{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6665", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6665, "subject": "Tzadkiel's form", "messages": 30, "voices": 6, "first": "2014-09-11T16:58:16+00:00", "last": "2014-09-22T14:10:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-11T16:58:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: \nRemember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his \nfrom animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as \nthe most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet I think it should be remembered that one of the primates Severian \n\nencounters (on the Ship) ends up BEING Tzadkiel. Does this provide a link\n\nbetween Inire and Tzadkiel? I think so, along with others links, such as\n\nthe type of space-time portals they both use.\n\n\nBiblical angels are often described as having animal characteristics though\n\nfallen angels or demons are even more likely to have bestial features.\n\n\nOn the Ship, we see Tzadkiel range in size and form from tiny tinker bell and \n\nball of fur to a giant winged male humanoid and even larger winged female\n\nhumanoid. I think the final stage in this progression is seen by Severian in the \n\nmirror book found in the Secret House. This Tzadkiel is so large Severian thinks \n\nplanet Urth would be like a dust mote caught in the wind of its wings.\n\n\nI think it is clear such a being cannot be biological in the sense we understand\n\nit. There are the problems of existing unprotected in the void which have been\n\ndiscussed for Inhumi. We must wonder what it could breathe and maybe even\n\nmore fantastically, what such a being could eat. (the amusing topic of angel\n\npoop is actually relevant also).\n\n\nGiven the lack of traditional biology of that version of Tzadkiel, I have recently been \n\nconsidering that we see him/her in another form also. The first time Severian hears\n\nTzadkiel's voice it seems to emanate from everywhere in the Ship. There is the odd\n\nability for the Ship to adjust portions of its internal conditions to the biology of its \n\ncurrent resident.\n\n\nI wondered what the significance of the Ship's unusual seven-sided structure might\n\nbe. Some random Googling reminded me that there are seven arch-angels, Tzadkiel\n\nbeing one of them. The Ship's multiple sails might in some way be represented in\n\nan angel's multiple sets of wings.\n\n\nI think it is possible that Wolfe meant the Ship to actually be a form of Tzadkiel. I \n\nfind support for this idea in the story of the Naviscaput, in which another very large\n\nbeing is mistaken for, or actually is partially a ship.\n\n\nI think something similar happens in On Blue's Waters, when Horn sees the black \"pirate\n\nship\" chasing him which later seems as though it must be the source of Seawrack. If this\n\n\"ship\" were really the gigantic Mother creature in the form of a boat it would explain the\n\nloss of Seawrack's arm and demonstrate the relationship between The Mother and Seawrack\n\nas the budding process we see elsewhere in the Sun Series. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-11T18:26:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee. -DOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Lee wrote:\nJeff Wilson:\nRemember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his\nfrom animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as\nthe most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet I think it should be remembered that one of the primates Severian\n\nencounters (on the Ship) ends up BEING Tzadkiel. Does this provide a link\n\nbetween Inire and Tzadkiel? I think so, along with others links, such as\n\nthe type of space-time portals they both use.\n\n\nBiblical angels are often described as having animal characteristics though\n\nfallen angels or demons are even more likely to have bestial features.\n\n\nOn the Ship, we see Tzadkiel range in size and form from tiny tinker bell\nand\n\nball of fur to a giant winged male humanoid and even larger winged female\n\nhumanoid. I think the final stage in this progression is seen by Severian\nin the\n\nmirror book found in the Secret House. This Tzadkiel is so large Severian\nthinks\n\nplanet Urth would be like a dust mote caught in the wind of its wings.\n\n\nI think it is clear such a being cannot be biological in the sense we\nunderstand\n\nit. There are the problems of existing unprotected in the void which have\nbeen\n\ndiscussed for Inhumi. We must wonder what it could breathe and maybe even\n\nmore fantastically, what such a being could eat. (the amusing topic of\nangel\n\npoop is actually relevant also).\n\n\nGiven the lack of traditional biology of that version of Tzadkiel, I have\nrecently been\n\nconsidering that we see him/her in another form also. The first time\nSeverian hears\n\nTzadkiel's voice it seems to emanate from everywhere in the Ship. There is\nthe odd\n\nability for the Ship to adjust portions of its internal conditions to the\nbiology of its\n\ncurrent resident.\n\n\nI wondered what the significance of the Ship's unusual seven-sided\nstructure might\n\nbe. Some random Googling reminded me that there are seven arch-angels,\nTzadkiel\n\nbeing one of them. The Ship's multiple sails might in some way be\nrepresented in\n\nan angel's multiple sets of wings.\n\n\nI think it is possible that Wolfe meant the Ship to actually be a form of\nTzadkiel. I\n\nfind support for this idea in the story of the Naviscaput, in which\nanother very large\n\nbeing is mistaken for, or actually is partially a ship.\n\n\nI think something similar happens in On Blue's Waters, when Horn sees the\nblack \"pirate\n\nship\" chasing him which later seems as though it must be the source of\nSeawrack. If this\n\n\"ship\" were really the gigantic Mother creature in the form of a boat it\nwould explain the\n\nloss of Seawrack's arm and demonstrate the relationship between The Mother\nand Seawrack\n\nas the budding process we see elsewhere in the Sun Series.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "james ford", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-11T20:18:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was always under the assumption that the tale of the naviscaput was about\nAbaia. The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common\norigin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as\npossible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the\nNew Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters\nbeing \"fallen\" versions of Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On Sep 11, 2014 12:58 PM, \"Lee\" wrote:\nJeff Wilson:\nRemember Tzadkiel's story that the original exalted human race built his\nfrom animals, so an association with animals and beastmen and apes as\nthe most humanlike of animals is not inappropriate for Yesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet I think it should be remembered that one of the primates Severian\n\nencounters (on the Ship) ends up BEING Tzadkiel. Does this provide a link\n\nbetween Inire and Tzadkiel? I think so, along with others links, such as\n\nthe type of space-time portals they both use.\n\n\nBiblical angels are often described as having animal characteristics though\n\nfallen angels or demons are even more likely to have bestial features.\n\n\nOn the Ship, we see Tzadkiel range in size and form from tiny tinker bell\nand\n\nball of fur to a giant winged male humanoid and even larger winged female\n\nhumanoid. I think the final stage in this progression is seen by Severian\nin the\n\nmirror book found in the Secret House. This Tzadkiel is so large Severian\nthinks\n\nplanet Urth would be like a dust mote caught in the wind of its wings.\n\n\nI think it is clear such a being cannot be biological in the sense we\nunderstand\n\nit. There are the problems of existing unprotected in the void which have\nbeen\n\ndiscussed for Inhumi. We must wonder what it could breathe and maybe even\n\nmore fantastically, what such a being could eat. (the amusing topic of\nangel\n\npoop is actually relevant also).\n\n\nGiven the lack of traditional biology of that version of Tzadkiel, I have\nrecently been\n\nconsidering that we see him/her in another form also. The first time\nSeverian hears\n\nTzadkiel's voice it seems to emanate from everywhere in the Ship. There is\nthe odd\n\nability for the Ship to adjust portions of its internal conditions to the\nbiology of its\n\ncurrent resident.\n\n\nI wondered what the significance of the Ship's unusual seven-sided\nstructure might\n\nbe. Some random Googling reminded me that there are seven arch-angels,\nTzadkiel\n\nbeing one of them. The Ship's multiple sails might in some way be\nrepresented in\n\nan angel's multiple sets of wings.\n\n\nI think it is possible that Wolfe meant the Ship to actually be a form of\nTzadkiel. I\n\nfind support for this idea in the story of the Naviscaput, in which\nanother very large\n\nbeing is mistaken for, or actually is partially a ship.\n\n\nI think something similar happens in On Blue's Waters, when Horn sees the\nblack \"pirate\n\nship\" chasing him which later seems as though it must be the source of\nSeawrack. If this\n\n\"ship\" were really the gigantic Mother creature in the form of a boat it\nwould explain the\n\nloss of Seawrack's arm and demonstrate the relationship between The Mother\nand Seawrack\n\nas the budding process we see elsewhere in the Sun Series.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-12T13:08:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather poetically. Credit to\n\nWolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being mistaken \n\n(or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large, fish-monster \n\nmouths being mistaken for caves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the naviscaput was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "about Abaia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an interesting consideration:\n\n\nThe daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had taken her mother,\n\n\"Night\" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with her primeval god-\n\nbrother Erebus.\n\n\nSo maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd ways these giant\n\ncreatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the distinction between\n\ntheir identities as there would be for sexually produced, born creatures such as ourselves.\n\n\nAlso of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring of Erebus and Nyx is\n\nthe boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common\norigin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as\npossible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the\nNew Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters\nbeing \"fallen\" versions of Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when Wolfe has left gaps\n\nin the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps can often be filled by \n\nturning to mythology (or religion, as it were).\n\n\nSo in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the New Sun I think a\n\ngood starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen angels mutinied and \n\nopposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth.\n\n\nI used that word because a \"mutiny\" is the primary storyline we see play out while\n\nSeverian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship politics any more\n\nthan we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have to just shrug and\n\nsay pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided they would rather\n\nreign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship).\n\n\nWe are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given that the \"old sailor\" \n\n Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a mutineer on his vessel, \n\nI think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the Ship but a younger \n\nversion of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth.\n\n\nGiven Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch that he is \n\nassociated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is that, in parallel\n\nto the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's \n\nShip. By name alone, this would include Typhon. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-12T18:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is a statue of Nox/night in the second chapter of Book of the New Sun\nafter Juturna casts him out, linking that scene directly with Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 6:08 AM, Lee wrote:\nDaniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather poetically.\nCredit to\n\nWolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being\nmistaken\n\n(or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large,\nfish-monster\n\nmouths being mistaken for caves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the\nnaviscaput was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "about Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an interesting\nconsideration:\n\n\nThe daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had taken\nher mother,\n\n\"Night\" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with her\nprimeval god-\n\nbrother Erebus.\n\n\nSo maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd ways\nthese giant\n\ncreatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the\ndistinction between\n\ntheir identities as there would be for sexually produced, born creatures\nsuch as ourselves.\n\n\nAlso of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring of\nErebus and Nyx is\n\nthe boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common\norigin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as\npossible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the\nNew Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters\nbeing \"fallen\" versions of Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when Wolfe\nhas left gaps\n\nin the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps can\noften be filled by\n\nturning to mythology (or religion, as it were).\n\n\nSo in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the New\nSun I think a\n\ngood starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen angels\nmutinied and\n\nopposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth.\n\n\nI used that word because a \"mutiny\" is the primary storyline we see play\nout while\n\nSeverian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship politics\nany more\n\nthan we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have to\njust shrug and\n\nsay pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided they\nwould rather\n\nreign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship).\n\n\nWe are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given that\nthe \"old sailor\"\n\n Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a mutineer\non his vessel,\n\nI think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the Ship\nbut a younger\n\nversion of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth.\n\n\nGiven Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch\nthat he is\n\nassociated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is\nthat, in parallel\n\nto the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as\nmutineers from Tzadkiel's\n\nShip. By name alone, this would include Typhon.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-15T14:02:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: There is a statue of Nox/night in the second chapter of Book of the New Sun\nafter Juturna casts him out, linking that scene directly with Abaia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not fully understanding you Marc. After the scene where Severian is rescued by an undine,\n\na \"statue of Night atop the khan (inn) on the opposite bank (of Gyoll)\" is mentioned. Are you \n\nsaying this statue is sufficient to dismiss mythology and connect \"Night\" to Abaia, rather than\n\nErebus?\n\n\nAbaia and the undine are clearly aquatic creatures but the suggestion is that Erebus is associated\n\nwith an Antarctic mountain. For me, a statue atop an inn on the bank of a river is more evocative\n\nof a mountain than water.\n\n\nMoreover, of all the possible megatherians, Abaia is mentioned the most, but Erebus is a close \n\nsecond. The other candidates (Scylla, Arioch, Ouroboros, Jurpari) are generally mentioned only\n\nonce. Given this, I would expect Erebus to make some sort of appearance in the story, somewhere.\n\nOtherwise, why would Wolfe mention this particular name so many times?\n\n\nI'll note that there is an old boatman in the Severian drowning scene who asks about a woman in\n\nthe river, though Severian (perhaps pretends to) misunderstand him.\n\n\nMuch later in the story, there is another old boatman who tells the story of a giant ship carrying\n\ngigantic, notably pale-skinned warriors. There are women's voices coming up from the water and\n\na deeper male voice also. For me, the pale-skin and giant size are hinting at an Antarctic mountain\n\n origin for these warriors. Perhaps what lies below the water represents Abaia and undines while the \n\nship and warriors above water represent Erebus.\n\n\nDefinitely ambiguous and intended to be. But I continue to think the distinction between Erebus \n\nand Abaia is not as great as the distinction between one human being and another (similar \n\nconnection between the gigantic Mother on Blue and Great Scylla on Urth). \n\n\nFor Tzadkiel, we have animal versions, human versions, angel versions, male versions, female versions,\n\ntiny versions and cosmic-sized versions. Might this not be a clue that there are Urthly creatures who\n\ncome in gigantic oceanic versions, smaller lake and river versions, land/mountain versions, cave versions,\n\nhuman sized versions and animal versions? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-15T15:55:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, all I was implying was that the undines are known as the brides of\nAbaia. This scene is where Sev is rescued by the undine Juturna, who casts\nhim up, and he sees the statue of Night when he comes back to\nconsciousness. Later, in the story of the Student and His Son, the woman\nwho helps the son is a daughter of Night working against her father, and\nthe naviscaput seems to be like the giant thing issuing orders at the end\nof Citadel of the autarch - probably Abaia.\nUndines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's\ninterference. Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in\nEschatology and Genesis is less clear.\n\nAfter Sev awakens something in the mine at Saltus, he speculates that he\nknows why Abaia has tried to enlist him in this battle, or something to\nthat effect. That thing under the mine might very well be one of these\nAbaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy\ndescription of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream\npretty well. I agree there is very little distinction between all these\nguys as they appear in the text.\n\nSpring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard - I obviously hadn't\nread that since I devised the man-tree hybrid scheme of Short Sun.\nDefinitely those embedded stories would have told us the real plot and its\ndenouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was never written, but\nthey are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic blending of stories of\nMowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose without\nthorns, which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the\nConciliator probably winds up being the thorn of a flower dipped in his\nblood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 7:02 AM, Lee wrote:\nMarc Aramini: There is a statue of Nox/night in the second chapter of\nBook of the New Sun\nafter Juturna casts him out, linking that scene directly with Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not fully understanding you Marc. After the scene where Severian is\nrescued by an undine,\n\na \"statue of Night atop the khan (inn) on the opposite bank (of Gyoll)\" is\nmentioned. Are you\n\nsaying this statue is sufficient to dismiss mythology and connect \"Night\"\nto Abaia, rather than\n\nErebus?\n\n\nAbaia and the undine are clearly aquatic creatures but the suggestion is\nthat Erebus is associated\n\nwith an Antarctic mountain. For me, a statue atop an inn on the bank of a\nriver is more evocative\n\nof a mountain than water.\n\n\nMoreover, of all the possible megatherians, Abaia is mentioned the most,\nbut Erebus is a close\n\nsecond. The other candidates (Scylla, Arioch, Ouroboros, Jurpari) are\ngenerally mentioned only\n\nonce. Given this, I would expect Erebus to make some sort of appearance in\nthe story, somewhere.\n\nOtherwise, why would Wolfe mention this particular name so many times?\n\n\nI'll note that there is an old boatman in the Severian drowning scene who\nasks about a woman in\n\nthe river, though Severian (perhaps pretends to) misunderstand him.\n\n\nMuch later in the story, there is another old boatman who tells the story\nof a giant ship carrying\n\ngigantic, notably pale-skinned warriors. There are women's voices coming\nup from the water and\n\na deeper male voice also. For me, the pale-skin and giant size are\nhinting at an Antarctic mountain\n\n origin for these warriors. Perhaps what lies below the water represents\nAbaia and undines while the\n\nship and warriors above water represent Erebus.\n\n\nDefinitely ambiguous and intended to be. But I continue to think the\ndistinction between Erebus\n\nand Abaia is not as great as the distinction between one human being and\nanother (similar\n\nconnection between the gigantic Mother on Blue and Great Scylla on Urth).\n\n\nFor Tzadkiel, we have animal versions, human versions, angel versions,\nmale versions, female versions,\n\ntiny versions and cosmic-sized versions. Might this not be a clue that\nthere are Urthly creatures who\n\ncome in gigantic oceanic versions, smaller lake and river versions,\nland/mountain versions, cave versions,\n\nhuman sized versions and animal versions?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-15T18:13:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy description " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I agree " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we are on the same page." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's interference. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology and Genesis is less " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "clear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jahi is a demon and Wolfe specifically refers to Juturna as a demon in UotNS so I assume\n\nthat (and the female gender and temptress role) is your basis of connection. Given the \n\nBiblical nature of demons, I think it is a fair guess to assume they are of the same ilk.\n\n\nHere is a tummy-turner: Jahi and The Contessa Carina are played by the same actress,\n\nJolenta (echo of Juturna?). The Contessa is later in UotNS (on the Path Of Air) linked to\n\nSeverian's mother Catherine. Does that suggest anything about Severian's ancestry?