Tzadkiel's form

Jeff Wilson: Remember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his from animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as the most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Jeff Wilson: Remember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his from animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as the most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis.

Yet I think it should be remembered that one of the primates Severian encounters (on the Ship) ends up BEING Tzadkiel. Does this provide a link between Inire and Tzadkiel? I think so, along with others links, such as the type of space-time portals they both use. Biblical angels are often described as having animal characteristics though fallen angels or demons are even more likely to have bestial features. On the Ship, we see Tzadkiel range in size and form from tiny tinker bell and ball of fur to a giant winged male humanoid and even larger winged female humanoid. I think the final stage in this progression is seen by Severian in the mirror book found in the Secret House. This Tzadkiel is so large Severian thinks planet Urth would be like a dust mote caught in the wind of its wings. I think it is clear such a being cannot be biological in the sense we understand it. There are the problems of existing unprotected in the void which have been discussed for Inhumi. We must wonder what it could breathe and maybe even more fantastically, what such a being could eat. (the amusing topic of angel poop is actually relevant also). Given the lack of traditional biology of that version of Tzadkiel, I have recently been considering that we see him/her in another form also. The first time Severian hears Tzadkiel's voice it seems to emanate from everywhere in the Ship. There is the odd ability for the Ship to adjust portions of its internal conditions to the biology of its current resident. I wondered what the significance of the Ship's unusual seven-sided structure might be. Some random Googling reminded me that there are seven arch-angels, Tzadkiel being one of them. The Ship's multiple sails might in some way be represented in an angel's multiple sets of wings. I think it is possible that Wolfe meant the Ship to actually be a form of Tzadkiel. I find support for this idea in the story of the Naviscaput, in which another very large being is mistaken for, or actually is partially a ship. I think something similar happens in On Blue's Waters, when Horn sees the black "pirate ship" chasing him which later seems as though it must be the source of Seawrack. If this "ship" were really the gigantic Mother creature in the form of a boat it would explain the loss of Seawrack's arm and demonstrate the relationship between The Mother and Seawrack as the budding process we see elsewhere in the Sun Series. _______________________________________________

On Sep 11, 2014 12:58 PM, "Lee" <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Jeff Wilson: Remember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his from animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as the most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis.

Yet I think it should be remembered that one of the primates Severian encounters (on the Ship) ends up BEING Tzadkiel. Does this provide a link between Inire and Tzadkiel? I think so, along with others links, such as the type of space-time portals they both use. Biblical angels are often described as having animal characteristics though fallen angels or demons are even more likely to have bestial features. On the Ship, we see Tzadkiel range in size and form from tiny tinker bell and ball of fur to a giant winged male humanoid and even larger winged female humanoid. I think the final stage in this progression is seen by Severian in the mirror book found in the Secret House. This Tzadkiel is so large Severian thinks planet Urth would be like a dust mote caught in the wind of its wings. I think it is clear such a being cannot be biological in the sense we understand it. There are the problems of existing unprotected in the void which have been discussed for Inhumi. We must wonder what it could breathe and maybe even more fantastically, what such a being could eat. (the amusing topic of angel poop is actually relevant also). Given the lack of traditional biology of that version of Tzadkiel, I have recently been considering that we see him/her in another form also. The first time Severian hears Tzadkiel's voice it seems to emanate from everywhere in the Ship. There is the odd ability for the Ship to adjust portions of its internal conditions to the biology of its current resident. I wondered what the significance of the Ship's unusual seven-sided structure might be. Some random Googling reminded me that there are seven arch-angels, Tzadkiel being one of them. The Ship's multiple sails might in some way be represented in an angel's multiple sets of wings. I think it is possible that Wolfe meant the Ship to actually be a form of Tzadkiel. I find support for this idea in the story of the Naviscaput, in which another very large being is mistaken for, or actually is partially a ship. I think something similar happens in On Blue's Waters, when Horn sees the black "pirate ship" chasing him which later seems as though it must be the source of Seawrack. If this "ship" were really the gigantic Mother creature in the form of a boat it would explain the loss of Seawrack's arm and demonstrate the relationship between The Mother and Seawrack as the budding process we see elsewhere in the Sun Series. _______________________________________________

Daniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee

james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the naviscaput was

about Abaia.

