{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6749", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6749, "subject": "Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2015-04-28T20:26:14+00:00", "last": "2015-04-29T16:44:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-28T20:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can say fairly certainly that Chris is not Blackbeard. Textual evidence strongly suggests that?\n*Pirate Freedom* takes place (in its bulk) in the late 1670's. Edward Teach is generally thought to have been\nborn in 1680 or thereabouts so it seems impossible. Having read a great deal on pirates lately, I have not\nbeen able to pinpoint any that scream out as being \"who Chris is\". My own thoughts are that he is\nnot meant to be a stand-in for any particular historical pirate.\n\nOn April 28, 2015 Robin B. Smith wrote:\nsince Pirate Freedom was brought up here, before I go off and start a new\nemail chain, I've been wondering: has it been discussed that Chris may be\nBlackbeard? (I did some cursory searching previously, but found no\ndiscussion of that point expressly)\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin B. Smith", "address": "robinbsmith at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-28T21:04:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Please keep in mind that I'm putting this forth as an hypothesis to be\nconsidered, off of just some loose thinking.\n\nI haven't had a re-read to scrutinize and make a better case for this\nconjecture, but here's the gist: after returning as Ignacio to the past,\nand past the events within the book, he recovers the treasure and lives out\nhis life of Pirate Freedom as Blackbeard (inventing the Edward Teach\nbiography, etc.)\n\n- based on the chronology worked out by Ed Edson, there seems to be a\nsuggestion by Chris that at the time of writing (2017) that he will have\ndied 300 years prior, 1717, roughly the date of Blackbeard's death and the\nend of the golden age of piracy -- this struck me as a clue, especially\nsince he make a point of also including the date of Blackbeard's death\nwithin the text\n\n- Blackbeard is mentioned once (if I recall correctly) by Chris in the text\nand then is listed in the glossary; in the glossary he is stated to be\nEdward Teach, which I feel could not-too-implausibly be a trick by Wolfe to\nobscure--explicitly giving the name of Blackbeard to throw detectives off.\n\n- Blackbeard's MO of making a show and trying to minimize killing seems to\nalign pretty nicely with Chris's own feelings\n\n- Wolfe likes elaborating history with fiction -- I'm specifically inspired\nby The Devil in a Forest; he could have conceived of this as a grand\nopportunity to weave his own threads into the tapestry of piracy (along\nwith a counter-intuitive chance to do time-travel)\n\n- It feels like something Wolfe might get a kick out of doing\n\nI'm well aware that this is not much of a case nor is it strictly based on\nevidence, and it does have some faulty lines of reasoning. I'm going on my\nfeeling here, for the book and for Wolfe, and it is at least fun to\nconsider (so please, don't immediately discard it out of hand)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Robert Pirkola \nwrote:\nI can say fairly certainly that Chris is not Blackbeard. Textual evidence\nstrongly suggests that\n*Pirate Freedom* takes place (in its bulk) in the late 1670's. Edward\nTeach is generally thought to have been\nborn in 1680 or thereabouts so it seems impossible. Having read a great\ndeal on pirates lately, I have not\nbeen able to pinpoint any that scream out as being \"who Chris is\". My own\nthoughts are that he is\nnot meant to be a stand-in for any particular historical pirate.\n\nOn April 28, 2015 Robin B. Smith wrote:\nsince Pirate Freedom was brought up here, before I go off and start a new\nemail chain, I've been wondering: has it been discussed that Chris may be\nBlackbeard? (I did some cursory searching previously, but found no\ndiscussion of that point expressly)\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-28T21:33:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Robin,\nI think you are on to something but maybe not quite what you were thinking. ?Since the narrative likely ends (in the past)\nsomewhere near 1680, the date of Blackbeard's supposed birth, it is probably more likely that Chris's son with Novia\nis Blackbeard if anyone is. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robin B. Smith", "address": "robinbsmith at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-28T22:09:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this possibility too! Makes me want to get to re-reading promptly\nand see if anything stands out with this in mind.\n\nI appreciate the discussion" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Robert Pirkola \nwrote:\nRobin,\nI think you are on to something but maybe not quite what you were\nthinking. Since the narrative likely ends (in the past)\nsomewhere near 1680, the date of Blackbeard's supposed birth, it is\nprobably more likely that Chris's son with Novia\nis Blackbeard if anyone is.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-29T04:26:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's an interesting theory, though Blackbeard was born in England." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Robin B. Smith \nwrote:\nI like this possibility too! Makes me want to get to re-reading promptly\nand see if anything stands out with this in mind.\n\nI appreciate the discussion\n\nOn Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Robert Pirkola \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Robin,\nI think you are on to something but maybe not quite what you were\nthinking. Since the narrative likely ends (in the past)\nsomewhere near 1680, the date of Blackbeard's supposed birth, it is\nprobably more likely that Chris's son with Novia\nis Blackbeard if anyone is.\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Pirkola", "address": "rpirkola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2015-04-29T15:13:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are correct Dan'l. “Though it is more likely that if anyone is Blackbeard it is Chris's child rather than”\nChris himself, it just seems to present too many insuperable problems. “Calico Jack, Mary Read and Anne Bonney\nare also mentioned in the character list at the end, but I don't believe they are there to tell us that\nCaptain Burt, Novia, or Estrellita are those historical people. ?Instead their respective biographies\nenlighten us to the surprising authenticity of what might otherwise be thought to be entirely from\nWolfe's imagination. ?”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On?Tue, Apr 28, 2015 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nWell, it's an interesting theory, though Blackbeard was born in England." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern at gwern.net" }, "date": "2015-04-29T15:33:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This has been suggested before, but I don't think anyone has offered a\ngood answer to: why should Chris or Chris's son becoming Blackbeard be\nthe esoteric meaning of _Pirate Freedom_? What thematic sense does it\nmake or depth add?\n\nWhen you realize (or more likely, are told) that Weer is an unquiet\nghost in _Peace_, suddenly all the vague musings and recollections\nsnap into place as you have been given a skeleton key to Weer's past\nsins.\nWhen you learn that the Hierodules and futures have been manipulating\nSeverian all along to turn him into the Autarch who can renew Urth,\nthen likewise one begins to understand much of _New Sun_.\nWith _Long Sun_, we have a good man worshipping false gods who\neventually transcends them in becoming a great man. And so on.\n(I would say part of why _An Evil Guest_ and other recent Wolfe novels\nare so unsatisfactory is that no one has figured out an esoteric\nreading which seems to justify and improve on the exoteric narration\nof events, rather than be relatively minor plot events on the order of\n'at the end of _Sorcerer's House_ the protagonist kills and replaces\nhis twin'.)\n\nBut with Blackbeard, saying Chris/son become him is fun, certainly,\nand a cute link, but it doesn't seem to change the story significantly\nlike it should. Unless someone can think of a way in which that link\nmakes things much more profound and meaningful, I think Blackbeard is\na dead end and we're stuck with existing lines of inquiry about the\nother captain being Chris molding his younger self (which sounds like\nit could be interesting and at least has some Wolfean precedent in\n_Three Heads of Cerberus_)." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern\nhttp://www.gwern.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1227632369.573124.1430325860879.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2015-04-29T16:44:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Pirate Freedom: Is Chris Blackbeard?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably, the theory would require a rewrite (i.e., falsification, probably by Chris/Blackbeard himself) of Blackbeard's biography. Otherwise, Blackbeard: The Early Years would tend to invite disbelief. \n\n\n On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 12:26 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n \n \n\n Well, it's an interesting theory, though Blackbeard was born in England.\nOn Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 3:09 PM, Robin B. Smith wrote:\n\nI like this possibility too! Makes me want to get to re-reading promptly and see if anything stands out with this in mind.\nI appreciate the discussion\nOn Tue, Apr 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Robert Pirkola wrote:\n\nRobin,\nI think you are on to something but maybe not quite what you were thinking. Since the narrative likely ends (in the past)\nsomewhere near 1680, the date of Blackbeard's supposed birth, it is probably more likely that Chris's son with Novia\nis Blackbeard if anyone is." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Robin B. Smith\n\n\n\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] } ] }