{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6654", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6654, "subject": "You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "messages": 42, "voices": 7, "first": "2014-09-06T04:34:27+00:00", "last": "2014-09-11T15:20:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T04:34:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have always felt the statement Wolfe made in the Jordan interview about\nurth being a previous cycle was simply to escape a Catch 22 concerning God\nbreaking the covenant of the flood which the Protestant ethos of\nthe interviewer fixed upon- a get out of jail free card.\n\nCertainly in Eschatology and Genesis this is confirmed when the nephilim\nNod says that the son of Meschia \"is come to dwell with me, in my land east\nof this garden. I will give him one of my daughters to wife\". Gabriel\nreplies, (after calling him a ninny) \"you have the wrong creation, my\nfriend- you're fifty million years too late\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<540B17B6.30108@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T14:18:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/5/2014 11:34 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI have always felt the statement Wolfe made in the Jordan interview\nabout urth being a previous cycle was simply to escape a Catch 22\nconcerning God breaking the covenant of the flood which the Protestant\nethos of the interviewer fixed upon- a get out of jail free card.\n\nCertainly in Eschatology and Genesis this is confirmed when the nephilim\nNod says that the son of Meschia \"is come to dwell with me, in my land\neast of this garden. I will give him one of my daughters to wife\".\n Gabriel replies, (after calling him a ninny) \"you have the wrong\ncreation, my friend- you're fifty million years too late\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nod being late suggests to me that the \"correct\" time for him to meet \nCain would be even earlier; he was instructed wrt Cain, somehow became \npetrified, and reanimated during the next cycle before the subsequent \nCain was born." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T14:30:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "<540B17B6.30108@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, the correct time to meet Cain would have been fifty million years\nearlier. I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is a retcon of\nthe Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't going to meet\nCain in the next iteration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\n On 9/5/2014 11:34 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have always felt the statement Wolfe made in the Jordan interview\nabout urth being a previous cycle was simply to escape a Catch 22\nconcerning God breaking the covenant of the flood which the Protestant\nethos of the interviewer fixed upon- a get out of jail free card.\n\nCertainly in Eschatology and Genesis this is confirmed when the nephilim\nNod says that the son of Meschia \"is come to dwell with me, in my land\neast of this garden. I will give him one of my daughters to wife\".\n Gabriel replies, (after calling him a ninny) \"you have the wrong\ncreation, my friend- you're fifty million years too late\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nod being late suggests to me that the \"correct\" time for him to meet Cain\nwould be even earlier; he was instructed wrt Cain, somehow became\npetrified, and reanimated during the next cycle before the subsequent Cain\nwas born." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T14:31:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Protestant" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 7:30 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nRight, the correct time to meet Cain would have been fifty million years\nearlier. I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is a retcon of\nthe Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't going to meet\nCain in the next iteration.\n\n\nOn Sat, Sep 6, 2014 at 7:18 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On 9/5/2014 11:34 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I have always felt the statement Wolfe made in the Jordan interview\nabout urth being a previous cycle was simply to escape a Catch 22\nconcerning God breaking the covenant of the flood which the Protestant\nethos of the interviewer fixed upon- a get out of jail free card.\n\nCertainly in Eschatology and Genesis this is confirmed when the nephilim\nNod says that the son of Meschia \"is come to dwell with me, in my land\neast of this garden. I will give him one of my daughters to wife\".\n Gabriel replies, (after calling him a ninny) \"you have the wrong\ncreation, my friend- you're fifty million years too late\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nod being late suggests to me that the \"correct\" time for him to meet\nCain would be even earlier; he was instructed wrt Cain, somehow became\npetrified, and reanimated during the next cycle before the subsequent Cain\nwas born." } ] }, { "message_id": "<540B258D.3020706@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T15:17:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/09/2014 15:30, Marc Aramini wrote:\nRight, the correct time to meet Cain would have been fifty million \nyears earlier. I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is \na retcon of the Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't \ngoing to meet Cain in the next iteration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An actual cosmic cycle would be on the order of tens of billions of \nyears or more (this would have been known in the '80s), but I wouldn't \nrule it out on the basis of the \"fifty million\" alone, as in the context \nof a play it's a 'big enough number'.\n\nHowever, I would agree it suggests that Severian's Urth is fifty million \nyears from the beginning of mankind. In the context of such a large \nnumber, it doesn't make a difference whether we count from the beginning \nof Mankind, or the Dawn Men a few hundred or thousand years in our future.\n\nThat said, the internal evidence seems pretty inconsistent regarding the \nactual age of Urth. I feel Wolfe wanted an almost Vancean reach, even \nthough the Sun of Urth is not really dying of its own accord, so a \nfigure of fifty million works, and allows for mountains made up of \nforgotten cities etc. On the other hand, he wants more connections to \npresent day Earth than this figure would render really plausible: when \nwe see myths and legends surviving, as well as etymology and \nphotographs, it's hard to believe in a span of more than a hundred \nthousand years or so. I think the inconsistency here is pretty \nunavoidable. [Compare Robert Silverberg's more unified _Nightwings_, \nwhich is specifically set 30000 years into the future, though it has \nmuch of the same atmosphere as Urth, as well as the consequences of a \ngeological calamity and punishment for past human arrogance].\n\nAnd, of course, it could be that \"fifty million\" is an exaggeration in \nthe opposite direction, and the real time elapsed is less.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T15:40:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " And to be fair the coming of the New Sun isn't really a reboot of the\nentire cosmic cycle, just a local rebirth for Urth into Ushas. The play\nconnotes the end of urth shall be like its beginning - and that its end\nheralds a new start. So it doesn't really need to be tens of billions of\nyears." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-06T23:37:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, September 6, 2014 10:40, Marc Aramini wrote:\n And to be fair the coming of the New Sun isn't really a reboot of the\nentire cosmic cycle, just a local rebirth for Urth into Ushas. The play\nconnotes the end of urth shall be like its beginning - and that its end\nheralds a new start. So it doesn't really need to be tens of billions of\nyears." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The naming of specific individuals suggests to me that a complete recycle\nof time is intended. Unlike some treatments of Norse myth or LORD OF\nLIGHT, where there are god roles played by a progression of individuals\nwho reshuffle to replace losses from the previous age." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<540BA8BF.4070807@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-09-07T00:37:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/09/2014 00:37, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Sat, September 6, 2014 10:40, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " And to be fair the coming of the New Sun isn't really a reboot of the\nentire cosmic cycle, just a local rebirth for Urth into Ushas. The play\nconnotes the end of urth shall be like its beginning - and that its end\nheralds a new start. So it doesn't really need to be tens of billions of\nyears." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The naming of specific individuals suggests to me that a complete recycle\nof time is intended. Unlike some treatments of Norse myth or LORD OF\nLIGHT, where there are god roles played by a progression of individuals\nwho reshuffle to replace losses from the previous age." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The chapter \"The Key To The Universe\" in _Citadel of the Autarch_ makes \nit clear, I think, that the concept of cosmic cycles is intended to be \nfoundational to the structure of the universe. The blossoming of the \nNew Sun is indicated to be part of the intercyclic intercourse. \nHowever, I am not sure that any named character outside of Yesod (I \nwould include Tzadkiel among the Yesodi) have personal existences that \nintersect multiple cycles.\n\nGabriel or Nod might share in the cross-cyclic nature of the Yesodi - \nbut if they speak of coming fifty million years too late, I feel that \nthey mean too late in the same cycle; that is to say, Nod mistakes the \ncoming of Ushas for the Garden of Eden, or perhaps the expulsion \ntherefrom - but he has not appeared at the wrong cycle.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-07T02:28:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "<540BA8BF.4070807@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, September 6, 2014 19:37, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nGabriel or Nod might share in the cross-cyclic nature of the Yesodi -\nbut if they speak of coming fifty million years too late, I feel that\nthey mean too late in the same cycle; that is to say, Nod mistakes the\ncoming of Ushas for the Garden of Eden, or perhaps the expulsion\ntherefrom - but he has not appeared at the wrong cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If he's in the correct cycle but in a much latter era, then the son of\nMeschia not being born yet seems like a contradiction. Cain needs to be\nborn before the autarch, doesn't he, esp if he's the firstborn of\nhumanity?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-08T12:22:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If he's in the correct cycle but in a much latter era, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "then the son of Meschia not being born yet seems like a contradiction. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cain needs to be born before the autarch, doesn't he, esp if he's the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "firstborn of humanity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I find much in the text of BotNS to support the idea that Urth/\n\nBriah was originally intended as a previous iteration of our Earth. The\n\nvery name \"Urth\" implies the past. If Severian's world were a future \n\nversion of Earth, wouldn't Wolfe have chosen to name it \"Skuld\", for the\n\nNorn of the future. I am loathe to think Wolfe chose the name \"Urth\"\n\nsoley for the funky spelling, ignoring the meaning.\n\n\nMoreover, everything about Urth says to me \"pre-Christian\" society. The\n\ngiant pagan \"gods\" running about, the barbarism, the witchcraft, the\n\nabsence of a salvation route, etc. There is a Jesus-like figure mentioned\n\nin Short Sun but why is he associated with a Dionysian God rather than a\n\nJehovian God?\n\n\nThen there is Severian. Wolfe has said he is a \"Christ-like\" figure. Is he\n\nthe Second Coming? The Third or Fourth? That just doesn't seem right to me.\n\nSeverian seems more like an imperfect proto-Christ than a later version of\n\nhim . Plus, like the pre-Christian gods, Severian ends up in a mini-pantheon \n\nof other (false?) gods like Odilo and Thais.