The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common origin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as possible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the New Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters being "fallen" versions of Tzadkiel?

On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 6:08 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Daniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee

Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather poetically. Credit to Wolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being mistaken (or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large, fish-monster mouths being mistaken for caves.

james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the naviscaput was

about Abaia.

Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an interesting consideration: The daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had taken her mother, "Night" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with her primeval god- brother Erebus. So maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd ways these giant creatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the distinction between their identities as there would be for sexually produced, born creatures such as ourselves. Also of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring of Erebus and Nyx is the boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in BotNS.

The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common origin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as possible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the New Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters being "fallen" versions of Tzadkiel?

For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when Wolfe has left gaps in the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps can often be filled by turning to mythology (or religion, as it were). So in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the New Sun I think a good starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen angels mutinied and opposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth. I used that word because a "mutiny" is the primary storyline we see play out while Severian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship politics any more than we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have to just shrug and say pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided they would rather reign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship). We are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given that the "old sailor" Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a mutineer on his vessel, I think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the Ship but a younger version of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth. Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon. _______________________________________________

Marc Aramini: There is a statue of Nox/night in the second chapter of Book of the New Sun after Juturna casts him out, linking that scene directly with Abaia.

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 7:02 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Marc Aramini: There is a statue of Nox/night in the second chapter of Book of the New Sun after Juturna casts him out, linking that scene directly with Abaia.

I'm not fully understanding you Marc. After the scene where Severian is rescued by an undine, a "statue of Night atop the khan (inn) on the opposite bank (of Gyoll)" is mentioned. Are you saying this statue is sufficient to dismiss mythology and connect "Night" to Abaia, rather than Erebus? Abaia and the undine are clearly aquatic creatures but the suggestion is that Erebus is associated with an Antarctic mountain. For me, a statue atop an inn on the bank of a river is more evocative of a mountain than water. Moreover, of all the possible megatherians, Abaia is mentioned the most, but Erebus is a close second. The other candidates (Scylla, Arioch, Ouroboros, Jurpari) are generally mentioned only once. Given this, I would expect Erebus to make some sort of appearance in the story, somewhere. Otherwise, why would Wolfe mention this particular name so many times? I'll note that there is an old boatman in the Severian drowning scene who asks about a woman in the river, though Severian (perhaps pretends to) misunderstand him. Much later in the story, there is another old boatman who tells the story of a giant ship carrying gigantic, notably pale-skinned warriors. There are women's voices coming up from the water and a deeper male voice also. For me, the pale-skin and giant size are hinting at an Antarctic mountain origin for these warriors. Perhaps what lies below the water represents Abaia and undines while the ship and warriors above water represent Erebus. Definitely ambiguous and intended to be. But I continue to think the distinction between Erebus and Abaia is not as great as the distinction between one human being and another (similar connection between the gigantic Mother on Blue and Great Scylla on Urth). For Tzadkiel, we have animal versions, human versions, angel versions, male versions, female versions, tiny versions and cosmic-sized versions. Might this not be a clue that there are Urthly creatures who come in gigantic oceanic versions, smaller lake and river versions, land/mountain versions, cave versions, human sized versions and animal versions? _______________________________________________

Marc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these

Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy description

of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I agree

there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear in the text.

Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's interference.

Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology and Genesis is less

clear.

On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Daniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee

Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather poetically. Credit to Wolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being mistaken (or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large, fish-monster mouths being mistaken for caves.

james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the naviscaput was

about Abaia.

Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an interesting consideration: The daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had taken her mother, "Night" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with her primeval god- brother Erebus. So maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd ways these giant creatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the distinction between their identities as there would be for sexually produced, born creatures such as ourselves. Also of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring of Erebus and Nyx is the boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in BotNS.

The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common origin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as possible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the New Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters being "fallen" versions of Tzadkiel?

For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when Wolfe has left gaps in the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps can often be filled by turning to mythology (or religion, as it were). So in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the New Sun I think a good starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen angels mutinied and opposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth. I used that word because a "mutiny" is the primary storyline we see play out while Severian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship politics any more than we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have to just shrug and say pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided they would rather reign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship). We are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given that the "old sailor" Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a mutineer on his vessel, I think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the Ship but a younger version of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth. Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon. _______________________________________________

larry miller: Mind Blown! Is Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is also where Jonah tells the story of the "beans" too. The idea that Typhon was on the Ship could be huge. If he originally was a lifeform akin to Tzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes naming schema that any mythological name indicates an alien origin.