\n\n\nThat speculation aside, I find a not so speculative connection between the fanged demon\n\n Jahi, played by a busty redhead in BotNS and the vampiric Jahlee who takes the form of a \n\nbusty redhead in Short Sun. I definitely think Wolfe is using SilkHorn and his retinue's travels\n\n to Urth to say something about the nature of Severian's unusual and mysterious family tree.\n\n\n(two of Borski's prime candidates for \"Severa\" are hinted at in those Silkhorn travels, Merryn\n\nthe witch and Jolenta, via Jahi and Jahlee.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "larry miller", "address": "decanus1284 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T00:58:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mind Blown!\nIs Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is also\nwhere Jonah tells the story of the \"beans\" too. The idea that Typhon was\non the Ship could be huge. If he originally was a lifeform akin to\nTzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes naming schema that any\nmythological name indicates an alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Lee wrote:\nDaniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather poetically.\nCredit to\n\nWolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being\nmistaken\n\n(or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large,\nfish-monster\n\nmouths being mistaken for caves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the\nnaviscaput was" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "about Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an interesting\nconsideration:\n\n\nThe daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had taken\nher mother,\n\n\"Night\" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with her\nprimeval god-\n\nbrother Erebus.\n\n\nSo maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd ways\nthese giant\n\ncreatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the\ndistinction between\n\ntheir identities as there would be for sexually produced, born creatures\nsuch as ourselves.\n\n\nAlso of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring of\nErebus and Nyx is\n\nthe boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in BotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common\norigin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these monsters, as\npossible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming of the\nNew Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the monsters\nbeing \"fallen\" versions of Tzadkiel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when Wolfe\nhas left gaps\n\nin the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps can\noften be filled by\n\nturning to mythology (or religion, as it were).\n\n\nSo in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the New\nSun I think a\n\ngood starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen angels\nmutinied and\n\nopposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth.\n\n\nI used that word because a \"mutiny\" is the primary storyline we see play\nout while\n\nSeverian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship politics\nany more\n\nthan we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have to\njust shrug and\n\nsay pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided they\nwould rather\n\nreign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship).\n\n\nWe are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given that\nthe \"old sailor\"\n\n Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a mutineer\non his vessel,\n\nI think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the Ship\nbut a younger\n\nversion of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth.\n\n\nGiven Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a stretch\nthat he is\n\nassociated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My guess is\nthat, in parallel\n\nto the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth originated as\nmutineers from Tzadkiel's\n\nShip. By name alone, this would include Typhon.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T12:01:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "larry miller: Mind Blown!\nIs Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is also\nwhere Jonah tells the story of the \"beans\" too. The idea that Typhon was\non the Ship could be huge. If he originally was a lifeform akin to\nTzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes naming schema that any\nmythological name indicates an alien origin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor is first introduced, (though not by name) at Agilus' execution. At\n\nfirst he seems just one of several sadists who deeply enjoy watching executions.\n\nLater, in the antechamber and beyond, Hethor makes it clear that he worships\n\nSeverian, insistently calling him \"Master\" and \"my Master\".\n\n\nBut later, when Severian meets Jonah, he notices that Hethor disappears and there\n\nis an implication that Hethor doesn't want to be recognized by his fellow-\n\nShipmate. Moreover, Severian sees characters who resemble both Hethor and \n\nJonah later on Tzadkiel's Ship.\n\n\nThere is the naming convention where mythological names are used for aliens\n\n(or more broadly, Greco-Roman names as for Inire, Cumaean, Barbatus, \n\nFamulimus and Ossipago). Regarding Hethor, we are cryptically told by \n\nAgia that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older one, that hardly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "anyone has heard of now.\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why does Hethor go on and on about Severian being his Master and seeming to\n\nworship him, but then later try to kill him? Perhaps the worship was all an act but\n\nI sometimes think Hethor wasn't really trying to kill Severian. Perhaps, being who\n\nhe is, Hethor was actually the first to recognize what Severian truly was, and his beasts\n\nwere more of a series of godhood tests rather than true assassination attempts.\n\n\nIn UotNS, on Yesod, Tzadkiel mentions that he had been Severian's acolyte in a previous\n\niteration. Does this mean he was hidden among the throngs who follow Severian when he\n\nis the Conciliator? Or perhaps is Tzadkiel the ancient name which hardly anyone has heard\n\nof? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T13:39:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hethor the perverted and debased sailor who keeps his little sex doll in\nthe closet and is manipulated by Agia, always motivated by a terrible need\nfor revenge, is not a good character fit for being related to the actual\nparagon of Urth. (Tzadkiel pretty much serves as proxy for Sev in the\ntrial).\n\nCharacterization in Wolfe is important. You can't have a stuttering blood\nthirsty persecution complex easily manipulated guy actually be the guardian\nangel of Urth without really ignoring characterization wholesale.\n\nAs far as published work on New Sun, my problem with Borski is he wants to\ncollapse all the characters into one or two and doesn't really think\nlogically and my issue with Wright is he thinks every moment of\ntranscendence is a hard determined lie, that Severian's claim that even\ndevils serve the increate is a weak excuse, which is a very\nmisrepresentational view of Wolfe in general.\n\nWright's reading of The God and His Man as a metafictional criticism of\nreaders killing the author's intention is ironically about as far off as a\nreading can get, too." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tuesday, September 16, 2014, Lee wrote:\nlarry miller: Mind Blown!\nIs Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is\nalso\nwhere Jonah tells the story of the \"beans\" too. The idea that Typhon was\non the Ship could be huge. If he originally was a lifeform akin to\nTzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes naming schema that any\nmythological name indicates an alien origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hethor is first introduced, (though not by name) at Agilus' execution. At\n\nfirst he seems just one of several sadists who deeply enjoy watching\nexecutions.\n\nLater, in the antechamber and beyond, Hethor makes it clear that he\nworships\n\nSeverian, insistently calling him \"Master\" and \"my Master\".\n\n\nBut later, when Severian meets Jonah, he notices that Hethor disappears\nand there\n\nis an implication that Hethor doesn't want to be recognized by his fellow-\n\nShipmate. Moreover, Severian sees characters who resemble both Hethor and\n\nJonah later on Tzadkiel's Ship.\n\n\nThere is the naming convention where mythological names are used for aliens\n\n(or more broadly, Greco-Roman names as for Inire, Cumaean, Barbatus,\n\nFamulimus and Ossipago). Regarding Hethor, we are cryptically told by\n\nAgia that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"His name isn't really Hethor, by the way. He says it's a much older\none, that hardly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "anyone has heard of now.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why does Hethor go on and on about Severian being his Master and seeming to\n\nworship him, but then later try to kill him? Perhaps the worship was all\nan act but\n\nI sometimes think Hethor wasn't really trying to kill Severian. Perhaps,\nbeing who\n\nhe is, Hethor was actually the first to recognize what Severian truly was,\nand his beasts\n\nwere more of a series of godhood tests rather than true assassination\nattempts.\n\n\nIn UotNS, on Yesod, Tzadkiel mentions that he had been Severian's acolyte\nin a previous\n\niteration. Does this mean he was hidden among the throngs who follow\nSeverian when he\n\nis the Conciliator? Or perhaps is Tzadkiel the ancient name which hardly\nanyone has heard\n\nof?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<54190D4B.6020905@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T04:25:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/15/2014 7:58 PM, larry miller wrote:\nMind Blown!\nIs Hethor introduced in the same chapter as Jonah? If Im right this is\nalso where Jonah tells the story of the \"beans\" too. The idea\nthat Typhon was on the Ship could be huge. If he originally was\na lifeform akin to Tzadkiel, this would certainly line up with Wolfes\nnaming schema that any mythological name indicates an alien origin.\nOn Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Lee > wrote:\n\n >Daniel Otto Jack Petersen: That's a kind of beautiful theory, Lee\n\n\n Thanks, DOJP. Ship's sails as angel wings does work rather\n poetically. Credit to\n\n Wolfe for that. I am wondering if this theme of large beings being\n mistaken\n\n (or conflated) with ships might be related to the theme of large,\n fish-monster\n\n mouths being mistaken for caves.\n\n\n >james ford: I was always under the assumption that the tale of the\n naviscaput was\n\n >about Abaia.\n\n\n Yes, I think Severian himself muses on that. But here is an\n interesting consideration:\n\n\n The daughter of the Naviscaput, Noctua, reports that her father had\n taken her mother,\n\n \"Night\" by force. In Greek mythology, Night or Nyx is mated with\n her primeval god-\n\n brother Erebus.\n\n\n So maybe the Naviscaput is Erebus instead of Abaia? Given the odd\n ways these giant\n\n creatures can reproduce themselves I'm not sure there is quite the\n distinction between\n\n their identities as there would be for sexually produced, born\n creatures such as ourselves.\n\n\n Also of interest (to me, anyway), one of the mythological offspring\n of Erebus and Nyx is\n\n the boatman of the dead, Charon. I think he makes an appearance in\n BotNS.