{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6705", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6705, "subject": "Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "messages": 6, "voices": 5, "first": "2015-01-04T22:16:27+00:00", "last": "2015-01-16T02:20:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marcos Bidoli Gouvêa", "address": "mgouvea at uchicago.edu" }, "date": "2015-01-04T22:16:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi all,\n\nI’m a long time lurker but this is the first time I’ve posted in a quite a while. Last year I reread the whole Solar Cycle and gathered some thoughts to share. Between my first reading and this latest go I became Classicist, and I was surprised to find how much of the Long Sun was opened up by the knowledge I had picked up.\n\nUsually when I think about Wolfe’s reading in classical literature I look to the Soldier books, but now I think it is even more vividly at work in how he draws daily life in Viron. For Latro, Greek culture and even his experience of the gods is alien to what he knows (even if he remembered what he knows). But for the Vironese animal sacrifice is a common affair (even if not on Sun Street). The same goes for dancing, shrill singing, augury, and reciting prayers. (I thought I read about a sistrum at one of the sacrifices, but I cannot find the place at the moment.) These are all practices that are very well-attested across ancient Mediterranean cultures. They were as central to what people meant by 'religion' then as they are distant to them now. One of the great effects of the Long Sun books is to paint all these characteristics drawn out of our own history into the “foreign” culture of this future society. I think Wolfe is having fun disguising these commonplaces of the ancient world as futuristic developments, or at least playing the futuristic element off the ancient one.\n\nMy favorite example is his deployment of Euhemerism. Euhemerus famously proposed that the gods worshiped by Greeks and others were actually great kings and heroes who had been elevated to status of gods by reverent followers. (Fame is pretty much all Euhemerus has going for him-- none of works of his survive.) I think Wolfe engaged in something of a thought experiment in the Whorl: in what sort of scenario would men again find it a a relevant, even edgy explanation to say that the gods were once men? Belief in multiple gods is not commonly taken to be a plausible view in the west, and so it is easy to dismiss the disturbing character of Euhemerus' claim. It's just not our problem. However, it is much easier to find it plausible that computerized personalities might wield godlike power over us. In the Whorl, there is really very little difference between what Scylla is and what a sea goddess might have been to the Greeks.\n\nThere’s an impishly Chestertonian manner to how Wolfe takes makes an ancient theory of apparently little relevance to us and makes it a genuinely exciting development in his novel. He seems to be insisting that history does not leave everything behind, and that what made sense to humans in one day can again be plausible.\n\nI have one more thought on this, but I’ll save it to avoid overstaying my welcome on a first foray in a long time. I’d be interested to hear thoughts; I could not find any discussion of Euhemerism directly in the Whorl archives, but I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed there.\n\n ---Marcos" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Otto Jack Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-01-05T10:06:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you, Marcos! Very enlightening. I had clocked this at a very rough\nand intuitive level, but it's great to hear it confirmed and expanded upon\nby a specialist.\n\n\"He seems to be insisting that history does not leave everything behind,\nand that what made sense to humans in one day can again be plausible.\"\n\nI'd love to see someone do a study of Wolfe's cycle that maps it onto to\ncontemporary culture's enmeshment in computers, especially as regards\ncelebrities and in regard to the heroic in gaming.\n\nThanks again,\n\nDOJP" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:16 PM, Marcos Bidoli Gouv?a \nwrote:\n Hi all,\n\n\n I’m a long time lurker but this is the first time I’ve posted in a quite\na while. Last year I reread the whole Solar Cycle and gathered some\nthoughts to share. Between my first reading and this latest go I became\nClassicist, and I was surprised to find how much of the Long Sun was opened\nup by the knowledge I had picked up.\n\n\n Usually when I think about Wolfe’s reading in classical literature I\nlook to the Soldier books, but now I think it is even more vividly at work\nin how he draws daily life in Viron. For Latro, Greek culture and even his\nexperience of the gods is alien to what he knows (even if he remembered\nwhat he knows). But for the Vironese animal sacrifice is a common affair\n(even if not on Sun Street). The same goes for dancing, shrill singing,\naugury, and reciting prayers. (I thought I read about a sistrum at one of\nthe sacrifices, but I cannot find the place at the moment.) These are all\npractices that are very well-attested across ancient Mediterranean\ncultures. They were as central to what people meant by 'religion' then as\nthey are distant to them now. One of the great effects of the Long Sun\nbooks is to paint all these characteristics drawn out of our own\nhistory into the “foreign” culture of this future society. I think Wolfe is\nhaving fun disguising these commonplaces of the ancient world as futuristic\ndevelopments, or at least playing the futuristic element off the ancient\none.\n\n\n My favorite example is his deployment of Euhemerism. Euhemerus famously\nproposed that the gods worshiped by Greeks and others were actually great\nkings and heroes who had been elevated to status of gods by reverent\nfollowers. (Fame is pretty much all Euhemerus has going for him-- none of\nworks of his survive.) I think Wolfe engaged in something of a thought\nexperiment in the Whorl: in what sort of scenario would men again find it a\na relevant, even edgy explanation to say that the gods were once men?\nBelief in multiple gods is not commonly taken to be a plausible view in the\nwest, and so it is easy to dismiss the disturbing character of Euhemerus'\nclaim. It's just not our problem. However, it is much easier to find it\nplausible that computerized personalities might wield godlike power over\nus. In the Whorl, there is really very little difference between what\nScylla is and what a sea goddess might have been to the Greeks.\n\n\n There’s an impishly Chestertonian manner to how Wolfe takes makes an\nancient theory of apparently little relevance to us and makes it a\ngenuinely exciting development in his novel. He seems to be insisting that\nhistory does not leave everything behind, and that what made sense to\nhumans in one day can again be plausible.\n\n\n I have one more thought on this, but I’ll save it to avoid overstaying\nmy welcome on a first foray in a long time. I’d be interested to hear\nthoughts; I could not find any discussion of Euhemerism directly in the\nWhorl archives, but I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed there.\n\n\n ---Marcos\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008a01d028da$9a162af0$ce4280d0$@de>", "from": { "name": "Nessun Saprà", "address": "nessun-sapra at web.de" }, "date": "2015-01-05T11:27:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting point. Another one which could be of importance here, is that\nEuhemerus was considered a “Bergaios” (like Pytheas or Antiphanes) in\nantiquity, i.e. someone who is deliberately telling lies.\n\n \n\nNessuno\n\n \n\nVon: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] Im Auftrag von Marcos Bidoli\nGouv?a\nGesendet: Sonntag, 4. Januar 2015 23:16\nAn: urth at lists.urth.net\nBetreff: (urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean\n\n \n\nHi all,\n\n \n\nI’m a long time lurker but this is the first time I’ve posted in a quite a\nwhile. Last year I reread the whole Solar Cycle and gathered some thoughts\nto share. Between my first reading and this latest go I became Classicist,\nand I was surprised to find how much of the Long Sun was opened up by the\nknowledge I had picked up. \n\n \n\nUsually when I think about Wolfe’s reading in classical literature I look to\nthe Soldier books, but now I think it is even more vividly at work in how he\ndraws daily life in Viron. For Latro, Greek culture and even his experience\nof the gods is alien to what he knows (even if he remembered what he knows).\nBut for the Vironese animal sacrifice is a common affair (even if not on Sun\nStreet). The same goes for dancing, shrill singing, augury, and reciting\nprayers. (I thought I read about a sistrum at one of the sacrifices, but I\ncannot find the place at the moment.) These are all practices that are very\nwell-attested across ancient Mediterranean cultures. They were as central to\nwhat people meant by 'religion' then as they are distant to them now. One of\nthe great effects of the Long Sun books is to paint all these\ncharacteristics drawn out of our own history into the “foreign” culture of\nthis future society. I think Wolfe is having fun disguising these\ncommonplaces of the ancient world as futuristic developments, or at least\nplaying the futuristic element off the ancient one.\n\n \n\nMy favorite example is his deployment of Euhemerism. Euhemerus famously\nproposed that the gods worshiped by Greeks and others were actually great\nkings and heroes who had been elevated to status of gods by reverent\nfollowers. (Fame is pretty much all Euhemerus has going for him-- none of\nworks of his survive.) I think Wolfe engaged in something of a thought\nexperiment in the Whorl: in what sort of scenario would men again find it a\na relevant, even edgy explanation to say that the gods were once men? Belief\nin multiple gods is not commonly taken to be a plausible view in the west,\nand so it is easy to dismiss the disturbing character of Euhemerus' claim.\nIt's just not our problem. However, it is much easier to find it plausible\nthat computerized personalities might wield godlike power over us. In the\nWhorl, there is really very little difference between what Scylla is and\nwhat a sea goddess might have been to the Greeks. \n\n \n\nThere’s an impishly Chestertonian manner to how Wolfe takes makes an ancient\ntheory of apparently little relevance to us and makes it a genuinely\nexciting development in his novel. He seems to be insisting that history\ndoes not leave everything behind, and that what made sense to humans in one\nday can again be plausible. \n\n \n\nI have one more thought on this, but I’ll save it to avoid overstaying my\nwelcome on a first foray in a long time. I’d be interested to hear thoughts;\nI could not find any discussion of Euhemerism directly in the Whorl\narchives, but I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed there.\n\n \n\n ---Marcos" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-01-05T14:03:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this only got sent to Marcos and not the list, so a resend:\n\n\nI am not sure Wolfe need ever have heard of Euhemerism to play with the\nthemes of apotheosis. The transmogrification of typhon from satan to\nsecular tyrant to benevolent father god shows the drive to seek authority\nof a lasting nature. Ultimately those who imitate God or the gods take on\nsome of that divine nature in Wolfe. Certainly the religion of Viron was\nhighly syncretic, with both Catholic and pagan influences on the church\novert. The chrasmologic writings are culled from a variety of sources,\nfrom Aurelius to more biblical ones.\n\nI will only say the ways of the gods are not necessarily entirely foreign\nto Latro ... mankind and its motivations are perhaps just as inexplicable,\nor moreso. The true moment of change for him involves subconscious\ndepression and disgust after the manumission ceremony of the spartans in\nwhich the slaves promised freedom are slaughtered by their \"sponsors\".\n\nThe idea of the theoanthropos, man as god and god as man, is innately tied\nto Wolfe's religious ideology, and i do not find it out of place at all for\nhin to explore the religious significance of mortals who become something\nmore. (Though Zalmoxis holds a special place as an enemy of latro perhaps\nmore inimical than the triple goddess)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 3:16 PM, Marcos Bidoli Gouv?a \nwrote:\n Hi all,\n\n\n I’m a long time lurker but this is the first time I’ve posted in a quite\na while. Last year I reread the whole Solar Cycle and gathered some\nthoughts to share. Between my first reading and this latest go I became\nClassicist, and I was surprised to find how much of the Long Sun was opened\nup by the knowledge I had picked up.\n\n\n Usually when I think about Wolfe’s reading in classical literature I\nlook to the Soldier books, but now I think it is even more vividly at work\nin how he draws daily life in Viron. For Latro, Greek culture and even his\nexperience of the gods is alien to what he knows (even if he remembered\nwhat he knows). But for the Vironese animal sacrifice is a common affair\n(even if not on Sun Street). The same goes for dancing, shrill singing,\naugury, and reciting prayers. (I thought I read about a sistrum at one of\nthe sacrifices, but I cannot find the place at the moment.) These are all\npractices that are very well-attested across ancient Mediterranean\ncultures. They were as central to what people meant by 'religion' then as\nthey are distant to them now. One of the great effects of the Long Sun\nbooks is to paint all these characteristics drawn out of our own\nhistory into the “foreign” culture of this future society. I think Wolfe is\nhaving fun disguising these commonplaces of the ancient world as futuristic\ndevelopments, or at least playing the futuristic element off the ancient\none.\n\n\n My favorite example is his deployment of Euhemerism. Euhemerus famously\nproposed that the gods worshiped by Greeks and others were actually great\nkings and heroes who had been elevated to status of gods by reverent\nfollowers. (Fame is pretty much all Euhemerus has going for him-- none of\nworks of his survive.) I think Wolfe engaged in something of a thought\nexperiment in the Whorl: in what sort of scenario would men again find it a\na relevant, even edgy explanation to say that the gods were once men?\nBelief in multiple gods is not commonly taken to be a plausible view in the\nwest, and so it is easy to dismiss the disturbing character of Euhemerus'\nclaim. It's just not our problem. However, it is much easier to find it\nplausible that computerized personalities might wield godlike power over\nus. In the Whorl, there is really very little difference between what\nScylla is and what a sea goddess might have been to the Greeks.\n\n\n There’s an impishly Chestertonian manner to how Wolfe takes makes an\nancient theory of apparently little relevance to us and makes it a\ngenuinely exciting development in his novel. He seems to be insisting that\nhistory does not leave everything behind, and that what made sense to\nhumans in one day can again be plausible.\n\n\n I have one more thought on this, but I’ll save it to avoid overstaying\nmy welcome on a first foray in a long time. I’d be interested to hear\nthoughts; I could not find any discussion of Euhemerism directly in the\nWhorl archives, but I’m sure there’s something I’ve missed there.\n\n\n ---Marcos\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<54B874C3.9060902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2015-01-16T02:17:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/4/2015 5:16 PM, Marcos Bidoli Gouv?a wrote:\nThere’s an impishly Chestertonian manner to how Wolfe takes makes an \nancient theory of apparently little relevance to us and makes it a \ngenuinely exciting development in his novel. He seems to be insisting \nthat history does not leave everything behind, and that what made \nsense to humans in one day can again be plausible. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I also think that he is suggesting that the Whorl is about as far in \n\"our\" future as the ancient Greeks are in our past. And the reverse: \nthat we are as close to both, that humans don't change all that much \nthough their cultures do. That we are not that different, but that we \nand they are as different as we can imagine and still */can /*imagine." } ] }, { "message_id": "<54B87585.3000903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2015-01-16T02:20:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Long Sun and the Ancient Mediterranean", "in_reply_to": "<008a01d028da$9a162af0$ce4280d0$@de>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 1/5/2015 6:27 AM, Nessun Sapr? wrote:\n\nInteresting point. Another one which could be of importance here, is \nthat Euhemerus was considered a “Bergaios” (like Pytheas or \nAntiphanes) in antiquity, i.e. someone who is deliberately telling lies.\n\nNessuno" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A troll? Well, that points us right back to the Internet, doesn't it?" } ] } ] }