"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older one, that hardly

anyone has heard of now."

On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: larry miller: Mind Blown! Is Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is also where Jonah tells the story of the "beans" too. The idea that Typhon was on the Ship could be huge. If he originally was a lifeform akin to Tzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes naming schema that any mythological name indicates an alien origin.

Hethor is first introduced, (though not by name) at Agilus' execution. At first he seems just one of several sadists who deeply enjoy watching executions. Later, in the antechamber and beyond, Hethor makes it clear that he worships Severian, insistently calling him "Master" and "my Master". But later, when Severian meets Jonah, he notices that Hethor disappears and there is an implication that Hethor doesn't want to be recognized by his fellow- Shipmate. Moreover, Severian sees characters who resemble both Hethor and Jonah later on Tzadkiel's Ship. There is the naming convention where mythological names are used for aliens (or more broadly, Greco-Roman names as for Inire, Cumaean, Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago). Regarding Hethor, we are cryptically told by Agia that:

"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older one, that hardly

anyone has heard of now."

Why does Hethor go on and on about Severian being his Master and seeming to worship him, but then later try to kill him? Perhaps the worship was all an act but I sometimes think Hethor wasn't really trying to kill Severian. Perhaps, being who he is, Hethor was actually the first to recognize what Severian truly was, and his beasts were more of a series of godhood tests rather than true assassination attempts. In UotNS, on Yesod, Tzadkiel mentions that he had been Severian's acolyte in a previous iteration. Does this mean he was hidden among the throngs who follow Severian when he is the Conciliator? Or perhaps is Tzadkiel the ancient name which hardly anyone has heard of? _______________________________________________

On 9/15/2014 7:58 PM, larry miller wrote: Mind Blown! Is Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is also where Jonah tells the story of the "beans" too. The idea that Typhon was on the Ship could be huge. If he originally was a lifeform akin to Tzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes naming schema that any mythological name indicates an alien origin. On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com <mailto:severiansola at hotmail.com>> wrote: >Daniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather poetically. Credit to Wolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being mistaken (or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large, fish-monster mouths being mistaken for caves. >james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the naviscaput was >about Abaia. Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an interesting consideration: The daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had taken her mother, "Night" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with her primeval god- brother Erebus. So maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd ways these giant creatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the distinction between their identities as there would be for sexually produced, born creatures such as ourselves. Also of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring of Erebus and Nyx is the boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in BotNS. >The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common >origin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as >possible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the >New Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters >being "fallen" versions of Tzadkiel? For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when Wolfe has left gaps in the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps can often be filled by turning to mythology (or religion, as it were). So in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the New Sun I think a good starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen angels mutinied and opposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth. I used that word because a "mutiny" is the primary storyline we see play out while Severian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship politics any more than we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have to just shrug and say pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided they would rather reign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship). We are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given that the "old sailor" Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a mutineer on his vessel, I think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the Ship but a younger version of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth. Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon.

Marc Aramini:

Hethor the perverted and debased sailor who keeps his little sex doll in the closet and is manipulated by Agia, always motivated by a terrible need for revenge, is not a good character fit for being related to the actual paragon of Urth. (Tzadkiel pretty much serves as proxy for Sev in the trial).

Characterization in Wolfe is important. You can't have a stuttering blood thirsty persecution complex easily manipulated guy actually be the guardian angel of Urth without really ignoring characterization wholesale.

As far as published work on New Sun, my problem with Borski is he wants to collapse all the characters into one or two and doesn't really think logically.

Wright's reading of The God and His Man as a metafictional criticism of readers killing the author's intention is ironically about as far off as a reading can get, too.

Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the time displaced Conciliator, but other Hellenic names do not relate to Ship-sailors, Nessus for one.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon.

Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the time displaced Conciliator, but other Hellenic names do not relate to Ship-sailors, Nessus for one.

I find Wolfe's usage of the name "Nessus" to be multi-layered brilliance. First it is a plausible derivation of the name "Buenos Aires", the geographical and literary (Borges) model for the city of Nessus. Next, Buenos Aires mean "good air" or "fresh breezes" but "Nessus" invokes the concept of poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history, overpopulation and technology. Finally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a surprisingly apt model for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious ancestry who finds himself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into dangers and arduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him without he being able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both Heracles and Severian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can represent the poisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their ultimate elevation. (Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of all the positives and negatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living in the proximity affected Wolfe and his writing) _______________________________________________

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote: Speaking of Hercules .... Romulus and Remus (Frog and Fish) are in one story fathered by Mars and in another by Heracles, by the way, which might tie in to Nessus - in every version a servant is tasked with killing them and places them in a basket to let them go downstream instead, though. Mars' birth was to Juno alone - Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe there was argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies are primarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think, that links the story to fire (and perhaps the sun) in the tale of Frog and Fish. The problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon, too. In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he springs from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did from her. Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and Typhon, which would be unfortunate. The fish association with the lake island people is very strong - they have the god Oannes and fish is continually mentioned as the motivation for the strife between the shore people and the floating island folk of Pia. When Severian is captured by the shore people, he cannonballs and into the water to activate the incendiary bullets on the boat and then swims upward like a frog (which is what Mowgli's name is supposed to mean). [Pia is his age, has dark hair and a slender waist, and in love is like a "sister" to Dorcas] The battle between Baldanders and the Severian is actually referred to in the embedded tales in at least three places as well as the dream in which the little stick figures are submerged after their weapons break. In the Story of Frog and Fish, when Frog is challenged as a true man, the large Shere Khan smilodon character (the butcher?) starts to challenge the he-wolf who adopts Frog, and he is much bigger and stronger (he is burned by the fire Frog identifies as the Red Flower when he steals Frog from his real family) In Eschatology and Genesis when Nod engages the autarch, there are two demons present who indicate that the seed must be destroyed - and while Ossipago et al are three in number, one of them is different than the others - a robotic servant. Even the tale of the Student and His Son, with its naval battle, echoes the battle between Severian and Baldanders (though it is the least related, with the naviscaput matching the description of the thing coming down the river giving instructions at the end of Citadel of the Autarch. It is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born of Hera/Juno without a father, but then again ... Typhon does say "No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it." On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon.

Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the time displaced Conciliator, but other Hellenic names do not relate to Ship-sailors, Nessus for one.

I find Wolfe's usage of the name "Nessus" to be multi-layered brilliance. First it is a plausible derivation of the name "Buenos Aires", the geographical and literary (Borges) model for the city of Nessus. Next, Buenos Aires mean "good air" or "fresh breezes" but "Nessus" invokes the concept of poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history, overpopulation and technology. Finally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a surprisingly apt model for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious ancestry who finds himself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into dangers and arduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him without he being able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both Heracles and Severian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can represent the poisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their ultimate elevation. (Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of all the positives and negatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living in the proximity affected Wolfe and his writing) _______________________________________________

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote: Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that the Autarch is confused with God by Meschia. I think this is definitely part of the confusion between Christ, the Conciliator, and Sev that we get in New Sun (but not Urth) - bleeding from the forehead, water to wine, resurrections, etc. Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that scene and when the end comes Valeria is the ruler, I think the play diffuses throughout New Sun in its implications. Also, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a name which meant vine. They were supposedly created from a dead tree and its dead parasite by Odin and crew. Which leads me to believe that both futures came true simultaneously, somehow. [the trees and lianas of Green] On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote:

Speaking of Hercules .... Romulus and Remus (Frog and Fish) are in one story fathered by Mars and in another by Heracles, by the way, which might tie in to Nessus - in every version a servant is tasked with killing them and places them in a basket to let them go downstream instead, though. Mars' birth was to Juno alone - Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe there was argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies are primarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think, that links the story to fire (and perhaps the sun) in the tale of Frog and Fish. The problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon, too. In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he springs from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did from her. Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and Typhon, which would be unfortunate. The fish association with the lake island people is very strong - they have the god Oannes and fish is continually mentioned as the motivation for the strife between the shore people and the floating island folk of Pia. When Severian is captured by the shore people, he cannonballs and into the water to activate the incendiary bullets on the boat and then swims upward like a frog (which is what Mowgli's name is supposed to mean). [Pia is his age, has dark hair and a slender waist, and in love is like a "sister" to Dorcas] The battle between Baldanders and the Severian is actually referred to in the embedded tales in at least three places as well as the dream in which the little stick figures are submerged after their weapons break. In the Story of Frog and Fish, when Frog is challenged as a true man, the large Shere Khan smilodon character (the butcher?) starts to challenge the he-wolf who adopts Frog, and he is much bigger and stronger (he is burned by the fire Frog identifies as the Red Flower when he steals Frog from his real family) In Eschatology and Genesis when Nod engages the autarch, there are two demons present who indicate that the seed must be destroyed - and while Ossipago et al are three in number, one of them is different than the others - a robotic servant. Even the tale of the Student and His Son, with its naval battle, echoes the battle between Severian and Baldanders (though it is the least related, with the naviscaput matching the description of the thing coming down the river giving instructions at the end of Citadel of the Autarch. It is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born of Hera/Juno without a father, but then again ... Typhon does say "No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it." On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon.

Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the time displaced Conciliator, but other Hellenic names do not relate to Ship-sailors, Nessus for one.

I find Wolfe's usage of the name "Nessus" to be multi-layered brilliance. First it is a plausible derivation of the name "Buenos Aires", the geographical and literary (Borges) model for the city of Nessus. Next, Buenos Aires mean "good air" or "fresh breezes" but "Nessus" invokes the concept of poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history, overpopulation and technology. Finally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a surprisingly apt model for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious ancestry who finds himself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into dangers and arduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him without he being able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both Heracles and Severian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can represent the poisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their ultimate elevation. (Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of all the positives and negatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living in the proximity affected Wolfe and his writing) _______________________________________________

On 9/17/2014 9:17 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: Of course in the Ash/Ask myths, he was the first man rather than the last.

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com < jwilson at clueland.com> wrote: On 9/17/2014 9:17 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:

Of course in the Ash/Ask myths, he was the first man rather than the last.

Perhaps the Father Ash future also has rebirth when the red giant Old Sun begins to embrace his children, melting the ice then crisping their crusts... Ask/Baldur springs anew from the ashes just in time to freeze over again. -- Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com > A&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab < http://www.tamut.edu/cil > _______________________________________________

Marc Aramini: Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe

there was argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies

are primarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think, that

links the story to fire.

Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that the Autarch is

confused with God by Meschia. ........ Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that

scene.

Also, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a name which meant vine.

They were supposedly created from a dead tree and its dead parasite by Odin and crew. Which

of Green]

On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Marc Aramini: Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe

there was argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies

are primarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think, that

links the story to fire.

I thought it might be worth a mention to any who may not be so familiar with Kipling that the "red flower" is used in the Jungle Book, with Mowgli-Frog, Shere Khan, etc. to refer to fire, it being Man's special gift. The special gift of fire as conferred by a superior being is best known in the Prometheus story but that story has echoes in the Judeo-Christian tales of Lucifer, the light bringer and Azazel the (scape)goat god/demon who, like Prometheus is chained to a rock for his interference with humanity. I'm pretty sure Wolfe is aware of these alternately sympathetic and nefarioius views of the fire/light bringing deity among ancient peoples. I think this may be part of what is behind the admonition to Severian that what is happening to him and Urth is more than just a battle between "good" and "evil". There has been much recognition on this board in the past that both "good" and "evil" end up serving God's plan equally.

Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that the Autarch is

confused with God by Meschia. ........ Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that

scene.

He is played by Dr. Talos who also plays the part of archangel Gabriel. When you consider Dr. Talos' detailed familiarity with cosmic knowledge, his knowledge of Earth, his skills in beautification, his amazing artistic and literary skills, his association with the "godling" Baldanders and his mythological name, I find little doubt that he is in some way associated with the other pagan gods/aliens/fallen angels who roam the Urth.

Also, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a name which meant vine.

They were supposedly created from a dead tree and its dead parasite by Odin and crew. Which

l>eads me to believe that both futures came true simultaneously, somehow. [the trees and lianas

of Green]

More broadly, I would mention that when Severian travels the Brook Madregot, he finds that it only branches travelling upstream, not downstream. Leading me to the conclusion that in this universe, a common past may indeed lead to multiple futures which all exist. Master Ash disappears when Severian drags him into the branching in which the New Sun appears. If he had somehow dragged Ash across the frozen plain of Urth's atmosphere, I presume he would not have disappeared. _______________________________________________

On Monday 15 September 2014, larry miller wrote: . . . Wolfes naming schema that any mythologi- cal name indicates an alien origin. . . .

