{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6670", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6670, "subject": "Plant/Animal", "messages": 16, "voices": 4, "first": "2014-09-15T18:46:16+00:00", "last": "2014-09-22T13:21:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-15T18:46:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Spring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I obviously hadn't read that since I devised the man-tree hybrid scheme " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Short Sun. Definitely those embedded stories would have told us the real " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "plot and its denouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was never " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "written, but they are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic blending of stories " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "of Mowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose without thorns, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the Conciliator probably winds up " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "being the thorn of a flower dipped in his blood." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC you connect this theme to the Vironese custom of plant naming of women and animal\n\nnaming of men. Also to the connection between botanic parasitic vine/multi-limbed trees \n\nand the zoological parasitic inhumi/multi-limbed Neighbors.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure you've mentioned noticing that early in Shadow of the Torturer, Severian \n\ndescribes anticipating a certain light (New Sun) which \"engendered life in whatever \n\nobjects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender legs and waving feelers...\"\n\n\nI think you've connected all this to the original Transfiguration which involved Jesus emitting\n\nmystic beams of light signifying his (Conciliatory) status as bridge between heaven and earth.\n\nThe Transfiguration continuing to be symbolized by a conversion of the grape and grain plant\n\nproducts to the animal products of blood and flesh.\n\n\nBut I am hoping you include also the Green Man in the constellation of elements to this theme.\n\nNot only because of his combined nature of plant and animal essence, and his ostensible origin \n\nfrom the New Sun light. \n\n\nBut also because of The Green Man as a pagan deity connected to Great God Pan and Dionysus \n\nworship for which there are undertones and hints throughout the entire Sun Series and which \n\nprobably represents the connection between Judeo-pagan wine reverence and its importance to \n\nChristianity.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-15T19:26:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes ... it seems that Spring Wind is much more Green Man than Typhon ...\nand I have noted the Green Man feeds off the light of the New Sun in\nsomething I am writing up now.\n\nThe story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital to\nthe Short Sun universe ... somehow this Spring Wind story is its opposite,\nI think. A cyclic kind of communion is implied. fruit to wine to blood,\nreturning to flowers. Severian's blood on that thorn also somehow\ncompletes the Eucharistic cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Lee wrote:\nMarc Aramini: Spring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I obviously hadn't read that since I devised the man-tree hybrid scheme" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of Short Sun. Definitely those embedded stories would have told us the\nreal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "plot and its denouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was never" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "written, but they are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic blending\nof stories" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "of Mowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose\nwithout thorns," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the Conciliator\nprobably winds up" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "being the thorn of a flower dipped in his blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "IIRC you connect this theme to the Vironese custom of plant naming of\nwomen and animal\n\nnaming of men. Also to the connection between botanic parasitic\nvine/multi-limbed trees\n\nand the zoological parasitic inhumi/multi-limbed Neighbors.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure you've mentioned noticing that early in Shadow of the\nTorturer, Severian\n\ndescribes anticipating a certain light (New Sun) which \"engendered life in\nwhatever\n\nobjects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender legs\nand waving feelers...\"\n\n\nI think you've connected all this to the original Transfiguration which\ninvolved Jesus emitting\n\nmystic beams of light signifying his (Conciliatory) status as bridge\nbetween heaven and earth.\n\nThe Transfiguration continuing to be symbolized by a conversion of the\ngrape and grain plant\n\nproducts to the animal products of blood and flesh.\n\n\nBut I am hoping you include also the Green Man in the constellation of\nelements to this theme.\n\nNot only because of his combined nature of plant and animal essence, and\nhis ostensible origin\n\nfrom the New Sun light.\n\n\nBut also because of The Green Man as a pagan deity connected to Great God\nPan and Dionysus\n\nworship for which there are undertones and hints throughout the entire Sun\nSeries and which\n\nprobably represents the connection between Judeo-pagan wine reverence and\nits importance to\n\nChristianity.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T15:02:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anyway, as I think Andrew Mason surmised long ago, the half vegetable\nSpring Wind is Mars/March, son of Early Summer/June/Juno, Bird of the Wood\nis Rheas Silvia (whom Mars begets Romulus and Remus upon) ...\nso how is the Green Man related to Mars? The name of Mars is Verthandi now,\neh? hmmm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:\nYes ... it seems that Spring Wind is much more Green Man than Typhon ...\nand I have noted the Green Man feeds off the light of the New Sun in\nsomething I am writing up now.\n\nThe story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital to\nthe Short Sun universe ... somehow this Spring Wind story is its opposite,\nI think. A cyclic kind of communion is implied. fruit to wine to blood,\nreturning to flowers. Severian's blood on that thorn also somehow\ncompletes the Eucharistic cycle.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Marc Aramini: Spring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I obviously hadn't read that since I devised the man-tree hybrid scheme" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "of Short Sun. Definitely those embedded stories would have told us the\nreal" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "plot and its denouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was never" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "written, but they are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic blending\nof stories" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "of Mowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose\nwithout thorns," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the Conciliator\nprobably winds up" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "being the thorn of a flower dipped in his blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "IIRC you connect this theme to the Vironese custom of plant naming of\nwomen and animal\n\nnaming of men. Also to the connection between botanic parasitic\nvine/multi-limbed trees\n\nand the zoological parasitic inhumi/multi-limbed Neighbors.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure you've mentioned noticing that early in Shadow of the\nTorturer, Severian\n\ndescribes anticipating a certain light (New Sun) which \"engendered life\nin whatever\n\nobjects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender\nlegs and waving feelers...\"\n\n\nI think you've connected all this to the original Transfiguration which\ninvolved Jesus emitting\n\nmystic beams of light signifying his (Conciliatory) status as bridge\nbetween heaven and earth.\n\nThe Transfiguration continuing to be symbolized by a conversion of the\ngrape and grain plant\n\nproducts to the animal products of blood and flesh.\n\n\nBut I am hoping you include also the Green Man in the constellation of\nelements to this theme.\n\nNot only because of his combined nature of plant and animal essence, and\nhis ostensible origin\n\nfrom the New Sun light.\n\n\nBut also because of The Green Man as a pagan deity connected to Great God\nPan and Dionysus\n\nworship for which there are undertones and hints throughout the entire\nSun Series and which\n\nprobably represents the connection between Judeo-pagan wine reverence and\nits importance to\n\nChristianity.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T15:21:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the story, Early Summer lies to her husband and tells him that Spring\nWind is his son, when in fact he is born of the red flower without a\nthorn. Perhaps the Green Man is partially alien too, and only believes\nhimself a true descendent of man.\n\nThe Green Man warns Severian that if he begets a son, it will be his enemy.\nSev takes this as a generic prophecy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nAnyway, as I think Andrew Mason surmised long ago, the half vegetable\nSpring Wind is Mars/March, son of Early Summer/June/Juno, Bird of the Wood\nis Rheas Silvia (whom Mars begets Romulus and Remus upon) ...\nso how is the Green Man related to Mars? The name of Mars is Verthandi\nnow, eh? hmmm\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes ... it seems that Spring Wind is much more Green Man than Typhon ...\nand I have noted the Green Man feeds off the light of the New Sun in\nsomething I am writing up now.\n\nThe story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital to\nthe Short Sun universe ... somehow this Spring Wind story is its opposite,\nI think. A cyclic kind of communion is implied. fruit to wine to blood,\nreturning to flowers. Severian's blood on that thorn also somehow\ncompletes the Eucharistic cycle.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Marc Aramini: Spring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I obviously hadn't read that since I devised the man-tree hybrid scheme" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "of Short Sun. Definitely those embedded stories would have told us\nthe real" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "plot and its denouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was\nnever" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "written, but they are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic blending\nof stories" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "of Mowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose\nwithout thorns," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the Conciliator\nprobably winds up" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "being the thorn of a flower dipped in his blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "IIRC you connect this theme to the Vironese custom of plant naming of\nwomen and animal\n\nnaming of men. Also to the connection between botanic parasitic\nvine/multi-limbed trees\n\nand the zoological parasitic inhumi/multi-limbed Neighbors.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure you've mentioned noticing that early in Shadow of the\nTorturer, Severian\n\ndescribes anticipating a certain light (New Sun) which \"engendered life\nin whatever\n\nobjects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender\nlegs and waving feelers...\"\n\n\nI think you've connected all this to the original Transfiguration which\ninvolved Jesus emitting\n\nmystic beams of light signifying his (Conciliatory) status as bridge\nbetween heaven and earth.\n\nThe Transfiguration continuing to be symbolized by a conversion of the\ngrape and grain plant\n\nproducts to the animal products of blood and flesh.\n\n\nBut I am hoping you include also the Green Man in the constellation of\nelements to this theme.\n\nNot only because of his combined nature of plant and animal essence, and\nhis ostensible origin\n\nfrom the New Sun light.\n\n\nBut also because of The Green Man as a pagan deity connected to Great\nGod Pan and Dionysus\n\nworship for which there are undertones and hints throughout the entire\nSun Series and which\n\nprobably represents the connection between Judeo-pagan wine reverence\nand its importance to\n\nChristianity.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T15:24:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He does manage to beget a sun, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nIn the story, Early Summer lies to her husband and tells him that Spring\nWind is his son, when in fact he is born of the red flower without a\nthorn. Perhaps the Green Man is partially alien too, and only believes\nhimself a true descendent of man.\n\nThe Green Man warns Severian that if he begets a son, it will be his\nenemy. Sev takes this as a generic prophecy.\n\nOn Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Anyway, as I think Andrew Mason surmised long ago, the half vegetable\nSpring Wind is Mars/March, son of Early Summer/June/Juno, Bird of the Wood\nis Rheas Silvia (whom Mars begets Romulus and Remus upon) ...\nso how is the Green Man related to Mars? The name of Mars is Verthandi\nnow, eh? hmmm\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Yes ... it seems that Spring Wind is much more Green Man than Typhon ...\nand I have noted the Green Man feeds off the light of the New Sun in\nsomething I am writing up now.\n\nThe story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital to\nthe Short Sun universe ... somehow this Spring Wind story is its opposite,\nI think. A cyclic kind of communion is implied. fruit to wine to blood,\nreturning to flowers. Severian's blood on that thorn also somehow\ncompletes the Eucharistic cycle.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Marc Aramini: Spring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "I obviously hadn't read that since I devised the man-tree hybrid scheme" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "of Short Sun. Definitely those embedded stories would have told us\nthe real" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "plot and its denouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was\nnever" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "written, but they are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic\nblending of stories" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "of Mowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose\nwithout thorns," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the Conciliator\nprobably winds up" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "being the thorn of a flower dipped in his blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "IIRC you connect this theme to the Vironese custom of plant naming of\nwomen and animal\n\nnaming of men. Also to the connection between botanic parasitic\nvine/multi-limbed trees\n\nand the zoological parasitic inhumi/multi-limbed Neighbors.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure you've mentioned noticing that early in Shadow of the\nTorturer, Severian\n\ndescribes anticipating a certain light (New Sun) which \"engendered life\nin whatever\n\nobjects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender\nlegs and waving feelers...\"\n\n\nI think you've connected all this to the original Transfiguration which\ninvolved Jesus emitting\n\nmystic beams of light signifying his (Conciliatory) status as bridge\nbetween heaven and earth.\n\nThe Transfiguration continuing to be symbolized by a conversion of the\ngrape and grain plant\n\nproducts to the animal products of blood and flesh.\n\n\nBut I am hoping you include also the Green Man in the constellation of\nelements to this theme.\n\nNot only because of his combined nature of plant and animal essence,\nand his ostensible origin\n\nfrom the New Sun light.\n\n\nBut also because of The Green Man as a pagan deity connected to Great\nGod Pan and Dionysus\n\nworship for which there are undertones and hints throughout the entire\nSun Series and which\n\nprobably represents the connection between Judeo-pagan wine reverence\nand its importance to\n\nChristianity.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T15:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That Green Man might be a damn Martian ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:24 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nHe does manage to beget a sun, though.\n\nOn Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:21 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In the story, Early Summer lies to her husband and tells him that Spring\nWind is his son, when in fact he is born of the red flower without a\nthorn. Perhaps the Green Man is partially alien too, and only believes\nhimself a true descendent of man.\n\nThe Green Man warns Severian that if he begets a son, it will be his\nenemy. Sev takes this as a generic prophecy.\n\nOn Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:02 AM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Anyway, as I think Andrew Mason surmised long ago, the half vegetable\nSpring Wind is Mars/March, son of Early Summer/June/Juno, Bird of the Wood\nis Rheas Silvia (whom Mars begets Romulus and Remus upon) ...\nso how is the Green Man related to Mars? The name of Mars is Verthandi\nnow, eh? hmmm\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:26 PM, Marc Aramini \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Yes ... it seems that Spring Wind is much more Green Man than Typhon ...\nand I have noted the Green Man feeds off the light of the New Sun in\nsomething I am writing up now.\n\nThe story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital\nto the Short Sun universe ... somehow this Spring Wind story is its\nopposite, I think. A cyclic kind of communion is implied. fruit to wine to\nblood, returning to flowers. Severian's blood on that thorn also somehow\ncompletes the Eucharistic cycle.\n\nOn Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 11:46 AM, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Marc Aramini: Spring Wind being half plant caught me a bit off guard -" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "I obviously hadn't read that since I devised the man-tree hybrid\nscheme" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "of Short Sun. Definitely those embedded stories would have told us\nthe real" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "plot and its denouement in a world in which Urth of the New Sun was\nnever" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "written, but they are still somewhat opaque in their syncretic\nblending of stories" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "of Mowgli, Moses, myth, and more. What is the Red Flower, the rose\nwithout thorns," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "which gives birth to Spring Wind? Severian's Claw of the Conciliator\nprobably winds up" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "being the thorn of a flower dipped in his blood." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "IIRC you connect this theme to the Vironese custom of plant naming of\nwomen and animal\n\nnaming of men. Also to the connection between botanic parasitic\nvine/multi-limbed trees\n\nand the zoological parasitic inhumi/multi-limbed Neighbors.\n\n\nI'm pretty sure you've mentioned noticing that early in Shadow of the\nTorturer, Severian\n\ndescribes anticipating a certain light (New Sun) which \"engendered\nlife in whatever\n\nobjects it fell upon, so that a leaf plucked from a bush grew slender\nlegs and waving feelers...\"\n\n\nI think you've connected all this to the original Transfiguration\nwhich involved Jesus emitting\n\nmystic beams of light signifying his (Conciliatory) status as bridge\nbetween heaven and earth.\n\nThe Transfiguration continuing to be symbolized by a conversion of the\ngrape and grain plant\n\nproducts to the animal products of blood and flesh.\n\n\nBut I am hoping you include also the Green Man in the constellation of\nelements to this theme.\n\nNot only because of his combined nature of plant and animal essence,\nand his ostensible origin\n\nfrom the New Sun light.\n\n\nBut also because of The Green Man as a pagan deity connected to Great\nGod Pan and Dionysus\n\nworship for which there are undertones and hints throughout the entire\nSun Series and which\n\nprobably represents the connection between Judeo-pagan wine reverence\nand its importance to\n\nChristianity.\n\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T15:38:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThat Green Man might be a damn Martian ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you very much. Now I will never be able to reread tBotNS without\nenvisioning Marvin.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<54186D6C.6010602@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T17:03:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/16/2014 10:38 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n That Green Man might be a damn Martian ...\n\n\nThank you very much. Now I will never be able to reread tBotNS without\nenvisioning Marvin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uncle Martin did have time travel...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-16T17:19:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "<54186D6C.6010602@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Uncle Martin wasn't green!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 10:03 AM, Jeffery Wilson clueland.com <\njwilson at clueland.com> wrote:\nOn 9/16/2014 10:38 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 8:33 AM, Marc Aramini > wrote:\n\n That Green Man might be a damn Martian ...\n\n\nThank you very much. Now I will never be able to reread tBotNS without\nenvisioning Marvin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uncle Martin did have time travel....\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T13:48:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: Anyway, as I think Andrew Mason surmised long ago, the half vegetable\nSpring Wind is Mars/March, son of Early Summer/June/Juno, Bird of the Wood\nIs Rheas Silvia (whom Mars begets Romulus and Remus upon) ...\nso how is the Green Man related to Mars? The name of Mars is Verthandi now,\neh? hmmm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, good detective work all around!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital to " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the Short Sun universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given the character \"Hyacinth\" in Long Sun, I think the theme deserves all the attention\n\nis has gotten on this board and more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps the Green Man is partially alien too, and only believes himself a true descendent of " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The tale of the origin of Hieros is twisted and confused. But I think there is an implication that\n\nthey are ultimately derived from human stock. There is a term I now forget, in animal husbandry \n\nwhich describes taking extreme variants and rebreeding them with the original stock for genetic\n\nrobusticity. I kinda think that may be what Wolfe is getting at here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Green Man warns Severian that if he begets a son, it will be his enemy.\nSev takes this as a generic prophecy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting observation. Might this relate to the relationship of Zeus and Dionysus? In ancient\n\nGreece, rustic vine god worship was replaced by worship of the Olympic pantheon, but the \n\nworship of Zeus and his ilk was eventually replaced by Dionysisan worship.\n\n\nSeverian does not have a son. But on the Whorl it seems like the relationship between Pas and\n\nSilk is somewhat Zeus-Dionysian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That Green Man might be a damn Martian ...> " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Thank you very much. Now I will never be able to reread tBotNS without\nenvisioning Marvin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. Though if any Martian connection was intended, perhaps Edgar Rice Burroughs and/or Ray\n\nBradbury were the main reference? On the other hand, must we be snobby and assume that Wolfe \n\nvalued these SF giants higher than Looney Toons? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T13:57:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think sometimes Wolfe likes making clich?s come to life in not so obvious\nways. (green men, silk purse of a pig's ear for Silk in Pig, etc.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Sep 17, 2014 at 6:48 AM, Lee wrote:\nMarc Aramini: Anyway, as I think Andrew Mason surmised long ago, the\nhalf vegetable\nSpring Wind is Mars/March, son of Early Summer/June/Juno, Bird of the Wood\nIs Rheas Silvia (whom Mars begets Romulus and Remus upon) ...\nso how is the Green Man related to Mars? The name of Mars is Verthandi\nnow,\neh? hmmm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep, good detective work all around!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The story of Hyacinthus, where flowers spring up from blood, is vital to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the Short Sun universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given the character \"Hyacinth\" in Long Sun, I think the theme deserves all\nthe attention\n\nis has gotten on this board and more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps the Green Man is partially alien too, and only believes himself a\ntrue descendent of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "man." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The tale of the origin of Hieros is twisted and confused. But I think\nthere is an implication that\n\nthey are ultimately derived from human stock. There is a term I now\nforget, in animal husbandry\n\nwhich describes taking extreme variants and rebreeding them with the\noriginal stock for genetic\n\nrobusticity. I kinda think that may be what Wolfe is getting at here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Green Man warns Severian that if he begets a son, it will be his\nenemy.\nSev takes this as a generic prophecy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting observation. Might this relate to the relationship of Zeus and\nDionysus? In ancient\n\nGreece, rustic vine god worship was replaced by worship of the Olympic\npantheon, but the\n\nworship of Zeus and his ilk was eventually replaced by Dionysisan worship.\n\n\nSeverian does not have a son. But on the Whorl it seems like the\nrelationship between Pas and\n\nSilk is somewhat Zeus-Dionysian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That Green Man might be a damn Martian ...>" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Thank you very much. Now I will never be able to\nreread tBotNS without\nenvisioning Marvin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Though if any Martian connection was intended, perhaps Edgar Rice\nBurroughs and/or Ray\n\nBradbury were the main reference? On the other hand, must we be snobby and\nassume that Wolfe\n\nvalued these SF giants higher than Looney Toons?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5419B01A.2080306@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T16:00:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/17/2014 8:57 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\n The tale of the origin of Hieros is twisted and confused. But I\n think there is an implication that\n\n they are ultimately derived from human stock." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean literally the vanished Hieros, whom are only referred to but \nare said to be the orignal human race ascended beyond the cycle of \nbang-gnabs, or the Hierogramates, who were uplifted from the \nunintelligent life outside the earth by the vanished Hieros and in turn \nmade the other Yesodis? Almost certainly some of the Hieros are in the \n'gramates woodpile, IMO." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is a term I now\n forget, in animal husbandry\n\n which describes taking extreme variants and rebreeding them with the\n original stock for genetic\n\n robusticity. I kinda think that may be what Wolfe is getting at here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Hybrid vigour\" works with any diverse genepool to produce breeds with \nthe best qualities of previous lines while hopefully lacking their \nweaknesses." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-17T18:36:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "<5419B01A.2080306@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The tale of the origin of Hieros is twisted and confused. But I\nthink there is an implication that they are ultimately derived from " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "human stock." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: \nDo you mean literally the vanished Hieros, whom are only referred to but \nare said to be the orignal human race ascended beyond the cycle of \nbang-gnabs, or the Hierogramates, who were uplifted from the \nunintelligent life outside the earth by the vanished Hieros and in turn \nmade the other Yesodis?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well there are also the \"Hierarchs\", the apparent designation for Apheta\n\nand her ilk. These serve as the \"larvae\" for Hierogrammates. So are these\n\nhumaniform Hierarchs the lost \"Hiero\" race residing in a place beyond the\n\nuniverse (Yesod)?\n\n\nI don't know and I suspect we, the human audience, are not really supposed\n\nto know nor fully understand the working of such superior beings. A dog\n\nmay have a general sense of \"family\" but the concept of \"great aunt\" or \n\n\"second cousin-twice removed\" is probably beyond its comprehension. So \n\nalso, the interrelationships of the Hiero groups may be incomprehensible for \n\nhumans.\n\n\nBut given that Tzadkiel and B, F and O and Apheta and the other Yesodis all\n\ntake a human-like form (at least while we observe them), I think some sort of\n\nultimately human origin for them is implied. If God made humanity (and angels)\n\nin His own image, might not the reverse also be true? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<541CD9AC.7060406@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-20T01:34:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/17/2014 1:36 PM, Lee wrote:\nWell there are also the \"Hierarchs\", the apparent designation for Apheta\n\nand her ilk. These serve as the \"larvae\" for Hierogrammates. So are these\n\nhumaniform Hierarchs the lost \"Hiero\" race residing in a place beyond the\n\nuniverse (Yesod)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Hierarchs are said to be the creatures of the Hierogrammates, so \nthey are among \"the other Yesodis\" I mentioned. FB&O are not among the \ntongueless Hierarchs, as they are able to speak in places as literally \nsilent as a tomb. IIRC, F and B are of the short-lived purpose-made \nHierodules, with robot O along for muscle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<541EDB61.3060501@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-09-21T14:06:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/16/2014 12:19 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nBut Uncle Martin wasn't green!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It wasn't obvious on the original black and white seasons of the show, \nbut he could change to match Tim.\n\nhttp://www.sitcomsonline.com/myfavoritemartiantvguide.jpg" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-09-22T13:21:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Plant/Animal", "in_reply_to": "<541EDB61.3060501@clueland.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeffrey Wilson: The Hierarchs are said to be the creatures of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierogrammates, so they are among \"the other Yesodis\" I mentioned. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "FB&O are not among the tongueless Hierarchs, as they are able to speak " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in places as literally silent as a tomb. IIRC, F and B are of the short-lived " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "purpose-made Hierodules, with robot O along for muscle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree.\n\n\nStill I think what I said previously holds: Wolfe does not want these \"angels\"\n\nand their form and organization to have a clear, explicit description in our \n\nminds, and he is deliberately being ambiguous in describing them.\n\n\nBiblical seraphim are described as:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Literally \"burning ones\", the word seraph is normally a synonym for serpents when used " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the Hebrew Bible...Fiery six-winged beings that fly around the Throne of God crying" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"holy, holy, holy\". .\"Each had six wings; with two he covered his face, and with two he " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "covered his feet, and with two he flew.\"..They appear also in the Christian Gnostic text " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the Origin of the World, described as \"dragon-shaped angels\".[6]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is pretty strange stuff, especially for ancient people who could only communicate such\n\nsupernatural constructions with words and 2-D hand drawings. I get the sense that even the\n\npeople creating such depictions were aware that they were not doing their referents real\n\njustice with these odd descriptions.\n\n\nSo my guess is that Wolfe is going for something similar in describing Hiero-types.. A \n\ndescription which gives us an idea; something for our imaginations to work with but \n\nwhich doesn't really do it justice, given our human limitations.\n\n\n(The idea of angels taking the form of fiery reptiles/dragons might have more than one\n\n echo in BotNS; the Salamander and Typhon/Mandragora to name a couple.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }