{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6778", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6778, "subject": "Lictor", "messages": 24, "voices": 6, "first": "2018-02-17T14:10:05+00:00", "last": "2018-02-19T19:29:20+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<07507bff-069b-30d8-5887-4f927209f2ff@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-02-17T14:10:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). The \n\"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his servant. \nServant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The lictor is an \nofficial of the roman state but the term is also used for servitor in \nthe cult cult of Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104] \n with \nAntiochus I of Commagene . \n(Mt. Nemrut , 1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism" } ] }, { "message_id": "<077d2f22-3505-881a-591c-b03bd7974678@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-17T15:28:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<07507bff-069b-30d8-5887-4f927209f2ff@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a specific link \nto that?\n\nNevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of \nsimilarities to both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and to \nSeverian's \"secret history.\" It's closely allied with a branch of Roman \ngovernment and with Rome. A sword figures prominently in its symbology. \nSeverian becomes an outcast when he gives Thecla a blade, and he becomes \nAutarch when he kills the Autarch with a blade. He is often \nblood-covered, as with the sacrificial blood of a bull (sun symbol), but \nnever blood-stained.\n\nCultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and lions \nhave always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has been taken as \nAion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded time.\" Severian's \ngoing to Yesod and returning as the New Sun literally enacts this \nelevation to Leo.\n\nI had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\" That's \nsuggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that Severian's sword \n(The Sword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor that is never mentioned in \nthe text, but if the lictor is a servant of a secret god with whom a \ncovenant is held, then ... it fits.\n\nHidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\nThanks!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\n\nBy chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). The \n\"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his servant. \nServant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The lictor is an \nofficial of the roman state but the term is also used for servitor in \nthe cult cult of Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104] \n with \nAntiochus I of Commagene . \n(Mt. Nemrut , 1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4b9c4e1e-92cc-8024-d15b-3d084d61bf21@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-02-17T15:55:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<077d2f22-3505-881a-591c-b03bd7974678@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The link is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor\n\nThe only link to the Mithras cult I found was in Liddell & Scott's \ndictionary but without any specifics; I didn't find links to Mithras \nelsewhere.\n\n/???????????/, \"bull killing\" even suggests autarch(ktonos).\n\nAccording to Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony ) \"The \ntauroctony should not be confused with a \"taurobolium \n\", which was an actual \nbull-killing cult act performed by initiates of the Mysteries of Magna \nMater , and has nothing to do \nwith the Mithraic Mysteries.\n\nThe sacrificial symbolism is clear.\n\n\nOp 17-2-2018 om 16:28 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a specific \nlink to that?\n\nNevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of \nsimilarities to both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and to \nSeverian's \"secret history.\" It's closely allied with a branch of \nRoman government and with Rome. A sword figures prominently in its \nsymbology. Severian becomes an outcast when he gives Thecla a blade, \nand he becomes Autarch when he kills the Autarch with a blade. He is \noften blood-covered, as with the sacrificial blood of a bull (sun \nsymbol), but never blood-stained.\n\nCultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and \nlions have always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has been \ntaken as Aion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded time.\" \nSeverian's going to Yesod and returning as the New Sun literally \nenacts this elevation to Leo.\n\nI had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\" That's \nsuggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that Severian's sword \n(The Sword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor that is never mentioned \nin the text, but if the lictor is a servant of a secret god with whom \na covenant is held, then ... it fits.\n\nHidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\nThanks!\n\n\nOn 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). The \n\"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his servant. \nServant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The lictor is an \nofficial of the roman state but the term is also used for servitor in \nthe cult cult of Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104] \n with \nAntiochus I of Commagene . \n(Mt. Nemrut , \n1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-17T16:45:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<077d2f22-3505-881a-591c-b03bd7974678@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you mean about Severian's sword belonging to \"a\nlictor...never mentioned in the text.\" Severian is a lictor.\n\nThe Mithras thing also ties in with the Old Autarch being a castrato.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nThe spatula is the natural enemy of the hypothalamus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\nI don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a specific link\nto that?\n\nNevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of similarities\nto both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and to Severian's \"secret\nhistory.\" It's closely allied with a branch of Roman government and with\nRome. A sword figures prominently in its symbology. Severian becomes an\noutcast when he gives Thecla a blade, and he becomes Autarch when he kills\nthe Autarch with a blade. He is often blood-covered, as with the\nsacrificial blood of a bull (sun symbol), but never blood-stained.\n\nCultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and lions\nhave always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has been taken as\nAion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded time.\" Severian's\ngoing to Yesod and returning as the New Sun literally enacts this elevation\nto Leo.\n\nI had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\" That's\nsuggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that Severian's sword (The\nSword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor that is never mentioned in the\ntext, but if the lictor is a servant of a secret god with whom a covenant\nis held, then ... it fits.\n\nHidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\nThanks!\n\nOn 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\n\nBy chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). The\n\"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his servant.\nServant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The lictor is an official\nof the roman state but the term is also used for servitor in the cult cult\nof Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,[104]\n with\nAntiochus I of Commagene . (\nMt. Nemrut , 1st Century BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-17T16:46:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<4b9c4e1e-92cc-8024-d15b-3d084d61bf21@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes. Soldiers didn't have the money to kill all those bulls anyway. It \nwas pure symbolism, and the taurobolium wiki suggests that it was likely \nsymbolic even for the Great Mother mysteries. Who knows. But there still \nare symbolic reasons for Severian's fuligin cloak.\n\nI still don't see anything here about Greek servants or headsmen or \"the \neleven\" but it's clear that lictors were literally \"servants of the law\" \nor of the temple. Presumably it follows that the term would have been \nused in a Roman soldier's cult as well. Even for a Leo there were higher \ngrades, such as Pater, and the slaves, soldiers, and freemen who joined \nthe cult would have understood \"serving\" a god or his priest.\n\nI like \"tauroch/auroch\" and \"autarch.\" Funny that the real autarch \nvictim turns out to be associated with bees and honey---he's practically \na priest himself---because the two are closely linked in Greek cults. \nThe bee is one of Mithras' several symbolic animals and honey was part \nof Mithraic initiation rites, while the bull was eternally sacrificed \nand reborn. Sacrificed bulls became bees.\n\n\"To the ancients, the honey bee was not only a messenger but a direct \nrepresentative of the gods and goddesses of heaven and the airy realms....\n\nPorphyry (AD 233 to c.304) writes: The ancients gave the name of \nMelissae (bees) to the priestesses of Demeter who were initiates of the \nchthonian goddess; the name Melitodes to Kore herself: the moon \n(Artemis) too, whose province it was to bring to the birth, they called \nMelissa, because the moon being a bull and its ascension the bull, bees \nare begotten of bulls. And souls that pass to the earth are bull-begotten.\n\nArchaeologist Marija Gimbutas (1921 - 1994) writes of this passage by \nPorphyry: ...we learn that Artemis is a bee, Melissa, and that both she \nand the bull belong to the moon. Hence both are connected with the idea \nof a periodic regeneration. We also learn that souls are bees and that \nMelissa draws souls down to be born. The idea of a “life in death” in \nthis singularly interesting concept is expressed by the belief that the \nlife of the bull passed into that of the bees. \"\n\nhttps://mirrorofisis.freeyellow.com/id576.html" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2018 10:55 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\n\nThe link is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor\n\nThe only link to the Mithras cult I found was in Liddell & Scott's \ndictionary but without any specifics; I didn't find links to Mithras \nelsewhere.\n\n/???????????/, \"bull killing\" even suggests autarch(ktonos).\n\nAccording to Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony ) \"The \ntauroctony should not be confused with a \"taurobolium \n\", which was an actual \nbull-killing cult act performed by initiates of the Mysteries of Magna \nMater , and has nothing to \ndo with the Mithraic Mysteries.\n\nThe sacrificial symbolism is clear.\n\n\nOp 17-2-2018 om 16:28 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a specific \nlink to that?\n\nNevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of \nsimilarities to both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and to \nSeverian's \"secret history.\" It's closely allied with a branch of \nRoman government and with Rome. A sword figures prominently in its \nsymbology. Severian becomes an outcast when he gives Thecla a blade, \nand he becomes Autarch when he kills the Autarch with a blade. He is \noften blood-covered, as with the sacrificial blood of a bull (sun \nsymbol), but never blood-stained.\n\nCultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and \nlions have always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has been \ntaken as Aion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded time.\" \nSeverian's going to Yesod and returning as the New Sun literally \nenacts this elevation to Leo.\n\nI had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\" That's \nsuggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that Severian's \nsword (The Sword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor that is never \nmentioned in the text, but if the lictor is a servant of a secret god \nwith whom a covenant is held, then ... it fits.\n\nHidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\nThanks!\n\n\nOn 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "By chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). \nThe \"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his \nservant. Servant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The lictor \nis an official of the roman state but the term is also used for \nservitor in the cult cult of Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104] \n with \nAntiochus I of Commagene . \n(Mt. Nemrut , \n1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-17T16:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is Severian explicitly a lictor, and which definition fits him?\n\nYes, although the bull Mithras kills is not shown as a castrated one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2018 11:45 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nI'm not sure what you mean about Severian's sword belonging to \"a \nlictor...never mentioned in the text.\" Severian is a lictor.\n\nThe Mithras thing also ties in with the Old Autarch being a castrato.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nThe spatula is the natural enemy of the hypothalamus.\n\nOn Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n I don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a\n specific link to that?\n\n Nevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of\n similarities to both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and\n to Severian's \"secret history.\" It's closely allied with a branch\n of Roman government and with Rome. A sword figures prominently in\n its symbology. Severian becomes an outcast when he gives Thecla a\n blade, and he becomes Autarch when he kills the Autarch with a\n blade. He is often blood-covered, as with the sacrificial blood of\n a bull (sun symbol), but never blood-stained.\n\n Cultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and\n lions have always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has\n been taken as Aion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded\n time.\" Severian's going to Yesod and returning as the New Sun\n literally enacts this elevation to Leo.\n\n I had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\"\n That's suggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that\n Severian's sword (The Sword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor\n that is never mentioned in the text, but if the lictor is a\n servant of a secret god with whom a covenant is held, then ... it\n fits.\n\n Hidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\n Thanks!\n\n\n On 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " By chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????).\n The \"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his\n servant. Servant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The\n lictor is an official of the roman state but the term is also\n used for servitor in the cult cult of Mithras.\n\n Mithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104]\n \n with Antiochus I of Commagene\n . (Mt. Nemrut\n , 1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n \n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-17T17:19:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is not described as a lictor as far as I recall, and while he \nserves a magistrate he does not arrest anyone. I don't recall him \ncarrying the fasces either, but rather his sword. Lictors were not \ntorturers or executioners.\n\nSo I don't agree that he fits the term as usually understood, even if \nhis position is broadly analogous. (The book does refer to other lictors \nwho are not remotely of the guild of torturers.) And I do not think that \nthe volume title refers merely to the fact that he briefly serves the \nmagistrate of Thrax as a jailer.\n\nIf you weren't referring to bulls, what are you proposing? Followers of \nMithras did not castrate themselves like the followers of Cybele. \nMithras was not castrated. His bull is shown as being castrated by a \nscorpion only as Mithras stabs him. That's not to say it doesn't fit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2018 11:58 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\"How is Severian explicitly a lictor, and which definition fits him?\"\n\n(in ancient Rome) an officer attending the consul or other magistrate, \nbearing the fasces, and executing sentences on offenders.\n\nThat is *exactly* the position Sev is in at the beginning of SotL.\n\nAnd I wasn't referring to the bull...\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nThe spatula is the natural enemy of the hypothalamus.\n\nOn Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 8:55 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n How is Severian explicitly a lictor, and which definition fits him?\n\n Yes, although the bull Mithras kills is not shown as a castrated one.\n\n\n On 2/17/2018 11:45 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I'm not sure what you mean about Severian's sword belonging to \"a\n lictor...never mentioned in the text.\" Severian is a lictor.\n\n The Mithras thing also ties in with the Old Autarch being a castrato.\n\n Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n The spatula is the natural enemy of the hypothalamus.\n\n On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 7:28 AM, David Stockhoff\n > wrote:\n\n I don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a\n specific link to that?\n\n Nevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of\n similarities to both early Xtianity, which is useful to\n Wolfe, and to Severian's \"secret history.\" It's closely\n allied with a branch of Roman government and with Rome. A\n sword figures prominently in its symbology. Severian becomes\n an outcast when he gives Thecla a blade, and he becomes\n Autarch when he kills the Autarch with a blade. He is often\n blood-covered, as with the sacrificial blood of a bull (sun\n symbol), but never blood-stained.\n\n Cultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos,\n and lions have always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic\n leo has been taken as Aion, who is the Greek god of eternity\n or \"unbounded time.\" Severian's going to Yesod and returning\n as the New Sun literally enacts this elevation to Leo.\n\n I had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\"\n That's suggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that\n Severian's sword (The Sword of the Lictor) belongs to a\n lictor that is never mentioned in the text, but if the lictor\n is a servant of a secret god with whom a covenant is held,\n then ... it fits.\n\n Hidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\n Thanks!\n\n\n On 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " By chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant\n (????????). The \"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the\n executioner or his servant. Servant is also the greek\n translation of Lictor. The lictor is an official of the\n roman state but the term is also used for servitor in the\n cult cult of Mithras.\n\n Mithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104]\n \n with Antiochus I of Commagene\n . (Mt. Nemrut\n , 1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\n https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n \n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-17T19:19:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather than kill him after what he does to thecla they tell him they got\nhim an appointment as Lictor of thrax - that’s his title there, explicitly.\nBut thanks for the bee bit I might have use of it in Land across." } ] }, { "message_id": "<8c9f374e-8955-34b1-fd29-edf526a3ebb2@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-17T19:40:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, good.\n\nIt struck me that in any thorough book about the New Sun, this bees = \nbulls thing would be hardly more than a footnote attached to a \ndiscussion of the old Autarch's potential identity as beekeeper. Which I \nthink it supports." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2018 2:19 PM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nRather than kill him after what he does to thecla they tell him they \ngot him an appointment as Lictor of thrax - that’s his title there, \nexplicitly. But thanks for the bee bit I might have use of it in Land \nacross.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-17T19:43:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<8c9f374e-8955-34b1-fd29-edf526a3ebb2@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, they have a \"concrete\" (literal but not literary?) meaning. But \nthey surely have other meanings, because the literal one is, well, \nfairly meaningless. This is standard Wolfe stuff.\n\nYes, Severian is an armed state employee. The torturer has a shadow. So \nwhat?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/17/2018 1:56 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWhereas I am suggesting that, just as the other three titles do, the \ntitle of volume 3 has a direct literal meaning.\n\nAs for castration, I confess I was confusing Mithras with Cybele.\n\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\nThe spatula is the natural enemy of the hypothalamus.\n\nOn Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 10:04 AM, David Stockhoff \n> wrote:\n\n\n\n I should clarify. Severian is indeed the \"Lictor of Thrax,\" but he is\n not a lictor in any other sense that corresponds to the meaning of\n \"lictor.\" For example, Roman towns didn't have one lictor, although\n there were not many of them even in Rome.\n\n Wolfe is using the word to mean something else, just as he uses\n \"pandour\" to mean a half-beast soldier instead of a Croatian\n mercenary.\n\n In other words, when we encounter the volume title, it has no literal\n meaning outside the book, since Severian is not a lictor. I am\n proposing\n that it has a suggestive meaning that is only enhanced by the Mithraic\n connection.\n\n For example, a Roman lictor \"clears the way\" for his master (which\n Severian doesn't ever actually do in Thrax as far as I recall, but I\n could be wrong). If this is intended, I assure you that the\n reference is\n not to the magistrate of Thrax any more than it is to a magistrate\n of Rome.\n\n\n\n\n\n ---\n This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\n https://www.avast.com/antivirus " } ] }, { "message_id": "<737e15e5-c8d0-d828-2003-7e744bb0c405@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-02-17T23:56:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant to say it isn't obvious that a lictor is an executioner as well \nas a servitor of Mithras which connection the Greek word ????????? \nsupplies. It would be interesting to know what the function of the \nlictor was? in the ritual.\n\nBees and honey, Samson killed the lion. Remember his hair and riddle. I \nbelieve Robert Graves (contested off course) said that he was originally \na sun hero before being worked over? in Hebrew scripture. The record of \ngathering honey goes back to neolithic times as shown by rock paintings \nin Spain (Cova de l'Aranya).\n\nSo bees carry a complex symbolism being both associated with the sun and \nthe moon among different cultures.\n\nI am reading the Life of Plotin by Porphyry at the moment. In fact that \nis the reason I had to look up the word ????????. Rogatianus was a pupil \nof Plotin. a senator. so philosophically detached he refused to appear \nin public as a praetor even when the *lictors* were already there. He \nalso gave up his property etc. besides the office. That made me think \nabout Severian.\n\n\nOp 17-2-2018 om 17:46 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes. Soldiers didn't have the money to kill all those bulls anyway. It \nwas pure symbolism, and the taurobolium wiki suggests that it was \nlikely symbolic even for the Great Mother mysteries. Who knows. But \nthere still are symbolic reasons for Severian's fuligin cloak.\n\nI still don't see anything here about Greek servants or headsmen or \n\"the eleven\" but it's clear that lictors were literally \"servants of \nthe law\" or of the temple. Presumably it follows that the term would \nhave been used in a Roman soldier's cult as well. Even for a Leo there \nwere higher grades, such as Pater, and the slaves, soldiers, and \nfreemen who joined the cult would have understood \"serving\" a god or \nhis priest.\n\nI like \"tauroch/auroch\" and \"autarch.\" Funny that the real autarch \nvictim turns out to be associated with bees and honey---he's \npractically a priest himself---because the two are closely linked in \nGreek cults. The bee is one of Mithras' several symbolic animals and \nhoney was part of Mithraic initiation rites, while the bull was \neternally sacrificed and reborn. Sacrificed bulls became bees.\n\n\"To the ancients, the honey bee was not only a messenger but a direct \nrepresentative of the gods and goddesses of heaven and the airy realms....\n\nPorphyry (AD 233 to c.304) writes: The ancients gave the name of \nMelissae (bees) to the priestesses of Demeter who were initiates of \nthe chthonian goddess; the name Melitodes to Kore herself: the moon \n(Artemis) too, whose province it was to bring to the birth, they \ncalled Melissa, because the moon being a bull and its ascension the \nbull, bees are begotten of bulls. And souls that pass to the earth \nare bull-begotten.\n\nArchaeologist Marija Gimbutas (1921 - 1994) writes of this passage by \nPorphyry: ...we learn that Artemis is a bee, Melissa, and that both \nshe and the bull belong to the moon. Hence both are connected with \nthe idea of a periodic regeneration. We also learn that souls are \nbees and that Melissa draws souls down to be born. The idea of a \n“life in death” in this singularly interesting concept is expressed by \nthe belief that the life of the bull passed into that of the bees. \"\n\nhttps://mirrorofisis.freeyellow.com/id576.html\n\n\n\nOn 2/17/2018 10:55 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The link is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor\n\nThe only link to the Mithras cult I found was in Liddell & Scott's \ndictionary but without any specifics; I didn't find links to Mithras \nelsewhere.\n\n/???????????/, \"bull killing\" even suggests autarch(ktonos).\n\nAccording to Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony ) \"The \ntauroctony should not be confused with a \"taurobolium \n\", which was an actual \nbull-killing cult act performed by initiates of the Mysteries of \nMagna Mater , and has \nnothing to do with the Mithraic Mysteries.\n\nThe sacrificial symbolism is clear.\n\n\nOp 17-2-2018 om 16:28 schreef David Stockhoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a specific \nlink to that?\n\nNevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of \nsimilarities to both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and \nto Severian's \"secret history.\" It's closely allied with a branch of \nRoman government and with Rome. A sword figures prominently in its \nsymbology. Severian becomes an outcast when he gives Thecla a blade, \nand he becomes Autarch when he kills the Autarch with a blade. He is \noften blood-covered, as with the sacrificial blood of a bull (sun \nsymbol), but never blood-stained.\n\nCultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and \nlions have always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has \nbeen taken as Aion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded \ntime.\" Severian's going to Yesod and returning as the New Sun \nliterally enacts this elevation to Leo.\n\nI had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\" That's \nsuggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that Severian's \nsword (The Sword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor that is never \nmentioned in the text, but if the lictor is a servant of a secret \ngod with whom a covenant is held, then ... it fits.\n\nHidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\nThanks!\n\n\nOn 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "By chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). \nThe \"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his \nservant. Servant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The \nlictor is an official of the roman state but the term is also used \nfor servitor in the cult cult of Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,^[104] \n \nwith Antiochus I of Commagene \n. (Mt. Nemrut \n, 1st?Century?BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Leb", "address": "leb.gerald at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-18T05:50:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<737e15e5-c8d0-d828-2003-7e744bb0c405@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In Thrax, based on the letter from The Guild, Severian is appointed Lictor.\nAs such, he is the chief law enforcement officer of Thrax, responsible for\nthe prison, the barbican, the personal security of the Archon, and also, in\nthe final scene of his holding of the office, he is detailed to perform the\nmurder of a subject, Cyriaca. He refuses to kill her, and flees. In the\nbook, as far as I can recall, there are no references to Severian in any\ncontext that could possibly be connected to the earthly faith of Mithraism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Feb 17, 2018 at 6:56 PM, Ab de Vos wrote:\nI meant to say it isn't obvious that a lictor is an executioner as well as\na servitor of Mithras which connection the Greek word ???????? supplies.\nIt would be interesting to know what the function of the lictor was in the\nritual.\n\nBees and honey, Samson killed the lion. Remember his hair and riddle. I\nbelieve Robert Graves (contested off course) said that he was originally a\nsun hero before being worked over in Hebrew scripture. The record of\ngathering honey goes back to neolithic times as shown by rock paintings in\nSpain (Cova de l'Aranya).\n\nSo bees carry a complex symbolism being both associated with the sun and\nthe moon among different cultures.\n\nI am reading the Life of Plotin by Porphyry at the moment. In fact that is\nthe reason I had to look up the word ????????. Rogatianus was a pupil of\nPlotin. a senator. so philosophically detached he refused to appear in\npublic as a praetor even when the *lictors* were already there. He also\ngave up his property etc. besides the office. That made me think about\nSeverian.\n\nOp 17-2-2018 om 17:46 schreef David Stockhoff:\n\nYes. Soldiers didn't have the money to kill all those bulls anyway. It was\npure symbolism, and the taurobolium wiki suggests that it was likely\nsymbolic even for the Great Mother mysteries. Who knows. But there still\nare symbolic reasons for Severian's fuligin cloak.\n\nI still don't see anything here about Greek servants or headsmen or \"the\neleven\" but it's clear that lictors were literally \"servants of the law\" or\nof the temple. Presumably it follows that the term would have been used in\na Roman soldier's cult as well. Even for a Leo there were higher grades,\nsuch as Pater, and the slaves, soldiers, and freemen who joined the cult\nwould have understood \"serving\" a god or his priest.\n\nI like \"tauroch/auroch\" and \"autarch.\" Funny that the real autarch victim\nturns out to be associated with bees and honey---he's practically a priest\nhimself---because the two are closely linked in Greek cults. The bee is one\nof Mithras' several symbolic animals and honey was part of Mithraic\ninitiation rites, while the bull was eternally sacrificed and reborn.\nSacrificed bulls became bees.\n\n\"To the ancients, the honey bee was not only a messenger but a direct\nrepresentative of the gods and goddesses of heaven and the airy realms.\n...\n\nPorphyry (AD 233 to c.304) writes: “The ancients gave the name of\nMelissae (bees) to the priestesses of Demeter who were initiates of the\nchthonian goddess; the name Melitodes to Kore herself: the moon (Artemis)\ntoo, whose province it was to bring to the birth, they called Melissa,\nbecause the moon being a bull and its ascension the bull, bees are begotten\nof bulls. And souls that pass to the earth are bull-begotten.”\n\nArchaeologist Marija Gimbutas (1921 - 1994) writes of this passage by\nPorphyry: ?...we learn that Artemis is a bee, Melissa, and that both she\nand the bull belong to the moon. Hence both are connected with the idea of\na periodic regeneration. We also learn that souls are bees and that\nMelissa draws souls down to be born. The idea of a “life in death” in this\nsingularly interesting concept is expressed by the belief that the life of\nthe bull passed into that of the bees. \"\n\nhttps://mirrorofisis.freeyellow.com/id576.html\n\n\nOn 2/17/2018 10:55 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\n\nThe link is : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lictor\n\nThe only link to the Mithras cult I found was in Liddell & Scott's\ndictionary but without any specifics; I didn't find links to Mithras\nelsewhere.\n\n*???????????*, \"bull killing\" even suggests autarch(ktonos).\n\nAccording to Wiki ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tauroctony ) \"The\ntauroctony should not be confused with a \"taurobolium\n\", which was an actual\nbull-killing cult act performed by initiates of the Mysteries of Magna\nMater , and has nothing to do\nwith the Mithraic Mysteries.\n\nThe sacrificial symbolism is clear.\n\nOp 17-2-2018 om 16:28 schreef David Stockhoff:\n\nI don't see \"lictor\" mentioned in the wiki---do you have a specific link\nto that?\n\nNevertheless, the Mithraic cult has always been suggestive of similarities\nto both early Xtianity, which is useful to Wolfe, and to Severian's \"secret\nhistory.\" It's closely allied with a branch of Roman government and with\nRome. A sword figures prominently in its symbology. Severian becomes an\noutcast when he gives Thecla a blade, and he becomes Autarch when he kills\nthe Autarch with a blade. He is often blood-covered, as with the\nsacrificial blood of a bull (sun symbol), but never blood-stained.\n\nCultists proceeded through grades like Masons to become Leos, and lions\nhave always been linked with the sun. The Mithraic leo has been taken as\nAion, who is the Greek god of eternity or \"unbounded time.\" Severian's\ngoing to Yesod and returning as the New Sun literally enacts this elevation\nto Leo.\n\nI had not realized that \"mitra\" could be read as \"covenant.\" That's\nsuggestive too. It's always been a mystery to me that Severian's sword (The\nSword of the Lictor) belongs to a lictor that is never mentioned in the\ntext, but if the lictor is a servant of a secret god with whom a covenant\nis held, then ... it fits.\n\nHidden in plain sight, as usual.\n\nThanks!\n\nOn 2/17/2018 9:10 AM, Ab de Vos wrote:\n\nBy chance I had to look up the Greek word for servant (????????). The\n\"servant of the eleven\" in Athens was the executioner or his servant.\nServant is also the greek translation of Lictor. The lictor is an official\nof the roman state but the term is also used for servitor in the cult cult\nof Mithras.\n\nMithras-Helios, with solar rays and in Iranian dress,[104]\n with\nAntiochus I of Commagene . (\nMt. Nemrut , 1st Century BCE)\n\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<88137814-aa46-6c5a-50b8-f99f11682606@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-18T15:11:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's position in Thrax bears only the slightest suggestive \nresemblance to that of a Roman lictor. There is no \"as such\" here.\n\nWolfe does not mention God or Borges either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/18/2018 12:50 AM, Gerry Leb wrote:\nIn Thrax, based on the letter from The Guild, Severian is appointed \nLictor. As such, he is the chief law enforcement officer of Thrax, \nresponsible for the prison, the barbican, the personal security of the \nArchon, and also, in the final scene of his holding of the office, he \nis detailed to perform the murder of a subject, Cyriaca. He refuses to \nkill her, and flees. In the book, as far as I can recall, there are no \nreferences to Severian in any context that could possibly be connected \nto the earthly faith of Mithraism." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-18T15:40:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "<88137814-aa46-6c5a-50b8-f99f11682606@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the issue with allusions in Wolfe - sometimes the extratextual ones\nare essentially external confirmation of our suspicions, but they are\nusually chosen around a unifying theme. Given the prominence of Sun rebirth\ndeath sacrifice etc etc etc in new sun any conceivable connection to a cult\nof Mithras in incidental details is intentional and reinforcing at best and\naptly coincidental at worst- still worth mentioning. It is when theme does\nnot arrant it tht we travel the slippery slope of, for example, navigator\nas jfk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, February 18, 2018, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\nSeverian's position in Thrax bears only the slightest suggestive\nresemblance to that of a Roman lictor. There is no \"as such\" here.\n\nWolfe does not mention God or Borges either.\n\n\nOn 2/18/2018 12:50 AM, Gerry Leb wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In Thrax, based on the letter from The Guild, Severian is appointed\nLictor. As such, he is the chief law enforcement officer of Thrax,\nresponsible for the prison, the barbican, the personal security of the\nArchon, and also, in the final scene of his holding of the office, he is\ndetailed to perform the murder of a subject, Cyriaca. He refuses to kill\nher, and flees. In the book, as far as I can recall, there are no\nreferences to Severian in any context that could possibly be connected to\nthe earthly faith of Mithraism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-18T15:40:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*warrant it that ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, February 18, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThis is the issue with allusions in Wolfe - sometimes the extratextual\nones are essentially external confirmation of our suspicions, but they are\nusually chosen around a unifying theme. Given the prominence of Sun rebirth\ndeath sacrifice etc etc etc in new sun any conceivable connection to a cult\nof Mithras in incidental details is intentional and reinforcing at best and\naptly coincidental at worst- still worth mentioning. It is when theme does\nnot arrant it tht we travel the slippery slope of, for example, navigator\nas jfk.\n\nOn Sunday, February 18, 2018, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian's position in Thrax bears only the slightest suggestive\nresemblance to that of a Roman lictor. There is no \"as such\" here.\n\nWolfe does not mention God or Borges either.\n\n\nOn 2/18/2018 12:50 AM, Gerry Leb wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "In Thrax, based on the letter from The Guild, Severian is appointed\nLictor. As such, he is the chief law enforcement officer of Thrax,\nresponsible for the prison, the barbican, the personal security of the\nArchon, and also, in the final scene of his holding of the office, he is\ndetailed to perform the murder of a subject, Cyriaca. He refuses to kill\nher, and flees. In the book, as far as I can recall, there are no\nreferences to Severian in any context that could possibly be connected to\nthe earthly faith of Mithraism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6b4cdfe9-5980-d0cb-6b61-740c4b0047ef@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-18T16:14:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lictor", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. I would only add \"or even confirming\" to \"intentional and \nreinforcing.\"\n\nFor example, we already suspected Appian was the Old Autarch, but where \nwe might otherwise be puzzled by his apparently ironic occupation as \nhoney steward and count it as a \"con\" rather than a \"pro,\" the myth that \na sacrificed bull's life passes into bees makes it a clear \"pro\" when we \nconsider the symbolism of bull sacrifice.\n\nBull sacrifice is not mentioned either. It's too obvious. But once it is \ninterpolated, lots of things click, and the Mithraic cult coherently \ncombines all these symbolically structured relationships.\n\nThe larger point is not that Wolfe is a slave to Greek superstitions, \nbut that he never contradicts them. So where Chekhov would never put a \nrifle on the wall without it being fired, Wolfe would never put a honey \nsteward in the House Absolute except as a link to \"the gods\" whose \n\"soul\" moves between sacrificial victims. To do so would wreck Wolfe's \ncarefully constructed symbolic machinery." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/18/2018 10:40 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nThis is the issue with allusions in Wolfe - sometimes the extratextual \nones are essentially external confirmation of our suspicions, but they \nare usually chosen around a unifying theme. Given the prominence of \nSun rebirth death sacrifice etc etc etc in new sun any conceivable \nconnection to a cult of Mithras in incidental details is intentional \nand reinforcing at best and aptly coincidental at worst- still worth \nmentioning. It is when theme does not arrant it tht we travel the \nslippery slope of, for example, navigator as jfk.\n\nOn Sunday, February 18, 2018, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Severian's position in Thrax bears only the slightest suggestive\n resemblance to that of a Roman lictor. There is no \"as such\" here.\n\n Wolfe does not mention God or Borges either.\n\n\n On 2/18/2018 12:50 AM, Gerry Leb wrote:\n\n In Thrax, based on the letter from The Guild, Severian is\n appointed Lictor. As such, he is the chief law enforcement\n officer of Thrax, responsible for the prison, the barbican,\n the personal security of the Archon, and also, in the final\n scene of his holding of the office, he is detailed to perform\n the murder of a subject, Cyriaca. He refuses to kill her, and\n flees. In the book, as far as I can recall, there are no\n references to Severian in any context that could possibly be\n connected to the earthly faith of Mithraism.\n\n\n\n ---\n This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\n https://www.avast.com/antivirus \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8e8e5cba-1b72-f6e4-d028-4e7c8e11b936@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-19T03:51:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been reading bits of Borski, with whom I am not very familiar.\n\nHe proposes that after Palaemon was exiled (at the same age as \nSeverian), rather than returning, he was replaced by a masked Hierodule \nwho watches over Severian.\n\nHe further proposes that there are only two Hierodules, male and female, \nand that these aliens are also Inire and the Cumaean, among others. \nPalaemon himself then became the unnamed Old Leech who travels with Vodalus.\n\nIs this theory widely accepted ?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-19T05:00:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<8e8e5cba-1b72-f6e4-d028-4e7c8e11b936@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I come across as a tyrant all the time. I am trying to change my public\nimage, and you have to go and ask about some specific Borski theory...\n\nWhether it is widely accepted or not (i’d say no) ... it has very little\ntextual evidence and I choose not to believe it. But you can believe\nwhatever you want.\n\nBorski’s validity is in linking apes to inire, but I think he goes way too\nfar in collapsing very different characters into each other and often uses\ncircular arguments (Agia is related to Severian because of the golden light\nthat touches her hair and the golden light touches her hair because she is\nrelated to Severian, as one possibly spurious example I may have made up-\nbut he does stuff like that.)\n\nGrains of salt like solar systems ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, February 18, 2018, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\nI've been reading bits of Borski, with whom I am not very familiar.\n\nHe proposes that after Palaemon was exiled (at the same age as Severian),\nrather than returning, he was replaced by a masked Hierodule who watches\nover Severian.\n\nHe further proposes that there are only two Hierodules, male and female,\nand that these aliens are also Inire and the Cumaean, among others.\nPalaemon himself then became the unnamed Old Leech who travels with Vodalus.\n\nIs this theory widely accepted ?\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-19T05:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When onomastics and onanism become synonymous ... at the point when he\nderived an allusive mythical name from another allusive mythical name using\nonomastics my blood pressure probably spiked to 200/130" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, February 18, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI come across as a tyrant all the time. I am trying to change my public\nimage, and you have to go and ask about some specific Borski theory...\n\nWhether it is widely accepted or not (i’d say no) ... it has very little\ntextual evidence and I choose not to believe it. But you can believe\nwhatever you want.\n\nBorski’s validity is in linking apes to inire, but I think he goes way too\nfar in collapsing very different characters into each other and often uses\ncircular arguments (Agia is related to Severian because of the golden light\nthat touches her hair and the golden light touches her hair because she is\nrelated to Severian, as one possibly spurious example I may have made up-\nbut he does stuff like that.)\n\nGrains of salt like solar systems ...\n\nOn Sunday, February 18, 2018, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've been reading bits of Borski, with whom I am not very familiar.\n\nHe proposes that after Palaemon was exiled (at the same age as Severian),\nrather than returning, he was replaced by a masked Hierodule who watches\nover Severian.\n\nHe further proposes that there are only two Hierodules, male and female,\nand that these aliens are also Inire and the Cumaean, among others.\nPalaemon himself then became the unnamed Old Leech who travels with Vodalus.\n\nIs this theory widely accepted ?\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-19T14:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had to look up where it was. It was chapter 10 of long and short of it.\n\n“Other figures named after Faustian characters include: (sic) Dr. Margotte\nand Megan Cartensen (both derive from Margaret, as does Goethe’s Margarete)\nwhile Ellen and Little Nell recall Helen of Troy, and President Sanderson\nis Alexander the Great”\n\nIn a book about Dickens characters, you just can’t in good conscience\nderive Nell from Helen of Troy in that particular fashion.\n\nAt the end of that essay, borski noticed that the doctor is associated with\ndeath and then sees his arrival at the end of the doctor of death island as\na sign of hope ... it’s like he notices valid things but can’t sustain\nlogic in his conclusions from them.\n\nReading wolfe analysis has led me to the conclusion that confirmation bias\nand forced logic are the biggest problems. reader response should never\nchallenge self evident truths: Little Nell refers to the character of\nDickens? Little Nell. Any association with Helen of Troy (Nell is\nexplicitly presexualized, Helen a specialized object of infamy) would have\nto be found in the original Dickens? novel, and it simply isn’t." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sunday, February 18, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWhen onomastics and onanism become synonymous ... at the point when he\nderived an allusive mythical name from another allusive mythical name using\nonomastics my blood pressure probably spiked to 200/130\n\nOn Sunday, February 18, 2018, Marc Aramini wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I come across as a tyrant all the time. I am trying to change my public\nimage, and you have to go and ask about some specific Borski theory...\n\nWhether it is widely accepted or not (i’d say no) ... it has very little\ntextual evidence and I choose not to believe it. But you can believe\nwhatever you want.\n\nBorski’s validity is in linking apes to inire, but I think he goes way\ntoo far in collapsing very different characters into each other and often\nuses circular arguments (Agia is related to Severian because of the golden\nlight that touches her hair and the golden light touches her hair because\nshe is related to Severian, as one possibly spurious example I may have\nmade up- but he does stuff like that.)\n\nGrains of salt like solar systems ...\n\nOn Sunday, February 18, 2018, David Stockhoff \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I've been reading bits of Borski, with whom I am not very familiar.\n\nHe proposes that after Palaemon was exiled (at the same age as\nSeverian), rather than returning, he was replaced by a masked Hierodule who\nwatches over Severian.\n\nHe further proposes that there are only two Hierodules, male and female,\nand that these aliens are also Inire and the Cumaean, among others.\nPalaemon himself then became the unnamed Old Leech who travels with Vodalus.\n\nIs this theory widely accepted ?\n\n---\nThis email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.\nhttps://www.avast.com/antivirus\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-19T14:42:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*helen a sexualized object" } ] }, { "message_id": "<35225d37-97bb-b6be-2327-0299c6042a8b@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2018-02-19T15:31:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I recall the discussions of onomastics. I apologize for digging all \nthis up but it seems some questions that Borski partly answered are \notherwise completely unanswered. My questions below are for anybody....\n\nI think his identification of saints versus mythical names in BOTNS is \nsound and should be used to suggest possibilities. What I'm interested \nin is the logical support for those possibilities. Much of what Borski \nconcludes is logical, but much of it approaches paranoia.\n\n(1) I know of no other theory to explain or \"fill in\" Inire. However, \ncollapsing everyone into Ossipago and Famulimus seems excessive.\n\nIf you take the reverse-time travel implications (Apheta as mother of \nOssipago and Famulimus) to their logical conclusions, Inire is a being \nsimilar to the Heirodules yet fundamentally different from them. As \nInire, he is aged and apelike, but if he is Ceryx, he is young. So that \nfits. The time loop then encompasses almost everything, including Inire. \n(As it should, because Severian's time-loop is not very different from \nthe delusional worlds built by other Wolfe characters.)\n\nQuestion #1: Where then does Inire come from, if he is from the future? \nIf he is Ceryx, we know how he dies.\n\nQuestion #2: Where do Ossipago and Famulimus end up? If they are \nSeverian's twin-partners, we know how they were born.\n\n(2) The Old Leech should be somebody.\n\nQuestion #3: Who is he if not the exiled Palaemon? It's hard to imagine \nPalaemon giving Severian Terminus Est if he didn't at least know who \nSeverian was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 2/19/2018 12:04 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nWhen onomastics and onanism become synonymous ? ... at the point when \nhe derived an allusive mythical name from another allusive mythical \nname using onomastics my blood pressure probably spiked to 200/130" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-19T15:45:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "<35225d37-97bb-b6be-2327-0299c6042a8b@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think having Ossipago and Famulimus being born of Apheta is implied\nby the text - there is a whole scene in Urth on the ship that implies they\nwere \"raised\" from an aquatic biosphere, though it was in the future.\n\nI've never bought that Inire was Ceryx. I don't think Ossipago and\nFamulimus are Severian's twin partners - men evolve into the heiros, who\nmove on and leave behind the hierogammates, who raise up the hierodules -\nthats a lot of speciation between the human Severian and the hierodules.\nThey live in time but travel backwards by jumps - I think Borski gets this\nwrong - it isn't a true Merlin situation where time works on any of these\ncreatures in reverse. If they travel backwards, they will be older in the\npast, aging as they make jumps. There is plenty of indication that many\npowers are aware of what Severian might be, and perhaps Palaemon is in\ncontact with them. I accept almost none of Borski's premises, so my input\nisn't very useful here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 8:31 AM, David Stockhoff \nwrote:\nYes, I recall the discussions of onomastics. I apologize for digging all\nthis up but it seems some questions that Borski partly answered are\notherwise completely unanswered. My questions below are for anybody....\n\nI think his identification of saints versus mythical names in BOTNS is\nsound and should be used to suggest possibilities. What I'm interested in\nis the logical support for those possibilities. Much of what Borski\nconcludes is logical, but much of it approaches paranoia.\n\n(1) I know of no other theory to explain or \"fill in\" Inire. However,\ncollapsing everyone into Ossipago and Famulimus seems excessive.\n\n\nQuestion #1: Where then does Inire come from, if he is from the future? If\nhe is Ceryx, we know how he dies.\n\nQuestion #2: Where do Ossipago and Famulimus end up? If they are\nSeverian's twin-partners, we know how they were born.\n\n(2) The Old Leech should be somebody.\n\nQuestion #3: Who is he if not the exiled Palaemon? It's hard to imagine\nPalaemon giving Severian Terminus Est if he didn't at least know who\nSeverian was." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4FFFF049-616A-4A98-944E-4ED763E65C32@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-02-19T19:29:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palaemon as Hierodule", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 19/02/2018, ?s 15:45, Marc Aramini escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They live in time but travel backwards by jumps" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Otherwise they’d speak English in reverse. Of course, they could compensate for it..." } ] } ] }