\n\n\nTo me, Urth is a socially, historically and technologically advanced version \n\nof Earth. But it is a spiritually stunted version which has only advanced to \n\nEarth's Noah level at the time of Severian. It makes more sense to me that\n\nUrth is a previous iteration of Earth than Urth having spiritually degenerated\n\nand all the progress which Jesus brought having been lost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is a retcon " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of the Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't going to meet\nCain in the next iteration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We must agree to disagree, Marc. In the same interview, Wolfe flatly states his\n\nbelief that the pagan gods were real and the ancients were in fact building\n\ntemples and worshipping beings that did truly exist. If Wolfe is going to commit\n\nsuch blasphemy in one part of the interview, why would he tiptoe around\n\nfundamentalist Protestantism to the point of retconning his own work in another\n\npart of the interview. Surely the reality of pagan gods is more heretical and\n\noffensive than the fictional depiction of God breaking his Covenant.\n\n\n(also, I don't think the concept of time, in years, has any meaning in regard to\n\nuniversal iterations. I think the idea is that time, as we know it, is reset to\n\nzero at the creation of a new universe.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-08T13:37:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you think of Robert and Marie and their Bible missionary work in\nthe Jungle Hut? Cross-cyclic hijinks in the Botanic Gardens? No Christ in\ntheir bible? A trick of the mirrors? Meschia is a symbol of renewal and\ngenesis but I suppose I don't take it literally - just a repopulating kind\nof new man (if he is a man) brought for Ushas - he is a symbol of new life\ntransplanted. Urth also I think is a nice name for a world so ancient and\nold it is cloaked in antiquity and decrepit - nothing new has come yet. The\nautarch doubles as God in the play, too. The roles are kind of all meshed\ntogether. So while some parts are literally true, I don't think Meschia is\nactually an ancestor of that particular Autarch at all, he is just the\nfirst of the new wave." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 5:22 AM, Lee wrote:\nJeff Wilson: If he's in the correct cycle but in a much latter era," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "then the son of Meschia not being born yet seems like a contradiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Cain needs to be born before the autarch, doesn't he, esp if he's the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "firstborn of humanity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. I find much in the text of BotNS to support the idea that Urth/\n\nBriah was originally intended as a previous iteration of our Earth. The\n\nvery name \"Urth\" implies the past. If Severian's world were a future\n\nversion of Earth, wouldn't Wolfe have chosen to name it \"Skuld\", for the\n\nNorn of the future. I am loathe to think Wolfe chose the name \"Urth\"\n\nsoley for the funky spelling, ignoring the meaning.\n\n\nMoreover, everything about Urth says to me \"pre-Christian\" society. The\n\ngiant pagan \"gods\" running about, the barbarism, the witchcraft, the\n\nabsence of a salvation route, etc. There is a Jesus-like figure mentioned\n\nin Short Sun but why is he associated with a Dionysian God rather than a\n\nJehovian God?\n\n\nThen there is Severian. Wolfe has said he is a \"Christ-like\" figure. Is he\n\nthe Second Coming? The Third or Fourth? That just doesn't seem right to me.\n\nSeverian seems more like an imperfect proto-Christ than a later version of\n\nhim . Plus, like the pre-Christian gods, Severian ends up in a\nmini-pantheon\n\nof other (false?) gods like Odilo and Thais.\n\n\nTo me, Urth is a socially, historically and technologically advanced\nversion\n\nof Earth. But it is a spiritually stunted version which has only advanced\nto\n\nEarth's Noah level at the time of Severian. It makes more sense to me that\n\nUrth is a previous iteration of Earth than Urth having spiritually\ndegenerated\n\nand all the progress which Jesus brought having been lost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is a\nretcon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of the Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't going to\nmeet\nCain in the next iteration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We must agree to disagree, Marc. In the same interview, Wolfe flatly\nstates his\n\nbelief that the pagan gods were real and the ancients were in fact building\n\ntemples and worshipping beings that did truly exist. If Wolfe is going to\ncommit\n\nsuch blasphemy in one part of the interview, why would he tiptoe around\n\nfundamentalist Protestantism to the point of retconning his own work in\nanother\n\npart of the interview. Surely the reality of pagan gods is more heretical\nand\n\noffensive than the fictional depiction of God breaking his Covenant.\n\n\n(also, I don't think the concept of time, in years, has any meaning in\nregard to\n\nuniversal iterations. I think the idea is that time, as we know it, is\nreset to\n\nzero at the creation of a new universe.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-08T13:39:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That section quotes Mt. Nebo and the Bible quite explicitly. Jonas quotes\nLewis Caroll and knows the origin source of The Tale of the Student and his\nSon and as the labyrinth of Crete and the toll from Athens. Is everything\ngoing to happen exactly the same in these cycles save one thing?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWhat do you think of Robert and Marie and their Bible missionary work in\nthe Jungle Hut? Cross-cyclic hijinks in the Botanic Gardens? No Christ in\ntheir bible? A trick of the mirrors? Meschia is a symbol of renewal and\ngenesis but I suppose I don't take it literally - just a repopulating kind\nof new man (if he is a man) brought for Ushas - he is a symbol of new life\ntransplanted. Urth also I think is a nice name for a world so ancient and\nold it is cloaked in antiquity and decrepit - nothing new has come yet. The\nautarch doubles as God in the play, too. The roles are kind of all meshed\ntogether. So while some parts are literally true, I don't think Meschia is\nactually an ancestor of that particular Autarch at all, he is just the\nfirst of the new wave.\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 8, 2014 at 5:22 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If he's in the correct cycle but in a much latter era," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "then the son of Meschia not being born yet seems like a contradiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Cain needs to be born before the autarch, doesn't he, esp if he's the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "firstborn of humanity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. I find much in the text of BotNS to support the idea that Urth/\n\nBriah was originally intended as a previous iteration of our Earth. The\n\nvery name \"Urth\" implies the past. If Severian's world were a future\n\nversion of Earth, wouldn't Wolfe have chosen to name it \"Skuld\", for the\n\nNorn of the future. I am loathe to think Wolfe chose the name \"Urth\"\n\nsoley for the funky spelling, ignoring the meaning.\n\n\nMoreover, everything about Urth says to me \"pre-Christian\" society. The\n\ngiant pagan \"gods\" running about, the barbarism, the witchcraft, the\n\nabsence of a salvation route, etc. There is a Jesus-like figure mentioned\n\nin Short Sun but why is he associated with a Dionysian God rather than a\n\nJehovian God?\n\n\nThen there is Severian. Wolfe has said he is a \"Christ-like\" figure. Is he\n\nthe Second Coming? The Third or Fourth? That just doesn't seem right to\nme.\n\nSeverian seems more like an imperfect proto-Christ than a later version of\n\nhim . Plus, like the pre-Christian gods, Severian ends up in a\nmini-pantheon\n\nof other (false?) gods like Odilo and Thais.\n\n\nTo me, Urth is a socially, historically and technologically advanced\nversion\n\nof Earth. But it is a spiritually stunted version which has only advanced\nto\n\nEarth's Noah level at the time of Severian. It makes more sense to me that\n\nUrth is a previous iteration of Earth than Urth having spiritually\ndegenerated\n\nand all the progress which Jesus brought having been lost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc Aramini: I think the insistence Urth is a previous iteration is a\nretcon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "of the Jordan interview to avoid Prostestant wrath - he isn't going to\nmeet\nCain in the next iteration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We must agree to disagree, Marc. In the same interview, Wolfe flatly\nstates his\n\nbelief that the pagan gods were real and the ancients were in fact\nbuilding\n\ntemples and worshipping beings that did truly exist. If Wolfe is going to\ncommit\n\nsuch blasphemy in one part of the interview, why would he tiptoe around\n\nfundamentalist Protestantism to the point of retconning his own work in\nanother\n\npart of the interview. Surely the reality of pagan gods is more heretical\nand\n\noffensive than the fictional depiction of God breaking his Covenant.\n\n\n(also, I don't think the concept of time, in years, has any meaning in\nregard to\n\nuniversal iterations. I think the idea is that time, as we know it, is\nreset to\n\nzero at the creation of a new universe.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-08T13:51:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lewis Carol especially is inconceivable without the presence of Christ in\nhistory. He would have a completely different life story and his\nintroductions are so heavily skewed by a particular kind of faith - he even\ntalked about trying to edit Shakespeare for the morally inappropriate parts\nfor young girls while keeping the art somehow and hoped someday to make a\nchildren's bible." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-08T18:08:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: What do you think of Robert and Marie and their Bible" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "missionary work in the Jungle Hut? Cross-cyclic hijinks in the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Botanic Gardens?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, most emphatically. I'll address that specific issue below, but\n\ngenerally I find that Dr. Talos' words apply to artifacts and stories\n\nfrom Earth being found on Urth. I don't have the text with me, but\n\nsomething about the echoes of past and future travelling back and forth\n\nthrough the corridors of time. A Frankenstein quote applies this quite\n\ndirectly to Dr. Talos, not to mention Biblical elements found in his\n\nEschatology and Genesis.\n\n\n(Conversely, I think Wolfe is suggesting that some of our legends and\n\nmyths, like Typhon, like Scylla, come as an echo from Urth not our own\n\nplanet's history.)\n\n\nWolfe is careful to put such Earthian references only in the hands of\n\ncertain key Urth individuals who are likely to be privy to them, e.g. \n\nJonah as mentioned, Father Inire/Rudesind, for the Apollo moon painting, \n\nDr. Talos for Frankenstein, etc. Please remind me if I have overlooked \n\nany Earth reference from a non-spacefaring, general populace sort from \n\nUrth (i.e. with a Saint name). I don't think I have.\n\n\nBased, in part on the hierarch shape preference, I see the links of the \n\nsequential universes coiled into a spiral shape as a model. Given that,\n\nit becomes easier to see how a link might easily appear between a lower\n\ncoil and a higher coil.\n\n\nSo, regarding Robert and Marie: \n\n\nA number of years ago, I wrote an essay which wasn't published anywhere,\n\nregarding time travel structures in BotNS. The archetype for such things \n\nis found in the Last House, for which severian has to exactly follow\n\na labyrinthine path and in doing so successfully, he arrives at a vertical\n\nstructure in which upper stories exist in the future and lower stories\n\nexist in the past.\n\n\nwe see a parallel to this in Valeria's tower, which Severian cannot find by\n\nflying around above The Citadel. He can only find it by retracing his steps\n\nin a maze below the Matachin Tower and finding the \"antique\" Valeria who \n\nresides in the lower levels of her tower. There may be a few other versions\n\nof this sort of structure in the text (the lair of the Naviscaput, for example).\n\n\nI suggest that the Jungle Hut is actually another one of these time-spanning \n\nstructures. Severian and Agia have to travel a labyrinthine path to find it. \n\nBecause they have to ascend to see the residents of the Hut, it reveals that\n\nwhat we are seeing is in the future. We see Robert, Marie a Bible and an airplane\n\nbecause inside the Hut we are in the (universal) future, on Earth.\n\n\nI find it a wonderfully written irony that the flimsiest of these time-travel \n\nstructures opens the furthest (further even than the Last House) into the\n\nfuture. And if Isangoma is really Father Inire, as some have deduced, then it\n\nmakes the connection that much stronger. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<540F25A3.2040607@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T16:06:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 08/09/2014 19:08, Lee wrote:\nWolfe is careful to put such Earthian references only in the hands of \ncertain key Urth individuals who are likely to be privy to them, e.g. \nJonah as mentioned, Father Inire/Rudesind, for the Apollo moon \npainting, Dr. Talos for Frankenstein, etc. Please remind me if I have \noverlooked any Earth reference from a non-spacefaring, general \npopulace sort from Urth (i.e. with a Saint name)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thecla's sister Thea is an exultant, so perhaps not of the common \npopulace, but she is aware of the fact that 'present' meant 'now' and \n'gift' in English. I assume she learned it in history class.\n\nAnd of course, 'The Wonders of Urth and Sky' contains certain stories \nclearly deriving in part from Earthly myths.\n\nIf we are to consider the Long Sun cosmology - though I don't think \nthat's the strongest of sources in terms of what Wolfe had in mind when \nwriting New Sun), clearly the Outsider is a fairly Christian version of \nthe Aramaic god (we may infer that the name Outsider has resonance in \nthe enclosed world of the Whorl). Jesus throwing the moneylenders of of \nthe temple is mentioned, as is a distorted version of the Eden myth - \nand there is also a reference to Allah.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<540F4A53.1050505@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T18:43:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Conditional Concession to Lee", "in_reply_to": "<540F25A3.2040607@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2014 11:06 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 08/09/2014 19:08, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe is careful to put such Earthian references only in the hands of\ncertain key Urth individuals who are likely to be privy to them, e.g.\nJonah as mentioned, Father Inire/Rudesind, for the Apollo moon\npainting, Dr. Talos for Frankenstein, etc. Please remind me if I have\noverlooked any Earth reference from a non-spacefaring, general\npopulace sort from Urth (i.e. with a Saint name)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thecla's sister Thea is an exultant, so perhaps not of the common\npopulace, but she is aware of the fact that 'present' meant 'now' and\n'gift' in English. I assume she learned it in history class." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've long been one of the people pooh-poohing Lee's notion of Inire as a\nmultiple creature and shapeshifter like Tzadkiel, despite them being at\nopposite extremes of the visible Yesodi ranks.\n\nHowever, seeing the juxtaposition of classes and people here reminds me \nthat Inire is the supplier of cloning and bestifying/anthopofying \ntechnology with his hands in the khaibits and the anpiels and \nmastiffmen. So he does have something of these abilities, only as lab \ntechnology rather than an inborn ability like the Hierogrammates.\n\nSo, perhaps Rudesind is rather a *clone* of Inire himself, explaining \ntheir similarity of simian build. This goes for the other suspects like \nthe autocthonous shaman and Isangoma. This also explains how a \nshort-lived hierodule has served a thousand years. And we know for sure \nhe has memory-transfer potions, gobble-gobble!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T18:47:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Conditional Concession to Lee", "in_reply_to": "<540F4A53.1050505@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In about every case of attention being drawn to an unusual life span in\nliterature, the answer is hidden reproduction. And doesn't The Phantom live\nin the jungle?\nI still don't like the idea of Rudesind being a monkey, though.\n\nOn 9 September 2014 19:43, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com \nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T18:49:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Conditional Concession to Lee", "in_reply_to": "<540F4A53.1050505@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind at one point says that he was \"supposed\" to tell Severian\nsomething but then messes it up. I don't mind the ape associations with\nInire at all (how else to describe all those apes just hanging around in\nweird places?), but geez associating other characters with Inire always\nrubbed me the wrong way ... even if they were described as ape-like" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 9/9/2014 11:06 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 08/09/2014 19:08, Lee wrote:\n\n Wolfe is careful to put such Earthian references only in the hands of\ncertain key Urth individuals who are likely to be privy to them, e.g." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jonah as mentioned, Father Inire/Rudesind, for the Apollo moon\npainting, Dr. Talos for Frankenstein, etc. Please remind me if I have\noverlooked any Earth reference from a non-spacefaring, general\npopulace sort from Urth (i.e. with a Saint name)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Thecla's sister Thea is an exultant, so perhaps not of the common\npopulace, but she is aware of the fact that 'present' meant 'now' and\n'gift' in English. I assume she learned it in history class." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've long been one of the people pooh-poohing Lee's notion of Inire as a\nmultiple creature and shapeshifter like Tzadkiel, despite them being at\nopposite extremes of the visible Yesodi ranks.\n\nHowever, seeing the juxtaposition of classes and people here reminds me\nthat Inire is the supplier of cloning and bestifying/anthopofying\ntechnology with his hands in the khaibits and the anpiels and mastiffmen.\nSo he does have something of these abilities, only as lab technology rather\nthan an inborn ability like the Hierogrammates.\n\nSo, perhaps Rudesind is rather a *clone* of Inire himself, explaining\ntheir similarity of simian build. This goes for the other suspects like\nthe autocthonous shaman and Isangoma. This also explains how a short-lived\nhierodule has served a thousand years. And we know for sure he has\nmemory-transfer potions, gobble-gobble!\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T19:52:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "<540F25A3.2040607@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Thecla's sister Thea is an exultant, so perhaps not of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "common populace, but she is aware of the fact that 'present' meant 'now' and \n'gift' in English. I assume she learned it in history class." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good example. Thea explains that Urth was \"renamed\" that during the period when men\n\n\"sailed between the stars, leaping from galaxy to galaxy\" which, given Tzadkiel's\n\nship, (which might be the only ship), might offer them exposure to the next\n\nuniverse in which Earth exists.\n\n\nVodalus contradicts her, claiming that Urth had been named so since the \"utmost\n\nreaches of antiquity\".\n\n\nAt the least I think Wolfe is sowing some ambiguity here on whether Urth is in \n\nEarth's past or future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And of course, 'The Wonders of Urth and Sky' contains certain stories \nclearly deriving in part from Earthly myths." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This book unequivocally contains tales from beyond Urth and thus may have\n\nabsorbed some content from Earth in the next universe.. Rudyard Kipling and Squanto \n\nare almost certainly of Earth origin. As noted in a previous post, I think Wolfe\n\nwants us to consider that some of our Earthly legends (like Abaia and Typhon)\n\nmay have been bled over from the previous iteration of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we are to consider the Long Sun cosmology - though I don't think \nthat's the strongest of sources in terms of what Wolfe had in mind when \nwriting New Sun), clearly the Outsider is a fairly Christian version of \nthe Aramaic god (we may infer that the name Outsider has resonance in \nthe enclosed world of the Whorl). Jesus throwing the moneylenders of of \nthe temple is mentioned, as is a distorted version of the Eden myth - \nand there is also a reference to Allah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again I would ask why The Outsider is not more explicitly identified as the \n\nJudeo-Christian God, Jehovah. Why is he more explicitly associated with \n\nDionysus?\n\n\nBriah being a pre-Christian universe is my explanation.\n\n\nAs has also been discussed before, the presence of a Jesus-like character is\n\ndifferent from the presence of a Christ. Same explanation.\n\n\nSeverian is a \"Christ-like\" character, that much seems established. The problem\n\nfor me, is that if it is so, what happened to Christ? How could his\n\nsalvation ever vanish from Urth? Why would another Flood be necessary? Why do we only \n\nsee Urth get an imperfect, paganish Christ-like version in Severian?\n\n\nUrth and Briah being a different, pre-Christian iteration of Earth answers these\n\nquestions for me. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T20:02:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee:\n\nThe Outsider gives Silk a clear vision of the passion of Christ. And\nDionysus, as a dying-and-reanimated god, is generally considered a\nprefigurement of Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Thecla's sister Thea is an exultant, so perhaps not of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "common populace, but she is aware of the fact that 'present' meant 'now'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and\n'gift' in English. I assume she learned it in history class.\n\n\nGood example. Thea explains that Urth was \"renamed\" that during the period\nwhen men\n\n\"sailed between the stars, leaping from galaxy to galaxy\" which, given\nTzadkiel's\n\nship, (which might be the only ship), might offer them exposure to the next\n\nuniverse in which Earth exists.\n\n\nVodalus contradicts her, claiming that Urth had been named so since the\n\"utmost\n\nreaches of antiquity\".\n\n\nAt the least I think Wolfe is sowing some ambiguity here on whether Urth\nis in\n\nEarth's past or future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And of course, 'The Wonders of Urth and Sky' contains certain stories\nclearly deriving in part from Earthly myths." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This book unequivocally contains tales from beyond Urth and thus may have\n\nabsorbed some content from Earth in the next universe.. Rudyard Kipling\nand Squanto\n\nare almost certainly of Earth origin. As noted in a previous post, I think\nWolfe\n\nwants us to consider that some of our Earthly legends (like Abaia and\nTyphon)\n\nmay have been bled over from the previous iteration of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we are to consider the Long Sun cosmology - though I don't think\nthat's the strongest of sources in terms of what Wolfe had in mind when\nwriting New Sun), clearly the Outsider is a fairly Christian version of\nthe Aramaic god (we may infer that the name Outsider has resonance in\nthe enclosed world of the Whorl). Jesus throwing the moneylenders of of\nthe temple is mentioned, as is a distorted version of the Eden myth -\nand there is also a reference to Allah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again I would ask why The Outsider is not more explicitly identified as the\n\nJudeo-Christian God, Jehovah. Why is he more explicitly associated with\n\nDionysus?\n\n\nBriah being a pre-Christian universe is my explanation.\n\n\nAs has also been discussed before, the presence of a Jesus-like character\nis\n\ndifferent from the presence of a Christ. Same explanation.\n\n\nSeverian is a \"Christ-like\" character, that much seems established. The\nproblem\n\nfor me, is that if it is so, what happened to Christ? How could his\n\nsalvation ever vanish from Urth? Why would another Flood be necessary?\nWhy do we only\n\nsee Urth get an imperfect, paganish Christ-like version in Severian?\n\n\nUrth and Briah being a different, pre-Christian iteration of Earth answers\nthese\n\nquestions for me.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-09T20:11:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Vodalus says that Urth has been named thus since the utmost reaches of\nantiquity, it is a pun on the sound. It sounds the same but is spelled\ndifferently - the same name but a different connotation. It's been renamed\nfrom Earth but its been the same phonetically - both are correct.\n\nThere is a very important thematic exchange in that Vodalus interchange in\nClaw where I believe Thea states how odd it would be if words could mean\nmore than one thing. the language of the future is supposed to be\nperspicuous (one meaning-one word - something more fantastic than eating\ndead people for extant memories)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 12:52 PM, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Thecla's sister Thea is an exultant, so perhaps not of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "common populace, but she is aware of the fact that 'present' meant 'now'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and\n'gift' in English. I assume she learned it in history class.\n\n\nGood example. Thea explains that Urth was \"renamed\" that during the period\nwhen men\n\n\"sailed between the stars, leaping from galaxy to galaxy\" which, given\nTzadkiel's\n\nship, (which might be the only ship), might offer them exposure to the next\n\nuniverse in which Earth exists.\n\n\nVodalus contradicts her, claiming that Urth had been named so since the\n\"utmost\n\nreaches of antiquity\".\n\n\nAt the least I think Wolfe is sowing some ambiguity here on whether Urth\nis in\n\nEarth's past or future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And of course, 'The Wonders of Urth and Sky' contains certain stories\nclearly deriving in part from Earthly myths." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This book unequivocally contains tales from beyond Urth and thus may have\n\nabsorbed some content from Earth in the next universe.. Rudyard Kipling\nand Squanto\n\nare almost certainly of Earth origin. As noted in a previous post, I think\nWolfe\n\nwants us to consider that some of our Earthly legends (like Abaia and\nTyphon)\n\nmay have been bled over from the previous iteration of Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If we are to consider the Long Sun cosmology - though I don't think\nthat's the strongest of sources in terms of what Wolfe had in mind when\nwriting New Sun), clearly the Outsider is a fairly Christian version of\nthe Aramaic god (we may infer that the name Outsider has resonance in\nthe enclosed world of the Whorl). Jesus throwing the moneylenders of of\nthe temple is mentioned, as is a distorted version of the Eden myth -\nand there is also a reference to Allah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again I would ask why The Outsider is not more explicitly identified as the\n\nJudeo-Christian God, Jehovah. Why is he more explicitly associated with\n\nDionysus?\n\n\nBriah being a pre-Christian universe is my explanation.\n\n\nAs has also been discussed before, the presence of a Jesus-like character\nis\n\ndifferent from the presence of a Christ. Same explanation.\n\n\nSeverian is a \"Christ-like\" character, that much seems established. The\nproblem\n\nfor me, is that if it is so, what happened to Christ? How could his\n\nsalvation ever vanish from Urth? Why would another Flood be necessary?\nWhy do we only\n\nsee Urth get an imperfect, paganish Christ-like version in Severian?\n\n\nUrth and Briah being a different, pre-Christian iteration of Earth answers\nthese\n\nquestions for me.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T12:09:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Danehy-Oakes: The Outsider gives Silk a clear vision of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the passion of Christ. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think that is clear. A Jesus-like figure is crucified but so were \n\nmany others crucified, even on Good Friday. Crucifixtion is not prima facie \n\nevidence that a person is Christ. If the Outsider's vision had included a \n\nresurrection three days later I'd be more convinced it was Jesus \"Christ\"\n\n\nAnd again I have to ask: it that was Christ then what happened to Christianity?\n\nHow did it disappear? Why didn't the Second Coming ever happen? (surely not\n\nSeverian). For me there are too many missing pieces for this planet to be\n\nEarth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dionysus, as a dying-and-reanimated god, is generally considered a\nprefigurement of Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly how I see it, which is why Silk and Dionysus (not Christ and Jehovah) \n\nfigure into not only the Short Sun story but BotNS (an issue I'll address in \n\nanother post). I see Urth as pre-Christian. But that is just my view." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: When Vodalus says that Urth has been named thus since the utmost " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "reaches of antiquity, it is a pun on the sound. It sounds the same but is " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "spelled differently - the same name but a different connotation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, Vodalus is saying Urth is Earth. But why then, does Wolfe also provide \n\nthe Thea story which Vodalus contradicts? Vodalus presents himself as having\n\nthe greater authority and dismisses Thea's story as cute and charming.\n\n\nBut Thea's story is far more detailed and specific, lending it a veracity which\n\nVodalus' off-hand explanation does not possess. Though she does not deign to \n\nre-contradict her lord, I think Thea has a much more knowledgeable source of\n\ninformation than Vodalus: Father Inire. We know Inire was involved in Thecla's\n\nchildhood. Surely he was involved in Thea's.\n\n\n\nThis debate is in interesting contrast to another one previously discussed. When \n\nGene Wolfe specifically stated in an interview that an abo had replaced Dr. Marsch, \n\nthe debate on that subject instantly ended.\n\n\nBut when Wolfe specifically states that Urth is a previous iteration of Earth in an \n\ninterview, the debate continues on to this day. We haven't heard from James Wynn in a \n\nwhile but I know he was in the \"Urth is Earth\" camp." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From my perspective, if Urth is not in a different universe than Earth then I don't" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "see any purpose in Wolfe introducing the sequential universe model in Citadel of the\n\nAutarch. Why bring up other universes if we aren't ever going to see them and \n\neverything happens right here in our universe? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T13:01:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Conditional Concession to Lee", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffery Wilson: I've long been one of the people pooh-poohing Lee's " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "notion of Inire as a multiple creature and shapeshifter like Tzadkiel, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "despite them being at opposite extremes of the visible Yesodi ranks." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkiel and Inire being at the opposite extremes is actually at the heart \n\nof my view. The religious/mythological model is that of angels and demons.\n\nThese are both the same sort of creatures. Both are superhuman, pluralized,\n\ngenderless, shapeshifting beings with animal associations. The main \n\ndifference is that demons are fallen angels who dwell on earth (and\n\nbelow?) rather than in heaven.\n\n\nI notice that Tzadkiel (as far as we know) never appears on Urth. The\n\nlower orders of Hieros such as Barbatus and Famulimus only make brief\n\nappearances on Urth. Others such as Father Inire, the Cumaean (and Abaia\n\nand Undines) are on Urth all the time for at least a thousand years. It\n\nseems pretty clear which of these are \"demons\" and Wolfe goes so far as\n\nto specifically call Juturna that name.\n\n\nThere is a specific Biblical demon that I find especially relevant to \n\nBotNS: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1 Enoch portrays Azazel as responsible for teaching people to make weapons " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and cosmetics, for which he was cast out of heaven. 1 Enoch 8:1?3a" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A lot of stories have war in them but I was always intrigued by Wolfe's\n\nemphasis on beautification in BotNS. I think this connection explains it.\n\n\nBuilding on that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to 1 Enoch (a book of the Apocrypha), Azazel (here spelled ??z??zy?l) " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "was one of the chief Grigori, a group of fallen angels who married women. This " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "same story (without any mention of Azazel) is told in Genesis 6:2?4:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This human-demon interbreeding, producing the \"Nephilim\" is interpreted by many \n\nas the real Biblical reason for the need for a purifying Flood. If Father Inire\n\nis responsible for bringing the tools of warfare and beautification to the \n\nCommonwealth, perhaps we are also invited to wonder why he is called \"Father\".\n\nHis interest in young human girls must surely serve a storyline purpose.\n\n\nAzazel is strongly associated with the goat, leading to the depiction of Satan\n\nas hooved, horned and goat-eyed. This goat-connection is related to the pagan \n\ngod Pan or Faunus, (known for his sexual proclivity and lust for human women)\n\nwhich leads to a direct connection to (who else?) Dionysus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, seeing the juxtaposition of classes and people here reminds me \nthat Inire is the supplier of cloning and bestifying/anthopofying \ntechnology with his hands in the khaibits and the anpiels and \nmastiffmen. So he does have something of these abilities, only as lab \ntechnology rather than an inborn ability like the Hierogrammates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we should not ignore Wolfe's repeated urgings that we not draw such a\n\nstrict dividing line between magic and science. Nor between biology and \n\ntechnology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, perhaps Rudesind is rather a *clone* of Inire himself, explaining \ntheir similarity of simian build. This goes for the other suspects like \nthe autocthonous shaman and Isangoma." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is the way we were meant to see it. With remembrance that one of the\n\ngoat-god Pan's best tricks was to be able to multiply himself into a small army of\n\niterations. Here is an interesting story about one of those iterations:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pan could be multiplied into a swarm of Pans, and even be given individual names, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "as in Nonnus' Dionysiaca, where the god Pan had twelve sons that helped Dionysus..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..Aegipan, literally \"goat-Pan,\" was a Pan who was fully goatlike, rather than " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "half-goat and half-man. When the Olympians fled from the monstrous giant Typhoeus " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and hid themselves in animal form, Aegipan assumed the form of a fish-tailed goat. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later he came to the aid of Zeus in his battle with Typhoeus, by stealing back Zeus' " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "stolen sinews." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhoeus being Typhon, of course.\n\n\nThe question might arise as to why Father Inire (and some of his iterations) were seen\n\nas monkey-like rather than goat-like. My guess is that Wolfe thought that \"goat\" would \n\nmake the puzzle too easy to solve. But \"monkey\" was not chosen randomly.\n\n\nSearching out the name \"Inire\" provides the Latin meaning of \"sexual entrance\" and the \n\nlikely inspiration for that word being from Innuus, an epithet of Pan reflecting his \n\nsexual nature. The demonic name \"Incubus\" is related to this.\n\n\nAs it happens, there is a tailless monkey named Macacus innuus, so named for its highly\n\nsexual nature. I think Father Inire's name and monkey resemblance is riff on this. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<54105646.3020908@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T13:46:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/09/2014 13:09, Lee wrote:\nFrom my perspective, if Urth is not in a different universe than \nEarth then I don't see any purpose in Wolfe introducing the sequential \nuniverse model in Citadel of the Autarch. Why bring up other universes \nif we aren't ever going to see them and everything happens right here \nin our universe?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To explain the Yesodi.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T13:55:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "<54105646.3020908@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, we need to see the goal mankind strives toward, the real point of\nSeverian's narrative, transcendence into something else and the yesodis.\n\nIf all these characters have access to previous iterations and cycles and\nknowledge, then what is the real difference in cycles of creation and\nmerely traveling through time? God can reach through them as easily as\nJonas, one would imagine, and Christ either valid for creation or not.\nOtherwise the yesodis and even Jonas have access to powers denied to the\nIncreate. Is Christ then the only one bound into cycles? One would\nimagine the cycles would not allow such leakage of Lewis Caroll if God\nhimself is limited to a particular cycle.\n\n(Of course with this argument I have backed myself into a theological\ncorner - why couldn't Christ have saved all those who came before him if\nGod is truly outside of time? That's okay though - let's keep it SFnal.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 6:46 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nOn 10/09/2014 13:09, Lee wrote:\n\n >From my perspective, if Urth is not in a different universe than Earth\nthen I don't see any purpose in Wolfe introducing the sequential universe\nmodel in Citadel of the Autarch. Why bring up other universes if we aren't\never going to see them and everything happens right here in our universe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To explain the Yesodi.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T14:12:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Conditional Concession to Lee", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Rudesind at one point says that he was \"supposed\" to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "tell Severian something but then messes it up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, he tells Severian he is there to clean Father Inire's painting\n\nbut then he remembers that he was supposed to tell Severian about\n\nhis own childhood and how there is a painting of him as a child by \n\nFechin that he hopes to clean.\n\n\nThe fact that Wolfe bothers to have Rudesind innocuously correct \n\nhimself is (for me) a signpost that there is a mystery to be\n\nsolved here. It is a tough one, but I think the answer lies in some\n\nsubtle hints that the Fechin painting of Rudesind as a boy is a \n\nself-portrait." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From this I deduce that Rudesind and Fechin are the same person. And from" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "the twisted, bent, monkey-like appearance I deduce that Rudesind and\n\nFather Inire are, in some sense, the same person.\n\n\nSimilar sorts of clues lead me to the conclusion that The Old Boatman is\n\nalso an iteration of Inire. He is small, old and bent. And he says he was\n\nthere when Father Inire planted averns in the Lake of Birds. He was indeed.\n\n\nDorcas was a young teen when the Old Boatman married her, another clue \n\nassociating him with Father Inire. Consider also how closely the speech\n\nof Rudesind and The Old Boatman match." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't mind the ape associations with Inire at all (how else to describe " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "all those apes just hanging around in weird places?), but geez associating " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "other characters with Inire always rubbed me the wrong way ... even if they" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "were described as ape-like." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marc, in another thread you debated that in a Wolfe work, one word is able \n\nto completely turn the story on its head and allow it to be seen from a \n\ncompletely different perspective. I wouldn't expect such a long-term, \n\nextremely well-versed Wolfe fan such as yourself to change your views, but\n\nI do think there is one word which does that for BotNS. Coincidentally (or\n\nperhaps not) that word is found in the very Severian-Rudesind conversation\n\nyou cite above. \n\n\nIt refers to the gathering of nobility and aliens, artists and sexual \n\nrevellers at the House Absolute where Dr. Talos' troop is performing. The\n\nword is \"thiasus\". It is similar to \"bacchanal\" but it specifically refers to:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Greek mythology[1] and religion, the thiasus (Greek thiasos), was the ecstatic" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "retinue of Dionysus, often pictured as inebriated revelers. Many of the myths of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dionysus are connected with his arrival in the form of a procession. The grandest" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "such version was his triumphant return from \"India\", which influenced symbolic" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "conceptions of the Roman triumph and was narrated in rapturous detail in Nonnus'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dionysiaca. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Nonnus' Dionysaica specifically refers to Pan's ability to multiply \n\nhimself, is it such a stretch to consider that the word \"thiasus\" is a hint that \n\nFather Inire is a similar sort of being able to accomplish a similar trick?\n\n\nFWIW, another likely Dionysian/Pan hint is The Green Man:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roman architecture sometimes features ornate leaf masks, which are usually taken as showing the close>interdependence between man and nature, and as describing the deities of Pan, Bacchus, Dionysus or>Silvanus, and the mystery religions that grew up around them. A leaf-clad statue of Dionysus in>Naples, Italy, dating back to about 420 BCE, is often considered one of the first Green Men images" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Superficially the Green Man would appear to be pagan, perhaps a fertility figure or a nature spirit,>similar to the woodwose (the wild man of the woods), and yet he frequently appears, carved in wood or>stone, in churches, chapels, abbeys and cathedrals, where examples can be found dating through to the>20th century. The earliest example of a green man disgorging vegetation from his mouth is from St.>Abre, in St. Hilaire-le-grand, c 400 AD.[7]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To the modern observer the earlier (Romanesque and medieval) carvings often have an unnervingly eerie>or numinous quality.[according to whom?] This is sometimes said[by whom?] to indicate the vitality of the>Green Man, who was able to survive as a symbol of pre-Christian traditions despite, and at the same>time complementary to, the influence of Christianity: rather than alienate their new converts, early>Christian missionaries would often adopt and adapt local gods, sometimes turning them into saints.[8]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://www.greenmanenigma.com/history.html\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T14:28:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any purpose in Wolfe introducing the sequential \n\nuniverse model in Citadel of the Autarch. Why bring up other \n\nuniverses if we aren't ever going to see them and everything \n\nhappens right here in our universe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: To explain the Yesodi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Yesodi characters of Apheta, Venant and Tzadkiel have not\n\nbeen introduced in Citadel of the Autarch. In fact, Wolfe did\n\nnot have plans to write UotNS while Citadel was being written.\n\n\nIt is Malrubius who tells Severian about the multiple universe\n\nstructure of the cosmos but we are given no reason to think that\n\nhe or B, F and O come from another universe. They are just \"aliens\"\n\nnot of Urth.\n\n\nSo I find the only reason to introduce such an outr? concept as\n\nmultiple universes so late in the story is not to explain where\n\nthe characters are from but to explain where we, the Earth\n\nreaders, are from and thus where Urth really is. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<54106345.6050508@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T14:42:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/09/2014 15:28, Lee wrote:\nThe Yesodi characters of Apheta, Venant and Tzadkiel have not been \nintroduced in Citadel of the Autarch. In fact, Wolfe did not have \nplans to write UotNS while Citadel was being written. It is Malrubius \nwho tells Severian about the multiple universe structure of the cosmos \nbut we are given no reason to think that he or B, F and O come from \nanother universe. They are just \"aliens\" not of Urth. So I find the \nonly reason to introduce such an outr? concept as multiple universes \nso late in the story is not to explain where the characters are from \nbut to explain where we, the Earth readers, are from and thus where \nUrth really is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Yesodi are mentioned here. They were responsible for the creation or \nmodication of the Hierodules, who in turn created aquastors such as \nMalrubius:\n\n\"It was not done swiftly or easily. Uncountable billions suffered and \ndied under their guiding hands, leaving ineradicable memories of pain \nand blood. When their universe was old, and galaxy so far separated from \ngalaxy that the nearest could not be seen even as faint stars, and the \nships were steered thence by ancient records alone, the thing was done. \nCompleted, the work was greater than those who began it could have \nguessed. What had been made was not a new race like Humanity's, but a \nrace such as Humanity wished its own to be: united, compassionate, just.\n\nI was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it \nsurvived until the implosion of the universe, then perished with it. \nPerhaps it evolved beyond our recognition. But the beings Humanity had \nshaped into what men and women wished to be escaped, opening a passage \nto Yesod, the universe higher than our own, where they created worlds \nsuited to what they had become.\n\n From that vantage point they look both forward and back, and in so \nlooking they have discovered us. Perhaps we are no more than a race like \nthat who shaped them. Perhaps it was we who shaped them or our sons or \nour fathers. Malrubius said he did not know, and I believe he told the \ntruth. However it may be, they shape us now as they themselves were \nshaped; it is at once their repayment and their revenge.\n\nThe Hierodules they have found too, and formed more quickly, to serve \nthem in this universe. On their instructions, the Hierodules construct \nsuch ships as the one that bore me from the jungle to the sea, so that \naquastors like Malrubius and Triskele may serve them also. With these \ntongs, we are held in the forge.\"\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T14:58:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "<54106345.6050508@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To explain the Yesodi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Yes, we need to see the goal mankind strives toward, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the real point of Severian's narrative, transcendence into something " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "else and the yesodis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As mentioned to Gerry, there doesn't seem to be any reason in Citadel\n\nfor any of the characters to be from Yesod. But the sequential universes\n\nare in the narrative of Citadel for a reason.\n\n\nLater, in UotNS we do get a sense that there are higher beings residing\n\nin a higher universe than Severian's but not so much in the first four\n\nbooks.\n\n\nThere is some sense of Wolfe looking to our future and making some\n\nspeculative projections. But given the total body of WOlfe's work I\n\nfind that he is far more interested in explaining our past. Urth,\n\nas a previous iteration of Earth, does that.\n\n\nWolfe says he thinks the pagan gods were real. So why don't we find\n\ngigantic, fossilized Zeus, Odin, Typhon, Scylla and Abaia bones? \n\nBecause they can only be found in a previous iteration of our planet,\n\non urth. Why can Urth be flooded? Because, like here, it only happened\n\nonce." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If all these characters have access to previous iterations and cycles and\nknowledge, then what is the real difference in cycles of creation and\nmerely traveling through time?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I see it, only a few mysterious, arcane Urth characters and their \n\nconfidants have access to knowledge of Earth. The rest operate, as we do, \n\nwith the working assumption that there is only one universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "God can reach through them as easily as Jonas, one would imagine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my impression is that the Increate is not actively \"reaching\". He, as\n\nPancreator, has already created all things in all times in all universes.\n\nTravelling through time (even one moment at a time as we do) and experiencing\n\n\"change\" is just an illusion for lesser beings who cannot simultaneously \n\nperceive more than one moment of time as it \"happens\".\n\n\nIn BotNS, Severian is a pawn who can only move one space at a time. Tzadkiel is\n\npresumably a queen who can move multiple spaces in multiple directions (some\n\nbishops and rooks might also be identified in the story). But the Increate is \n\nan entity far beyond Tzadkiel. He is all spaces and all boards everywhere.\n\nUnlike Tzadkiel, Given his universal nature, God cannot appear to a human being \n\nin any comprehensible form, hence he uses various spokesmen and other media to \n\ndeliver His messages." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Christ then the only one bound into cycles?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, since he takes human form, he is bound by the limits of that form. I don't\n\nthink Christ can be found in our universe AND in Briah except as \"leakage\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One would imagine the cycles would not allow such leakage of Lewis Caroll if God\nhimself is limited to a particular cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lewis Carroll is in human form but God is not. It is beyond our comprehension but\n\nit might be argued that the form of God IS the universe(s). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T16:04:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The Yesodi are mentioned here. They were responsible " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for the creation or modication of the Hierodules, who in turn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "created aquastors such as Malrubius:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is tautology. You are saying beings from another universe were\n\nmentioned when beings from another universe were mentioned.\n\n\nIt is a diversion from the topic of the this thread which is whether\n\nUrth is a future version of planet Earth or whether Urth is a previous\n\nuniversal iteration of Earth.\n\n\nThe James Jordan-Gene Wolfe quotes which inspired this thread are:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "rather than something that we are...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...GW: Yes, I was looking at what past universes might have been like really and " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that is how...I began with the idea of what is going to happen to us if we just " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "keep going the way we are going and continue to live on the continent of Earth " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "without ever really going into the sea or going into space and we just wait for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the money to run out. The do nothing future and thinking about what that would be. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I would show " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that this might be a past cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth\n\n\nTo me this is an explicit, detailed and unequivocal statement by Wolfe that he \n\nintended Briah and Urth to be seen as a previous universe, not our own universe \n\nnor our own Earth.\n\n\nMarc has suggested this was a casual, self-ret-con of Wolfe own work to pander to \n\nProtestant sensibilities and to post facto justify the occurrence of a second Flood\n\non Earth in violation of the Covenant.\n\n\nWith due respect to Marc, I find this to be an unbelievable explanation of such \n\nspecific and detailed words from Mr. Wolfe . I actually think it would make more sense \n\nto suggest that James Jordan deliberately misquoted Wolfe to uphold Protestant dogma. \n\nAnd with due respect to James, I do not think that is at all the case. I respect\n\nboth Gene Wolfe and James Jordan and I feel their words were reported faithfully and\n\nhonestly in this interview.\n\n\nI might find the accusation of ret-conning slightly plausible if there were no textual \n\nhints to support Gene Wolfe's contention that he intended Urth to be a previous \n\niteration of Earth. If there were no mention of multiple universes or hints that Urth \n\nis \"of the past\". But there are. Both the interview and text support the theory that\n\nUrth is not Earth.\n\n\nMarc is not the only highly intelligent, well-versed Wolfe fan who adheres to the \n\n\"Urth is Earth\" theory. And Wolfe himself seems to give latitude for each reader to\n\ninterpret some parts of his work as they see them, not necessarily as Wolfe intended \n\nthem.\n\n\nBut if Wolfe's intentions matter, then, given the words of the interview and the \n\ntextual hints, I find it more likely that the \"Urth is Earth\" theory is a case of \n\nreaders clinging to their initial, cherished impression rather than \"urth is not Earth\"\n\nbeing an incidence of Wolfe auctorial retrofitting. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T16:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well.. I guess my big problem with it is the idea of no Christ in a\nprevious iteration, because that is something that we see more clearly in\nThe Wizard Knight - knightly medieval virtues (ie- boasting and bullying)\nstripped of Christianity.\n\nThe religion of Silk is Catholicism with paganism written over it, the\ncross \"voided\" (an inversion of pagan holidays being \"appropriated\" by\nChristianity), quotes from Marcus Aurelius in the Chrasmological Writings\nand all. The Saints names, the scriptural echoes ... eucharists everywhere\n... seems the solar cycle is Catholic or Orthodox Christian in a way Wizard\nKnight never was. The cross can't be voided if there was never anything on\nit - why does it exist as a symbol at all if it has not been effaced by\ntime and the desire for worship which Typhon's amalgamation brings? Typhon\nsteals the Catholic religion and then winds up making something sublime in\nSilk. Self aggrandizement cannot kill the spirit (and I still think the\nmale and female voices in Silk's ears is a pre-recorded message from his\nparents, Pas and Kypris)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: The Yesodi are mentioned here. They were responsible" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "for the creation or modication of the Hierodules, who in turn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "created aquastors such as Malrubius:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is tautology. You are saying beings from another universe were\n\nmentioned when beings from another universe were mentioned.\n\n\nIt is a diversion from the topic of the this thread which is whether\n\nUrth is a future version of planet Earth or whether Urth is a previous\n\nuniversal iteration of Earth.\n\n\nThe James Jordan-Gene Wolfe quotes which inspired this thread are:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our\nuniverse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "rather than something that we are...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...GW: Yes, I was looking at what past universes might have been like\nreally and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that is how...I began with the idea of what is going to happen to us if\nwe just" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "keep going the way we are going and continue to live on the continent of\nEarth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "without ever really going into the sea or going into space and we just\nwait for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the money to run out. The do nothing future and thinking about what that\nwould be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I\nwould show" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that this might be a past cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth\n\n\nTo me this is an explicit, detailed and unequivocal statement by Wolfe\nthat he\n\nintended Briah and Urth to be seen as a previous universe, not our own\nuniverse\n\nnor our own Earth.\n\n\nMarc has suggested this was a casual, self-ret-con of Wolfe own work to\npander to\n\nProtestant sensibilities and to post facto justify the occurrence of a\nsecond Flood\n\non Earth in violation of the Covenant.\n\n\nWith due respect to Marc, I find this to be an unbelievable explanation of\nsuch\n\nspecific and detailed words from Mr. Wolfe . I actually think it would\nmake more sense\n\nto suggest that James Jordan deliberately misquoted Wolfe to uphold\nProtestant dogma.\n\nAnd with due respect to James, I do not think that is at all the case. I\nrespect\n\nboth Gene Wolfe and James Jordan and I feel their words were reported\nfaithfully and\n\nhonestly in this interview.\n\n\nI might find the accusation of ret-conning slightly plausible if there\nwere no textual\n\nhints to support Gene Wolfe's contention that he intended Urth to be a\nprevious\n\niteration of Earth. If there were no mention of multiple universes or\nhints that Urth\n\nis \"of the past\". But there are. Both the interview and text support the\ntheory that\n\nUrth is not Earth.\n\n\nMarc is not the only highly intelligent, well-versed Wolfe fan who adheres\nto the\n\n\"Urth is Earth\" theory. And Wolfe himself seems to give latitude for each\nreader to\n\ninterpret some parts of his work as they see them, not necessarily as\nWolfe intended\n\nthem.\n\n\nBut if Wolfe's intentions matter, then, given the words of the interview\nand the\n\ntextual hints, I find it more likely that the \"Urth is Earth\" theory is a\ncase of\n\nreaders clinging to their initial, cherished impression rather than \"urth\nis not Earth\"\n\nbeing an incidence of Wolfe auctorial retrofitting.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<54108442.30508@bindweed.com>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerry at bindweed.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T17:02:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n genesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10/09/2014 17:04, Lee wrote:\nThis is tautology. You are saying beings from another universe were \nmentioned when beings from another universe were mentioned. It is a \ndiversion from the topic of the this thread which is whether Urth is a \nfuture version of planet Earth or whether Urth is a previous universal \niteration of Earth. The James Jordan-Gene Wolfe quotes which inspired \nthis thread are: " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, you did ask what could be the purpose of introducing an iterated \nuniverse, and this is an in-text reason for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our universe?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are repeating rather than something that we are...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To me this is an explicit, detailed and unequivocal statement by Wolfe \nthat he intended Briah and Urth to be seen as a previous universe, not \nour own universe nor our own Earth. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree, at least to the extent that he makes it clear that this \nis the sort of idea that he was considering. I don't think it \nnecessarily establishes that he intended it to be unambiguously \ndeterminable from the text. I don't see anything much in the text that \npushes us towards understanding it as a past iteration, unless you \nattempt to align it with theology or some other criterion, and determine \nthat Severian's Urth is an inferior creation to ours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc has suggested this was a casual, self-ret-con of Wolfe own work \nto pander to Protestant sensibilities and to post facto justify the \noccurrence of a second Flood on Earth in violation of the Covenant. \nWith due respect to Marc, I find this to be an unbelievable \nexplanation of such specific and detailed words from Mr. Wolfe ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Leaving something ambiguous can achieve several functions at once. I \ncertainly don't think Wolfe would ret-con it for an interview. It \ndoesn't seem impossible that he might, while writing the book, have \nthought \"well, at least this iteration concept means it'll be hard for \npeople to throw theological brickbats at me!\"\n\nPersonally, I've always tended to the view that Urth might be a past, \npresent or future iteration. If Wolfe says it's a past iteration that's \nfine with me.\n\nHe might have chosen this to avoid contrasting the Conciliator with a \npast Incarnation. If so, though, it seems to me he changed his mind \nbetween New Sun and Long Sun. [One could postulate, of course, that New \nSun and Long Sun are set in different iterations - they have only two \ncharacters in common, after all. But that seems a stretch...]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T18:12:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "<54108442.30508@bindweed.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Well.. I guess my big problem with it is the idea of no Christ " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in a previous iteration.." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, my first thought is that it is instead \"no Christ in a previous iteration, yet\".\n\n\nOn the other hand, Severian does travel to the end of Briah and Tzadkiels' Ship\n\nremains decidedly un-Christian. In the James Jordan interview, Wolfe expresses a\n\npersonal wonderment about Earth and our own salvation and whether we might have to\n\nwait until the next iteration for it. So I guess the idea might be that Urth and\n\nBriah have to wait until Earth just to get Christ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...because that is something that we see more clearly in\nThe Wizard Knight - knightly medieval virtues (ie- boasting and bullying)\nstripped of Christianity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Erm..I dunno. Even among the Christian Arthurian knights there were some bad eggs\n\nlike the braggart Sir Kay and the treacherous Sir Mordred (even Lancelot and Gawain\n\n had some moral issues). Conversely I think Wizard Knight portrays a number of \n\n\"true knights\" who display the sort of humility, nobility and bravery we might expect \n\nof Christian knights. Not to say that they are Christian. But perhaps to show that \n\neven in a pagan/non-Christian society, the seeds of Christ can be found." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The religion of Silk is Catholicism with paganism written over it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a way to look at it. I view it as a religion parallel to Catholicism\n\nbut without Christ. Animal sacrifice and divination of entrails and possession\n\nby (electronic) spirits are not the superficial patina of Silk's religion. They\n\nlie at the heart of it (with remembrance that outside of Silk, the OUtsider remains\n\na minor, unimportant god)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The cross can't be voided if there was never anything on\nit - why does it exist as a symbol at all if it has not been effaced by\ntime and the desire for worship which Typhon's amalgamation brings? Typhon\nsteals the Catholic religion and then winds up making something sublime in\nSilk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The voided cross is the best presentation I've seen for evidence of an eliminated \n\nChristianity in Briah. I don't find it compelling partly because of the\n\navalanche of evidence (including the Wolfe-Jordan interview) to the contrary.\n\n\nBut also because we hear about a version of a cross (Dorcas' rood) on Urth. I\n\ndon't find that to be a \"Christian\" symbol any more than I see the Jesus figure\n\nin Short Sun to be Christ.\n\n\nFor me, Wolfe's message is that there is nothing inherently Christian about the cross.\n\nIt was just a torture device which happened to be used during a crucial time in human\n\nreligious history. Likewise for the personage of Jesus. On Earth, Jesus of Nazareth \n\nwas endowed with Christ Consciousness. But on Urth I don't think the Jesus figure shown \n\nto Silk was. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T18:35:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Well, you did ask what could be the purpose of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "introducing an iterated universe, and this is an in-text reason " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was meant more rhetorically to address the thread topic, but okay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he makes it clear that this (Urth as past iteraton) is the sort of idea " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that he was considering. I don't think it necessarily establishes that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he intended it to be unambiguously determinable from the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, in similar fashion to the other recent topic, Dr. Marsch being\n\nreplaced by an abo. As discussed, that was an ambiguous point until the\n\nWolfe interview confirmed it. I find the Jordan interview to be confirming\n\non this issue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see anything much in the text that \npushes us towards understanding it as a past iteration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed. In this case I find the interview to be the most compelling \n\nevidence for it and the text serving as confirmation. (I'm pretty \n\nsure Wolfe mentions the past iteration idea in other interviews also.\n\nI'll try to find them if anyone is interested)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He might have chosen this to avoid contrasting the Conciliator with a \npast Incarnation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On first reading, it is very possible to confuse the Conciliator with Jesus\n\nwho did serve to present a bridge of conciliation between those of heaven and \n\nthose of earth. But, by the end of Citadel, we can be pretty sure The\n\nConcilliator is Severian and UotNS confirms that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, though, it seems to me he changed his mind between New Sun and Long Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is this because of what Marc notes as the Catholic trappings of Silk's religion?\n\nOr the vision of the Jesus-like figure? Both?\n\n\nUntil told by him otherwise, I must assume Gene Wolfe intended to be consistent \n\nin his transition from New Sun to Long Sun and Short Sun. Thus, Urth, The Whorl\n\nand all of Briah are not in our universe but a past iteration. God (the Outsider)\n\nappears in this universe as Dionysian and pre-Christian rather than Jehovian and\n\nChristian. Crosses and priestly confessions and Jesus-figures may appear but they\n\nare not (yet) related to Christ.\n\n\n(I would not rule out that Silk's vision of the Jesus-figure was actually \n\nJesus Christ of Earth but if so, he would be an example of Marc's \"leakage\"\n\nbetween universes, much as Urth's \"Typhon\" and Green's vampiric \"Inhumi\" have \n\nleaked from Briah to our own myths and legends) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T18:43:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that requires the Church to have fallen somewhere along the way, and\nthe idea that the Church may fall is a heresy of much greater magnitude\nthan Lee's issues with the reality of pagan gods, which is something that\nisn't really heretical. Or with God's promise that the Earth would not\nagain be flooded: on the one hand, Wolfe chose flooding when he could have\nchosen anything else, so backtracking on it makes no sense. On the other\nhand, there are times when God does seem to have broken promises.\n\nI also find the issue of 'next' and 'previous' uncomfortably inappropriate\nwhen discussing separate universes. St Augustine knew already that there is\nno 'before' nor 'after' the universe, because time itself is part of the\nuniverse.\n\nAnd Ushas isn't a 'next universe'. It0s the same universe, the same\ncreation.\n\nI find the problems go away if we accept the quite trivial observations\nthat:\n- universes aren't 'temporally aligned', rather think of them as a bunch of\nballs inside a bag, with our own being in the centre and Yesod not being\none of them\n- not being temporally aligned, there is no need to worry that God made a\npromise in our own universe and then 'broke' it in another\n- rather, what happens in the others is independent, and yet all of them\nmay echo (differently and out of order) what happens in ours\n- there may have never been a flood on Urth (Severian's being its one\nflood), Severian's time may be millions of years after the time in\nSeverian's universe that corresponds to our own present here (so 'in the\nfuture', but not our future)\n- the earthly references on Urth may be echoes and may be imported by the\nYesodis, or some people on universes other than our own may be able to have\nvisions of things happening in our own\n- the Incarnation is a single event, happening in our universe only, and it\nwill eventually ripple to the others\n\nMy view is that Severian's universe is not unlike ours, but with slightly\ndifferent Jews and Christ was never born there. The issue tackled is, how\ndid such a universe end up, and how can it be saved, in a soteriological\nsense? And each Book of the X Sun gives an answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 10 September 2014 17:41, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWell.. I guess my big problem with it is the idea of no Christ in a\nprevious iteration, because that is something that we see more clearly in\nThe Wizard Knight - knightly medieval virtues (ie- boasting and bullying)\nstripped of Christianity.\n\nThe religion of Silk is Catholicism with paganism written over it, the\ncross \"voided\" (an inversion of pagan holidays being \"appropriated\" by\nChristianity), quotes from Marcus Aurelius in the Chrasmological Writings\nand all. The Saints names, the scriptural echoes ... eucharists everywhere\n... seems the solar cycle is Catholic or Orthodox Christian in a way Wizard\nKnight never was. The cross can't be voided if there was never anything on\nit - why does it exist as a symbol at all if it has not been effaced by\ntime and the desire for worship which Typhon's amalgamation brings? Typhon\nsteals the Catholic religion and then winds up making something sublime in\nSilk. Self aggrandizement cannot kill the spirit (and I still think the\nmale and female voices in Silk's ears is a pre-recorded message from his\nparents, Pas and Kypris)\n\nOn Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:04 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn: The Yesodi are mentioned here. They were responsible" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "for the creation or modication of the Hierodules, who in turn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "created aquastors such as Malrubius:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This is tautology. You are saying beings from another universe were\n\nmentioned when beings from another universe were mentioned.\n\n\nIt is a diversion from the topic of the this thread which is whether\n\nUrth is a future version of planet Earth or whether Urth is a previous\n\nuniversal iteration of Earth.\n\n\nThe James Jordan-Gene Wolfe quotes which inspired this thread are:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "JJ: This universe that you set in Briah, or part of it--is that our\nuniverse?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "GW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "rather than something that we are...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "...GW: Yes, I was looking at what past universes might have been like\nreally and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "that is how...I began with the idea of what is going to happen to us if\nwe just" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "keep going the way we are going and continue to live on the continent of\nEarth" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "without ever really going into the sea or going into space and we just\nwait for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "the money to run out. The do nothing future and thinking about what that\nwould be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And then I got into the idea of universal cycles. And decided that I\nwould show" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "that this might be a past cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2tmhh/wolfejbj.html#urth\n\n\nTo me this is an explicit, detailed and unequivocal statement by Wolfe\nthat he\n\nintended Briah and Urth to be seen as a previous universe, not our own\nuniverse\n\nnor our own Earth.\n\n\nMarc has suggested this was a casual, self-ret-con of Wolfe own work to\npander to\n\nProtestant sensibilities and to post facto justify the occurrence of a\nsecond Flood\n\non Earth in violation of the Covenant.\n\n\nWith due respect to Marc, I find this to be an unbelievable explanation\nof such\n\nspecific and detailed words from Mr. Wolfe . I actually think it would\nmake more sense\n\nto suggest that James Jordan deliberately misquoted Wolfe to uphold\nProtestant dogma.\n\nAnd with due respect to James, I do not think that is at all the case. I\nrespect\n\nboth Gene Wolfe and James Jordan and I feel their words were reported\nfaithfully and\n\nhonestly in this interview.\n\n\nI might find the accusation of ret-conning slightly plausible if there\nwere no textual\n\nhints to support Gene Wolfe's contention that he intended Urth to be a\nprevious\n\niteration of Earth. If there were no mention of multiple universes or\nhints that Urth\n\nis \"of the past\". But there are. Both the interview and text support the\ntheory that\n\nUrth is not Earth.\n\n\nMarc is not the only highly intelligent, well-versed Wolfe fan who\nadheres to the\n\n\"Urth is Earth\" theory. And Wolfe himself seems to give latitude for each\nreader to\n\ninterpret some parts of his work as they see them, not necessarily as\nWolfe intended\n\nthem.\n\n\nBut if Wolfe's intentions matter, then, given the words of the interview\nand the\n\ntextual hints, I find it more likely that the \"Urth is Earth\" theory is a\ncase of\n\nreaders clinging to their initial, cherished impression rather than \"urth\nis not Earth\"\n\nbeing an incidence of Wolfe auctorial retrofitting.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T19:35:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and genesis‏", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: the idea that the Church may fall is a heresy of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "much greater magnitude than Lee's issues with the reality of pagan gods, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "which is something that isn't really heretical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Though not ever having been Christian myself, I can only guess\n\nat what most Christians would consider more or less heretical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also find the issue of 'next' and 'previous' uncomfortably inappropriate\nwhen discussing separate universes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to agree on a personal level about the \"real\" universe. But in regard to \n\nBotNS we have that pesky Wolfe referring in an interview to \"past universes\" and \n\n\"past cycles\" and \"sequential universes\", all making it seem as though he pictured \n\nthem sequentially that way, at least for this story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- universes aren't 'temporally aligned', rather think of them as a bunch of\nballs inside a bag, with our own being in the centre and Yesod not being\none of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this analogy for one part of the story. As Tzadkiel's Ship travels to\n\nthe end of Briah, it is implied that it has also reached the beginning of Briah.\n\nThis doesn't fit with the \"string of sausages\" model for the sequence of universes.\n\n\nFor me, the spiral model works best for Wolfe's universes. It allows sequentiality\n\nbut also allows the beginning and end of each coil to be in proximity to each other.\n\nAnd of course the spiral is the shape preferred by the hierarchs. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T20:09:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Question: Given that time travel is the only \"real\" connection between the\ntwo, what is to say that the universe of Long/Short Sun is the same\niteration as that of New Sun? Perhaps L/SS is our universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:35 AM, Lee wrote:\nGerry Quinn: Well, you did ask what could be the purpose of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "introducing an iterated universe, and this is an in-text reason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was meant more rhetorically to address the thread topic, but okay." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "he makes it clear that this (Urth as past iteraton) is the sort of idea" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that he was considering. I don't think it necessarily establishes that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "he intended it to be unambiguously determinable from the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed, in similar fashion to the other recent topic, Dr. Marsch being\n\nreplaced by an abo. As discussed, that was an ambiguous point until the\n\nWolfe interview confirmed it. I find the Jordan interview to be confirming\n\non this issue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see anything much in the text that\npushes us towards understanding it as a past iteration." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed. In this case I find the interview to be the most compelling\n\nevidence for it and the text serving as confirmation. (I'm pretty\n\nsure Wolfe mentions the past iteration idea in other interviews also.\n\nI'll try to find them if anyone is interested)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He might have chosen this to avoid contrasting the Conciliator with a\npast Incarnation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On first reading, it is very possible to confuse the Conciliator with Jesus\n\nwho did serve to present a bridge of conciliation between those of heaven\nand\n\nthose of earth. But, by the end of Citadel, we can be pretty sure The\n\nConcilliator is Severian and UotNS confirms that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If so, though, it seems to me he changed his mind between New Sun and\nLong Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this because of what Marc notes as the Catholic trappings of Silk's\nreligion?\n\nOr the vision of the Jesus-like figure? Both?\n\n\nUntil told by him otherwise, I must assume Gene Wolfe intended to be\nconsistent\n\nin his transition from New Sun to Long Sun and Short Sun. Thus, Urth, The\nWhorl\n\nand all of Briah are not in our universe but a past iteration. God (the\nOutsider)\n\nappears in this universe as Dionysian and pre-Christian rather than\nJehovian and\n\nChristian. Crosses and priestly confessions and Jesus-figures may appear\nbut they\n\nare not (yet) related to Christ.\n\n\n(I would not rule out that Silk's vision of the Jesus-figure was actually\n\nJesus Christ of Earth but if so, he would be an example of Marc's \"leakage\"\n\nbetween universes, much as Urth's \"Typhon\" and Green's vampiric \"Inhumi\"\nhave\n\nleaked from Briah to our own myths and legends)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-10T20:12:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 11:43 AM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nOr with God's promise that the Earth would not again be flooded: on the\none hand, Wolfe chose flooding when he could have chosen anything else, so\nbacktracking on it makes no sense. On the other hand, there are times when\nGod does seem to have broken promises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, God never promises that the Earth will not again be flooded -\nonly that He will not do it. And, in New Sun, God does not do it; the\nYesodis and Severian do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My view is that Severian's universe is not unlike ours, but with slightly\ndifferent Jews and Christ was never born there. The issue tackled is, how\ndid such a universe end up, and how can it be saved, in a soteriological\nsense? And each Book of the X Sun gives an answer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2014-09-11T00:08:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nwrote:\n\n\nActually, God never promises that the Earth will not again be flooded -\nonly that He will not do it. And, in New Sun, God does not do it; the\nYesodis and Severian do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gen 9:11 in the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition has: \"I establish\nmy covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the\nwaters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the\nearth.\" This flood neither killed everyone nor destroyed the earth, so it\nwould seem to be ok regardless of who was responsible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<3C168A7B-C534-49E1-8391-006E5FC4F086@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-11T01:07:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 11/09/2014, ?s 01:08, Thomas Bitterman escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 4:12 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nActually, God never promises that the Earth will not again be flooded - only that He will not do it. And, in New Sun, God does not do it; the Yesodis and Severian do.\n\nGen 9:11 in the Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition has: \"I establish my covenant with you, that never again shall all flesh be cut off by the waters of a flood, and never again shall there be a flood to destroy the earth.\" This flood neither killed everyone nor destroyed the earth, so it would seem to be ok regardless of who was responsible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But then again neither did the other, so the words must be read as approximate. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-11T05:15:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) You have the wrong creation you ninny - eschatology and\n\tgenesis", "in_reply_to": "<3C168A7B-C534-49E1-8391-006E5FC4F086@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Question: Given that time travel is the only \"real\" connection between the\ntwo, what is to say that the universe of Long/Short Sun is the same iteration as that of New Sun? Perhaps " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "L/SS is our universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be. But is there a mention that the red sun of Urth can be seen in the night sky of Blue? Conversely,\n\nI think \"Fomalhaut\" mentioned in BotNS foreshadows the sun of Blue, that planet being\n\nthe origin of large, oceanic, fishy god/monsters.\n\n\nI think travel to Yesod can fairly be said to involve traversing both space and time. The whole idea of\n\n\"dream\" travel from Blue to Urth adds another dimension to the whole thing to the point that I don't\n\nknow how it compares to other Sun Series examples of travel.\n\n\nEntonio:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My view is that Severian's universe is not unlike ours, but with slightly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "different Jews and Christ was never born there. The issue tackled is, how " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "did such a universe end up, and how can it be saved, in a soteriological " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "sense? And each Book of the X Sun gives an answer. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ditto.\n\n\nI like that Urth, The Whorl and Blue each seem to have a unique path to \"salvation\". Blue\n\nappears to have suffered a Flood but there remains work to do, just as for post-diluvian Earth and Ushas.\n\nThere even seems a glint of hope for Green (symbolized by the flooding of the sewer?). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5411BDA1.9030106@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-11T15:20:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Conditional Concession to Lee", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2014 1:49 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nRudesind at one point says that he was \"supposed\" to tell Severian\nsomething but then messes it up. I don't mind the ape associations with\nInire at all (how else to describe all those apes just hanging around in\nweird places?), but geez associating other characters with Inire always\nrubbed me the wrong way ... even if they were described as ape-like" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his \nfrom animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as \nthe most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis.\n\nThe watcher-apes seen by Sev I still think may be aquastors, but there \nneeds to be a reason both for their presence and for their lack of \nomnipresence. Perhaps they are animal characters originally meant for \nyounger children's education but repurposed to guide or monitor \nSeverian's progress. We know Wolfe uses the theme of mechanical toys \ntaken into adult contexts in several short stories...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] } ] }