# Palgrave History of Science Fiction *The Urth list — 9 messages, 4 voices, 06 Mar 2018* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Ab de Vos *06 Mar 2018, 22:46* Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science fiction writer. In his "The History of Science Fiction" he devotes a short chapter to Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) main thesis throughout the book: "Wolfe not only revisits many of the conventions of 20th-century SF, he goes further back than that, tapping into the deep roots of the genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of salvation are inflected by our much broader materialist understanding of the cosmos."(page 439) After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: "Seventeenth century SF". Central is the dialectic between matter, spirit and technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe contains, I believe, some errors. He says for instance:"Horn may or may not, mutate? into a new form of life across the course of the trilogy. "(page 438) Anybody ring a bell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give him up because then he Horn would be dead as they were sharing the same body. --- ### Marc Aramini *06 Mar 2018, 23:41 · in reply to Ab de Vos* I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, please) but here is my take on what he may or may not be talking about: some time after Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a Vanished Person who also calls himself Horn appears to speak to our narrator. That's the only new speciation that might have anything to do with Horn - the rest Roberts refers to are the false clues Wolfe is giving us that Silkhorn might be inhumi: (light, doesn't have a good appetite - is he truly a normal man with his ability to walk through the woods without being touched? (yes, he has made a deal with the vanished gods, who are trees) Having said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who has just faced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either psychologically retreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, is a true amalgam of Horn and Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters in as the Rajan of Gaon. When he sits under the tree at the end of On Blue's Waters the majority of Horn's spirit goes into Babbie and becomes the beast with three horns, then it is Silk in denial for the rest of the book, Silk a man as he always was, until finally he is faced with the truth with the passage invoking the death of Hyacinth in the writings and has come home to a house that is not his. But hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest in arguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might be talking about. > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos wrote: > Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science fiction writer. > > In his "The History of Science Fiction" he devotes a short chapter to > Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) main thesis > throughout the book: "Wolfe not only revisits many of the conventions of > 20th-century SF, he goes further back than that, tapping into the deep > roots of the genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of > salvation are inflected by our much broader materialist understanding of > the cosmos."(page 439) > > After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: "Seventeenth > century SF". Central is the dialectic between matter, spirit and > technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe contains, I believe, > some errors. He says for instance:"Horn may or may not, mutate into a new > form of life across the course of the trilogy. "(page 438) Anybody ring a > bell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give him up because then > he Horn would be dead as they were sharing the same body. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Ab de Vos *07 Mar 2018, 00:19 · in reply to Marc Aramini* Thanks anyway. It has been some time I read the books and much of them alas went over my head. When are your books coming out? Op 7-3-2018 om 00:41 schreef Marc Aramini: > I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, > please) but here is my take on what he may or may not be talking > about: some time after Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a Vanished > Person who also calls himself Horn appears to speak to our narrator. > That's the only new speciation that might have anything to do with > Horn - the rest Roberts refers to are the false clues Wolfe is giving > us that Silkhorn might be inhumi: (light, doesn't have a good appetite > - is he truly a normal man with his ability to walk through the woods > without being touched? (yes, he has made a deal with the vanished > gods, who are trees) > > Having said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who has > just faced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either > psychologically retreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, is a > true amalgam of Horn and Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters in as the > Rajan of Gaon. When he sits under the tree at the end of On Blue's > Waters the majority of Horn's spirit goes into Babbie and becomes the > beast with three horns, then it is Silk in denial for the rest of the > book, Silk a man as he always was, until finally he is faced with the > truth with the passage invoking the death of Hyacinth in the writings > and has come home to a house that is not his. > > But hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest in > arguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might be > talking about. > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos > wrote: > > Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science > fiction writer. > > In his "The History of Science Fiction" he devotes a short chapter > to Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) > main thesis throughout the book: "Wolfe not only revisits many of > the conventions of 20th-century SF, he goes further back than > that, tapping into the deep roots of the genre, interrogating the > many ways in which notions of salvation are inflected by our much > broader materialist understanding of the cosmos."(page 439) > > After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: > "Seventeenth century SF". Central is the dialectic between matter, > spirit and technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe > contains, I believe, some errors. He says for instance:"Horn may > or may not, mutate? into a new form of life across the course of > the trilogy. "(page 438) Anybody ring a bell. I thought Silk was > Horn but didn't want to give him up because then he Horn would be > dead as they were sharing the same body. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *07 Mar 2018, 16:14 · in reply to Ab de Vos* I think my editor will have time to get volume 2 ready to go in May, but I am not sure. I haven't pressed because my pace on these last six essays has been glacial. You would think I would have the energy to just finish it .. but geez there's always something. I predict the weakest essay will be on An Evil Guest. I have adopted a more pedantic approach to these final longer essays. Sometimes pedantry is a gift. > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Ab de Vos wrote: > Thanks anyway. It has been some time I read the books and much of them > alas went over my head. > > When are your books coming out? > > Op 7-3-2018 om 00:41 schreef Marc Aramini: > > I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, please) > but here is my take on what he may or may not be talking about: some time > after Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a Vanished Person who also calls > himself Horn appears to speak to our narrator. That's the only new > speciation that might have anything to do with Horn - the rest Roberts > refers to are the false clues Wolfe is giving us that Silkhorn might be > inhumi: (light, doesn't have a good appetite - is he truly a normal man > with his ability to walk through the woods without being touched? (yes, he > has made a deal with the vanished gods, who are trees) > > Having said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who has just > faced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either psychologically > retreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, is a true amalgam of Horn > and Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters in as the Rajan of Gaon. When he > sits under the tree at the end of On Blue's Waters the majority of Horn's > spirit goes into Babbie and becomes the beast with three horns, then it is > Silk in denial for the rest of the book, Silk a man as he always was, until > finally he is faced with the truth with the passage invoking the death of > Hyacinth in the writings and has come home to a house that is not his. > > But hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest in > arguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might be talking > about. > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos wrote: >> Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science fiction >> writer. >> >> In his "The History of Science Fiction" he devotes a short chapter to >> Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his (Roberts) main thesis >> throughout the book: "Wolfe not only revisits many of the conventions of >> 20th-century SF, he goes further back than that, tapping into the deep >> roots of the genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of >> salvation are inflected by our much broader materialist understanding of >> the cosmos."(page 439) >> >> After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: >> "Seventeenth century SF". Central is the dialectic between matter, spirit >> and technology. Very interesting. His chapter on Wolfe contains, I believe, >> some errors. He says for instance:"Horn may or may not, mutate into a new >> form of life across the course of the trilogy. "(page 438) Anybody ring a >> bell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give him up because then >> he Horn would be dead as they were sharing the same body. >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Eric Bourland *07 Mar 2018, 16:20 · in reply to Marc Aramini* For what it's worth, An Evil Guest is one of my favorite of his books. For a few years maybe it was my favorite. I've got a whole disquisition about it, which inevitably prompts vigorous eye-rolling, so I'll spare you. ;-) Looking forward to vol. 2. Eric > On 3/7/2018 11:14 AM, Marc Aramini wrote: > I think my editor will have time to get volume 2 ready to go in May, > but I am not sure. I haven't pressed because my pace on these last six > essays has been glacial. You would think I would have the energy to > just finish it .. but geez there's always something. I predict the > weakest essay will be on An Evil Guest. I have adopted a more pedantic > approach to these final longer essays. Sometimes pedantry is a gift. > > On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Ab de Vos > wrote: > > Thanks anyway. It has been some time I read the books and much of > them alas went over my head. > > When are your books coming out? > > > Op 7-3-2018 om 00:41 schreef Marc Aramini: >> I don't want to start a round of Short Sun stuff (please, please, >> please) but here is my take on what he may or may not be talking >> about: some time after Horn falls into the pit on Blue, a >> Vanished Person who also calls himself Horn appears to speak to >> our narrator. That's the only new speciation that might have >> anything to do with Horn - the rest Roberts refers to are the >> false clues Wolfe is giving us that Silkhorn might be inhumi: >> (light, doesn't have a good appetite - is he truly a normal man >> with his ability to walk through the woods without being touched? >> (yes, he has made a deal with the vanished gods, who are trees) >> >> Having said that, Horn dies on Green, goes into Silk's body who >> has just faced Hyacinth's death on the whorl and has either >> psychologically retreated or mostly succeeded in killing himself, >> is a true amalgam of Horn and Silk as he writes On Blue's Waters >> in as the Rajan of Gaon. When he sits under the tree at the end >> of On Blue's Waters the majority of Horn's spirit goes into >> Babbie and becomes the beast with three horns, then it is Silk in >> denial for the rest of the book, Silk a man as he always was, >> until finally he is faced with the truth with the passage >> invoking the death of Hyacinth in the writings and has come home >> to a house that is not his. >> >> But hey anyone can believe what they want - I have zero interest >> in arguing this one at all. Just trying to address what he might >> be talking about. >> >> On Tue, Mar 6, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Ab de Vos > > wrote: >> >> Adam Roberts is a literature professor as well as a science >> fiction writer. >> >> In his "The History of Science Fiction" he devotes a short >> chapter to Wolfe which he concludes by relating Wolfe to his >> (Roberts) main thesis throughout the book: "Wolfe not only >> revisits many of the conventions of 20th-century SF, he goes >> further back than that, tapping into the deep roots of the >> genre, interrogating the many ways in which notions of >> salvation are inflected by our much broader materialist >> understanding of the cosmos."(page 439) >> >> After treating preliminaries his history starts in chapter 4: >> "Seventeenth century SF". Central is the dialectic between >> matter, spirit and technology. Very interesting. His chapter >> on Wolfe contains, I believe, some errors. He says for >> instance:"Horn may or may not, mutate? into a new form of >> life across the course of the trilogy. "(page 438) Anybody >> ring a bell. I thought Silk was Horn but didn't want to give >> him up because then he Horn would be dead as they were >> sharing the same body. >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Marc Aramini *07 Mar 2018, 16:37 · in reply to Eric Bourland* Eric, I wouldn't mind hearing it if you wouldn't mind being quoted by name, unless you didn't want it repeated. In which case I still wouldn't mind hearing it. Robert Pirkola wrote a very large draft of exegesis on it - I still haven't made up my mind on what to write about that one. I know that There Are Doors and The Ziggurat eventually revealed a pattern that pierced the unreliable third person which I feel is the least justified of Wolfe's techniques because it lacks a clear narrative reason save for hovering near its main characters flawed perceptions. --- ### Paul Rydeen *08 Mar 2018, 01:11 · in reply to Marc Aramini* Yes, let’s hear it! AEG is one of my favorites, too. From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Marc Aramini Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:37 AM --- ### Eric Bourland *08 Mar 2018, 03:34 · in reply to Paul Rydeen* An Evil Guest. Um, I'll try. This is a bumbling recounting from memory, of a book I have read several times but not in a few years. Maybe I'll make a list. * It's well-crafted. There's a lot going on, but GW gives us just enough to make sense of all the working parts. I can tell that he put in a lot of work to make this one make sense. I think I can see him choosing what information to include, and where to leave the clues. He always does that of course, but in this story I can see him doing so with a sort of cheerful merriment. And while I'm at it I'll add in a werewolf. Hee! And it will eat the guy. * Maybe I like this story because I can tell that GW had a lot of fun writing it. His joy is infectious. The reader always knows when you're having a good time, and when you're struggling, or if you're bored or stuck. When I read this book I get a dumb grin on my face. * Cassie. I just like her. Not in a I-have-a-crush kind of way. I respect how she managed herself in every jackpot she got thrown into. More about Cassie in a minute, because the eye-rolling usually starts when I start running my yap about how cool Cassie is. Hang on. * Gideon Chase. I like him. "The tiger has told them they are tiger food, you see." (While eating sour cabbage.) Chase is Wolfe . . . it took me a while to understand this. I think after I did understand, Chase made more sense to me. He's slightly sinister and we never really know about him. But also a magic man, and omnicompetent, but with those gifts comes uncertainty of intent. Chase is yet another GW character that gets a leg injury. So many GW characters have injured legs. Silk - Severian - Chase - probably a bunch more I am not thinking of. Crippled character usually = GW. It's a signal. There's a better way to say that. Like any writer, GW puts some of his own ideals into characters he cares about. And he sends a characteristic signal to inform the thoughtful reader, hey, if you're interested, there's a lot of me in this fellow. I'm telling you by means of the crippled leg. When Maugham wrote Of Human Bondage -- lovely, moving, wise book and I recommend it -- he gave his main character Philip a club foot. Some backstory: Maugham had a stutter. He wanted to identify Philip with himself, but he thought it might be hamhanded to just give Philip a stutter. So Philip got a club foot, as the kind of socially devastating discomfort and block that a stutter can be. A stutter really interferes with you, making even brief and simple, everyday interactions into events of hideous awkwardness, which in turn can lead to a lot of isolation. I would imagine that having an untreated club foot might mean, for some, a lot of isolation too. * But Maugham, and Wolfe too, are modest about such signals. You don't have to admit the author into your reading at all. The story still works. And this is neither here nor there. I just thought it was well-done. * I'm not up on the onomastics of Gideon. Bible something something. Chase is a wealthy name I associate with money but also, I suppose, with the hunt, the pursuit of game. * There's another wolf in the book that eats Scott Z, as retribution for Scott's being a horse's heinie. I can see GW writing that and smiling with satisfaction. It was not mean or especially gory. It happens offstage. It was a heartwarming, dignified assassination. Scott Z is gonna get the business, and it's gonna be a wolf that does the job . . . so I imagine Wolfe thinking. * He did Harold Klauser just right, in only a few pages. I regard this as just good writing, essential GW. Klauser has a lot of important information to tell Cassie, and us too. He does so in a way that makes me like him right away. He eats those little anchovy things, I forget what they are. Anchovy toast. There's a lot of gustatory content in this book. Fine restaurants and lots of good food. That's something that struck me right away. I thought: These characters know how to eat. A little detail that just . . . worked. * He did Madame Pavlatos just right. There's just enough. * The Storm God assassin was perfect and reminded me of an Ascian a little. Just how convinced she was. How certain. * The various police were sufficiently goonlike yet likable for the most part. * There are a bunch of little details in this book that just worked. A lesser writer would have bungled these. Cassie: Wolfe adores Cassie, just as Gideon Chase adores Cassie. And I think he respects her. Both fellows respect her. "Like eat?" "Much too much," Cassie told her darkly. That statement arrived at just the right time, later in the story. Given earlier, it's gratuitous. GW gives Cassie some time to earn this slightly funny and self-deprecating phrase. Just one way that he helped her be who she is, I think. My wife, whose judgment I trust, says the book is sexist in places, and Cassie is sometimes deprecated by the author. She gave examples, some of which I was blind to as I read. I reply with the usual arguments: she spears fish! Stands up to goons! Coped with the Storm God assassin! Takes a lot of initiative throughout the entire book! She's got a lot of pure bravery. And she really has a heart of gold. My wife says: her chief ambition is merely to be a star in a show. She is otherwise shallow and relatively powerless. The author does not respect Cassie, or women. Not really. The author can write about women but there is a subtle, deep chauvinism there. Would the author treat a male character in such a way? (I am paraphrasing, with customary clumsiness, the cogent thoughts of my wife, who has been a careful reader of thousands of books, including a few Wolfe books I have shared with her. When we discussed Cassie, she gave convincing examples, which I'm not relating here in any way nearly as convincing as her own words. I respect my wife as a reader. She is a wonderful wife, too. =) No, she does not read this Urth list, except for very rare occasions when I point out something to her.) Chauvinism in Wolfe is a difficult topic. And it's very much beyond the scope of this hastily banged-out little posting to Urth. Wolfe sometimes identifies women by hair color -- Mdm. Pavlatos is a rake-thin brunette, for example. Yeah, that's chauvinistic. It establishes women as ornamental. I do have a problem with that. I'm glad to discuss it. But I found Cassie very, very likable, esp at the end, when I think she showed her merit. Her heart was broken, but she acted with resolve and decency. She loved her king (Reis, whose name is king, and whose meaning in the story is king) with a love much more profound than her love for Chase. Yet she flies to meet Chase in the end, on Woldercan. I think she expended her beauty in order to obtain a craft that will convey her to Chase . . . and out of the story. She fought her way out, with great sacrifice and peril, but fair and square. I like to think about the things that Cassie wished for; what she actually got; what she got free of or escaped from; and what she was traveling to meet in the end. It's chauvinistic! says my lovely wife whom I adore. Wotta dame! I reply. Other notes: William Reis is the name of a character in another Wolfe story, I forget which one. GW gave the lovecraft stuff just enough time. Exactly enough. Anything less or more would have been ineffective. Few other writers today can do this. To have that degree of trust. There was a point in his career when Wolfe visibly allowed himself to relax and have a lot of fun. One result of that was An Evil Guest. This is only my two sleep-deprived cents. I am sure I am missing much more than a lot. I need to go back and read Marc's writeup. I might read the book again. Silk for cald?! Eric > On 3/7/2018 8:11 PM, Paul Rydeen wrote: > > Yes, let’s hear it!? AEG is one of my favorites, too. > > > *From:*Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] *On Behalf Of *Marc > Aramini > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:37 AM --- ### Paul Rydeen *08 Mar 2018, 21:47 · in reply to Eric Bourland* Thanks for sharing. This is one I’ll read again at some point. I like how Wolfe handled Cassie’s behavior changing after she makes her deal, and how Margaret just drops out of the plot. And how the ending leaves the reader having to figure out just a little bit, even if they’ll never dig into all the deeper stuff that Marc is so good at ferreting out. From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Eric Bourland Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 9:34 PM To: urth at lists.urth.net Subject: Re: (urth) Palgrave History of Science Fiction An Evil Guest. Um, I'll try. This is a bumbling recounting from memory, of a book I have read several times but not in a few years. Maybe I'll make a list. * It's well-crafted. There's a lot going on, but GW gives us just enough to make sense of all the working parts. I can tell that he put in a lot of work to make this one make sense. I think I can see him choosing what information to include, and where to leave the clues. He always does that of course, but in this story I can see him doing so with a sort of cheerful merriment. And while I'm at it I'll add in a werewolf. Hee! And it will eat the guy. * Maybe I like this story because I can tell that GW had a lot of fun writing it. His joy is infectious. The reader always knows when you're having a good time, and when you're struggling, or if you're bored or stuck. When I read this book I get a dumb grin on my face. * Cassie. I just like her. Not in a I-have-a-crush kind of way. I respect how she managed herself in every jackpot she got thrown into. More about Cassie in a minute, because the eye-rolling usually starts when I start running my yap about how cool Cassie is. Hang on. * Gideon Chase. I like him. "The tiger has told them they are tiger food, you see." (While eating sour cabbage.) Chase is Wolfe . . . it took me a while to understand this. I think after I did understand, Chase made more sense to me. He's slightly sinister and we never really know about him. But also a magic man, and omnicompetent, but with those gifts comes uncertainty of intent. Chase is yet another GW character that gets a leg injury. So many GW characters have injured legs. Silk - Severian - Chase - probably a bunch more I am not thinking of. Crippled character usually = GW. It's a signal. There's a better way to say that. Like any writer, GW puts some of his own ideals into characters he cares about. And he sends a characteristic signal to inform the thoughtful reader, hey, if you're interested, there's a lot of me in this fellow. I'm telling you by means of the crippled leg. When Maugham wrote Of Human Bondage -- lovely, moving, wise book and I recommend it -- he gave his main character Philip a club foot. Some backstory: Maugham had a stutter. He wanted to identify Philip with himself, but he thought it might be hamhanded to just give Philip a stutter. So Philip got a club foot, as the kind of socially devastating discomfort and block that a stutter can be. A stutter really interferes with you, making even brief and simple, everyday interactions into events of hideous awkwardness, which in turn can lead to a lot of isolation. I would imagine that having an untreated club foot might mean, for some, a lot of isolation too. * But Maugham, and Wolfe too, are modest about such signals. You don't have to admit the author into your reading at all. The story still works. And this is neither here nor there. I just thought it was well-done. * I'm not up on the onomastics of Gideon. Bible something something. Chase is a wealthy name I associate with money but also, I suppose, with the hunt, the pursuit of game. * There's another wolf in the book that eats Scott Z, as retribution for Scott's being a horse's heinie. I can see GW writing that and smiling with satisfaction. It was not mean or especially gory. It happens offstage. It was a heartwarming, dignified assassination. Scott Z is gonna get the business, and it's gonna be a wolf that does the job . . . so I imagine Wolfe thinking. * He did Harold Klauser just right, in only a few pages. I regard this as just good writing, essential GW. Klauser has a lot of important information to tell Cassie, and us too. He does so in a way that makes me like him right away. He eats those little anchovy things, I forget what they are. Anchovy toast. There's a lot of gustatory content in this book. Fine restaurants and lots of good food. That's something that struck me right away. I thought: These characters know how to eat. A little detail that just . . . worked. * He did Madame Pavlatos just right. There's just enough. * The Storm God assassin was perfect and reminded me of an Ascian a little. Just how convinced she was. How certain. * The various police were sufficiently goonlike yet likable for the most part. * There are a bunch of little details in this book that just worked. A lesser writer would have bungled these. Cassie: Wolfe adores Cassie, just as Gideon Chase adores Cassie. And I think he respects her. Both fellows respect her. "Like eat?" "Much too much," Cassie told her darkly. That statement arrived at just the right time, later in the story. Given earlier, it's gratuitous. GW gives Cassie some time to earn this slightly funny and self-deprecating phrase. Just one way that he helped her be who she is, I think. My wife, whose judgment I trust, says the book is sexist in places, and Cassie is sometimes deprecated by the author. She gave examples, some of which I was blind to as I read. I reply with the usual arguments: she spears fish! Stands up to goons! Coped with the Storm God assassin! Takes a lot of initiative throughout the entire book! She's got a lot of pure bravery. And she really has a heart of gold. My wife says: her chief ambition is merely to be a star in a show. She is otherwise shallow and relatively powerless. The author does not respect Cassie, or women. Not really. The author can write about women but there is a subtle, deep chauvinism there. Would the author treat a male character in such a way? (I am paraphrasing, with customary clumsiness, the cogent thoughts of my wife, who has been a careful reader of thousands of books, including a few Wolfe books I have shared with her. When we discussed Cassie, she gave convincing examples, which I'm not relating here in any way nearly as convincing as her own words. I respect my wife as a reader. She is a wonderful wife, too. =) No, she does not read this Urth list, except for very rare occasions when I point out something to her.) Chauvinism in Wolfe is a difficult topic. And it's very much beyond the scope of this hastily banged-out little posting to Urth. Wolfe sometimes identifies women by hair color -- Mdm. Pavlatos is a rake-thin brunette, for example. Yeah, that's chauvinistic. It establishes women as ornamental. I do have a problem with that. I'm glad to discuss it. But I found Cassie very, very likable, esp at the end, when I think she showed her merit. Her heart was broken, but she acted with resolve and decency. She loved her king (Reis, whose name is king, and whose meaning in the story is king) with a love much more profound than her love for Chase. Yet she flies to meet Chase in the end, on Woldercan. I think she expended her beauty in order to obtain a craft that will convey her to Chase . . . and out of the story. She fought her way out, with great sacrifice and peril, but fair and square. I like to think about the things that Cassie wished for; what she actually got; what she got free of or escaped from; and what she was traveling to meet in the end. It's chauvinistic! says my lovely wife whom I adore. Wotta dame! I reply. Other notes: William Reis is the name of a character in another Wolfe story, I forget which one. GW gave the lovecraft stuff just enough time. Exactly enough. Anything less or more would have been ineffective. Few other writers today can do this. To have that degree of trust. There was a point in his career when Wolfe visibly allowed himself to relax and have a lot of fun. One result of that was An Evil Guest. This is only my two sleep-deprived cents. I am sure I am missing much more than a lot. I need to go back and read Marc's writeup. I might read the book again. Silk for cald?! Eric On 3/7/2018 8:11 PM, Paul Rydeen wrote: Yes, let’s hear it! AEG is one of my favorites, too. From: Urth [mailto:urth-bounces at lists.urth.net] On Behalf Of Marc Aramini Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2018 10:37 AM ---