGlass*: “The White Knight is sliding down the poker.” Lomer’s interminable\nfate of eternal waiting in the antechamber has a kind of dream-like terror,\nand the general feel of Father Inire with his magic mirrors definitely\nevokes Lewis Carroll’s love of little girls and Alice’s passage through her\nmirror. In “The Cat”, we even see a slightly less tangible Chesire Cat,\nthough it is “a gray cat, with many stripes of darker gray” originally.\nInire’s love of young children is a consistent motif throughout *The Book\nof the New Sun*, whether his interest be in Thecla’s friend Domnina or the\nmuch older Sancha.\n\nUNANSWERED QUESTIONS:\n\nWhen Domnina sees herself reflected in *The Shadow of the Torturer *as a\nseries of infinite girls (while Thecla stays to play with her dolls), does\nInire create a toy from those reflected light waves, based on the girls he\nbrings to the mirror? Is the doll that appears when Sancha dies really just\nthe gift he gave to her when she was a young child, and if so, is it based\non her? Did she toss it into the mirrors with her cat?\n\nCONNECTION WITH OTHER WORKS:\n\nUnlike “The Map”, “The Cat” creates no continuity errors and casts Lewis\nCarroll and Halloween themes in the science fantasy Urth setting. The\nmetatextual commentary of other Hallowmass stories have some relation to\nother Wolfe stories: “their talk had turned to all manner of ghosts and\nbogeys .. I heard such recounting of larva, lemurs, and the like as would\nterrify every child in the Commonwealth — and make every man in it laugh\nmost heartily.?(See ?Many Mansions” and *The Fifth Head of Cerberus *for\nfurther talk of larva, and the widespread presence of strange primates in *New\nSun* is also a matter of some curiousity). It is intimately tied to its\nsource material in *The Claw of the Conciliator* and consequently to the\nending scenes in *Urth of the New Sun* that feature Odilo.\n\n\n Davis, Andrew Jackson. *The Diakka and Their Earthly Victims, Being an\nExplanation of Much That is False and Repulsive in Spiritualism*. Boston:\nColby and Rich, Banner of Light Publishing House, 1880.\n\nMolina, Abbe Don J. Ignatius. *The Geographical, Natural, and Civil History\nof Chili, Vol. II*. Paternoster Row: Longman, Hurst, Reys, Orme, 1809." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-08-26T18:59:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe presence of the doll which appears at Sancha's death and the imagery of\nDomnina associated with dolls after seeing the mirrors is interesting, but\nit seems more likely that this is the toy Inire gave to Sancha as a child,\none linked especially to her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I found the thing 'not unlike a doll' to be quite mysterious when I\nfirst read it.\n\nI thought that it might be the returned form of the cat, but since it\nwas buried with Sancha and the cat is supposed to be haunting other\npeople, that doesn't work.\n\nThe doll theory has a few problems: 1. we're never told that Sancha\ntook the second, uncommon, path of being given a toy when Inire is too\nbusy, are we? 2. where did the doll go all those years? Sancha tossed\nthe *cat* in, not a hypothetical doll (and carrying both a doll and a\ncat sounds a bit excessive). 3. why did it bleed when pricked? 4. if\nit was a doll, why the odd phrasing 'a thing not unlike a doll'? In\nWolfe, this means 'it looks a bit like but was definitely not a doll,\ncan you figure out what it is?' 5. why bury a doll with Sanca?\n\nThe thing is clearly a homunculus of some sort. Re-reading the story,\nhere is what I think happens: Inire encounters a charming pleasant\nchild who is interested in the wider universe, does not give her a toy\nbut a story, then takes her to show all his gadgets, when she\nimpetuously (as children often do) does something rash and\nill-considered as toss her beloved pet into mortal danger and with it\ngoes her childish innocence and ability to love possibly as a\nsacrifice to enable Inire to retrieve the cat partially as a spiteful\nspirit, with Sancha's lost moral traits returning at the very end as\n'a lovely child just become a woman' and justly buried with her\n(shades of _The Picture of Dorian Gray_; the malign cat goes on to\npersecute Sancha's enemies.\n\nPicking out some important quotes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As every thinking man acknowledges, mighty powers move through this dark universe of Briah, though for the most part hidden from us by its infinite night. Is it not every man's duty to record what little he has glimpsed that may give light to it? And do not such idle tales as I heard by the fire but serve to paint yet blacker that gloom through which we grope?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is quite a black opening and reason for Odilo to record what\nseems like a charming and harmless ghost story. Why is it so sinister?\n(Similar to \"Suzanne Delage\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She was (so my father said) an extraordinarily charming child, with the face of a peri and eyes that were always laughing, darker than most exulted children but so tall that she might have been supposed, at the age of seven or eight, to be a young woman of sixteen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So, to set the scene: Sancha is a very nice child. Odilo's father has\nnothing bad at all to say about her, and she is a lovely child who\nappears to almost be a woman.\n\nShe meets Father Inire, whose attentions are worth having, but like\nmost things worth having, come with risk:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Permit me to say at once that these children have often benefitted from his attention. It is true, perhaps, that they have sometimes suffered for it, but that has been seldom and I think by no means by his wish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The dangers of the mirror system are also mentioned elsewhere:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Thecla's story, she and her thirteen year old friend Domnina play between Father Inire's two great mirrors, and move candelabra to opposite ends of them. Inire appears and warns them there is ?an imp who waits in silvered glass and creeps into the eyes of those who look into it. Thecla perceives this as an injunction against vanity, but Domnina asks if the imp is shaped like a tear. Inire indicates that the thing she has seen is someone else and invites her to return the next day to show her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With the mirrors, you truck with strange powers from out of time and\nspace, whose effects may not always be physical (Lovecraft, anyone?).\nAnd remember Odilo's warning.\n\nInire speaks with her, but seems to not give her a doll, as the\ndescription implies gadgetreey:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "some many-hued toy of the kind that wise men and humble men such as I, and all women and children, call magical...Should he find that the toy remains unbroken" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dolls wouldn't be particularly many-hued, magical, or easily-broken.\nThis description doesn't fit the homunculus at the end, either. In\nparticular, the incident seems to be Inire's *first* meeting with\nSancha, when he has spare time after a long meeting, and Sancha has\nonly her cat with her:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Such a pupil Sancha became, one winter morning when she was of seven years or thereabout and my father much the same. All her replies must have pleased Father Inire; and he was doubtless returning to his apartments in our Hypogeum Apotropaic from some night-long deliberation with the Autarch. He took her with him; and so my father met them, as he often told me, in that white corridor we call the Luminary Way. Even then, when my father was only a child himself, he was struck by the sight of them walking and chatting together, Father Inire bent nearly double, like a gnome in a nursery book, with no more nose than an alouatte; Sancha already towering over him, straight as a sapling, sable of hair and bright of eye, with her cat in her arms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Note again the very positive description of Sancha.)\n\nThings go badly at the end. We don't know exactly what happens after\nthe cat goes into the mirror; Odilo quite explicitly speculates and\nhas no idea what actually happened:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Knowing Father Inire as I have been privileged to know him these many years, I feel certain he must have promised poor Sancha that he would do all that lay in his power to retrieve her pet, and that he must have kept faithfully to that promise" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So what *did* Father Inire do? The two of them must have done\nsomething to summon the spirit. Well, what often happens in order to\ntraffic with and summon dark spirits... You sacrifice something.\n\nOn top of that, the summoned spirit seems pretty malicious:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it became known, and quickly, that the girl Sancha was attended by some fey thing. When she and some friend sat alone at play, a pochette was knocked from a table and broken, or so it was said. On another occasion, a young man who sat conversing with Sancha (who must, I should think, have been somewhat older then) observed the ruffled body of a sparrow lying on the carpet at her feet, though she could scarcely have sat where she did without stepping upon it, had it been present when they began their talk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Every example is negative: destructive of things on tables, or\nlittering dead creatures wantonly slain (pets don't go hungry, and\ncertainly not spectral pets). There is no mention of, for example,\nsleeping on her lap or being petted.\n\nThen Sancha changes, becomes scandalous and argumentative and ugly and\nwithout friends and depending on Father Inire's charity and attracts\ncompany only for the cheap thrill that there may be a ghost:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for Sancha, Aude said she believed the cat the only creature Sancha was ever to love, beyond herself; but that, I think, was spite; and Aude was but a giddypate, who knew the Chatelaine only when she was old. ...They were discovered together in that state which is too easily imagined. Sancha's rank and age equally exempted her from formal punishment; her age and her rank equally ensured that the disrepute would cling to her for life. ...and no one was surprised, my father said, to hear soon after that she had wed the heir of Fors-it was a country family not liable to know much of the gossip of the court, nor apt to care greatly for what it heard, while the Chatelaine was a young woman of some fortune, excellent family, and extraordinary beauty ...she returned and requested a suite in this hypogeum, which Father Inire granted in observance of their old friendship. ...Her back was as bent as Father Inire's, her teeth had been made for her by a provincial ivory-turner, and her nose had become the hooked beak of a carrion bird. For whatever reason, her person now carried a disagreeable odor; she must have been aware of it, for she had ordered fires of sandalwood to counter it. ...Suffice it to say that she had borne several children, that her husband was dead, and that her elder son now directed the family estate. The Chatelaine did not get along well with his wife and had many disagreeable anecdotes to relate of her, of which the worst was that she had once denounced the Chatelaine as a gligua, such being the name the autochthons of the south employ for one who has traffic with diakka, casts spells, and the like. ...As the years passed, the Chatelaine Sancha had little need of birds or marmosets. The scandal was revived by doddering women who recollected it from childhood, and she attracted to herself a host of protegees, the daughters of armigers and exultants, eager to exhibit their tolerance and bathe in a notoriety that was without hazard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She doesn't seem terribly loving of her family, and Aude's comment is\nprobably right - *after* the incident, she could no longer love\nanyone. Something was lost in the incident, and I don't think it was\njust the cat.