{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/6780", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 6780, "subject": "Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "messages": 9, "voices": 4, "first": "2018-03-06T22:46:05+00:00", "last": "2018-03-08T21:47:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<9cec3317-ddf7-471f-3157-e17e77fdd8da@casema.nl>", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-03-06T22:46:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science fiction writer.\n\nIn his \"The History of Science Fiction\" he devotes a short chapter to \nWolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) main thesis \nthroughout the book: \"Wolfe not only revisits many of the conventions of \n20th-century SF, he goes further back than that, tapping into the deep \nroots of the genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of \nsalvation are inflected by our much broader materialist understanding of \nthe cosmos.\"(page 439)\n\nAfter treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: \n\"Seventeenth century SF\". Central is the dialectic between matter, \nspirit and technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe contains, \nI believe, some errors. He says for instance:\"Horn may or may not, \nmutate? into a new form of life across the course of the trilogy. \"(page \n438) Anybody ring a bell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to \ngive him up because then he Horn would be dead as they were sharing the \nsame body." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-03-06T23:41:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "<9cec3317-ddf7-471f-3157-e17e77fdd8da@casema.nl>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, please)\nbut here is my take on what he may or may not be talking about: some time\nafter Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a Vanished Person who also calls\nhimself Horn appears to speak to our narrator. That's the only new\nspeciation that might have anything to do with Horn - the rest Roberts\nrefers to are the false clues Wolfe is giving us that Silkhorn might be\ninhumi: (light, doesn't have a good appetite - is he truly a normal man\nwith his ability to walk through the woods without being touched? (yes, he\nhas made a deal with the vanished gods, who are trees)\n\nHaving said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who has just\nfaced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either psychologically\nretreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, is a true amalgam of Horn\nand Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters in as the Rajan of Gaon. When he\nsits under the tree at the end of On Blue's Waters the majority of Horn's\nspirit goes into Babbie and becomes the beast with three horns, then it is\nSilk in denial for the rest of the book, Silk a man as he always was, until\nfinally he is faced with the truth with the passage invoking the death of\nHyacinth in the writings and has come home to a house that is not his.\n\nBut hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest in arguing\nthis one at all. Just trying to address what he might be talking about." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos wrote:\nAdam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science fiction writer.\n\nIn his \"The History of Science Fiction\" he devotes a short chapter to\nWolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) main thesis\nthroughout the book: \"Wolfe not only revisits many of the conventions of\n20th-century SF, he goes further back than that, tapping into the deep\nroots of the genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of\nsalvation are inflected by our much broader materialist understanding of\nthe cosmos.\"(page 439)\n\nAfter treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: \"Seventeenth\ncentury SF\". Central is the dialectic between matter, spirit and\ntechnology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe contains, I believe,\nsome errors. He says for instance:\"Horn may or may not, mutate into a new\nform of life across the course of the trilogy. \"(page 438) Anybody ring a\nbell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give him up because then\nhe Horn would be dead as they were sharing the same body.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ab de Vos", "address": "foxyab at casema.nl" }, "date": "2018-03-07T00:19:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks anyway. It has been some time I read the books and much of them \nalas went over my head.\n\nWhen are your books coming out?\n\n\nOp 7-3-2018 om 00:41 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, \nplease) but here is my take on what he may or may not be talking \nabout: some time after Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a Vanished \nPerson who also calls himself Horn appears to speak to our narrator. \nThat's the only new speciation that might have anything to do with \nHorn - the rest Roberts refers to are the false clues Wolfe is giving \nus that Silkhorn might be inhumi: (light, doesn't have a good appetite \n- is he truly a normal man with his ability to walk through the woods \nwithout being touched? (yes, he has made a deal with the vanished \ngods, who are trees)\n\nHaving said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who has \njust faced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either \npsychologically retreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, is a \ntrue amalgam of Horn and Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters in as the \nRajan of Gaon. When he sits under the tree at the end of On Blue's \nWaters the majority of Horn's spirit goes into Babbie and becomes the \nbeast with three horns, then it is Silk in denial for the rest of the \nbook, Silk a man as he always was, until finally he is faced with the \ntruth with the passage invoking the death of Hyacinth in the writings \nand has come home to a house that is not his.\n\nBut hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest in \narguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might be \ntalking about.\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos > wrote:\n\n Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science\n fiction writer.\n\n In his \"The History of Science Fiction\" he devotes a short chapter\n to Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts)\n main thesis throughout the book: \"Wolfe not only revisits many of\n the conventions of 20th-century SF, he goes further back than\n that, tapping into the deep roots of the genre, interrogating the\n many ways in which notions of salvation are inflected by our much\n broader materialist understanding of the cosmos.\"(page 439)\n\n After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4:\n \"Seventeenth century SF\". Central is the dialectic between matter,\n spirit and technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe\n contains, I believe, some errors. He says for instance:\"Horn may\n or may not, mutate? into a new form of life across the course of\n the trilogy. \"(page 438) Anybody ring a bell. I thought Silk was\n Horn but didn't want to give him up because then he Horn would be\n dead as they were sharing the same body.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-03-07T16:14:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think my editor will have time to get volume 2 ready to go in May, but I\nam not sure. I haven't pressed because my pace on these last six essays has\nbeen glacial. You would think I would have the energy to just finish it ..\nbut geez there's always something. I predict the weakest essay will be on\nAn Evil Guest. I have adopted a more pedantic approach to these final\nlonger essays. Sometimes pedantry is a gift." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Ab de Vos wrote:\nThanks anyway. It has been some time I read the books and much of them\nalas went over my head.\n\nWhen are your books coming out?\n\nOp 7-3-2018 om 00:41 schreef Marc Aramini:\n\nI don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, please)\nbut here is my take on what he may or may not be talking about: some time\nafter Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a Vanished Person who also calls\nhimself Horn appears to speak to our narrator. That's the only new\nspeciation that might have anything to do with Horn - the rest Roberts\nrefers to are the false clues Wolfe is giving us that Silkhorn might be\ninhumi: (light, doesn't have a good appetite - is he truly a normal man\nwith his ability to walk through the woods without being touched? (yes, he\nhas made a deal with the vanished gods, who are trees)\n\nHaving said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who has just\nfaced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either psychologically\nretreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, is a true amalgam of Horn\nand Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters in as the Rajan of Gaon. When he\nsits under the tree at the end of On Blue's Waters the majority of Horn's\nspirit goes into Babbie and becomes the beast with three horns, then it is\nSilk in denial for the rest of the book, Silk a man as he always was, until\nfinally he is faced with the truth with the passage invoking the death of\nHyacinth in the writings and has come home to a house that is not his.\n\nBut hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest in\narguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might be talking\nabout.\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science fiction\nwriter.\n\nIn his \"The History of Science Fiction\" he devotes a short chapter to\nWolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) main thesis\nthroughout the book: \"Wolfe not only revisits many of the conventions of\n20th-century SF, he goes further back than that, tapping into the deep\nroots of the genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of\nsalvation are inflected by our much broader materialist understanding of\nthe cosmos.\"(page 439)\n\nAfter treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4:\n\"Seventeenth century SF\". Central is the dialectic between matter, spirit\nand technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe contains, I believe,\nsome errors. He says for instance:\"Horn may or may not, mutate into a new\nform of life across the course of the trilogy. \"(page 438) Anybody ring a\nbell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give him up because then\nhe Horn would be dead as they were sharing the same body.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<811d4585-c944-c348-5de0-ca02d2c7b267@hwaet.com>", "from": { "name": "Eric Bourland", "address": "eb at hwaet.com" }, "date": "2018-03-07T16:20:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth, An Evil Guest is one of my favorite of his books. \nFor a few years maybe it was my favorite. I've got a whole disquisition \nabout it, which inevitably prompts vigorous eye-rolling, so I'll spare \nyou. ;-) Looking forward to vol. 2. Eric" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/7/2018 11:14 AM, Marc Aramini wrote:\nI think my editor will have time to get volume 2 ready to go in May, \nbut I am not sure. I haven't pressed because my pace on these last six \nessays has been glacial. You would think I would have the energy to \njust finish it .. but geez there's always something. I predict the \nweakest essay will be on An Evil Guest. I have adopted a more pedantic \napproach to these final longer essays. Sometimes pedantry is a gift.\n\nOn Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Ab de Vos > wrote:\n\n Thanks anyway. It has been some time I read the books and much of\n them alas went over my head.\n\n When are your books coming out?\n\n\n Op 7-3-2018 om 00:41 schreef Marc Aramini:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please,\n please) but here is my take on what he may or may not be talking\n about: some time after Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a\n Vanished Person who also calls himself Horn appears to speak to\n our narrator. That's the only new speciation that might have\n anything to do with Horn - the rest Roberts refers to are the\n false clues Wolfe is giving us that Silkhorn might be inhumi:\n (light, doesn't have a good appetite - is he truly a normal man\n with his ability to walk through the woods without being touched?\n (yes, he has made a deal with the vanished gods, who are trees)\n\n Having said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who\n has just faced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either\n psychologically retreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself,\n is a true amalgam of Horn and Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters\n in as the Rajan of Gaon. When he sits under the tree at the end\n of On Blue's Waters the majority of Horn's spirit goes into\n Babbie and becomes the beast with three horns, then it is Silk in\n denial for the rest of the book, Silk a man as he always was,\n until finally he is faced with the truth with the passage\n invoking the death of Hyacinth in the writings and has come home\n to a house that is not his.\n\n But hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest\n in arguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might\n be talking about.\n\n On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos > wrote:\n\n Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science\n fiction writer.\n\n In his \"The History of Science Fiction\" he devotes a short\n chapter to Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his\n (Roberts) main thesis throughout the book: \"Wolfe not only\n revisits many of the conventions of 20th-century SF, he goes\n further back than that, tapping into the deep roots of the\n genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of\n salvation are inflected by our much broader materialist\n understanding of the cosmos.\"(page 439)\n\n After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4:\n \"Seventeenth century SF\". Central is the dialectic between\n matter, spirit and technology. Very interesting. His chapter\n on Wolfe contains, I believe, some errors. He says for\n instance:\"Horn may or may not, mutate? into a new form of\n life across the course of the trilogy. \"(page 438) Anybody\n ring a bell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give\n him up because then he Horn would be dead as they were\n sharing the same body.\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Marc Aramini", "address": "marcaramini at gmail.com" }, "date": "2018-03-07T16:37:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "<811d4585-c944-c348-5de0-ca02d2c7b267@hwaet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Eric, I wouldn't mind hearing it if you wouldn't mind being quoted by name,\nunless you didn't want it repeated. In which case I still wouldn't mind\nhearing it. Robert Pirkola wrote a very large draft of exegesis on it - I\nstill haven't made up my mind on what to write about that one. I know that\nThere Are Doors and The Ziggurat eventually revealed a pattern that pierced\nthe unreliable third person which I feel is the least justified of Wolfe's\ntechniques because it lacks a clear narrative reason save for hovering near\nits main characters flawed perceptions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001101d3b67a$7130b840$539228c0$@bellsouth.net>", "from": { "name": "Paul Rydeen", "address": "rydeen at bellsouth.net" }, "date": "2018-03-08T01:11:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, let’s hear it! AEG is one of my favorites, too.\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Marc Aramini\nSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:37 AM" } ] }, { "message_id": "<88b01746-8218-5b15-4a3b-3a9f3a5b4b89@hwaet.com>", "from": { "name": "Eric Bourland", "address": "eb at hwaet.com" }, "date": "2018-03-08T03:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "<001101d3b67a$7130b840$539228c0$@bellsouth.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An Evil Guest. Um, I'll try. This is a bumbling recounting from memory, \nof a book I have read several times but not in a few years. Maybe I'll \nmake a list.\n\n* It's well-crafted. There's a lot going on, but GW gives us just enough \nto make sense of all the working parts. I can tell that he put in a lot \nof work to make this one make sense. I think I can see him choosing what \ninformation to include, and where to leave the clues. He always does \nthat of course, but in this story I can see him doing so with a sort of \ncheerful merriment.\n\nAnd while I'm at it I'll add in a werewolf. Hee! And it will eat the guy.\n\n* Maybe I like this story because I can tell that GW had a lot of fun \nwriting it. His joy is infectious. The reader always knows when you're \nhaving a good time, and when you're struggling, or if you're bored or \nstuck. When I read this book I get a dumb grin on my face.\n\n* Cassie. I just like her. Not in a I-have-a-crush kind of way. I \nrespect how she managed herself in every jackpot she got thrown into. \nMore about Cassie in a minute, because the eye-rolling usually starts \nwhen I start running my yap about how cool Cassie is. Hang on.\n\n* Gideon Chase. I like him. \"The tiger has told them they are tiger \nfood, you see.\" (While eating sour cabbage.)\n\nChase is Wolfe . . . it took me a while to understand this. I think \nafter I did understand, Chase made more sense to me. He's slightly \nsinister and we never really know about him. But also a magic man, and \nomnicompetent, but with those gifts comes uncertainty of intent.\n\nChase is yet another GW character that gets a leg injury. So many GW \ncharacters have injured legs. Silk - Severian - Chase - probably a bunch \nmore I am not thinking of.\n\nCrippled character usually = GW. It's a signal.\n\nThere's a better way to say that. Like any writer, GW puts some of his \nown ideals into characters he cares about. And he sends a characteristic \nsignal to inform the thoughtful reader, hey, if you're interested, \nthere's a lot of me in this fellow. I'm telling you by means of the \ncrippled leg.\n\nWhen Maugham wrote Of Human Bondage -- lovely, moving, wise book and I \nrecommend it -- he gave his main character Philip a club foot. Some \nbackstory: Maugham had a stutter. He wanted to identify Philip with \nhimself, but he thought it might be hamhanded to just give Philip a \nstutter. So Philip got a club foot, as the kind of socially devastating \ndiscomfort and block that a stutter can be. A stutter really interferes \nwith you, making even brief and simple, everyday interactions into \nevents of hideous awkwardness, which in turn can lead to a lot of \nisolation. I would imagine that having an untreated club foot might \nmean, for some, a lot of isolation too.\n\n* But Maugham, and Wolfe too, are modest about such signals. You don't \nhave to admit the author into your reading at all. The story still works.