And on Wednesday 17 September 2014, Marc Aramini wrote: The problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon, too. In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he springs from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did from her. Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and Ty- phon, which would be unfortunate. [snip] It is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born of Hera/Juno without a fa- ther, but then again ... Typhon does say "No, I was not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it."

Marc Aramini: Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that the Autarch

is confused with God by Meschia..... Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that scene ......

Mark Millman: I hope that this information proves helpful.

Gene Wolfe: Typhon bears the name of a classical giant who breathed fire and was one of the chief enemies of the gods. The typhoon has blown his name into the modern world. Some commentaries make him the son of Zeus and Niobe (well, that's what Niobe said), and the wicked brother of the Egyptian Osiris, whom he murdered. . . . Other commentaries--and in mythology, there are always others--say he was conceived by Hera without male assistance. (My own bet is that she just wanted to forget that guy.) He is often confused with Typhoeus, son of Gaea and Tartarus, who had wings and the body of a snake. When two boys look so much alike, you're bound to get them mixed up."

MM: So we at least know what background Wolfe was using when he named Typhon, and that he distinguished Typhon, who may be born of Hera alone, from Typhoeus, who is the offspring of Gaea and Tartaros.

Typhon (/?ta?f?n, -f?n/; Greek: ?????, Tuph?n [typ????n]), also Typhoeus

(/ta??fi??s/; ???????, Tuph?eus), Typhaon (??????, Tupha?n) or Typhos (?????, Tuph’s)

was the deadliest monster of Greek mythology. The last son of Gaia, fathered by Tartarus,

he was known as the "Father of All Monsters"; his wife Echidna was likewise the "Mother

of All Monsters."

On Thursday 18 September 2014, you wrote: . . . I will disagree with one of your interpre- tations . . .

. . . [W]e at least know . . . Wolfe . . . distinguished Typhon . . . from Typhoeus . . .

I disagree that Wolfe is truly distinguishing these two. . . .

I truly think Wolfe used the idea of elec- tronic cards to represent Whorl gods as a metaphor meaning that gods are able to be shuffled and redealt as history progresses. Thus the pagan gods the ancients worships were not just imaginary or entirely discon- nected from the Judeo-Christian God. They were, in some way, an earlier version of Him.

If the ancients made the mistake of worship- ping fallen angels/demons instead of Jeho- vah, Wolfe appears sympathetic and finds it an easy mistake for them to have made. They were large, supernatural beings who demanded to be worshipped. The Flood and the coming of Jesus were steps toward helping humanity recognize the true God.

On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: Marc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these

Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy description

of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I agree

there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear in the text.

I think we are on the same page.

Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's interference.

Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology and Genesis is less

clear.

Jahi is a demon and Wolfe specifically refers to Juturna as a demon in UotNS so I assume that (and the female gender and temptress role) is your basis of connection. Given the Biblical nature of demons, I think it is a fair guess to assume they are of the same ilk. Here is a tummy-turner: Jahi and The Contessa Carina are played by the same actress, Jolenta (echo of Juturna?). The Contessa is later in UotNS (on the Path Of Air) linked to Severian's mother Catherine. Does that suggest anything about Severian's ancestry? That speculation aside, I find a not so speculative connection between the fanged demon Jahi, played by a busty redhead in BotNS and the vampiric Jahlee who takes the form of a busty redhead in Short Sun. I definitely think Wolfe is using SilkHorn and his retinue's travels to Urth to say something about the nature of Severian's unusual and mysterious family tree. (two of Borski's prime candidates for "Severa" are hinted at in those Silkhorn travels, Merryn the witch and Jolenta, via Jahi and Jahlee.) _______________________________________________

On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 6:59 AM, Marc Aramini <marcaramini at gmail.com> wrote: Changed my mind about the mine thing. The man apes serve the autarch and guard his treasure there, as the pandours in the wall at the Piteous Gate do, built as defense against the persumptious "throwing black beans in the sea" lady from offworld, as Jonas was getting at before they were so rudely interrupted. Severian asks Jonas about BOTH events after his return from the mine at Saltus, and asks how man sized soldiers could ever fight enormous beasts. The chains clanking in the dark, though they evoke a binding, could also be the chains which move an enormous mechanical thing, like the walking tower which Severian sees in chapter XXI or thereabouts in Citadel (don't have the book with me right now). In the next chapter the Autarch shows up on a giant elephantine steed and the footsteps make Sev think of the thing he awoke in the cave near Saltus. The footsteps are of a beast bound to the autarch's will in that chapter, and perhaps the proximity to the giant tower and the fact that the man-apes, the pandours at the wall, and the cave as a treasure horde of the autarch, even though it seems to indicate a binding, is in fact a hidden last line of defense that allows the autarch to fight the giants with something beyond man-sized soldiers. Thus, it is Baldanders' nightmare because it will serve Severian and the Autarch. Perhaps his closed lipped reticence to discuss the gate and the mine involve the security measures of the Autarch, something he is reluctant to go over in detail. (First Sev sees the man-apes as enemies - perhaps all of the powers that the autarch binds to himself have this slightly inimical quality to them). Also, in hindsight it is pretty clear Jahi is supposed to be Juturna ... at one point in the play she metafictionally says something to the effect, "in real life I'm bigger than everyone!" I don't know how that didn't consciously register with me before. So the talk of the demons to the autarch reveals Juturna's motivations and mission. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Lee <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

Marc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these

Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy description

of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I agree

there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear in the text.

I think we are on the same page.

Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's interference.

Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology and Genesis is less

clear.

Jahi is a demon and Wolfe specifically refers to Juturna as a demon in UotNS so I assume that (and the female gender and temptress role) is your basis of connection. Given the Biblical nature of demons, I think it is a fair guess to assume they are of the same ilk. Here is a tummy-turner: Jahi and The Contessa Carina are played by the same actress, Jolenta (echo of Juturna?). The Contessa is later in UotNS (on the Path Of Air) linked to Severian's mother Catherine. Does that suggest anything about Severian's ancestry? That speculation aside, I find a not so speculative connection between the fanged demon Jahi, played by a busty redhead in BotNS and the vampiric Jahlee who takes the form of a busty redhead in Short Sun. I definitely think Wolfe is using SilkHorn and his retinue's travels to Urth to say something about the nature of Severian's unusual and mysterious family tree. (two of Borski's prime candidates for "Severa" are hinted at in those Silkhorn travels, Merryn the witch and Jolenta, via Jahi and Jahlee.) _______________________________________________

On 9/18/2014 10:27 PM, Lee wrote: If Wolfe truly meant to distinguish Typhon from Typhoeus, why, in Long Sun, would he give Pas/Typhon a wife named Echidna? She is the wife of the son of Gaea and Tartaros, Typhoeus, not the "Typhon" identified above.

I disagree that Wolfe is truly distinguishing these two. . . .

Mark Millman: Well, fair enough. It's also possible that Wolfe distinguished between them while writing New Sun, but later changed his mind and decided to conflate them in Long Sun and Short Sun.

Thus the pagan gods the ancients worships were not just imaginary or entirely

disconnected from the Judeo-Christian God. They were, in some way, an earlier

version of Him.

Or, at least, the impulse to worship them was a step toward worshipping the true G-d, as you go on to suggest:

I disagree with you on many, many issues in interpreting Wolfe, but I agree that Wolfe sees progress toward religious enlightenment (and probably most other desirable ends as well) as incremental and contingent (in the historical sense; i.e., that actions and events are shaped by and reflect their environments).

If Wolfe truly meant to distinguish Typhon from Typhoeus, why, in Long Sun, would he give Pas/Typhon a wife named Echidna? She is the wife of the son of Gaea and Tartaros, Typhoeus, not the "Typhon" identified above.

Jeffrey Wilson: Perhaps to subtextually indicate that something is not right with the false divinities of the Whorl.

Marc Aramini: .... In the next chapter the Autarch shows up on a giant elephantine steed and

the footsteps make Sev think of the thing he awoke in the cave near Saltus...

Also, in hindsight it is pretty clear Jahi is supposed to be Juturna ... at one point in the play she

metafictionally says something to the effect, "in real life I'm bigger than everyone!" ...So the talk

of the demons to the autarch reveals Juturna's motivations and mission.

And I never gave any credence to Jolenta's possibility as a sibling. At all.