\n\nThen the finale:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the dying Chatelaine's cry, all turned to look at her. And all saw, as did I, that upon the snowy counterpane [bedspread] covering her withered body there had appeared the dark pawprint of some animal, and beside it a thing not unlike a doll. This was no longer than my hand, and yet it seemed in each detail a lovely child just become a woman. Nor was it of painted wood, or any other substance of which such toys are made; for when the physician pricked it with his lancet, a ruby drop shone forth.\n\nBy the strict instructions of Father Inire, this little figure was interred with the Chatelaine Sancha. Our laundresses having proved incapable of removing the stain left by the creature's paw, I ordered the counterpane sent to the Chatelaine Leocadia, who being of the most advanced age was even then but dim of sight.\n\nShe has since gone blind, and yet her maids report that she sees the cat, which stalks her in her dreams. It is not well for those of high station to involve the servants of their enemies in their quarrels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So as she dies, a silent homunculus reappears with the spirit, Father\nInire (who knows what happened) orders it buried with Sancha and not\notherwise, and the spirit goes on to haunt Sancha's enemy. (Open\nquestion: is it an accident that Odilo sends the haunted bedspread to\nLeocadia, who he noted 'suffered nothing', and closes with moralizing\nagainst Leocadia?)\n\nAt least, this seems to explain everything, puts the key action into\nan explicit lacunae (very Wolfe-like), and indeed justifies Odilo's\notherwise-hyperbolic opening - sacrificing parts of your soul to dark\ncosmic powers to retrieve a pet is indeed something to warn\ninhabitants of the House Absolute against, inasmuch as they live in\nclose proximity to Father Inire & his mirrors." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:19:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds good. I did mean to imply it was something of her lost innocence,\nand of course odilo sends it to leocadia on purpose - he gets revenge for\nlomer and sancha." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 26, 2014, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The presence of the doll which appears at Sancha's death and the imagery\nof\nDomnina associated with dolls after seeing the mirrors is interesting,\nbut\nit seems more likely that this is the toy Inire gave to Sancha as a\nchild,\none linked especially to her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I found the thing 'not unlike a doll' to be quite mysterious when I\nfirst read it.\n\nI thought that it might be the returned form of the cat, but since it\nwas buried with Sancha and the cat is supposed to be haunting other\npeople, that doesn't work.\n\nThe doll theory has a few problems: 1. we're never told that Sancha\ntook the second, uncommon, path of being given a toy when Inire is too\nbusy, are we? 2. where did the doll go all those years? Sancha tossed\nthe *cat* in, not a hypothetical doll (and carrying both a doll and a\ncat sounds a bit excessive). 3. why did it bleed when pricked? 4. if\nit was a doll, why the odd phrasing 'a thing not unlike a doll'? In\nWolfe, this means 'it looks a bit like but was definitely not a doll,\ncan you figure out what it is?' 5. why bury a doll with Sanca?\n\nThe thing is clearly a homunculus of some sort. Re-reading the story,\nhere is what I think happens: Inire encounters a charming pleasant\nchild who is interested in the wider universe, does not give her a toy\nbut a story, then takes her to show all his gadgets, when she\nimpetuously (as children often do) does something rash and\nill-considered as toss her beloved pet into mortal danger and with it\ngoes her childish innocence and ability to love possibly as a\nsacrifice to enable Inire to retrieve the cat partially as a spiteful\nspirit, with Sancha's lost moral traits returning at the very end as\n'a lovely child just become a woman' and justly buried with her\n(shades of _The Picture of Dorian Gray_; the malign cat goes on to\npersecute Sancha's enemies.\n\nPicking out some important quotes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As every thinking man acknowledges, mighty powers move through this dark\nuniverse of Briah, though for the most part hidden from us by its infinite\nnight. Is it not every man's duty to record what little he has glimpsed\nthat may give light to it? And do not such idle tales as I heard by the\nfire but serve to paint yet blacker that gloom through which we grope?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is quite a black opening and reason for Odilo to record what\nseems like a charming and harmless ghost story. Why is it so sinister?\n(Similar to \"Suzanne Delage\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "She was (so my father said) an extraordinarily charming child, with the\nface of a peri and eyes that were always laughing, darker than most exulted\nchildren but so tall that she might have been supposed, at the age of seven\nor eight, to be a young woman of sixteen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, to set the scene: Sancha is a very nice child. Odilo's father has\nnothing bad at all to say about her, and she is a lovely child who\nappears to almost be a woman.\n\nShe meets Father Inire, whose attentions are worth having, but like\nmost things worth having, come with risk:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Permit me to say at once that these children have often benefitted from\nhis attention. It is true, perhaps, that they have sometimes suffered for\nit, but that has been seldom and I think by no means by his wish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The dangers of the mirror system are also mentioned elsewhere:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Thecla's story, she and her thirteen year old friend Domnina play\nbetween Father Inire's two great mirrors, and move candelabra to opposite\nends of them. Inire appears and warns them there is “an imp who waits in\nsilvered glass and creeps into the eyes of those who look into it. Thecla\nperceives this as an injunction against vanity, but Domnina asks if the imp\nis shaped like a tear. Inire indicates that the thing she has seen is\nsomeone else and invites her to return the next day to show her." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With the mirrors, you truck with strange powers from out of time and\nspace, whose effects may not always be physical (Lovecraft, anyone”).\nAnd remember Odilo's warning.\n\nInire speaks with her, but seems to not give her a doll, as the\ndescription implies gadgetreey:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "some many-hued toy of the kind that wise men and humble men such as I,\nand all women and children, call magical...Should he find that the toy\nremains unbroken" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dolls wouldn't be particularly many-hued, magical, or easily-broken.\nThis description doesn't fit the homunculus at the end, either. In\nparticular, the incident seems to be Inire's *first* meeting with\nSancha, when he has spare time after a long meeting, and Sancha has\nonly her cat with her:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Such a pupil Sancha became, one winter morning when she was of seven\nyears or thereabout and my father much the same. All her replies must have\npleased Father Inire; and he was doubtless returning to his apartments in\nour Hypogeum Apotropaic from some night-long deliberation with the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He took her with him; and so my father met them, as he often told me, in\nthat white corridor we call the Luminary Way. Even then, when my father was\nonly a child himself, he was struck by the sight of them walking and\nchatting together, Father Inire bent nearly double, like a gnome in a\nnursery book, with no more nose than an alouatte; Sancha already towering\nover him, straight as a sapling, sable of hair and bright of eye, with her\ncat in her arms.\n\n(Note again the very positive description of Sancha.)\n\nThings go badly at the end. We don't know exactly what happens after\nthe cat goes into the mirror; Odilo quite explicitly speculates and\nhas no idea what actually happened:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Knowing Father Inire as I have been privileged to know him these many\nyears, I feel certain he must have promised poor Sancha that he would do\nall that lay in his power to retrieve her pet, and that he must have kept\nfaithfully to that promise" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So what *did* Father Inire do? The two of them must have done\nsomething to summon the spirit. Well, what often happens in order to\ntraffic with and summon dark spirits... You sacrifice something.\n\nOn top of that, the summoned spirit seems pretty malicious:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So it became known, and quickly, that the girl Sancha was attended by\nsome fey thing. When she and some friend sat alone at play, a pochette was\nknocked from a table and broken, or so it was said. On another occasion, a\nyoung man who sat conversing with Sancha (who must, I should think, have\nbeen somewhat older then) observed the ruffled body of a sparrow lying on\nthe carpet at her feet, though she could scarcely have sat where she did\nwithout stepping upon it, had it been present when they began their talk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Every example is negative: destructive of things on tables, or\nlittering dead creatures wantonly slain (pets don't go hungry, and\ncertainly not spectral pets). There is no mention of, for example,\nsleeping on her lap or being petted.\n\nThen Sancha changes, becomes scandalous and argumentative and ugly and\nwithout friends and depending on Father Inire's charity and attracts\ncompany only for the cheap thrill that there may be a ghost:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As for Sancha, Aude said she believed the cat the only creature Sancha\nwas ever to love, beyond herself; but that, I think, was spite; and Aude\nwas but a giddypate, who knew the Chatelaine only when she was old. ...They\nwere discovered together in that state which is too easily imagined." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sancha's rank and age equally exempted her from formal punishment; her age\nand her rank equally ensured that the disrepute would cling to her for\nlife. ...and no one was surprised, my father said, to hear soon after that\nshe had wed the heir of Fors-it was a country family not liable to know\nmuch of the gossip of the court, nor apt to care greatly for what it heard,\nwhile the Chatelaine was a young woman of some fortune, excellent family,\nand extraordinary beauty ...she returned and requested a suite in this\nhypogeum, which Father Inire granted in observance of their old\nfriendship. ...Her back was as bent as Father Inire's, her teeth had been\nmade for her by a provincial ivory-turner, and her nose had become the\nhooked beak of a carrion bird. For whatever reason, her person now carried\na disagreeable odor; she must have been aware of it, for she had ordered\nfires of sandalwood to counter it. ...Suffice it to say that she had borne\nseveral children, that her husband was dead, and that her elder son now\ndirected the family estate. The Chatelaine did not get along well with his\nwife and had many disagreeable anecdotes to relate of her, of which the\nworst was that she had once denounced the Chatelaine as a gligua, such\nbeing the name the autochthons of the south employ for one who has traffic\nwith diakka, casts spells, and the like. ...As the years passed, the\nChatelaine Sancha had little need of birds or marmosets. The scandal was\nrevived by doddering women who recollected it from childhood, and she\nattracted to herself a host of protegees, the daughters of armigers and\nexultants, eager to exhibit their tolerance and bathe in a notoriety that\nwas without hazard.\n\nShe doesn't seem terribly loving of her family, and Aude's comment is\nprobably right - *after* the incident, she could no longer love\nanyone. Something was lost in the incident, and I don't think it was\njust the cat.\n\nThen the finale:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At the dying Chatelaine's cry, all turned to look at her. And all saw,\nas did I, that upon the snowy counterpane [bedspread] covering her withered\nbody there had appeared the dark pawprint of some animal, and beside it a\nthing not unlike a doll. This was no longer than my hand, and yet it seemed\nin each detail a lovely child just become a woman. Nor was it of painted\nwood, or any other substance of which such toys are made; for when the\nphysician pricked it with his lancet, a ruby drop shone forth.\n\nBy the strict instructions of Father Inire, this little figure was\ninterred with the Chatelaine Sancha. Our laundresses having proved\nincapable of removing the stain left by the creature's paw, I ordered the\ncounterpane sent to the Chatelaine Leocadia, who being of the most advanced\nage was even then but dim of sight.\n\nShe has since gone blind, and yet her maids report that she sees the\ncat, which stalks her in her dreams. It is not well for those of high\nstation to involve the servants of their enemies in their quarrels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So as she dies, a silent homunculus reappears with the spirit, Father\nInire (who knows what happened) orders it buried with Sancha and not\notherwise, and the spirit goes on to haunt Sancha's enemy. (Open\nquestion: is it an accident that Odilo sends the haunted bedspread to\nLeocadia, who he noted 'suffered nothing', and closes with moralizing\nagainst Leocadia?)\n\nAt least, this seems to explain everything, puts the key action into\nan explicit lacunae (very Wolfe-like), and indeed justifies Odilo's\notherwise-hyperbolic opening - sacrificing parts of your soul to dark\ncosmic powers to retrieve a pet is indeed something to warn\ninhabitants of the House Absolute against, inasmuch as they live in\nclose proximity to Father Inire & his mirrors.\n\n--\ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The other issue is that if Inire has done something to get the cat back\nthat costs the good part of her soul and innocence, it makes Inire truly\na diabolical figure. His strict order to bury the doll with her lead me to\nspeculate it is her callous action of throwing the cat that might have done\nthe damage to her innocence, because she is peri-like before Inire ever\nmeddles with her. A very ambiguous mystical description.\n\nDo we view Inire as diabolical?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:37:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That darkness and gloom of creation Gwern mentioned is evoked is because\nthis is a Halloween story dressed as sf/fantasy, for what it's worth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 26, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe other issue is that if Inire has done something to get the cat back\nthat costs the good part of her soul and innocence, it makes Inire truly\na diabolical figure. His strict order to bury the doll with her lead me to\nspeculate it is her callous action of throwing the cat that might have done\nthe damage to her innocence, because she is peri-like before Inire ever\nmeddles with her. A very ambiguous mystical description.\n\nDo we view Inire as diabolical?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:40:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe other issue is that if Inire has done something to get the cat back that\ncosts the good part of her soul and innocence, it makes Inire truly a\ndiabolical figure. His strict order to bury the doll with her lead me to\nspeculate it is her callous action of throwing the cat that might have done\nthe damage to her innocence, because she is peri-like before Inire ever\nmeddles with her. A very ambiguous mystical description." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire is an ambiguous character all along; remember he is not human,\nand is partially responsible for the destruction of Urth and murdering\nmillions/billions of people for the sake of a higher goal.\n\nThe sort of scenario I had in mind is Inire tells Sancha she has done\nsomething irreversible, and Sancha angrily demands that Inire do\n*something*, she *loves* her cat above anything, and Inire asks\nwhether she's willing to pay the price and she says something like\n(how many stories or movies or novels have we seen this scene in? the\nill-considered statement to the wizard/magician/god/fae...) 'I don't\ncare whether it costs me my childhood, bring back my cat!' And so he\ndoes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'\"The people who wrote the mediaeval ballads,\" answered the priest, \"knew more about fairies than you do. It isn't only nice things that happen in fairyland.\"\n\"Oh, bosh!\" said Flambeau. \"Only nice things could happen under such an innocent moon. I am for pushing on now and seeing what does really come. We may die and rot before we ever see again such a moon or such a mood.\"\n\"All right,\" said Father Brown. \"I never said it was always wrong to enter fairyland. I only said it was always dangerous.\"'" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:46:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThat darkness and gloom of creation Gwern mentioned is evoked is because\nthis is a Halloween story dressed as sf/fantasy, for what it's worth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an out-of-universe reason for the setting yes, but look\ncarefully at Odilo's introduction: he tells us it's Halloween and he's\nheard silly false stories:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I heard such recountings of larva, lemures, and the like as would terrify every child in the Commonwealth-and make every man in it laugh most heartily." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But even though those stories of larva and lemures are false, there\nstill are dark powers and things in the universe, and Odilo has\nwitnessed them. To let people think that dark stories are false is\nitself a failing:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And do not such idle tales as I heard by the fire but serve to paint yet blacker that gloom through which we grope?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So Odilo has a responsibility:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As every thinking man acknowledges, mighty powers move through this dark universe of Briah, though for the most part hidden from us by its infinite night. Is it not every man's duty to record what little he has glimpsed that may give light to it?...I am therefore determined to set down here, for the enlightenment (as it may be) of my successors and whoever else may read, the history, whole and in entire in so far as I know it, of a series of incidents that culminated (as I believe) this night ten years gone." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And so he tells us the story of Sancha and her brush with the dark\nmighty powers hidden by infinite night (but reachable through\nmirrors)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:49:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So is \"hooking\" that golden fish dangerous? I always wondered if this was\nrelated to the new sun, though the fish is considered a minor mirror\ndweller. Inire might be literally closer to the larva and lemurs mentioned\nat the start of the tale than a figure from faerie. I haven't read the end\nof new sun in perhaps fourteen years - I need to this week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 26, 2014, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:33 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The other issue is that if Inire has done something to get the cat back\nthat\ncosts the good part of her soul and innocence, it makes Inire truly a\ndiabolical figure. His strict order to bury the doll with her lead me to\nspeculate it is her callous action of throwing the cat that might have\ndone\nthe damage to her innocence, because she is peri-like before Inire ever\nmeddles with her. A very ambiguous mystical description." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire is an ambiguous character all along; remember he is not human,\nand is partially responsible for the destruction of Urth and murdering\nmillions/billions of people for the sake of a higher goal.\n\nThe sort of scenario I had in mind is Inire tells Sancha she has done\nsomething irreversible, and Sancha angrily demands that Inire do\n*something*, she *loves* her cat above anything, and Inire asks\nwhether she's willing to pay the price and she says something like\n(how many stories or movies or novels have we seen this scene in? the\nill-considered statement to the wizard/magician/god/fae...) 'I don't\ncare whether it costs me my childhood, bring back my cat!' And so he\ndoes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'\"The people who wrote the mediaeval ballads,\" answered the priest,\n\"knew more about fairies than you do. It isn't only nice things that happen\nin fairyland.\"\n\"Oh, bosh!\" said Flambeau. \"Only nice things could happen under such an\ninnocent moon. I am for pushing on now and seeing what does really come. We\nmay die and rot before we ever see again such a moon or such a mood.\"\n\"All right,\" said Father Brown. \"I never said it was always wrong to\nenter fairyland. I only said it was always dangerous.\"'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T19:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think the larval- lemur talk is a silly tale. I think it\nreferences the hieros and hierodules. Odilo just doesn't know about that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 26, 2014, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Marc Aramini > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That darkness and gloom of creation Gwern mentioned is evoked is because\nthis is a Halloween story dressed as sf/fantasy, for what it's worth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's an out-of-universe reason for the setting yes, but look\ncarefully at Odilo's introduction: he tells us it's Halloween and he's\nheard silly false stories:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I heard such recountings of larva, lemures, and the like as would\nterrify every child in the Commonwealth-and make every man in it laugh most\nheartily." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But even though those stories of larva and lemures are false, there\nstill are dark powers and things in the universe, and Odilo has\nwitnessed them. To let people think that dark stories are false is\nitself a failing:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And do not such idle tales as I heard by the fire but serve to paint yet\nblacker that gloom through which we grope?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So Odilo has a responsibility:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As every thinking man acknowledges, mighty powers move through this dark\nuniverse of Briah, though for the most part hidden from us by its infinite\nnight. Is it not every man's duty to record what little he has glimpsed\nthat may give light to it?...I am therefore determined to set down here,\nfor the enlightenment (as it may be) of my successors and whoever else may\nread, the history, whole and in entire in so far as I know it, of a series\nof incidents that culminated (as I believe) this night ten years gone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And so he tells us the story of Sancha and her brush with the dark\nmighty powers hidden by infinite night (but reachable through\nmirrors).