\n\n\n >The implication of Tzadkiel and the beasts on Urth sharing a common\n >origin is great and well worth looking into. Why would these\n monsters, as\n >possible offshoots of the Hierogrammates, work against the coming\n of the\n >New Sun? What caused the schism? Or is it really as simple as the\n monsters\n >being \"fallen\" versions of Tzadkiel?\n\n\n For me, it is a general principle for the whole Sun Series that when\n Wolfe has left gaps\n\n in the story regarding mythologically named beings, that the gaps\n can often be filled by\n\n turning to mythology (or religion, as it were).\n\n\n So in trying to understand the opposition of the megatherians to the\n New Sun I think a\n\n good starting point is to understand why Lucifer and the fallen\n angels mutinied and\n\n opposed God (and Jesus) and left heaven and fell to earth.\n\n\n I used that word because a \"mutiny\" is the primary storyline we see\n play out while\n\n Severian is on Tzadkiel's Ship. Perhaps we cannot understand Ship\n politics any more\n\n than we can understand heavenly politics in the Bible. We may have\n to just shrug and\n\n say pride, power and control are the issues and these guys decided\n they would rather\n\n reign on Urth than serve in heaven (metaphor- Ship).\n\n\n We are shown one of the mutineers (jibers) resembling Hethor. Given\n that the \"old sailor\"\n\n Hethor, in his urthly ramblings, seems to say that he HAD been a\n mutineer on his vessel,\n\n I think we can safely conclude that Severian does see Hethor on the\n Ship but a younger\n\n version of him, from before they encounter each other on Urth.\n\n\n Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a\n stretch that he is\n\n associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on Urth. My\n guess is that, in parallel\n\n to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen to Urth\n originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's\n\n Ship. By name alone, this would include Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the time displaced \nConciliator, but other Hellenic names do *not* relate to Ship-sailors, \nNessus for one." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T13:02:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "<54190D4B.6020905@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hethor the perverted and debased sailor who keeps his little sex doll in\nthe closet and is manipulated by Agia, always motivated by a terrible need\nfor revenge, is not a good character fit for being related to the actual\nparagon of Urth. (Tzadkiel pretty much serves as proxy for Sev in the\ntrial)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree on two counts. First, Hethor makes a great urthly version of \n\nTzadkiel if the purpose of the form is disguise. Naturally if it really is\n\na literary disguise we, the readers, will need some means of penetrating\n\nthat disguise. I find Tzadkiel's otherwise inexplicable revelation that he \n\nhad been Severian's acolyte to be one such means of identification.\n\nI find Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, connecting him to \n\nFather Inire to be another clue that we are meant to look more closely\n\nat Hethor's identity. (Hethor and Inire also share a lecherous\n\nyen for young women). The fact that Hethor's real name is hinted at but \n\nnever revealed is another clue that we should be asking \"who is this, \n\nreally?\"\n\n\nSecond, it makes sense within the religio/mythological model I have\n\npresented. If an angel falls to earth, it becomes, by definition, a demon.\n\nAnd one of the primary characteristics of Judeo-Christian fallen angels\n\n(and their cognates, the Greco-Roman gods) is that they became obsessed\n\nwith mating with human women. It was one of the main things they do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Characterization in Wolfe is important. You can't have a stuttering blood\nthirsty persecution complex easily manipulated guy actually be the guardian\nangel of Urth without really ignoring characterization wholesale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disguised identity and extremely subtle hints for seeing through the disguise\n\nis surely a pervasive theme in Wolfe's writing. Consider Tzadkiel, perhaps the\n\nsingle most widely-disguised character in all of Wolfe's work. Severian is\n\neventually able to recognize Tzadkiel's forms ranging from a furry \n\nanimal to several human forms to several angelic forms while he is on the\n\nShip. Let's not forget the saucy \"tinker bell\" version, who would seem to share \n\nno personality traits whatsoever with the larger, male versions of Tzadkiel but\n\nis still, unquestionably, a version of Tzadkiel.\n\n\nBut we, the readers, are expected to see MORE than our unreliable narrator \n\nSeverian reports. If he can see that many versions of Tzadkiel on the Ship (and\n\nYesod and Brook Madregot) then surely we are invited to detect further versions \n\nof him/her on Urth. And if we start looking for fallen angels on Urth, the search\n\nsurely does not end with Hethor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As far as published work on New Sun, my problem with Borski is he wants to\ncollapse all the characters into one or two and doesn't really think\nlogically." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I generally agree. Borski has a great literary \"eye\" for \"dots\" but he isn't the best\n\nat connecting them. For example, he takes the single Mt. Nebo reference as a\n\nsign that Father Inire is a \"moses-figure\" without any attempt to connect that\n\nto the many, many other hints that Wolfe is using a broad palette of pre-Christian\n\nmythology to create the characters and setting for BotNS. If there was any doubt \n\nabout that, the continuation of the trend in Long Sun and Short Sun is sufficient \n\nconfirmation for me. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wright's reading of The God and His Man as a metafictional criticism of\nreaders killing the author's intention is ironically about as far off as a\nreading can get, too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wright also has a good literary eye, but interpreting Wolfe from atheistic\n\nperspective is a virtual guarantee of missing much of the author's intentions. It\n\nends up being more about Wright than Wolfe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T13:24:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a\n\nstretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on \n\nUrth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the monsters fallen \n\nto Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this would\n\ninclude Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the time displaced \nConciliator, but other Hellenic names do *not* relate to Ship-sailors, \nNessus for one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find Wolfe's usage of the name \"Nessus\" to be multi-layered brilliance. First it is a \n\nplausible derivation of the name \"Buenos Aires\", the geographical and literary (Borges) \n\nmodel for the city of Nessus.\n\n\nNext, Buenos Aires mean \"good air\" or \"fresh breezes\" but \"Nessus\" invokes the concept\n\nof poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history, overpopulation and \n\ntechnology.\n\n\nFinally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a surprisingly apt\n\nmodel for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious ancestry who finds\n\nhimself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into dangers and \n\narduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him without he\n\nbeing able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both Heracles and \n\nSeverian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can represent the\n\npoisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their ultimate\n\nelevation.\n\n\n(Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of all the positives and\n\nnegatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living in the proximity \n\naffected Wolfe and his writing) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T13:55:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of Hercules ....\n\nRomulus and Remus (Frog and Fish) are in one story fathered by Mars and in\nanother by Heracles, by the way, which might tie in to Nessus - in every\nversion a servant is tasked with killing them and places them in a basket\nto let them go downstream instead, though. Mars' birth was to Juno alone -\nFlora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe there was\nargument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies are\nprimarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think,\nthat links the story to fire (and perhaps the sun) in the tale of Frog and\nFish.\n\nThe problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon,\ntoo. In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he\nsprings from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did\nfrom her. Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and\nTyphon, which would be unfortunate.\n\nThe fish association with the lake island people is very strong - they have\nthe god Oannes and fish is continually mentioned as the motivation for the\nstrife between the shore people and the floating island folk of Pia. When\nSeverian is captured by the shore people, he cannonballs and into the water\nto activate the incendiary bullets on the boat and then swims upward like a\nfrog (which is what Mowgli's name is supposed to mean). [Pia is his age,\nhas dark hair and a slender waist, and in love is like a \"sister\" to Dorcas]\n\nThe battle between Baldanders and the Severian is actually referred to in\nthe embedded tales in at least three places as well as the dream in which\nthe little stick figures are submerged after their weapons break. In the\nStory of Frog and Fish, when Frog is challenged as a true man, the large\nShere Khan smilodon character (the butcher?) starts to challenge the\nhe-wolf who adopts Frog, and he is much bigger and stronger (he is burned\nby the fire Frog identifies as the Red Flower when he steals Frog from his\nreal family)\n\nIn Eschatology and Genesis when Nod engages the autarch, there are two\ndemons present who indicate that the seed must be destroyed - and while\nOssipago et al are three in number, one of them is different than the\nothers - a robotic servant. Even the tale of the Student and His Son, with\nits naval battle, echoes the battle between Severian and Baldanders (though\nit is the least related, with the naviscaput matching the description of\nthe thing coming down the river giving instructions at the end of Citadel\nof the Autarch.\n\nIt is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born of\nHera/Juno without a father, but then again ... Typhon does say \"No, I was\nnot born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee wrote:\nGiven Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a\n\nstretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on\n\nUrth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the\nmonsters fallen\n\nto Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone, this\nwould\n\ninclude Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the\ntime displaced\nConciliator, but other Hellenic names do *not* relate to Ship-sailors,\nNessus for one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find Wolfe's usage of the name \"Nessus\" to be multi-layered brilliance.\nFirst it is a\n\nplausible derivation of the name \"Buenos Aires\", the geographical and\nliterary (Borges)\n\nmodel for the city of Nessus.\n\n\nNext, Buenos Aires mean \"good air\" or \"fresh breezes\" but \"Nessus\"\ninvokes the concept\n\nof poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history,\noverpopulation and\n\ntechnology.\n\n\nFinally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a\nsurprisingly apt\n\nmodel for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious ancestry\nwho finds\n\nhimself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into\ndangers and\n\narduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him\nwithout he\n\nbeing able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both\nHeracles and\n\nSeverian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can\nrepresent the\n\npoisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their\nultimate\n\nelevation.\n\n\n(Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of\nall the positives and\n\nnegatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living in\nthe proximity\n\naffected Wolfe and his writing)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T14:11:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that\nthe Autarch is confused with God by Meschia. I think this is definitely\npart of the confusion between Christ, the Conciliator, and Sev that we get\nin New Sun (but not Urth) - bleeding from the forehead, water to wine,\nresurrections, etc. Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that\nscene and when the end comes Valeria is the ruler, I think the play\ndiffuses throughout New Sun in its implications.\n\nAlso, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a name\nwhich meant vine. They were supposedly created from a dead tree and its\ndead parasite by Odin and crew. Which leads me to believe that both futures\ncame true simultaneously, somehow. [the trees and lianas of Green]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nSpeaking of Hercules ....\n\nRomulus and Remus (Frog and Fish) are in one story fathered by Mars and in\nanother by Heracles, by the way, which might tie in to Nessus - in every\nversion a servant is tasked with killing them and places them in a basket\nto let them go downstream instead, though. Mars' birth was to Juno alone -\nFlora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe there was\nargument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies are\nprimarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think,\nthat links the story to fire (and perhaps the sun) in the tale of Frog and\nFish.\n\nThe problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon,\ntoo. In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he\nsprings from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did\nfrom her. Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and\nTyphon, which would be unfortunate.\n\nThe fish association with the lake island people is very strong - they\nhave the god Oannes and fish is continually mentioned as the motivation for\nthe strife between the shore people and the floating island folk of Pia.\nWhen Severian is captured by the shore people, he cannonballs and into the\nwater to activate the incendiary bullets on the boat and then swims upward\nlike a frog (which is what Mowgli's name is supposed to mean). [Pia is his\nage, has dark hair and a slender waist, and in love is like a \"sister\" to\nDorcas]\n\nThe battle between Baldanders and the Severian is actually referred to in\nthe embedded tales in at least three places as well as the dream in which\nthe little stick figures are submerged after their weapons break. In the\nStory of Frog and Fish, when Frog is challenged as a true man, the large\nShere Khan smilodon character (the butcher?) starts to challenge the\nhe-wolf who adopts Frog, and he is much bigger and stronger (he is burned\nby the fire Frog identifies as the Red Flower when he steals Frog from his\nreal family)\n\nIn Eschatology and Genesis when Nod engages the autarch, there are two\ndemons present who indicate that the seed must be destroyed - and while\nOssipago et al are three in number, one of them is different than the\nothers - a robotic servant. Even the tale of the Student and His Son, with\nits naval battle, echoes the battle between Severian and Baldanders (though\nit is the least related, with the naviscaput matching the description of\nthe thing coming down the river giving instructions at the end of Citadel\nof the Autarch.\n\nIt is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born of\nHera/Juno without a father, but then again ... Typhon does say \"No, I was\nnot born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it.\"\n\nOn Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a\n\nstretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on\n\nUrth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the\nmonsters fallen\n\nto Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone,\nthis would\n\ninclude Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the\ntime displaced\nConciliator, but other Hellenic names do *not* relate to Ship-sailors,\nNessus for one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find Wolfe's usage of the name \"Nessus\" to be multi-layered brilliance.\nFirst it is a\n\nplausible derivation of the name \"Buenos Aires\", the geographical and\nliterary (Borges)\n\nmodel for the city of Nessus.\n\n\nNext, Buenos Aires mean \"good air\" or \"fresh breezes\" but \"Nessus\"\ninvokes the concept\n\nof poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history,\noverpopulation and\n\ntechnology.\n\n\nFinally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a\nsurprisingly apt\n\nmodel for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious\nancestry who finds\n\nhimself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into\ndangers and\n\narduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him\nwithout he\n\nbeing able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both\nHeracles and\n\nSeverian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can\nrepresent the\n\npoisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their\nultimate\n\nelevation.\n\n\n(Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of\nall the positives and\n\nnegatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living in\nthe proximity\n\naffected Wolfe and his writing)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T14:17:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course in the Ash/Ask myths, he was the first man rather than the last." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 7:11 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnother thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that\nthe Autarch is confused with God by Meschia. I think this is definitely\npart of the confusion between Christ, the Conciliator, and Sev that we get\nin New Sun (but not Urth) - bleeding from the forehead, water to wine,\nresurrections, etc. Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that\nscene and when the end comes Valeria is the ruler, I think the play\ndiffuses throughout New Sun in its implications.\n\nAlso, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a\nname which meant vine. They were supposedly created from a dead tree and\nits dead parasite by Odin and crew. Which leads me to believe that both\nfutures came true simultaneously, somehow. [the trees and lianas of Green]\n\n\nOn Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:55 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speaking of Hercules ....\n\nRomulus and Remus (Frog and Fish) are in one story fathered by Mars and\nin another by Heracles, by the way, which might tie in to Nessus - in every\nversion a servant is tasked with killing them and places them in a basket\nto let them go downstream instead, though. Mars' birth was to Juno alone -\nFlora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe there was\nargument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies are\nprimarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think,\nthat links the story to fire (and perhaps the sun) in the tale of Frog and\nFish.\n\nThe problem is that there are two origin stories for the monster Typhon,\ntoo. In one he is born of Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he\nsprings from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a father, just as Mars did\nfrom her. Perhaps there is a conflation in the story between Mars and\nTyphon, which would be unfortunate.\n\nThe fish association with the lake island people is very strong - they\nhave the god Oannes and fish is continually mentioned as the motivation for\nthe strife between the shore people and the floating island folk of Pia.\nWhen Severian is captured by the shore people, he cannonballs and into the\nwater to activate the incendiary bullets on the boat and then swims upward\nlike a frog (which is what Mowgli's name is supposed to mean). [Pia is his\nage, has dark hair and a slender waist, and in love is like a \"sister\" to\nDorcas]\n\nThe battle between Baldanders and the Severian is actually referred to in\nthe embedded tales in at least three places as well as the dream in which\nthe little stick figures are submerged after their weapons break. In the\nStory of Frog and Fish, when Frog is challenged as a true man, the large\nShere Khan smilodon character (the butcher?) starts to challenge the\nhe-wolf who adopts Frog, and he is much bigger and stronger (he is burned\nby the fire Frog identifies as the Red Flower when he steals Frog from his\nreal family)\n\nIn Eschatology and Genesis when Nod engages the autarch, there are two\ndemons present who indicate that the seed must be destroyed - and while\nOssipago et al are three in number, one of them is different than the\nothers - a robotic servant. Even the tale of the Student and His Son, with\nits naval battle, echoes the battle between Severian and Baldanders (though\nit is the least related, with the naviscaput matching the description of\nthe thing coming down the river giving instructions at the end of Citadel\nof the Autarch.\n\nIt is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars are possibly both born\nof Hera/Juno without a father, but then again ... Typhon does say \"No, I\nwas not born as I am, or born at all, as you meant it.\"\n\nOn Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:24 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Given Hethor's mastery of mirrors and monsters, I don't find it a\n\nstretch that he is associated with the fallen angels/demons who reside on\n\nUrth. My guess is that, in parallel to the Biblical story, all of the\nmonsters fallen\n\nto Urth originated as mutineers from Tzadkiel's Ship. By name alone,\nthis would\n\ninclude Typhon." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: This would explain Typhon's rapid apprehension of the\ntime displaced\nConciliator, but other Hellenic names do *not* relate to Ship-sailors,\nNessus for one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I find Wolfe's usage of the name \"Nessus\" to be multi-layered\nbrilliance. First it is a\n\nplausible derivation of the name \"Buenos Aires\", the geographical and\nliterary (Borges)\n\nmodel for the city of Nessus.\n\n\nNext, Buenos Aires mean \"good air\" or \"fresh breezes\" but \"Nessus\"\ninvokes the concept\n\nof poison. A not-so-subtle commentary on the effects of long history,\noverpopulation and\n\ntechnology.\n\n\nFinally, Nessus invokes the Greek story of Heracles, whom I find to be a\nsurprisingly apt\n\nmodel for Severian. Like Heracles, Severian is born of mysterious\nancestry who finds\n\nhimself endowed with divine power but spends his life being pushed into\ndangers and\n\narduous tasks because of godly politics from above which manipulate him\nwithout he\n\nbeing able to clearly understand why. And, of course, ultimately both\nHeracles and\n\nSeverian are elevated to godhood themselves. In a sense, Nessus can\nrepresent the\n\npoisoned cloak that both Heracles and Severian had to shed before their\nultimate\n\nelevation.\n\n\n(Chicago is a long-time, densely populated, multi-cultural city full of\nall the positives and\n\nnegatives that any large city provides. I often wonder how much living\nin the proximity\n\naffected Wolfe and his writing)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5419A792.2010908@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T15:24:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/17/2014 9:17 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nOf course in the Ash/Ask myths, he was the first man rather than the last." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps the Father Ash future also has rebirth when the red giant Old \nSun begins to embrace his children, melting the ice then crisping their \ncrusts... Ask/Baldur springs anew from the ashes just in time to freeze \nover again." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T15:32:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "<5419A792.2010908@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I rather fancy that what Wolfe was doing there is related to the metaphor\nof the Amphisbaena related by Ossipago et al. The head of creation is\nbeing worried and eaten by the head of destruction, but if the head of\ndestruction is killed, the entire serpent dies completely. Man as we\nunderstand him will die, but something continues ... perhaps the two\nfutures, save for the ice, are not actually as disparate as they at first\nappear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 9/17/2014 9:17 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course in the Ash/Ask myths, he was the first man rather than the last." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the Father Ash future also has rebirth when the red giant Old Sun\nbegins to embrace his children, melting the ice then crisping their\ncrusts... Ask/Baldur springs anew from the ashes just in time to freeze\nover again.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T18:21:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't believe" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "there was argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose ceremonies" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "are primarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I think, that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "links the story to fire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it might be worth a mention to any who may not be so familiar with Kipling\n\nthat the \"red flower\" is used in the Jungle Book, with Mowgli-Frog, Shere Khan, etc.\n\nto refer to fire, it being Man's special gift.\n\n\nThe special gift of fire as conferred by a superior being is best known in the Prometheus\n\nstory but that story has echoes in the Judeo-Christian tales of Lucifer, the light bringer and \n\nAzazel the (scape)goat god/demon who, like Prometheus is chained to a rock for his interference\n\nwith humanity.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure Wolfe is aware of these alternately sympathetic and nefarioius views of the \n\nfire/light bringing deity among ancient peoples. I think this may be part of what is behind\n\nthe admonition to Severian that what is happening to him and Urth is more than just a battle\n\nbetween \"good\" and \"evil\". There has been much recognition on this board in the past that\n\nboth \"good\" and \"evil\" end up serving God's plan equally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that the Autarch is " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "confused with God by Meschia. ........ Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He is played by Dr. Talos who also plays the part of archangel Gabriel. When you consider\n\nDr. Talos' detailed familiarity with cosmic knowledge, his knowledge of Earth, his skills in\n\nbeautification, his amazing artistic and literary skills, his association with the \"godling\"\n\nBaldanders and his mythological name, I find little doubt that he is in some way \n\nassociated with the other pagan gods/aliens/fallen angels who roam the Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a name which meant vine. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They were supposedly created from a dead tree and its dead parasite by Odin and crew. Which" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " l>eads me to believe that both futures came true simultaneously, somehow. [the trees and lianas" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Green]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More broadly, I would mention that when Severian travels the Brook Madregot, he finds that it \n\nonly branches travelling upstream, not downstream. Leading me to the conclusion that in this\n\nuniverse, a common past may indeed lead to multiple futures which all exist. Master Ash \n\ndisappears when Severian drags him into the branching in which the New Sun appears. If he\n\nhad somehow dragged Ash across the frozen plain of Urth's atmosphere, I presume he would\n\nnot have disappeared. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T18:29:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One thing I wanted to mention is Wolfe's reliance on Remembrance of Things\nPast ... some of the greatest lines \"time turns our lies into truths\" \"love\nis the only divinity\" \" the real world is a construction of the mind\" etc.\nare taken directly from the volume titled The Fugitive (instead of eating a\nmadeleine to attain memories, he eats a Chatelaine, and the letter Marcel\nperceives as one from dead Albertine leads him to believe she is not dead\njust as the Agia/Thecla letter let Severian fool himself) But there is a\nvery important scene in the novel where Gilberte has married St. Loupe, and\nthe two paths that Marcel had romanticized in his youth (Swann's Way and\nthe Guermentes Way) are revealed to be ultimately the same path, leading to\nthe same place.\n\nThe future of the New Sun is ironically one which would probably be little\ndifferent than the one Abaia wants: mankind dead, the Urth flooded. Who\nreally won? the paths are almost the same in the final analysis, serving\nthe will of the pancreator, though even the incomprehensible hieros\nthemselves are infinitely below Him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 11:21 AM, Lee wrote:\nMarc Aramini: Flora attained a magic flower to impregnate her. I can't\nbelieve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "there was argument on the list about Spring Wind being Mars, whose\nceremonies" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "are primarily in March. Making it a red flower is Wolfe's innovation, I\nthink, that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "links the story to fire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it might be worth a mention to any who may not be so familiar\nwith Kipling\n\nthat the \"red flower\" is used in the Jungle Book, with Mowgli-Frog, Shere\nKhan, etc.\n\nto refer to fire, it being Man's special gift.\n\n\nThe special gift of fire as conferred by a superior being is best known in\nthe Prometheus\n\nstory but that story has echoes in the Judeo-Christian tales of Lucifer,\nthe light bringer and\n\nAzazel the (scape)goat god/demon who, like Prometheus is chained to a rock\nfor his interference\n\nwith humanity.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure Wolfe is aware of these alternately sympathetic and\nnefarioius views of the\n\nfire/light bringing deity among ancient peoples. I think this may be part\nof what is behind\n\nthe admonition to Severian that what is happening to him and Urth is more\nthan just a battle\n\nbetween \"good\" and \"evil\". There has been much recognition on this board\nin the past that\n\nboth \"good\" and \"evil\" end up serving God's plan equally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is\nthat the Autarch is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "confused with God by Meschia. ........ Even though the autarch is not\nplayed by Sev in that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "scene." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He is played by Dr. Talos who also plays the part of archangel Gabriel.\nWhen you consider\n\nDr. Talos' detailed familiarity with cosmic knowledge, his knowledge of\nEarth, his skills in\n\nbeautification, his amazing artistic and literary skills, his association\nwith the \"godling\"\n\nBaldanders and his mythological name, I find little doubt that he is in\nsome way\n\nassociated with the other pagan gods/aliens/fallen angels who roam the\nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, the last man's name of Ash (teutonic Ask) whose wife Embla had a\nname which meant vine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They were supposedly created from a dead tree and its dead parasite by\nOdin and crew. Which" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " l>eads me to believe that both futures came true simultaneously, somehow.\n[the trees and lianas" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of Green]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More broadly, I would mention that when Severian travels the Brook\nMadregot, he finds that it\n\nonly branches travelling upstream, not downstream. Leading me to the\nconclusion that in this\n\nuniverse, a common past may indeed lead to multiple futures which all\nexist. Master Ash\n\ndisappears when Severian drags him into the branching in which the New Sun\nappears. If he\n\nhad somehow dragged Ash across the frozen plain of Urth's atmosphere, I\npresume he would\n\nnot have disappeared.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-18T14:56:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "<54190D4B.6020905@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Folks," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Monday 15 September 2014, larry miller wrote:\n. . . Wolfes naming schema that any mythologi-\ncal name indicates an alien origin. . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's be clear before there's any more confusion: Wolfe writes, on\npage 43 of the book-club edition of _The Castle of the Otter_, on the\nfirst page of his essay, \"Onomastics, the Study of Names\":\n\n\"The names of human beings in _The Book of the New Sun_ are just human\nnames. (I can think of only one exception--Loyal to the Group of\nSeventeen, the Ascian who appears in _The Citadel of the Autarch_.) .\n. . The monsters are named for monsters.\"\n\nSo any mythological quality of a human name should not affect the\ncharacter's human identity. Ones named Oedipus, Atreus, Agamemnon,\nMenelaus, Patroclus, Odysseus, or even Theseus, for example, would\nstill be human. For that matter, some people might consider Dorcas\nand Jonas mythological names--though not from Greek mythology, of\ncourse.\n\nSimilarly, Typhon is certainly a monster, whether his origin is human\n(and, like Baldanders, he made of himself a monster, as I believe) or\notherwise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And on Wednesday 17 September 2014, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThe problem is that there are two origin stories\nfor the monster Typhon, too. In one he is born\nof Mother Earth and Tartaros, in the other ... he\nsprings from Hera (who is Juno) alone, without a\nfather, just as Mars did from her. Perhaps there\nis a conflation in the story between Mars and Ty-\nphon, which would be unfortunate.\n\n[snip]\n\nIt is very very unfortunate that Typhon and Mars\nare possibly both born of Hera/Juno without a fa-\nther, but then again ... Typhon does say \"No, I\nwas not born as I am, or born at all, as you\nmeant it.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note that later in the essay, on page 45, Wolfe also writes:\n\n\"Are Typhon and Piaton one monster? Their names say they are not.\nPiaton has a human name. Typhon bears the name of a classical giant\nwho breathed fire and was one of the chief enemies of the gods. The\ntyphoon has blown his name into the modern world. Some commentaries\nmake him the son of Zeus and Niobe (well, that's what Niobe said), and\nthe wicked brother of the Egyptian Osiris, whom he murdered. . . .\nOther commentaries--and in mythology, there are always others--say he\nwas conceived by Hera without male assistance. (My own bet is that\nshe just wanted to forget that guy.) He is often confused with\nTyphoeus, son of Gaea and Tartarus, who had wings and the body of a\nsnake. When two boys look so much alike, you're bound to get them\nmixed up.\"\n\nSo we at least know what background Wolfe was using when he named\nTyphon, and that he distinguished Typhon, who may be born of Hera\nalone, from Typhoeus, who is the offspring of Gaea and Tartaros.\n\nIncidentally, in the same essay, on page 44, Wolfe writes: \"If Erebus\nis a cold monster, his partner Abaia is his opposite. The original\nAbaia was a giant eel inhabiting the waters of the South Pacific.\nNever one to overlook the obvious, I've supplied our Abaia with giant\nundines for concubines.\"\n\nI hope that this information proves helpful.\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-19T02:53:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Another thing from Eschatology and Genesis that strikes the reader is that the Autarch" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is confused with God by Meschia..... Even though the autarch is not played by Sev in that scene ......" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Autarch is played by Dr. Talos as is the Archangel Gabriel. I find this to be especially significant\n\ngiven Talos' name as a mythological monster. Talos' character has preternatural knowledge of \n\ncosmic history and of Earth. Add to that his amazing literary and stagecraft gifts and his powers of\n\nbeautification and I find it easy to associate him with other mythological god/demon/monster\n\ncharacters.\n\n\nDespite the mythological connection of angels to demons (cognate to pagan gods), I know some find\n\nit difficult to consider that the lofty archangel-name Tzadkiel might be related to some of the more \n\nloathsome beings found on Urth. But for me, Dr. Talos playing Gabriel is another clue to the connection. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-19T03:27:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman: I hope that this information proves helpful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is Mark.\n\nThough I will disagree with one of your interpretations from it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gene Wolfe: Typhon bears the name of a classical giant\nwho breathed fire and was one of the chief enemies of the gods. The\ntyphoon has blown his name into the modern world. Some commentaries\nmake him the son of Zeus and Niobe (well, that's what Niobe said), and\nthe wicked brother of the Egyptian Osiris, whom he murdered. . . .\nOther commentaries--and in mythology, there are always others--say he\nwas conceived by Hera without male assistance. (My own bet is that\nshe just wanted to forget that guy.) He is often confused with\nTyphoeus, son of Gaea and Tartarus, who had wings and the body of a\nsnake. When two boys look so much alike, you're bound to get them\nmixed up.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "MM: So we at least know what background Wolfe was using when he named\nTyphon, and that he distinguished Typhon, who may be born of Hera\nalone, from Typhoeus, who is the offspring of Gaea and Tartaros." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree that Wolfe is truly distinguishing these two. I think, by \n\nmentioning Typhon Seth from Egyptian mythology (a hot desert\n\nwind god) he is invoking the concept of \"epithets\" i.e. the idea that \n\na certain god often had multiple names reflecting geographic and\n\nhistorical variations in the focus of worship of the god.\n\n\nIf Wolfe truly meant to distinguish Typhon from Typhoeus, why, in Long Sun,\n\nwould he give Pas/Typhon a wife named Echidna? She is the wife of the son of \n\nGaea and Tartaros, Typhoeus, not the \"Typhon\" identified above. I think Wolfe's\n\noverall purpose is to recognize conflation of the gods not to emphasize their \n\nseparate, distinct name/nature. These guys, (like angels, like Tzadkiel) were giant, \n\nplural beings with multiple names and multiple forms. This is important to Wolfe\n\nand his religious philosophy for reasons mentioned below.\n\n\nFWIW, Wikipedia says this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Typhon" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon (/?ta?f?n, -f?n/; Greek: ?????, Tuph?n [typ????n]), also Typhoeus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(/ta??fi??s/; ???????, Tuph?eus), Typhaon (??????, Tupha?n) or Typhos (?????, Tuph’s)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "was the deadliest monster of Greek mythology. The last son of Gaia, fathered by Tartarus, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "he was known as the \"Father of All Monsters\"; his wife Echidna was likewise the \"Mother " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of All Monsters.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would Wolfe choose the alternate name \"Pas\" for Typhon, explicitly explaining\n\nthat the word is grammatically associated with the word/god Pan? Why would he explicitly\n\nexplain that The Outsider is associated with Dionysus, who is associated with Pan......etc.\n\n\n\nI truly think Wolfe used the idea of electronic cards to represent Whorl gods as a metaphor\n\nmeaning that gods are able to be shuffled and redealt as history progresses. Thus the pagan\n\ngods the ancients worships were not just imaginary or entirely disconnected from the Judeo-\n\nChristian God. They were, in some way, an earlier version of Him.\n\n\n\nIf the ancients made the mistake of worshipping fallen angels/demons instead of Jehovah, \n\nWolfe appears sympathetic and finds it an easy mistake for them to have made. They were\n\nlarge, supernatural beings who demanded to be worshipped. The Flood and the coming of \n\nJesus were steps toward helping humanity recognize the true God. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "markjmillman at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-20T00:39:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dear Lee," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thursday 18 September 2014, you wrote:\n. . . I will disagree with one of your interpre-\ntations . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ". . . [W]e at least know . . .\nWolfe . . . distinguished\nTyphon . . . from Typhoeus . . ." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree that Wolfe is truly distinguishing\nthese two. . . ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, fair enough. It's also possible that Wolfe distinguished\nbetween them while writing New Sun, but later changed his mind and\ndecided to conflate them in Long Sun and Short Sun." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I truly think Wolfe used the idea of elec-\ntronic cards to represent Whorl gods as a\nmetaphor meaning that gods are able to be\nshuffled and redealt as history progresses.\nThus the pagan gods the ancients worships\nwere not just imaginary or entirely discon-\nnected from the Judeo-Christian God. They\nwere, in some way, an earlier version of Him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or, at least, the impulse to worship them was a step toward\nworshipping the true G-d, as you go on to suggest:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the ancients made the mistake of worship-\nping fallen angels/demons instead of Jeho-\nvah, Wolfe appears sympathetic and finds\nit an easy mistake for them to have made.\nThey were large, supernatural beings who\ndemanded to be worshipped. The Flood and\nthe coming of Jesus were steps toward\nhelping humanity recognize the true God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree with you on many, many issues in interpreting Wolfe, but I\nagree that Wolfe sees progress toward religious enlightenment (and\nprobably most other desirable ends as well) as incremental and\ncontingent (in the historical sense; i.e., that actions and events are\nshaped by and reflect their environments).\n\nBest,\n\nMark Millman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-20T13:59:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Changed my mind about the mine thing. The man apes serve the autarch and\nguard his treasure there, as the pandours in the wall at the Piteous Gate\ndo, built as defense against the persumptious \"throwing black beans in the\nsea\" lady from offworld, as Jonas was getting at before they were so rudely\ninterrupted.\n\nSeverian asks Jonas about BOTH events after his return from the mine at\nSaltus, and asks how man sized soldiers could ever fight enormous beasts.\nThe chains clanking in the dark, though they evoke a binding, could also be\nthe chains which move an enormous mechanical thing, like the walking tower\nwhich Severian sees in chapter XXI or thereabouts in Citadel (don't have\nthe book with me right now). In the next chapter the Autarch shows up on a\ngiant elephantine steed and the footsteps make Sev think of the thing he\nawoke in the cave near Saltus. The footsteps are of a beast bound to the\nautarch's will in that chapter, and perhaps the proximity to the giant\ntower and the fact that the man-apes, the pandours at the wall, and the\ncave as a treasure horde of the autarch, even though it seems to indicate\na binding, is in fact a hidden last line of defense that allows the autarch\nto fight the giants with something beyond man-sized soldiers. Thus, it is\nBaldanders' nightmare because it will serve Severian and the Autarch.\nPerhaps his closed lipped reticence to discuss the gate and the mine\ninvolve the security measures of the Autarch, something he is reluctant to\ngo over in detail. (First Sev sees the man-apes as enemies - perhaps all of\nthe powers that the autarch binds to himself have this slightly inimical\nquality to them).\n\nAlso, in hindsight it is pretty clear Jahi is supposed to be Juturna ... at\none point in the play she metafictionally says something to the effect, \"in\nreal life I'm bigger than everyone!\" I don't know how that didn't\nconsciously register with me before. So the talk of the demons to the\nautarch reveals Juturna's motivations and mission." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Lee wrote:\nMarc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy\ndescription" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I\nagree" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear in\nthe text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think we are on the same page." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's\ninterference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology\nand Genesis is less" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "clear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jahi is a demon and Wolfe specifically refers to Juturna as a demon in\nUotNS so I assume\n\nthat (and the female gender and temptress role) is your basis of\nconnection. Given the\n\nBiblical nature of demons, I think it is a fair guess to assume they are\nof the same ilk.\n\n\nHere is a tummy-turner: Jahi and The Contessa Carina are played by the\nsame actress,\n\nJolenta (echo of Juturna?). The Contessa is later in UotNS (on the Path Of\nAir) linked to\n\nSeverian's mother Catherine. Does that suggest anything about Severian's\nancestry?\n\n\nThat speculation aside, I find a not so speculative connection between\nthe fanged demon\n\n Jahi, played by a busty redhead in BotNS and the vampiric Jahlee who\ntakes the form of a\n\nbusty redhead in Short Sun. I definitely think Wolfe is using SilkHorn and\nhis retinue's travels\n\n to Urth to say something about the nature of Severian's unusual and\nmysterious family tree.\n\n\n(two of Borski's prime candidates for \"Severa\" are hinted at in those\nSilkhorn travels, Merryn\n\nthe witch and Jolenta, via Jahi and Jahlee.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-20T14:01:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"presumptuous\", of course - sorry. And I never gave any credence to\nJolenta's possibility as a sibling. At all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Sep 20, 2014 at 6:59 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nChanged my mind about the mine thing. The man apes serve the autarch and\nguard his treasure there, as the pandours in the wall at the Piteous Gate\ndo, built as defense against the persumptious \"throwing black beans in the\nsea\" lady from offworld, as Jonas was getting at before they were so rudely\ninterrupted.\n\nSeverian asks Jonas about BOTH events after his return from the mine at\nSaltus, and asks how man sized soldiers could ever fight enormous beasts.\nThe chains clanking in the dark, though they evoke a binding, could also be\nthe chains which move an enormous mechanical thing, like the walking tower\nwhich Severian sees in chapter XXI or thereabouts in Citadel (don't have\nthe book with me right now). In the next chapter the Autarch shows up on a\ngiant elephantine steed and the footsteps make Sev think of the thing he\nawoke in the cave near Saltus. The footsteps are of a beast bound to the\nautarch's will in that chapter, and perhaps the proximity to the giant\ntower and the fact that the man-apes, the pandours at the wall, and the\ncave as a treasure horde of the autarch, even though it seems to indicate\na binding, is in fact a hidden last line of defense that allows the autarch\nto fight the giants with something beyond man-sized soldiers. Thus, it is\nBaldanders' nightmare because it will serve Severian and the Autarch.\nPerhaps his closed lipped reticence to discuss the gate and the mine\ninvolve the security measures of the Autarch, something he is reluctant to\ngo over in detail. (First Sev sees the man-apes as enemies - perhaps all of\nthe powers that the autarch binds to himself have this slightly inimical\nquality to them).\n\nAlso, in hindsight it is pretty clear Jahi is supposed to be Juturna ...\nat one point in the play she metafictionally says something to the effect,\n\"in real life I'm bigger than everyone!\" I don't know how that didn't\nconsciously register with me before. So the talk of the demons to the\nautarch reveals Juturna's motivations and mission.\n\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:13 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc Aramini: That thing under the mine might very well be one of these" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Abaia/Erebus/Arioch creatures stirred to wakefulness. The toothy\ndescription" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "of the cave formation really does match Baldander's dream pretty well. I\nagree" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "there is very little distinction between all these guys as they appear\nin the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think we are on the same page." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Undines are associated with Night in that first scene through Juturna's\ninterference." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whether she is actually related to the Lilith like Jahi in Eschatology\nand Genesis is less" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "clear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jahi is a demon and Wolfe specifically refers to Juturna as a demon in\nUotNS so I assume\n\nthat (and the female gender and temptress role) is your basis of\nconnection. Given the\n\nBiblical nature of demons, I think it is a fair guess to assume they are\nof the same ilk.\n\n\nHere is a tummy-turner: Jahi and The Contessa Carina are played by the\nsame actress,\n\nJolenta (echo of Juturna?). The Contessa is later in UotNS (on the Path\nOf Air) linked to\n\nSeverian's mother Catherine. Does that suggest anything about Severian's\nancestry?\n\n\nThat speculation aside, I find a not so speculative connection between\nthe fanged demon\n\n Jahi, played by a busty redhead in BotNS and the vampiric Jahlee who\ntakes the form of a\n\nbusty redhead in Short Sun. I definitely think Wolfe is using SilkHorn\nand his retinue's travels\n\n to Urth to say something about the nature of Severian's unusual and\nmysterious family tree.\n\n\n(two of Borski's prime candidates for \"Severa\" are hinted at in those\nSilkhorn travels, Merryn\n\nthe witch and Jolenta, via Jahi and Jahlee.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<541D9DBD.2010705@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-20T15:31:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/18/2014 10:27 PM, Lee wrote:\nIf Wolfe truly meant to distinguish Typhon from Typhoeus, why, in Long Sun,\n\nwould he give Pas/Typhon a wife named Echidna? She is the wife of the son of\n\nGaea and Tartaros, Typhoeus, not the \"Typhon\" identified above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps to subtextually indicate that something is not right with the \nfalse divinities of the Whorl." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-22T12:51:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "<541D9DBD.2010705@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree that Wolfe is truly distinguishing these two. . . . " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mark Millman: Well, fair enough. It's also possible that Wolfe distinguished\nbetween them while writing New Sun, but later changed his mind and\ndecided to conflate them in Long Sun and Short Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed, this is a possibility." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus the pagan gods the ancients worships were not just imaginary or entirely" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "disconnected from the Judeo-Christian God. They were, in some way, an earlier " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "version of Him. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or, at least, the impulse to worship them was a step toward\nworshipping the true G-d, as you go on to suggest:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree there is a mixed message sense on this issue. On the one hand, Wolfe\n\nseems to make clear in his writing and in interviews that he considers the \n\nworship of pagan gods (including the fictional Abaia and Pas) as false, wrongful\n\nworship.\n\n\nOn the other hand he continues to include mythological elements which seem\n\nto herald or presage Christianity such as The Cumaean (Sibyl) and linking The\n\nOutsider explicitly to Dionysus, syncretic worship (especially the Roman version)\n\netc.\n\n\nGiven his emphasis on the importance of names, I would like to ask Wolfe what\n\nconnection he sees between the Jupiterian epithet \"Jove\" and the name of the \n\nJudeo-Christian God Jahweh or Jehovah. It is just a naming similarity or is there\n\nmore to it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I disagree with you on many, many issues in interpreting Wolfe, but I\nagree that Wolfe sees progress toward religious enlightenment (and\nprobably most other desirable ends as well) as incremental and\ncontingent (in the historical sense; i.e., that actions and events are\nshaped by and reflect their environments)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, full agreement from me there. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-22T14:10:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tzadkiel's form", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Wolfe truly meant to distinguish Typhon from Typhoeus, why, in Long Sun,\nwould he give Pas/Typhon a wife named Echidna? She is the wife of the son of\nGaea and Tartaros, Typhoeus, not the \"Typhon\" identified above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: Perhaps to subtextually indicate that something is not right with the \nfalse divinities of the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Urgh. I hope that isn't true. If so, it would have Wolfe predicating a really major theme\n\nin his work on his audience knowing that he considers Typhon and Typhoeus to be different \n\ngod/monsters and ignoring that most mainstream sources consider them to be the same." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: .... In the next chapter the Autarch shows up on a giant elephantine steed and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the footsteps make Sev think of the thing he awoke in the cave near Saltus..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In UotNS, during the end of Typhon's rule, Saltus mine is just starting to be dug. Later, \n\nback in SotL, Typhon seems surprised and unware of the powers in the ocean so I don't\n\nsuppose he started digging Saltus mine to house protectors against giant megatherians. \n\nYou are suggesting an Autarch co-opted the mine for this purpose?\n\n\nGiven its placement, the opposite seems more likely to me. The wall was built to protect\n\nNessus from such creatures as the gigantic presence below the Saltus cave. Of course there\n\nare always the Ascians to consider. But if the circular wall around Nessus protects from giant\n\nsea-beings why not also giant land beings from the other direction?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, in hindsight it is pretty clear Jahi is supposed to be Juturna ... at one point in the play she " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "metafictionally says something to the effect, \"in real life I'm bigger than everyone!\" ...So the talk " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of the demons to the autarch reveals Juturna's motivations and mission." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is a reasonable assessment. Large size is a hallmark of all pagan gods/demons but Jahi\n\nand Juturna are both of the succubus variety, being in a seductive, female form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And I never gave any credence to Jolenta's possibility as a sibling. At all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still do. Merryn remains a candidate also but we have to wonder why she is fully grown when \n\nSeverian visits the Witches' Tower when he is a boy. Same in RttW. How can she be a twin if she\n\nis older?\n\n\nJolenta is Severian's age. Plus if Jolenta is a stage name it would explain why she isn't named \n\n\"Severa\". There is also the incest angle. Do Severian's incestual encounters begin and end with \n\nDorcas? If there are others, more grist to the \"Jolenta as Severa\" mill.\n\n\nBorski's hair color scheme for determining Severian's family by itself it pretty sketchy. But added to \n\nother evidence, I have to give the theory a definite maybe. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }