{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6703", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6703, "subject": "Severian's Mausoleum", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2014-11-21T15:16:14+00:00", "last": "2014-11-24T06:36:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-11-21T15:16:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was struck by the term \"faithless door\" in the passage describingSeverian's mausoleum \" . . . it was the smallness of the room, thethick walls of masonry, and the single, narrow window with its onebar, together with the faithless door (so massively heavy) that remained eternally ajar.\" (*Shadow and Claw*, pg. 17).\nI do not know, and still do not know, what a faithless door is butwhile trying to find out, I came across this poem attributed to William Gifford, called *Epitaph* (1852), which has interesting resonanceswith Severian's story:\nEPITAPH.Where ragged nettles mark the rising ground,And pois?nous night-shade breathes infection round,Bill Brazen rots. In the good patriarch’s phrase, Evil and few were his unhallow?d days: Yet in these few and evil the rank knaveChoused of a head-stone his poor father’s grave;Abused his mother; grudged his children bread,And coffin?d them in wig boxes when dead;\nBullied his sister; kicked his wife to th? door;Belied the parish books, and starved the poor.Till grown too bad for this bad town, kind HeavenSuffer?d the miscreant westward to be driven;Where three long years in solitary stateHe dragg?d the drunken hours through scorn and hate;Till as he lay one night devoid of rest,And conscience woke the worm within his breast,A wint?ry blast, with hoarse, tremendous roar,Rush?d through the gallery, burst the faithless door,Approach?d him, touch?d??Christ Jesus! save, he cried, A wretch! a hateful wretch!\"?shook, groan?d, and died.Now buried here, the scorn that dogg?d his wayThrough life, still scents, and opens on his clay.* * * * * *Stranger! this scene demands an awful pause:A vicious world takes arms in virtue’s cause:Vice cowers beneath the shame she boasts to brave,And finds chastisement on this side the grave. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D020BF9@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2014-11-21T15:20:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just as in the poem the door is faithless for letting in the cold wind, Severian's door is faithless for failing to remain closed.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Robert Pirkola\nSent: Friday, November 21, 2014 10:16 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Severian's Mausoleum\n\nI was struck by the term \"faithless door\" in the passage describing\nSeverian's mausoleum \" . . . it was the smallness of the room, the\nthick walls of masonry, and the single, narrow window with its one\nbar, together with the faithless door (so massively heavy) that\nremained eternally ajar.\" (*Shadow and Claw*, pg. 17).\n\nI do not know, and still do not know, what a faithless door is but\nwhile trying to find out, I came across this poem attributed to\nWilliam Gifford, called *Epitaph* (1852), which has interesting resonances\nwith Severian's story:\n\nEPITAPH.\nWhere ragged nettles mark the rising ground,\nAnd pois'nous night-shade breathes infection round,\nBill Brazen rots. In the good patriarch's phrase,\n\"Evil and few were his unhallow'd days:\"\nYet in these few and evil the rank knave\nChoused of a head-stone his poor father's grave;\nAbused his mother; grudged his children bread,\nAnd coffin'd them in wig boxes when dead;\n\nBullied his sister; kicked his wife to th' door;\nBelied the parish books, and starved the poor.\nTill grown too bad for this bad town, kind Heaven\nSuffer'd the miscreant westward to be driven;\nWhere three long years in solitary state\nHe dragg'd the drunken hours through scorn and hate;\nTill as he lay one night devoid of rest,\nAnd conscience woke the worm within his breast,\nA wint'ry blast, with hoarse, tremendous roar,\nRush'd through the gallery, burst the faithless door,\nApproach'd him, touch'd-\"Christ Jesus! save,\" he cried,\n\"A wretch! a hateful wretch!\"-shook, groan'd, and died.\nNow buried here, the scorn that dogg'd his way\nThrough life, still scents, and opens on his clay.\n* * * * * *\nStranger! this scene demands an awful pause:\nA vicious world takes arms in virtue's cause:\nVice cowers beneath the shame she boasts to brave,\nAnd finds chastisement on this side the grave." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-11-21T15:29:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D020BF9@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry. ?The formatting really mangled that poem. ?You can read it here more easily:?\n\nhttp://lordbyron.cath.lib.vt.edu/monograph.php?doc=WiJerda.1852&select=v4c7.4\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<2B125A99-8C98-4288-96EB-2C771980CB08@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-11-21T17:21:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D020BF9@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Faithless in that you can have no faith in it. \nInteresting verses. \n\nNo dia 21/11/2014, ?s 15:20, \"Norwood, Frederick Hudson\" escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just as in the poem the door is faithless for letting in the cold wind, Severian’s door is faithless for failing to remain closed.\n \nRick Norwood\n \nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Robert Pirkola\nSent: Friday, November 21, 2014 10:16 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Severian's Mausoleum\n \nI was struck by the term \"faithless door\" in the passage describing\nSeverian's mausoleum \" . . . it was the smallness of the room, the\nthick walls of masonry, and the single, narrow window with its one\nbar, together with the faithless door (so massively heavy) that \nremained eternally ajar.\" (*Shadow and Claw*, pg. 17).\n \nI do not know, and still do not know, what a faithless door is but\nwhile trying to find out, I came across this poem attributed to \nWilliam Gifford, called *Epitaph* (1852), which has interesting resonances\nwith Severian's story:\n \nEPITAPH.\nWhere ragged nettles mark the rising ground,\nAnd pois?nous night-shade breathes infection round,\nBill Brazen rots. In the good patriarch’s phrase,\n“Evil and few were his unhallow?d days:\nYet in these few and evil the rank knave\nChoused of a head-stone his poor father’s grave;\nAbused his mother; grudged his children bread,\nAnd coffin?d them in wig boxes when dead;\n \nBullied his sister; kicked his wife to th” door;\nBelied the parish books, and starved the poor.\nTill grown too bad for this bad town, kind Heaven\nSuffer?d the miscreant westward to be driven;\nWhere three long years in solitary state\nHe dragg?d the drunken hours through scorn and hate;\nTill as he lay one night devoid of rest,\nAnd conscience woke the worm within his breast,\nA wint?ry blast, with hoarse, tremendous roar,\nRush?d through the gallery, burst the faithless door,\nApproach?d him, touch?d??Christ Jesus! save, he cried,\n?A wretch! a hateful wretch!\"?shook, groan?d, and died.\nNow buried here, the scorn that dogg?d his way\nThrough life, still scents, and opens on his clay.\n* * * * * *\nStranger! this scene demands an awful pause:\nA vicious world takes arms in virtue’s cause:\nVice cowers beneath the shame she boasts to brave,\nAnd finds chastisement on this side the grave.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D020C82@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2014-11-21T17:29:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<2B125A99-8C98-4288-96EB-2C771980CB08@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the intent is more to personify the door. It is faithless because you trusted it to stay closed, and it failed you.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Ant?nio Pedro Marques\nSent: Friday, November 21, 2014 12:21 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian's Mausoleum\n\nFaithless in that you can have no faith in it.\nInteresting verses.\n\nNo dia 21/11/2014, ?s 15:20, \"Norwood, Frederick Hudson\" > escreveu:\nJust as in the poem the door is faithless for letting in the cold wind, Severian’s door is faithless for failing to remain closed.\n\nRick Norwood\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Robert Pirkola\nSent: Friday, November 21, 2014 10:16 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Severian's Mausoleum\n\nI was struck by the term \"faithless door\" in the passage describing\nSeverian's mausoleum \" . . . it was the smallness of the room, the\nthick walls of masonry, and the single, narrow window with its one\nbar, together with the faithless door (so massively heavy) that\nremained eternally ajar.\" (*Shadow and Claw*, pg. 17).\n\nI do not know, and still do not know, what a faithless door is but\nwhile trying to find out, I came across this poem attributed to\nWilliam Gifford, called *Epitaph* (1852), which has interesting resonances\nwith Severian's story:\n\nEPITAPH.\nWhere ragged nettles mark the rising ground,\nAnd pois?nous night-shade breathes infection round,\nBill Brazen rots. In the good patriarch’s phrase,\n?Evil and few were his unhallow?d days:\nYet in these few and evil the rank knave\nChoused of a head-stone his poor father’s grave;\nAbused his mother; grudged his children bread,\nAnd coffin?d them in wig boxes when dead;\n\nBullied his sister; kicked his wife to th? door;\nBelied the parish books, and starved the poor.\nTill grown too bad for this bad town, kind Heaven\nSuffer?d the miscreant westward to be driven;\nWhere three long years in solitary state\nHe dragg?d the drunken hours through scorn and hate;\nTill as he lay one night devoid of rest,\nAnd conscience woke the worm within his breast,\nA wint?ry blast, with hoarse, tremendous roar,\nRush?d through the gallery, burst the faithless door,\nApproach?d him, touch?d??Christ Jesus! save, he cried,\n?A wretch! a hateful wretch!\"?shook, groan?d, and died.\nNow buried here, the scorn that dogg?d his way\nThrough life, still scents, and opens on his clay.\n* * * * * *\nStranger! this scene demands an awful pause:\nA vicious world takes arms in virtue’s cause:\nVice cowers beneath the shame she boasts to brave,\nAnd finds chastisement on this side the grave." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2014-11-21T17:50:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D020C82@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I supposed that was why it was called a faithless door, but I guess I was more interested\nin whether the term was a common one or was coined by Wolfe. “If it weren't coined by\nWolfe, then I supposed that it might provide some insight into the nature of the mausoleum.\nHow could such a heavy door be faithless” “It is implied that the door is so heavy\nthat it will never be closed. ?If that is so, how was it ever opened in the first place” “And by whom”\nCertainly not by a stray gust of wind like the faithless screen door at my house!? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2014-11-21T18:27:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recurrent small floods might heighten the floor and get the door stuck?\n(I don't remember what the paving was.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 21 November 2014 17:50, Robert Pirkola wrote:\nI supposed that was why it was called a faithless door, but I guess I was\nmore interested\nin whether the term was a common one or was coined by Wolfe. If it\nweren't coined by\nWolfe, then I supposed that it might provide some insight into the nature\nof the mausoleum.\nHow could such a heavy door be faithless? It is implied that the door is\nso heavy\nthat it will never be closed. If that is so, how was it ever opened in\nthe first place? And by whom?\nCertainly not by a stray gust of wind like the faithless screen door at my\nhouse!\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D020CD9@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2014-11-21T18:40:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the significant thing is not that the door could never be closed, but rather that when you closed it, it didn't stay closed. I get an image of Severian lying down to go to sleep and -- creeeeeeeeeek -- the door opens!\n\nIt's been so long since I read the book that I don't remember, is there any chance that the door opening, seemingly of its own accord, is a clue?\n\nRick Norwood\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Robert Pirkola\nSent: Friday, November 21, 2014 12:51 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Severian's Mausoleum\n\nI supposed that was why it was called a faithless door, but I guess I was more interested in whether the term was a common one or was coined by Wolfe. “If it weren't coined by Wolfe, then I supposed that it might provide some insight into the nature of the mausoleum.\nHow could such a heavy door be faithless” “It is implied that the door is so heavy that it will never be closed. ?If that is so, how was it ever opened in the first place” “And by whom”\nCertainly not by a stray gust of wind like the faithless screen door at my house!? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5472D1F5.1080705@clueland.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeffery Wilson clueland.com", "address": "jwilson at clueland.com" }, "date": "2014-11-24T06:36:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Mausoleum", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/21/2014 9:16 AM, Robert Pirkola wrote:\nI was struck by the term \"faithless door\" in the passage describing\nSeverian's mausoleum \" . . . it was the smallness of the room, the\nthick walls of masonry, and the single, narrow window with its one\nbar, together with the faithless door (so massively heavy) that\nremained eternally ajar.\" (*Shadow and Claw*, pg. 17).\n\nI do not know, and still do not know, what a faithless door is but\nwhile trying to find out, I came across this poem attributed to\nWilliam Gifford, called *Epitaph* (1852), which has interesting resonances\nwith Severian's story:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe it is personification, and a faithless door will not serve its \nintended purpose like a faithless servant does not serve as intended. \nThe mausoleum door is stuck open so it cannot keep safe the interior, \nlikewise the door in the poem fails to keep out the person that bursts \nin. I suppose a door that fails to open when necessary would be equally \nfaithless.\n\nIt's a quaint and archaic turn of phrase like many in the BOTNS, and \nperhaps it is no coincidence that it appears near the beginning and ends \nof the tale(s), which are also the times when Sev discusses his own \nfaithlessness, as in the numerous vows he has broken." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - < jwilson at clueland.com >\nA&M Texarkana Computational Intelligence Lab\n< http://www.tamut.edu/cil >" } ] } ] }