{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6652", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6652, "subject": "5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library", "messages": 5, "voices": 5, "first": "2014-09-01T14:49:46+00:00", "last": "2014-09-02T00:22:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<1409582986.19778.YahooMailNeo@web171302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Richard Simon", "address": "gallebuck at yahoo.co.uk" }, "date": "2014-09-01T14:49:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, Gerry, Lee and Mark, for motivating me to re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus. I had hesitated to do so for many years because I found it repellent in many of its details and depressing in its entirety. The details are still repellent, but I found it a little less depressing on this reading, largely because the emotional tone of the second story ('A Story') had altered for me.\n\nSave for one, the books Number Five finds at the top of the spiral in the public library were easy enough to identify and confirm that Five's surname begins with a W. But who is the author of the book about 'the assassination of Leon Trotsky'? And what is the book? Is it a book at all, or something to do with the film of that title?\n\nBy the way, I didn't find any specific evidence in the book for Five's first name. There are Wolfe clues aplenty, but though 'Gene' is obviously an appropriate name for a clone, I couldn't find anything to confirm that it really was his name. The author has confirmed that it is, but he did so to someone who had arrived at name by guessing. Anyone have any light to shed?\n\nAlso by the way, Maitre's cloning experiments almost certainly eliminate the possibility that the population of Ste. Croix are anything other than Earth-human (well, most of them). Maitre must have gained his knowledge of genetic engineering from Terrestrial textbooks, and unless the mimicry of the shadow-children extends all the way down to the microbiological level (which is surely absurd) it wouldn't have worked if everybody was a shapeshifted nonhuman." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8D1943C954AC522-B40-17073@webmail-m243.sysops.aol.com>", "from": { "name": "jbarach at aol.com", "address": "jbarach at aol.com" }, "date": "2014-09-01T20:43:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library", "in_reply_to": "<1409582986.19778.YahooMailNeo@web171302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Richard --\n\nThe book about the assassination of Leon Trotsky is Bernard Wolfe's The Great Prince Died (alternatively titled Trotsky Dead). Wolfe was, for a while, Trotsky's secretary. He was also a science fiction writer. \n\nThe library shelf would, of course, contain all kinds of literature, but by including three science fiction writers (Bernard Wolfe, Wilhelm, and Vernor Vinge [misplaced]), Gene Wolfe is strongly hinting that we should think of Number Five's (progenitor's) name in connection with science fiction. By describing Bernard Wolfe's novel the way he does, Gene Wolfe also avoids explicitly saying the name \"Wolfe,\" though by including Virginia Woolf, he does get the sound of his last name in. Kate Wilhelm's inclusion is probably a tip of the hat to her husband, Damon Knight, who grew Gene Wolfe from a bean (as the dedication of the book says).\n\nAs for \"Gene,\" that's derived from Aunt Jeannine's name. Her brother, Number Five's father, would be Jean, and so that would also be Number Five's name ... but if you Anglicize the pronunciation, you get \"Gene.\" \n\nRobert Borski worked all of this out in his Cave Canem essay, \"Je m'appelle Jean Loup\" (http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=CaveCanem.Number5). \n\nJohn\n\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Richard Simon \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Mon, Sep 1, 2014 9:49 am\nSubject: (urth) 5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library\n\n\n\nThank you, Gerry, Lee and Mark, for motivating me to re-read The Fifth Head of Cerberus. I had hesitated to do so for many years because I found it repellent in many of its details and depressing in its entirety. The details are still repellent, but I found it a little less depressing on this reading, largely because the emotional tone of the second story ('A Story') had altered for me.\n\n\nSave for one, the books Number Five finds at the top of the spiral in the public library were easy enough to identify and confirm that Five's surname begins with a W. But who is the author of the book about 'the assassination of Leon Trotsky'? And what is the book? Is it a book at all, or something to do with the film of that title?\n\n\nBy the way, I didn't find any specific evidence in the book for Five's first name. There are Wolfe clues aplenty, but though 'Gene' is obviously an appropriate name for a clone, I couldn't find anything to confirm that it really was his name. The author has confirmed that it is, but he did so to someone who had arrived at name by guessing. Anyone have any light to shed?\n\n\nAlso by the way, Maitre's cloning experiments almost certainly eliminate the possibility that the population of Ste. Croix are anything other than Earth-human (well, most of them). Maitre must have gained his knowledge of genetic engineering from Terrestrial textbooks, and unless the mimicry of the shadow-children extends all the way down to the microbiological level (which is surely absurd) it wouldn't have worked if everybody was a shapeshifted nonhuman." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-01T21:19:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library", "in_reply_to": "<1409582986.19778.YahooMailNeo@web171302.mail.ir2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Richard. It is a bleak book for sure, but one of my favorites.\n Ultan's library finally put up my essay on it, but you are already\nfamiliar with the thesis from here - it is just way way more thorough. All\nthe best!\n\nhttp://ultan.org.uk/variance-reduction-techniques/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday, September 1, 2014, Richard Simon wrote:\nThank you, Gerry, Lee and Mark, for motivating me to re-read The Fifth\nHead of Cerberus. I had hesitated to do so for many years because I found\nit repellent in many of its details and depressing in its entirety. The\ndetails are still repellent, but I found it a little less depressing on\nthis reading, largely because the emotional tone of the second story ('A\nStory') had altered for me.\n\nSave for one, the books Number Five finds at the top of the spiral in the\npublic library were easy enough to identify and confirm that Five's surname\nbegins with a W. But who is the author of the book about 'the assassination\nof Leon Trotsky'? And what is the book? Is it a book at all, or something\nto do with the film of that title?\n\nBy the way, I didn't find any specific evidence in the book for Five's\nfirst name. There are Wolfe clues aplenty, but though 'Gene' is obviously\nan appropriate name for a clone, I couldn't find anything to confirm that\nit really was his name. The author has confirmed that it is, but he did so\nto someone who had arrived at name by guessing. Anyone have any light to\nshed?\n\nAlso by the way, Maitre's cloning experiments almost certainly eliminate\nthe possibility that the population of Ste. Croix are anything other than\nEarth-human (well, most of them). Maitre must have gained his knowledge of\ngenetic engineering from Terrestrial textbooks, and unless the mimicry of\nthe shadow-children extends all the way down to the microbiological level\n(which is surely absurd) it wouldn't have worked if everybody was a\nshapeshifted nonhuman." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "jurisper at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-02T00:02:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library", "in_reply_to": "<8D1943C954AC522-B40-17073@webmail-m243.sysops.aol.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "jbatach wrote:\n\nAs for \"Gene,\" that's derived from Aunt Jeannine's name. Her brother,\nNumber Five's father, would be Jean, and so that would also be Number\nFive's name ... but if you Anglicize the pronunciation, you get \"Gene.\"\n\n-----------------------------------------\n\nThis makes sense, but I've always wondered, why then does Number 5's name\ncome before David's in Mr Million's little roll-call?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 6:13 AM, wrote:\nRichard --\n\nThe book about the assassination of Leon Trotsky is Bernard Wolfe's *The\nGreat Prince Died* (alternatively titled *Trotsky Dead*). Wolfe was, for\na while, Trotsky's secretary. He was also a science fiction writer.\n\nThe library shelf would, of course, contain all kinds of literature, but\nby including three science fiction writers (Bernard Wolfe, Wilhelm, and\nVernor Vinge [misplaced]), Gene Wolfe is strongly hinting that we should\nthink of Number Five's (progenitor's) name in connection with science\nfiction. By describing Bernard Wolfe's novel the way he does, Gene Wolfe\nalso avoids explicitly saying the name \"Wolfe,\" though by including\nVirginia Woolf, he does get the sound of his last name in. Kate Wilhelm's\ninclusion is probably a tip of the hat to her husband, Damon Knight, who\ngrew Gene Wolfe from a bean (as the dedication of the book says).\n\nAs for \"Gene,\" that's derived from Aunt Jeannine's name. Her brother,\nNumber Five's father, would be Jean, and so that would also be Number\nFive's name ... but if you Anglicize the pronunciation, you get \"Gene.\"\n\nRobert Borski worked all of this out in his Cave Canem essay, \"Je\nm'appelle Jean Loup\" (\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=CaveCanem.Number5).\n\nJohn\n\n\n\n\n -----Original Message-----\nFrom: Richard Simon " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5227BBB6-C495-4D40-8784-C8FD300E128E@barryragin.com>", "from": { "name": "Barry Ragin", "address": "barry at barryragin.com" }, "date": "2014-09-02T00:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) 5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too want to delurk for a few minutes to say thanks for inspiring \nyet another re-read of 5HoC. I'm not quite confident enough in my own \ninterpretations to share them, but here's a couple of passages i \nfound rather more interesting on this re-read.\n\nRegarding Number Five's unspoken name, there's this in \" 'A Story', \nBy John V. Marsch.\"\n===========\n\"Chew harder,\" Sandwalker told him, \"and you won't believe that.\" And \nthen, because he was sorry to have hurt a friend at such a time he \nadded more kindly, \"which one are you — aren't you the one who showed \nme what it is you chew?\"\n\n\"Wolf.\"\n\nLastvoice had begun his chant. Sandwalker said \"Your Old Wise One \ntold me last night your names were Foxfire, Whistler, and something \nelse I forget — but there was none of that name.\"\n\n\"We have names for seven,\" the Shadow child said, \"and names for \nfive. The names for three you have heard. My name now is the name for \none. Only his name, the Old Wise One's name, never changes.\" (p. 140)\n============\n\nIt's been postulated that the Number Five clone line may be the only \nactual humans left in the St. Anne/St. Croix system. Might Wolf being \nthe name for a single Shadow child be a significant textual support \nfor this, or some other interpretation?\n\nAlso, this, in \"V. R. T.\"\n============\n\nMy problem, then, is to learn all that there is to be learned about \nsome very primitive people who have left almost no physical traces at \nall (as far as anyone knows) and some highly embroidered legends. I \nwould be disheartened if it were not that the parallel with those \npaleolithic, Caucasoid Pygmies who came to be called the Good People \n(and who survived, as was eventually shown, in Scandinavia and Erie* \nuntil the last years of the eighteenth century) were not almost \nexact. (p.157)\n===========\n\nPage numbers from the 1981 printing of the Ace edition. I believe \n*Erie to be a typo. Not as significant as the he/they editing \ndifference that's been discussed on the list, but i assume that the \ncorrect word is actually Eire. I searched the archives for the phrase \n\"Caucasoid Pygmies\" and found two hits, neither of which was more \nrecent than 2003, so i'm not sure if i'm the only one who wonders \nabout this paragraph.\n\nGoogling the phrase \"Caucasoid Pygmy\" returns exactly 3 hits, none of \nwhich i feel comfortable linking to. So, what exactly does Gene \nWolfe, who never wastes a word, mean by the phrase \"as was eventually \nshown\"? When i first read 5HoC in my twenties, i thought it was a \nfantasy, and assumed he was making a leprechaun analogy. That's \npretty clearly not the case. I think he may be saying that the person \nwho wrote this journal entry may not be the scholar he presents \nhimself to be, but i'm definitely open to other thoughts.\n\nAlso, and i don't know why, but i never made the connection between \nthe Bernard Wolfe who wrote the Trotsky book and the Bernard Wolfe \nwho wrote Limbo, which sits next to my Gene Wolfe 3 foot bookshelf. I \nmay need to re-read that one this winter.\n\n\nOnce again, thanks for the stimulating conversation.\n\nBarry" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 1, 2014, at 5:19 PM, urth-request at lists.urth.net wrote:\n5HoC: The Top Floor of the Library" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, Gerry, Lee and Mark, for motivating me to re-read The \nFifth Head of Cerberus. I had hesitated to do so for many years \nbecause I found it repellent in many of its details and depressing in \nits entirety. The details are still repellent, but I found it a \nlittle less depressing on this reading, largely because the emotional \ntone of the second story ('A Story') had altered for me.\n\nSave for one, the books Number Five finds at the top of the spiral in \nthe public library were easy enough to identify and confirm that \nFive's surname begins with a W. But who is the author of the book \nabout 'the assassination of Leon Trotsky'? And what is the book? Is \nit a book at all, or something to do with the film of that title?\n\nBy the way, I didn't find any specific evidence in the book for \nFive's first name. There are Wolfe clues aplenty, but though 'Gene' \nis obviously an appropriate name for a clone, I couldn't find \nanything to confirm that it really was his name. The author has \nconfirmed that it is, but he did so to someone who had arrived at \nname by guessing. Anyone have any light to shed?\n\nAlso by the way, Maitre's cloning experiments almost certainly \neliminate the possibility that the population of Ste. Croix are \nanything other than Earth-human (well, most of them). Maitre must \nhave gained his knowledge of genetic engineering from Terrestrial \ntextbooks, and unless the mimicry of the shadow-children extends all \nthe way down to the microbiological level (which is surely absurd) it \nwouldn't have worked if everybody was a shapeshifted nonhuman." } ] } ] }