\n\n--\ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-26T20:12:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The parallel between Inire and mr smith in a solar labyrinth seems apt.\nThat solitary child lost in the maze at noon when the maze itself\ndisappears ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tuesday, August 26, 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI don't think the larval- lemur talk is a silly tale. I think it\nreferences the hieros and hierodules. Odilo just doesn't know about that.\nOn Tuesday, August 26, 2014, Gwern Branwen > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That darkness and gloom of creation Gwern mentioned is evoked is because\nthis is a Halloween story dressed as sf/fantasy, for what it's worth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's an out-of-universe reason for the setting yes, but look\ncarefully at Odilo's introduction: he tells us it's Halloween and he's\nheard silly false stories:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I heard such recountings of larva, lemures, and the like as would\nterrify every child in the Commonwealth-and make every man in it laugh most\nheartily." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But even though those stories of larva and lemures are false, there\nstill are dark powers and things in the universe, and Odilo has\nwitnessed them. To let people think that dark stories are false is\nitself a failing:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And do not such idle tales as I heard by the fire but serve to paint\nyet blacker that gloom through which we grope?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So Odilo has a responsibility:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "As every thinking man acknowledges, mighty powers move through this\ndark universe of Briah, though for the most part hidden from us by its\ninfinite night. Is it not every man's duty to record what little he has\nglimpsed that may give light to it?...I am therefore determined to set down\nhere, for the enlightenment (as it may be) of my successors and whoever\nelse may read, the history, whole and in entire in so far as I know it, of\na series of incidents that culminated (as I believe) this night ten years\ngone." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And so he tells us the story of Sancha and her brush with the dark\nmighty powers hidden by infinite night (but reachable through\nmirrors).\n\n--\ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FD4E9F.6020303@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-08-27T03:21:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/26/2014 12:45 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIn Thecla's story, she and her thirteen year old friend Domnina play\nbetween Father Inire's two great mirrors, and move candelabra to\nopposite ends of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe there are a couple of mistakes here.\n\n\"'I was thirteen, Severian, and I had a friend named Domnina....'\"\n\nThecla was thirteen, Domnina's age is not given.\n\n\n\"'You must take my word for it that at one place in the Hall of Meaning \nthere are two mirrors.'\"\n\nThe mirrors here are never referred to as Father Inire's. Indeed, \nDomnina's sighting of a liminal being in them surprises him and his demo \ntakes place at the many-mirrored chamber, so it is unlikely the two \nmirrors in the Hall of Meaning are specially associated with Inire any \nmore than any other feature of the House Absolute is." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-27T05:52:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "<53FD4E9F.6020303@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks I will look it over again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 8/26/2014 12:45 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Thecla's story, she and her thirteen year old friend Domnina play\nbetween Father Inire's two great mirrors, and move candelabra to\nopposite ends of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe there are a couple of mistakes here.\n\n\"'I was thirteen, Severian, and I had a friend named Domnina....'\"\n\nThecla was thirteen, Domnina's age is not given.\n\n\n\"'You must take my word for it that at one place in the Hall of Meaning\nthere are two mirrors.'\"\n\nThe mirrors here are never referred to as Father Inire's. Indeed,\nDomnina's sighting of a liminal being in them surprises him and his demo\ntakes place at the many-mirrored chamber, so it is unlikely the two\nmirrors in the Hall of Meaning are specially associated with Inire any more\nthan any other feature of the House Absolute is.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-27T06:00:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "<53FD4E9F.6020303@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think my assessment of the problematic timeline in The Map is\naccurate? It's been years and years since I read New Sun - going through it\nagain now. Ironically I know New Sun perhaps more poorly than any other\nwork by Wolfe at this point in time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 26, 2014 at 8:21 PM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 8/26/2014 12:45 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Thecla's story, she and her thirteen year old friend Domnina play\nbetween Father Inire's two great mirrors, and move candelabra to\nopposite ends of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe there are a couple of mistakes here.\n\n\"'I was thirteen, Severian, and I had a friend named Domnina....'\"\n\nThecla was thirteen, Domnina's age is not given.\n\n\n\"'You must take my word for it that at one place in the Hall of Meaning\nthere are two mirrors.'