\n\nAnd this is neither here nor there. I just thought it was well-done.\n\n* I'm not up on the onomastics of Gideon. Bible something something. \nChase is a wealthy name I associate with money but also, I suppose, with \nthe hunt, the pursuit of game.\n\n* There's another wolf in the book that eats Scott Z, as retribution for \nScott's being a horse's heinie. I can see GW writing that and smiling \nwith satisfaction. It was not mean or especially gory. It happens \noffstage. It was a heartwarming, dignified assassination. Scott Z is \ngonna get the business, and it's gonna be a wolf that does the job . . . \nso I imagine Wolfe thinking.\n\n* He did Harold Klauser just right, in only a few pages. I regard this \nas just good writing, essential GW. Klauser has a lot of important \ninformation to tell Cassie, and us too. He does so in a way that makes \nme like him right away. He eats those little anchovy things, I forget \nwhat they are. Anchovy toast. There's a lot of gustatory content in this \nbook. Fine restaurants and lots of good food. That's something that \nstruck me right away. I thought: These characters know how to eat. A \nlittle detail that just . . . worked.\n\n* He did Madame Pavlatos just right. There's just enough.\n\n* The Storm God assassin was perfect and reminded me of an Ascian a \nlittle. Just how convinced she was. How certain.\n\n* The various police were sufficiently goonlike yet likable for the most \npart.\n\n* There are a bunch of little details in this book that just worked. A \nlesser writer would have bungled these.\n\nCassie:\n\nWolfe adores Cassie, just as Gideon Chase adores Cassie. And I think he \nrespects her. Both fellows respect her.\n\n\"Like eat?\"\n\n\"Much too much,\" Cassie told her darkly.\n\nThat statement arrived at just the right time, later in the story. Given \nearlier, it's gratuitous. GW gives Cassie some time to earn this \nslightly funny and self-deprecating phrase. Just one way that he helped \nher be who she is, I think.\n\nMy wife, whose judgment I trust, says the book is sexist in places, and \nCassie is sometimes deprecated by the author. She gave examples, some of \nwhich I was blind to as I read.\n\nI reply with the usual arguments: she spears fish! Stands up to goons! \nCoped with the Storm God assassin! Takes a lot of initiative throughout \nthe entire book! She's got a lot of pure bravery. And she really has a \nheart of gold.\n\nMy wife says: her chief ambition is merely to be a star in a show. She \nis otherwise shallow and relatively powerless. The author does not \nrespect Cassie, or women. Not really. The author can write about women \nbut there is a subtle, deep chauvinism there. Would the author treat a \nmale character in such a way?\n\n(I am paraphrasing, with customary clumsiness, the cogent thoughts of my \nwife, who has been a careful reader of thousands of books, including a \nfew Wolfe books I have shared with her. When we discussed Cassie, she \ngave convincing examples, which I'm not relating here in any way nearly \nas convincing as her own words. I respect my wife as a reader. She is a \nwonderful wife, too. =) No, she does not read this Urth list, except for \nvery rare occasions when I point out something to her.)\n\nChauvinism in Wolfe is a difficult topic. And it's very much beyond the \nscope of this hastily banged-out little posting to Urth. Wolfe sometimes \nidentifies women by hair color -- Mdm. Pavlatos is a rake-thin brunette, \nfor example. Yeah, that's chauvinistic. It establishes women as \nornamental. I do have a problem with that. I'm glad to discuss it.\n\nBut I found Cassie very, very likable, esp at the end, when I think she \nshowed her merit. Her heart was broken, but she acted with resolve and \ndecency.\n\nShe loved her king (Reis, whose name is king, and whose meaning in the \nstory is king) with a love much more profound than her love for Chase. \nYet she flies to meet Chase in the end, on Woldercan. I think she \nexpended her beauty in order to obtain a craft that will convey her to \nChase . . . and out of the story. She fought her way out, with great \nsacrifice and peril, but fair and square.\n\nI like to think about the things that Cassie wished for; what she \nactually got; what she got free of or escaped from; and what she was \ntraveling to meet in the end.\n\nIt's chauvinistic! says my lovely wife whom I adore.\n\nWotta dame! I reply.\n\nOther notes:\n\nWilliam Reis is the name of a character in another Wolfe story, I forget \nwhich one.\n\nGW gave the lovecraft stuff just enough time. Exactly enough. Anything \nless or more would have been ineffective. Few other writers today can do \nthis. To have that degree of trust.\n\nThere was a point in his career when Wolfe visibly allowed himself to \nrelax and have a lot of fun. One result of that was An Evil Guest.\n\nThis is only my two sleep-deprived cents. I am sure I am missing much \nmore than a lot. I need to go back and read Marc's writeup. I might read \nthe book again. Silk for cald?!\n\nEric" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 3/7/2018 8:11 PM, Paul Rydeen wrote:\n\nYes, let’s hear it!? AEG is one of my favorites, too.\n\n\n*From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Marc \nAramini\n*Sent:* Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:37 AM" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000001d3b727$0bba1b70$232e5250$@bellsouth.net>", "from": { "name": "Paul Rydeen", "address": "rydeen at bellsouth.net" }, "date": "2018-03-08T21:47:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction", "in_reply_to": "<88b01746-8218-5b15-4a3b-3a9f3a5b4b89@hwaet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for sharing. This is one I’ll read again at some point.\n\n \n\nI like how Wolfe handled Cassie’s behavior changing after she makes her deal, and how Margaret just drops out of the plot.\n\n \n\nAnd how the ending leaves the reader having to figure out just a little bit, even if they’ll never dig into all the deeper stuff that Marc is so good at ferreting out.\n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\n \n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Eric Bourland\nSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 9:34 PM\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction\n\n \n\nAn Evil Guest. Um, I'll try. This is a bumbling recounting from memory, of a book I have read several times but not in a few years. Maybe I'll make a list.\n\n* It's well-crafted. There's a lot going on, but GW gives us just enough to make sense of all the working parts. I can tell that he put in a lot of work to make this one make sense. I think I can see him choosing what information to include, and where to leave the clues. He always does that of course, but in this story I can see him doing so with a sort of cheerful merriment.\n\nAnd while I'm at it I'll add in a werewolf. Hee! And it will eat the guy.\n\n* Maybe I like this story because I can tell that GW had a lot of fun writing it. His joy is infectious. The reader always knows when you're having a good time, and when you're struggling, or if you're bored or stuck. When I read this book I get a dumb grin on my face.\n\n* Cassie. I just like her. Not in a I-have-a-crush kind of way. I respect how she managed herself in every jackpot she got thrown into. More about Cassie in a minute, because the eye-rolling usually starts when I start running my yap about how cool Cassie is. Hang on.\n\n* Gideon Chase. I like him. \"The tiger has told them they are tiger food, you see.\" (While eating sour cabbage.)\n\nChase is Wolfe . . . it took me a while to understand this. I think after I did understand, Chase made more sense to me. He's slightly sinister and we never really know about him. But also a magic man, and omnicompetent, but with those gifts comes uncertainty of intent.\n\nChase is yet another GW character that gets a leg injury. So many GW characters have injured legs. Silk - Severian - Chase - probably a bunch more I am not thinking of.\n\nCrippled character usually = GW. It's a signal.\n\nThere's a better way to say that. Like any writer, GW puts some of his own ideals into characters he cares about. And he sends a characteristic signal to inform the thoughtful reader, hey, if you're interested, there's a lot of me in this fellow. I'm telling you by means of the crippled leg.\n\nWhen Maugham wrote Of Human Bondage -- lovely, moving, wise book and I recommend it -- he gave his main character Philip a club foot. Some backstory: Maugham had a stutter. He wanted to identify Philip with himself, but he thought it might be hamhanded to just give Philip a stutter. So Philip got a club foot, as the kind of socially devastating discomfort and block that a stutter can be. A stutter really interferes with you, making even brief and simple, everyday interactions into events of hideous awkwardness, which in turn can lead to a lot of isolation. I would imagine that having an untreated club foot might mean, for some, a lot of isolation too. \n\n* But Maugham, and Wolfe too, are modest about such signals. You don't have to admit the author into your reading at all. The story still works.\n\nAnd this is neither here nor there. I just thought it was well-done.\n\n* I'm not up on the onomastics of Gideon. Bible something something. Chase is a wealthy name I associate with money but also, I suppose, with the hunt, the pursuit of game.\n\n* There's another wolf in the book that eats Scott Z, as retribution for Scott's being a horse's heinie. I can see GW writing that and smiling with satisfaction. It was not mean or especially gory. It happens offstage. It was a heartwarming, dignified assassination. Scott Z is gonna get the business, and it's gonna be a wolf that does the job . . . so I imagine Wolfe thinking.\n\n* He did Harold Klauser just right, in only a few pages. I regard this as just good writing, essential GW. Klauser has a lot of important information to tell Cassie, and us too. He does so in a way that makes me like him right away. He eats those little anchovy things, I forget what they are. Anchovy toast. There's a lot of gustatory content in this book. Fine restaurants and lots of good food. That's something that struck me right away. I thought: These characters know how to eat. A little detail that just . . . worked.\n\n* He did Madame Pavlatos just right. There's just enough.\n\n* The Storm God assassin was perfect and reminded me of an Ascian a little. Just how convinced she was. How certain.\n\n* The various police were sufficiently goonlike yet likable for the most part.\n\n* There are a bunch of little details in this book that just worked. A lesser writer would have bungled these.\n\nCassie:\n\nWolfe adores Cassie, just as Gideon Chase adores Cassie. And I think he respects her. Both fellows respect her.\n\n\"Like eat?\"\n\n\"Much too much,\" Cassie told her darkly.\n\nThat statement arrived at just the right time, later in the story. Given earlier, it's gratuitous. GW gives Cassie some time to earn this slightly funny and self-deprecating phrase. Just one way that he helped her be who she is, I think.\n\nMy wife, whose judgment I trust, says the book is sexist in places, and Cassie is sometimes deprecated by the author. She gave examples, some of which I was blind to as I read.\n\nI reply with the usual arguments: she spears fish! Stands up to goons! Coped with the Storm God assassin! Takes a lot of initiative throughout the entire book! She's got a lot of pure bravery. And she really has a heart of gold.\n\nMy wife says: her chief ambition is merely to be a star in a show. She is otherwise shallow and relatively powerless. The author does not respect Cassie, or women. Not really. The author can write about women but there is a subtle, deep chauvinism there. Would the author treat a male character in such a way?\n\n(I am paraphrasing, with customary clumsiness, the cogent thoughts of my wife, who has been a careful reader of thousands of books, including a few Wolfe books I have shared with her. When we discussed Cassie, she gave convincing examples, which I'm not relating here in any way nearly as convincing as her own words. I respect my wife as a reader. She is a wonderful wife, too. =) No, she does not read this Urth list, except for very rare occasions when I point out something to her.)\n\nChauvinism in Wolfe is a difficult topic. And it's very much beyond the scope of this hastily banged-out little posting to Urth. Wolfe sometimes identifies women by hair color -- Mdm. Pavlatos is a rake-thin brunette, for example. Yeah, that's chauvinistic. It establishes women as ornamental. I do have a problem with that. I'm glad to discuss it.\n\nBut I found Cassie very, very likable, esp at the end, when I think she showed her merit. Her heart was broken, but she acted with resolve and decency.\n\nShe loved her king (Reis, whose name is king, and whose meaning in the story is king) with a love much more profound than her love for Chase. Yet she flies to meet Chase in the end, on Woldercan. I think she expended her beauty in order to obtain a craft that will convey her to Chase . . . and out of the story. She fought her way out, with great sacrifice and peril, but fair and square.\n\nI like to think about the things that Cassie wished for; what she actually got; what she got free of or escaped from; and what she was traveling to meet in the end.\n\nIt's chauvinistic! says my lovely wife whom I adore.\n\nWotta dame! I reply.\n\nOther notes:\n\nWilliam Reis is the name of a character in another Wolfe story, I forget which one.\n\nGW gave the lovecraft stuff just enough time. Exactly enough. Anything less or more would have been ineffective. Few other writers today can do this. To have that degree of trust.\n\nThere was a point in his career when Wolfe visibly allowed himself to relax and have a lot of fun. One result of that was An Evil Guest.\n\nThis is only my two sleep-deprived cents. I am sure I am missing much more than a lot. I need to go back and read Marc's writeup. I might read the book again. Silk for cald?!\n\nEric\n\n \n\n \n\nOn 3/7/2018 8:11 PM, Paul Rydeen wrote:\n\nYes, let’s hear it! AEG is one of my favorites, too.\n\n \n\n \n\n\n\nFrom: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Marc Aramini\nSent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:37 AM" } ] } ] }