{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6734", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6734, "subject": "Latro", "messages": 17, "voices": 7, "first": "2015-04-24T15:15:24+00:00", "last": "2015-04-28T14:55:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-24T15:15:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: ... a trial run full of human suffering which will lead to the shifting from pagan gods " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "to Christian monotheism as the pagan gods are reconciled to a new divine order)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sounds also like a summary of the entire Sun series to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar: Of course Wolfe was thinking of the play on latro in Latin meaning thief, while \nlatreia in Greek means worship: but it seems a bit of a stretch of inference to see hidden \nmeaning in the \"mono-\" prefixed version specifically?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think David was just providing an example to direct our attention to the Greek root word with the\n\nprefix tagging along for the ride. [Edit- ah yes, David confirms this]\n\n \n\nSince, as Dan'l mentions, \"latria\" is an important word in Catholicism, I find it completely plausible that Wolfe\n\nhad both the thief and worship meanings in mind. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Latria is the worship to which only God is entititled; what we offer to the saints in general " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "is \"dulia,\" respect or reverence, and to Mary, \"hyperdulia,\" extreme reverence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Yes: thief/mercenary + worship(er) seems an interesting combination. Especially given how Latro " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "seems to have received his head wound: despoiling a shrine after a battle, IIRC." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was Jesus, who had his own head wound, not crucified, flanked by two \"thieves\"? Jesus' ministry was an attack on\n\nthe prevailing Judaic religion of his time. And Jesus had his own fit of anger in the Temple. Wolfe has cited this\n\nepisode, where Jesus whips the moneychangers, as evidence The Saviour had spent some time as a torturer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: I didn't know that meaning of \"-dule,\" which I have always seen rendered as \"slave.\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hierodules need not be slaves at all. In fact, if they are analogous to saints, it might be debatable " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "whether they are meant to give reverence or receive it. Or both" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Both\" is the perfect description of the relationship between Barbatus & Famulimus and Severian. Not to mention\n\nthat Tzadkiel him/herself owns to having been Severian's acolyte in a previous iteration. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-24T15:57:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.\n\nNot to be argumentative, but, no, Jesus' ministry was *not* an attack on\nJudaism; to the extent that it was an attack at all, it was an attack on\nthe hypocrisy of the priestly class. But Jesus did not see himself as\ndestroying Judaism (\"...not one jot or tittle of the Law shall be taken\naway...\") but fulfilling it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:15 AM, Lee wrote:\nMarc Aramini: ... a trial run full of human suffering which will lead to\nthe shifting from pagan gods" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "to Christian monotheism as the pagan gods are reconciled to a new divine\norder)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sounds also like a summary of the entire Sun series to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mo Holkar: Of course Wolfe was thinking of the play on latro in Latin\nmeaning thief, while\nlatreia in Greek means worship: but it seems a bit of a stretch of\ninference to see hidden\nmeaning in the \"mono-\" prefixed version specifically?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think David was just providing an example to direct our attention to the\nGreek root word with the\n\nprefix tagging along for the ride. [Edit- ah yes, David confirms this]\n\n\n\nSince, as Dan'l mentions, \"latria\" is an important word in Catholicism, I\nfind it completely plausible that Wolfe\n\nhad both the thief and worship meanings in mind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Latria is the worship to which only God is\nentititled; what we offer to the saints in general" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is \"dulia,\" respect or reverence, and to Mary, \"hyperdulia,\" extreme\nreverence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: Yes: thief/mercenary + worship(er) seems an interesting\ncombination. Especially given how Latro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "seems to have received his head wound: despoiling a shrine after a\nbattle, IIRC." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was Jesus, who had his own head wound, not crucified, flanked by two\n\"thieves\"? Jesus' ministry was an attack on\n\nthe prevailing Judaic religion of his time. And Jesus had his own fit of\nanger in the Temple. Wolfe has cited this\n\nepisode, where Jesus whips the moneychangers, as evidence The Saviour had\nspent some time as a torturer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff: I didn't know that meaning of \"-dule,\" which I have\nalways seen rendered as \"slave.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hierodules need not be slaves at all. In fact, if they are analogous to\nsaints, it might be debatable" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "whether they are meant to give reverence or receive it. Or both" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Both\" is the perfect description of the relationship between Barbatus &\nFamulimus and Severian. Not to mention\n\nthat Tzadkiel him/herself owns to having been Severian's acolyte in a\nprevious iteration.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-24T18:20:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Not to be argumentative, but, no, Jesus' ministry was *not* an attack on\nJudaism; to the extent that it was an attack at all, it was an attack on\nthe hypocrisy of the priestly class. But Jesus did not see himself as\ndestroying Judaism (\"...not one jot or tittle of the Law shall be taken\naway...\") but fulfilling it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't take it as argument but as a point of discussion. It wasn't the main point of my post, so\n\nI didn't elaborate. But in fairness I didn't just say \"Judaism\", I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jesus' ministry was an attack on the prevailing Judaic religion of his time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By which I meant the practice of Judaism as administered by the priestly class of Judea. The \n\nSanhedrin made it clear they weren't happy with Jesus' ministry and considered it a threat. Even \n\ntoday, there are certain Christians AND Jews who deny Jesus was jewish.\n\n\n\nI think there were times when the words of Jesus imply he considered his goal to be bringing\n\nback a lost purity to Judaism. Though the Old Testament consistently implies that the Hebrews were \n\na constant disappointment to God. (small wonder that guilt is an important part of being jewish ;- ))\n\n\n\nBut other times Jesus seemed to acknowledge that he was bringing something new to the table \n\n(even if fulfilling ancient prophecy). For some reason Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10-34 come to mind, \n\nwhere Jesus notes that he has not come to bring peace but rather division and a sword- setting family \n\nmembers against each other, etc.\n\n\n\nI take this as a, if not transparent, then translucent way of Jesus saying that he expected his ministry\n\nto create divisions between the jews who were doing things the current way vs. those planning to follow\n\nJesus and how he expected things to be done differently in the future.\n\n\n\nWhat changes were expected? No more \"eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth\" but rather \"turn the other cheek\" \n\nto use the oft-cited example. There are quite a few homophobic statements, acceptance of polygamy, \n\nglorification of war, use of maiming and dismemberment as legal punshments, etc. in the Old Testament, \n\nbut not in the New Testament.\n\n\n\nSo I have to wonder how many wives those Judean priests had...... \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-24T18:37:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, there is one notable anti-gay statement in the NT, but it's Paul,\nnot Jesus.\n\nAnd you're right to wonder how many wives the Sanhedrin might have had;\nPaul says that an elder (presbyter, priest) should have only one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Lee wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes: Not to be argumentative, but, no, Jesus' ministry was\n*not* an attack on\nJudaism; to the extent that it was an attack at all, it was an attack on\nthe hypocrisy of the priestly class. But Jesus did not see himself as\ndestroying Judaism (\"...not one jot or tittle of the Law shall be taken\naway...\") but fulfilling it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I won't take it as argument but as a point of discussion. It wasn't the\nmain point of my post, so\n\nI didn't elaborate. But in fairness I didn't just say \"Judaism\", I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jesus' ministry was an attack on the prevailing Judaic religion of his\ntime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By which I meant the practice of Judaism as administered by the priestly\nclass of Judea. The\n\nSanhedrin made it clear they weren't happy with Jesus' ministry and\nconsidered it a threat. Even\n\ntoday, there are certain Christians AND Jews who deny Jesus was jewish.\n\n\n\nI think there were times when the words of Jesus imply he considered his\ngoal to be bringing\n\nback a lost purity to Judaism. Though the Old Testament consistently\nimplies that the Hebrews were\n\na constant disappointment to God. (small wonder that guilt is an important\npart of being jewish ;- ))\n\n\n\nBut other times Jesus seemed to acknowledge that he was bringing something\nnew to the table\n\n(even if fulfilling ancient prophecy). For some reason Luke 12:51 and\nMatthew 10-34 come to mind,\n\nwhere Jesus notes that he has not come to bring peace but rather division\nand a sword- setting family\n\nmembers against each other, etc.\n\n\n\nI take this as a, if not transparent, then translucent way of Jesus saying\nthat he expected his ministry\n\nto create divisions between the jews who were doing things the current way\nvs. those planning to follow\n\nJesus and how he expected things to be done differently in the future.\n\n\n\nWhat changes were expected? No more \"eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth\"\nbut rather \"turn the other cheek\"\n\nto use the oft-cited example. There are quite a few homophobic\nstatements, acceptance of polygamy,\n\nglorification of war, use of maiming and dismemberment as legal\npunshments, etc. in the Old Testament,\n\nbut not in the New Testament.\n\n\n\nSo I have to wonder how many wives those Judean priests had......\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D02DAD4@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2015-04-24T20:08:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Paul has an anti-gay statement. He says that gays are as bad as gossips!\n\nRick\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\nSent: Friday, April 24, 2015 2:38 PM\nTo: The Urth Mailing List\nSubject: Re: (urth) Latro\n\nActually, there is one notable anti-gay statement in the NT, but it's Paul, not Jesus.\n\nAnd you're right to wonder how many wives the Sanhedrin might have had; Paul says that an elder (presbyter, priest) should have only one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Lee > wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes: Not to be argumentative, but, no, Jesus' ministry was *not* an attack on\nJudaism; to the extent that it was an attack at all, it was an attack on\nthe hypocrisy of the priestly class. But Jesus did not see himself as\ndestroying Judaism (\"...not one jot or tittle of the Law shall be taken\naway...\") but fulfilling it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't take it as argument but as a point of discussion. It wasn't the main point of my post, so\n\nI didn't elaborate. But in fairness I didn't just say \"Judaism\", I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jesus' ministry was an attack on the prevailing Judaic religion of his time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By which I meant the practice of Judaism as administered by the priestly class of Judea. The\n\nSanhedrin made it clear they weren't happy with Jesus' ministry and considered it a threat. Even\n\ntoday, there are certain Christians AND Jews who deny Jesus was jewish.\n\n\n\nI think there were times when the words of Jesus imply he considered his goal to be bringing\n\nback a lost purity to Judaism. Though the Old Testament consistently implies that the Hebrews were\n\na constant disappointment to God. (small wonder that guilt is an important part of being jewish ;- ))\n\n\n\nBut other times Jesus seemed to acknowledge that he was bringing something new to the table\n\n(even if fulfilling ancient prophecy). For some reason Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10-34 come to mind,\n\nwhere Jesus notes that he has not come to bring peace but rather division and a sword- setting family\n\nmembers against each other, etc.\n\n\n\nI take this as a, if not transparent, then translucent way of Jesus saying that he expected his ministry\n\nto create divisions between the jews who were doing things the current way vs. those planning to follow\n\nJesus and how he expected things to be done differently in the future.\n\n\n\nWhat changes were expected? No more \"eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth\" but rather \"turn the other cheek\"\n\nto use the oft-cited example. There are quite a few homophobic statements, acceptance of polygamy,\n\nglorification of war, use of maiming and dismemberment as legal punshments, etc. in the Old Testament,\n\nbut not in the New Testament.\n\n\n\nSo I have to wonder how many wives those Judean priests had......" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-24T22:02:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 24/04/2015, ?s 19:20, Lee escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't elaborate. But in fairness I didn't just say \"Judaism\", I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jesus' ministry was an attack on the prevailing Judaic religion of his time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By which I meant the practice of Judaism as administered by the priestly class of Judea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jesus was certainly opposed to the Saducees. There is no dearth of verses chiding them as enemies of God.\nBut not every priest was a Saducee, not even the whole Sanhedrin, and the evidence is that the common Jew didn't do anything regarding religion that Jesus especially condemned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Even \ntoday, there are certain Christians AND Jews who deny Jesus was jewish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Nietzsche questioned if Socrates was Greek!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No more \"eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth\" but rather \"turn the other cheek\" " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doubtless a major change, but let's not male the former worse than it was: it is an injunction by God to not be disproportionate in replying to aggression. Something to heed even today!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<553CF6F1.4040304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2015-04-26T14:32:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D02DAD4@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And no one is more gossipy than \"the gays.\" Worse than a houseful of wives!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/24/2015 4:08 PM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson wrote:\n\nYes, Paul has an anti-gay statement. He says that gays are as bad as \ngossips!\n\nRick\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Dan'l \nDanehy-Oakes\n*Sent:* Friday, April 24, 2015 2:38 PM\n*To:* The Urth Mailing List\n*Subject:* Re: (urth) Latro\n\nActually, there is one notable anti-gay statement in the NT, but it's \nPaul, not Jesus.\n\nAnd you're right to wonder how many wives the Sanhedrin might have \nhad; Paul says that an elder (presbyter, priest) should have only one.\n\nOn Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:20 AM, Lee > wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Not to be argumentative, but, no, Jesus' ministry \nwas *not* an attack on\nJudaism; to the extent that it was an attack at all, it was an attack on\nthe hypocrisy of the priestly class. But Jesus did not see himself as\ndestroying Judaism (\"...not one jot or tittle of the Law shall be taken\naway...\") but fulfilling it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I won't take it as argument but as a point of discussion. It wasn't \nthe main point of my post, so\n\nI didn't elaborate. But in fairness I didn't just say \"Judaism\", I said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jesus' ministry was an attack on the prevailing Judaic religion of \nhis time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By which I meant the practice of Judaism as administered by the \npriestly class of Judea. The\n\nSanhedrin made it clear they weren't happy with Jesus' ministry and \nconsidered it a threat. Even\n\ntoday, there are certain Christians AND Jews who deny Jesus was jewish.\n\n\n\nI think there were times when the words of Jesus imply he considered \nhis goal to be bringing\n\nback a lost purity to Judaism. Though the Old Testament consistently \nimplies that the Hebrews were\n\na constant disappointment to God. (small wonder that guilt is an \nimportant part of being jewish ;- ))\n\n\n\nBut other times Jesus seemed to acknowledge that he was bringing \nsomething new to the table\n\n(even if fulfilling ancient prophecy). For some reason Luke 12:51 and \nMatthew 10-34 come to mind,\n\nwhere Jesus notes that he has not come to bring peace but rather \ndivision and a sword- setting family\n\nmembers against each other, etc.\n\n\n\nI take this as a, if not transparent, then translucent way of Jesus \nsaying that he expected his ministry\n\nto create divisions between the jews who were doing things the current \nway vs. those planning to follow\n\nJesus and how he expected things to be done differently in the future.\n\n\n\nWhat changes were expected? No more \"eye for an eye, tooth for a \ntooth\" but rather \"turn the other cheek\"\n\nto use the oft-cited example. There are quite a few homophobic \nstatements, acceptance of polygamy,\n\nglorification of war, use of maiming and dismemberment as legal \npunshments, etc. in the Old Testament,\n\nbut not in the New Testament.\n\n\n\nSo I have to wonder how many wives those Judean priests had......\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<553CF7D1.3020201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2015-04-26T14:36:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is that. But what head wound do you mean---from the crown of thorns?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/24/2015 11:15 AM, Lee wrote:\nWas Jesus, who had his own head wound, not crucified, flanked by two \"thieves\"?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-27T16:18:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<553CF7D1.3020201@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: And you're right to wonder how many wives the Sanhedrin might have had;\nPaul says that an elder (presbyter, priest) should have only one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for that confirming info. I find the proscription against polygamy to be the most \n\nanthropological/sociologically profound difference between Christianity and its predecessors and \n\ncompetitors, yet it is so rarely discussed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Jesus was certainly opposed to the Saducees. There is no dearth of verses " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "chiding them as enemies of God. But not every priest was a Saducee, not even the whole Sanhedrin, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and the evidence is that the common Jew didn't do anything regarding religion that Jesus especially " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "condemned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you are right that there was a special place in Jesus' heart for the common man. But there was\n\n(and perhaps still is) a belief among jews of the time that those with wealth, status and power had \n\nbeen specially blessed by God.\n\n\nBut over and over, the message of Jesus is that the lofty trappings of wealth and high social status\n\nin this world are not only irrelevant to the Kingdom of Heaven but can be seen as signs of disfavor \n\nwith God. The Eye of the Needle and Good Samaritan parables come to mind as generally critical of\n\nthe wealthy and the superior, priestly castes of Cohains and Levites.\n\n\nThis is what I meant by saying Jesus' ministry was an attack on the prevailing practice of Judaism at\n\nthe time. It was rather centered around reverence for wealth, power and inherited social status. \n\n\n(There are some arguments that much of Jesus' ministry was a veiled criticism of jewish toleration and\n\nveneration of Roman rule but that's controversial and a whole other can of worms to open.) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-27T16:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee,\n\nJesus' concern/love for the poor/common man was actually a continuation/\nconfirmation of what several of the Prophets in the Old Testament had said\non the subject.\n\nIt would not be at all accurate to say that Second Temple Judaism was\ncentered on \"reverence for wealth, power, and inherited social status.\"\nIndeed, the Law made a number of exceptions, especially in the matter of\nrequired sacrifices, for the poor. (The Presentation of Jesus in the Gospel\naccording to Luke illustrates this: when Joseph and Mary take Jesus to be\n\"redeemed\" at the Temple, they buy and offer two doves, which is the\nsacrifice of \"those who cannot afford a lamb.\")\n\nSecond Temple Judaism was very much centered on the Law of Cleanliness, or\nritual purity. Even a poor man's house would have a _mikvah_, a basin where\nyou would wash your hands before entering or eating. (It was the water for\nthe _mikvah_ that Jesus turned to wine in the wedding at Cana.)\n\nAnd, yes, Jesus is quite critical of the wealthy _who do not care for the\npoor_. In general, His deepest scorn is reserved for hypocrites; consider,\nfor example, the parable of the Goats and Sheep, in which many who claim\nHim as Lord but did not care for the unfortunate* are told \"I never knew\nyou,\" while those who did care for the unfortunate but didn't know Him are\ntold, \"It was Me you served all along.\"\n\n-----\n* not only the poor, but the sick, crippled, weak, and imprisoned.\n-----\n\nThe point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is similar: the hypocrisy\nand selfishness of the Kohain and the Levite are contrasted with the\nearnest caring of the Samaritan: and it must be remembered that to a Jew of\nthe Second Temple, \"Samaritan\" was something like \"Palestinian\" must be to\nan Israeli today, or like \"Black\" was to a white South African during the\nApartheid days. Someone lesser, unclean, a bit disgusting, and definitely\nan enemy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 9:18 AM, Lee wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes: And you're right to wonder how many wives the\nSanhedrin might have had;\nPaul says that an elder (presbyter, priest) should have only one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks for that confirming info. I find the proscription against polygamy\nto be the most\n\nanthropological/sociologically profound difference between Christianity\nand its predecessors and\n\ncompetitors, yet it is so rarely discussed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Pedro Marques: Jesus was certainly opposed to the Saducees. There\nis no dearth of verses" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "chiding them as enemies of God. But not every priest was a Saducee, not\neven the whole Sanhedrin," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and the evidence is that the common Jew didn't do anything regarding\nreligion that Jesus especially" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "condemned." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you are right that there was a special place in Jesus' heart for\nthe common man. But there was\n\n(and perhaps still is) a belief among jews of the time that those with\nwealth, status and power had\n\nbeen specially blessed by God.\n\n\nBut over and over, the message of Jesus is that the lofty trappings of\nwealth and high social status\n\nin this world are not only irrelevant to the Kingdom of Heaven but can be\nseen as signs of disfavor\n\nwith God. The Eye of the Needle and Good Samaritan parables come to mind\nas generally critical of\n\nthe wealthy and the superior, priestly castes of Cohains and Levites.\n\n\nThis is what I meant by saying Jesus' ministry was an attack on the\nprevailing practice of Judaism at\n\nthe time. It was rather centered around reverence for wealth, power and\ninherited social status.\n\n\n(There are some arguments that much of Jesus' ministry was a veiled\ncriticism of jewish toleration and\n\nveneration of Roman rule but that's controversial and a whole other can of\nworms to open.)\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-27T17:08:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Lee, Jesus' concern/love for the poor/common man was actually a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "continuation/ confirmation of what several of the Prophets in the Old Testament had said " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on the subject." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, of course. Makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would not be at all accurate to say that Second Temple Judaism was centered on \"reverence for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wealth, power, and inherited social status.\" Indeed, the Law made a number of exceptions, especially " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the matter of required sacrifices, for the poor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be argumentative, but as you note, these were \"exceptions\" for the poor. Meaning the general\n\nrule was that sacrificing a portion of your wealth WAS an essential part of being a good jew, at the time.\n\nAnd who got that portion of your wealth? The ruling class of the priesthood.\n\n\nConcomitantly, if the admiration of personal wealth and power and status wasn't an important part of \n\nJudaic religion at the time, why would Jesus spend so much time preaching against it, especially the role\n\nof the priestly castes? \n\n\nAren't such things a part of human nature? Don't we still hear sermons against worshipping money and \n\npower? I can't imagine that Judean Hebrews were so different about that than everyone else, including \n\nwe of modern society.\n\n\nI suspect we are not really in disagreement on this issue. Perhaps it is only a matter of how things are \n\nworded. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D02DD38@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "from": { "name": "Norwood, Frederick Hudson", "address": "norwoodr at mail.etsu.edu" }, "date": "2015-04-27T17:13:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I no longer go to church, but when I did the sermons were mostly about the importance for Christians to always vote for the Republican party. I remember one sermon about the camel passing through the eye of a needle. The preacher explained that \"the eye of a needle\" was the name of the gate that the rich used to enter Jerusalem and so the point of the parable is that naturally the rich would use that gate to enter heaven. \n\nRick\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Lee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent: Monday, April 27, 2015 1:08 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Latro\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes: Lee, Jesus' concern/love for the poor/common man was actually a " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "continuation/ confirmation of what several of the Prophets in the Old Testament had said " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on the subject." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, of course. Makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would not be at all accurate to say that Second Temple Judaism was centered on \"reverence for " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "wealth, power, and inherited social status.\" Indeed, the Law made a number of exceptions, especially " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the matter of required sacrifices, for the poor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to be argumentative, but as you note, these were \"exceptions\" for the poor. Meaning the general\n\nrule was that sacrificing a portion of your wealth WAS an essential part of being a good jew, at the time.\n\nAnd who got that portion of your wealth? The ruling class of the priesthood.\n\n\nConcomitantly, if the admiration of personal wealth and power and status wasn't an important part of \n\nJudaic religion at the time, why would Jesus spend so much time preaching against it, especially the role\n\nof the priestly castes? \n\n\nAren't such things a part of human nature? Don't we still hear sermons against worshipping money and \n\npower? I can't imagine that Judean Hebrews were so different about that than everyone else, including \n\nwe of modern society.\n\n\nI suspect we are not really in disagreement on this issue. Perhaps it is only a matter of how things are \n\nworded. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-27T17:23:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D02DD38@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've heard that about the needle's eye gate, too, but according to\nWikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Gate), there's no\nreal evidence for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nI no longer go to church, but when I did the sermons were mostly about the\nimportance for Christians to always vote for the Republican party. I\nremember one sermon about the camel passing through the eye of a needle.\nThe preacher explained that \"the eye of a needle\" was the name of the gate\nthat the rich used to enter Jerusalem and so the point of the parable is\nthat naturally the rich would use that gate to enter heaven.\n\nRick\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Lee\nSent: Monday, April 27, 2015 1:08 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Latro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Lee, Jesus' concern/love for the poor/common man was\nactually a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "continuation/ confirmation of what several of the Prophets in the Old\nTestament had said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on the subject." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, of course. Makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would not be at all accurate to say that Second Temple Judaism was\ncentered on \"reverence for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wealth, power, and inherited social status.\" Indeed, the Law made a\nnumber of exceptions, especially" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in the matter of required sacrifices, for the poor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be argumentative, but as you note, these were \"exceptions\" for the\npoor. Meaning the general\n\nrule was that sacrificing a portion of your wealth WAS an essential part\nof being a good jew, at the time.\n\nAnd who got that portion of your wealth? The ruling class of the\npriesthood.\n\n\nConcomitantly, if the admiration of personal wealth and power and status\nwasn't an important part of\n\nJudaic religion at the time, why would Jesus spend so much time preaching\nagainst it, especially the role\n\nof the priestly castes?\n\n\nAren't such things a part of human nature? Don't we still hear sermons\nagainst worshipping money and\n\npower? I can't imagine that Judean Hebrews were so different about that\nthan everyone else, including\n\nwe of modern society.\n\n\nI suspect we are not really in disagreement on this issue. Perhaps it is\nonly a matter of how things are\n\nworded.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-27T17:33:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D02DD38@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It was still supposed to be a tight fit even if it was a gate ... the point\nis you can't get through if you are encumbered with stuff ... maybe that\npreacher needs some reading comprehension lessons ... not sure which\ndenomination you were, but possibly the most infuriating thing to me about\nsome fundamentalists is they have very poor basic reading skills ... even\nif one buys into inerrancy (which I certainly don't) it doesnt mean you\ncant misread ...\n\nAsk a fundamentalist if the good samaritan was a real person who actually\nlived." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Apr 27, 2015 10:13 AM, \"Norwood, Frederick Hudson\" <\nNORWOODR at mail.etsu.edu> wrote:\nI no longer go to church, but when I did the sermons were mostly about the\nimportance for Christians to always vote for the Republican party. I\nremember one sermon about the camel passing through the eye of a needle.\nThe preacher explained that \"the eye of a needle\" was the name of the gate\nthat the rich used to enter Jerusalem and so the point of the parable is\nthat naturally the rich would use that gate to enter heaven.\n\nRick\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Lee\nSent: Monday, April 27, 2015 1:08 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Latro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Lee, Jesus' concern/love for the poor/common man was\nactually a" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "continuation/ confirmation of what several of the Prophets in the Old\nTestament had said" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on the subject." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, of course. Makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would not be at all accurate to say that Second Temple Judaism was\ncentered on \"reverence for" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "wealth, power, and inherited social status.\" Indeed, the Law made a\nnumber of exceptions, especially" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "in the matter of required sacrifices, for the poor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be argumentative, but as you note, these were \"exceptions\" for the\npoor. Meaning the general\n\nrule was that sacrificing a portion of your wealth WAS an essential part\nof being a good jew, at the time.\n\nAnd who got that portion of your wealth? The ruling class of the\npriesthood.\n\n\nConcomitantly, if the admiration of personal wealth and power and status\nwasn't an important part of\n\nJudaic religion at the time, why would Jesus spend so much time preaching\nagainst it, especially the role\n\nof the priestly castes?\n\n\nAren't such things a part of human nature? Don't we still hear sermons\nagainst worshipping money and\n\npower? I can't imagine that Judean Hebrews were so different about that\nthan everyone else, including\n\nwe of modern society.\n\n\nI suspect we are not really in disagreement on this issue. Perhaps it is\nonly a matter of how things are\n\nworded.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-27T17:53:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marc Aramini: It was still supposed to be a tight fit even if it was a gate ... the point\nis you can't get through if you are encumbered with stuff ... maybe that\npreacher needs some reading comprehension lessons ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that preacher knew what he was doing Marc. Rick noted that the main point of \n\nthe sermons was to \"Vote Republican\". Reinterpreting the \"Camel through the eye of a needle\"\n\nparable was this preacher's way of undercutting the obvious meaning of Jesus' words and\n\nsaying \"Hey, don't worry if you are rich. You can still go to heaven as easily as anyone else\".\n\n\">This is an impressive crowd -- the haves and the have-mores. Some people call you the elite; " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I call you my base.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-GEORGE W. BUSH, speech to Al Smith Dinner for charity, Oct. 20, 2000 \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<553E91F2.2080804@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2015-04-27T19:45:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "<0DA454A32913114C9CC19BB781FB907D02DD38@ETSUMB2.etsu.edu>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Riding a camel, I'm sure. Makes sense!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/27/2015 1:13 PM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson wrote:\nI no longer go to church, but when I did the sermons were mostly about the importance for Christians to always vote for the Republican party. I remember one sermon about the camel passing through the eye of a needle. The preacher explained that \"the eye of a needle\" was the name of the gate that the rich used to enter Jerusalem and so the point of the parable is that naturally the rich would use that gate to enter heaven.\n\nRick\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Lee\nSent: Monday, April 27, 2015 1:08 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: (urth) Latro" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes: Lee, Jesus' concern/love for the poor/common man was actually a\ncontinuation/ confirmation of what several of the Prophets in the Old Testament had said\non the subject." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure, of course. Makes sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would not be at all accurate to say that Second Temple Judaism was centered on \"reverence for\nwealth, power, and inherited social status.\" Indeed, the Law made a number of exceptions, especially\nin the matter of required sacrifices, for the poor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to be argumentative, but as you note, these were \"exceptions\" for the poor. Meaning the general\n\nrule was that sacrificing a portion of your wealth WAS an essential part of being a good jew, at the time.\n\nAnd who got that portion of your wealth? The ruling class of the priesthood.\n\n\nConcomitantly, if the admiration of personal wealth and power and status wasn't an important part of\n\nJudaic religion at the time, why would Jesus spend so much time preaching against it, especially the role\n\nof the priestly castes?\n\n\nAren't such things a part of human nature? Don't we still hear sermons against worshipping money and\n\npower? I can't imagine that Judean Hebrews were so different about that than everyone else, including\n\nwe of modern society.\n\n\nI suspect we are not really in disagreement on this issue. Perhaps it is only a matter of how things are\n\nworded. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<553F9F45.4090008@colby.edu>", "from": { "name": "Fernando Q. Gouvea", "address": "fqgouvea at colby.edu" }, "date": "2015-04-28T14:55:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Latro", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And in fact plenty of evidence against it, including in ancient (but \npost-New Testament) Christian writings.\n\nI'll restrain myself from commenting on those sermons. Sheesh.\n\nFernando" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 4/27/2015 1:23 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI've heard that about the needle's eye gate, too, but according to \nWikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_a_needle#Gate), there's \nno real evidence for it.\n\nOn Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 10:13 AM, Norwood, Frederick Hudson \n> wrote:\n\n I no longer go to church, but when I did the sermons were mostly\n about the importance for Christians to always vote for the\n Republican party. I remember one sermon about the camel passing\n through the eye of a needle. The preacher explained that \"the eye\n of a needle\" was the name of the gate that the rich used to enter\n Jerusalem and so the point of the parable is that naturally the\n rich would use that gate to enter heaven.\n\n Rick" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "=============================================================\nFernando Q. Gouvea http://www.colby.edu/~fqgouvea\nCarter Professor and Chair\nDept. of Mathematics and Statistics\nColby College Editor, Carus Mathematical Monographs\n5836 Mayflower Hill Editor, MAA Reviews\nWaterville, ME 04901 http://www.maa.org/publications/maa-reviews\n\n When a nation's chief domestic product consists of greed, lust, oppression, cruelty, and lies, it needs to be salted until every green thing has withered.\n -- Peter Leithart" } ] } ] }