\"\n\nThe mirrors here are never referred to as Father Inire's. Indeed,\nDomnina's sighting of a liminal being in them surprises him and his demo\ntakes place at the many-mirrored chamber, so it is unlikely the two\nmirrors in the Hall of Meaning are specially associated with Inire any more\nthan any other feature of the House Absolute is.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-27T06:29:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He takes her to his specula, where beings can be materialized from " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ethereal waves" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "After being tossed in, is this cat alive or dead? I can't help but\n\nthink some of this story is a veiled nod to Schroedinger." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to tell her some tale of the worlds beyond Dis?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or circumfused to the border of Briah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Father Inire is an alien, but we are never told (openly) from which\n\nship he arrived on Urth. I think both these lines hint at Tzadkiel's\n\nShip." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I found the thing 'not unlike a doll' to be quite mysterious when I\nfirst read it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is another character from BotNS who has a thing for \"dolls\" or \n\n\"paracoita\" or \"scopolangia\" or \"genicon\". Hethor uses all these terms.\n\n\nI'll go out on a limb, but not too far, to suggest that Hethor came from\n\nTzadkiel's ship. He admits to being a mutineer and Severian sees someone\n\nwho looks a lot like him among the \"jibers\" on the Ship.\n\n\nGiven that Father Inire and Hethor are the two \"mirror masters\" and if both\n\ncame from Tzadkiel's Ship, I find a suggestion that these two characters may\n\nbe one and the same (perhaps in the way that Zak and \"tinker bell\" are the \n\nsame as Tzadkiel.\n\n\nIt is usually assumed that Hethor is a fellow assassin with Agia. But if he\n\nshares the purposes of Father Inire, perhaps his actions are not truly\n\nmurderous but rather for the purpose of observation and testing of this\n\nimmortal demi-god on Urth who doesn't quite know who he really is (yet).\n\nEarlier, Hethor seemed very admiring and worshipful of Severian and it seemed\n\nsincere.\n\n\nIn his letter to Severian, Father Inire mentions being up north with the \n\nAscians and by this and other clues, some think the Jungle Shaman is an \n\nappearance by Father Inire. Is it a coincidence that Hethor happens to be \n\nthere too? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<53FDE77F.4010100@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-08-27T14:13:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/08/2014 20:33, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe other issue is that if Inire has done something to get the cat \nback that costs the good part of her soul and innocence, it makes \nInire truly a diabolical figure. His strict order to bury the doll \nwith her lead me to speculate it is her callous action of throwing the \ncat that might have done the damage to her innocence, because she is \nperi-like before Inire ever meddles with her. A very ambiguous \nmystical description." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems to me that *something* came back, but (like Domnina's friend) \nit was not exactly her cat, and it held on to a piece of her soul somehow.\n\nMy first thought was that it needed that to keep it on Urth, but that \ndoesn't really work, as somehow it attached itself to Leocadia, by way \nof the unremovable pawprint on the counterpane.\n\nOne other thing: in old age Sancha developed a disagreeable odour, which \nshe countered by burning sandalwood. Any significance?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2014-08-27T15:22:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "<53FDE77F.4010100@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nOne other thing: in old age Sancha developed a disagreeable odour, which she\ncountered by burning sandalwood. Any significance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hard to say. It could be a reflection of her age and old-person smell:\nsandalwood is an old perfume and scented smoke source, but it also has\nsome medicinal uses including as a fumigant, but it also has a lot of\nreligious connotations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandalwood#Uses)\nwith neopaganism apparently considering it good for exorcism &\npurification. So it *could* be there to block the cat spirit,\nexplaining why the cat doesn't seem to make itself known during the\nsecond stay at the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-08-27T15:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Story 110: The Cat", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it does a little bit, because aude complains nobody told her the\nchatelaine had a pet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, August 27, 2014, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Wed, Aug 27, 2014 at 10:13 AM, Gerry Quinn > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One other thing: in old age Sancha developed a disagreeable odour, which\nshe\ncountered by burning sandalwood. Any significance?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hard to say. It could be a reflection of her age and old-person smell:\nsandalwood is an old perfume and scented smoke source, but it also has\nsome medicinal uses including as a fumigant, but it also has a lot of\nreligious connotations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandalwood#Uses)\nwith neopaganism apparently considering it good for exorcism &\npurification. So it *could* be there to block the cat spirit,\nexplaining why the cat doesn't seem to make itself known during the\nsecond stay at the House Absolute.\n\n--\ngwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }